USTA league discourages improvement.

[J011yroger]

What can be done to encourage people to play more and want to get better?

What if instead of nationals for every level, they capped progression by level.

2.5: Local league only, this is just to learn how to compete and be on a team. If you are #1 out of the teams you play, congrats, you are done.

3.0: Local league playoff, top 2 or 4 teams have a playoff match or weekend to determine winner.

3.5: District playoff, might be the same as local playoff depending on number of teams.

4.0: Regional playoff, winners of each district play each other to be the region champion.

4.5: Sectionals, 4.5s go to sectionals. If you win your section, it's great success, see you next year.

5.0: Nationals, I guarantee if only 5.0s went to nationals there would be more 5.0 teams.

J

 

[schmke]

Interesting idea. But I fear that while it might be good for creating an incentive for 5.0s to play and 4.5s to get to 5.0, it would remove one of the incentives for all of the other levels.

Even if it doubles the 5.0 teams there are, if you lose just 10% at each of the other levels there is an overall decrease in participation so it is unlikely the USTA would go for it.

 

[J011yroger]

Interesting idea. But I fear that while it might be good for creating an incentive for 5.0s to play and 4.5s to get to 5.0, it would remove one of the incentives for all of the other levels.

Even if it doubles the 5.0 teams there are, if you lose just 10% at each of the other levels there is an overall decrease in participation so it is unlikely the USTA would go for it.

But the lower levels would have to make a bigger deal out of their championships.

J

 

[loosegroove]

This might be all good if there was an assured linear progression through the ratings with time and effort. But as you know, some of us are destined 3.0 for life!

 

[schmke]

But the lower levels would have to make a bigger deal out of their championships.

J

Yeah, I get it, but how big a deal can you make about local playoffs if there is nothing after that. And 90+% of players can't get to 5.0 even if there is an incentive to get there, so for these Nationals is simply out of reach.

If the reports I do for Nationals teams are any indication, the vast majority of interest in Nationals is at the 3.0-4.5 levels as well. That may just mean once you get to 5.0 it is "real" tennis and shenanigans over scouting and line-ups is not important.

 

[loosegroove]

Interesting idea. But I fear that while it might be good for creating an incentive for 5.0s to play and 4.5s to get to 5.0, it would remove one of the incentives for all of the other levels.

Even if it doubles the 5.0 teams there are, if you lose just 10% at each of the other levels there is an overall decrease in participation so it is unlikely the USTA would go for it.

Not to mention that you lose all the revenue for the extended post seasons of all the lower levels.

 

[schmke]

While I pointed out reasons why it won't happen, I do agree that the very notion of having level based nationals does discourage improvement. Instead it encourages being near the top of arbitrary levels. If someone is focused on Nationals, they likely want to improve, but only so much.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

What can be done to encourage people to play more and want to get better?

What if instead of nationals for every level, they capped progression by level.

2.5: Local league only, this is just to learn how to compete and be on a team. If you are #1 out of the teams you play, congrats, you are done.

3.0: Local league playoff, top 2 or 4 teams have a playoff match or weekend to determine winner.

3.5: District playoff, might be the same as local playoff depending on number of teams.

4.0: Regional playoff, winners of each district play each other to be the region champion.

4.5: Sectionals, 4.5s go to sectionals. If you win your section, it's great success, see you next year.

5.0: Nationals, I guarantee if only 5.0s went to nationals there would be more 5.0 teams.

J

Even in tennis mecca SoCal, my area has maybe 2 teams in the 5.0 Mens and maybe they can scrape together 2 teams for 10.0 MXDs.

The 5.0s I know aren't eager to play USTA Nationals; they've got other venues for play. And maybe USTA Nationals is a pale reflection of their college days?

And I think USTA wants to encourage people to play more [ie more revenue] but not necessarily improve [cui bono [who benefits]?].

Then again, I don't care much about Nationals [never been] and the chance of going to Nationals wouldn't be enough to motivate me to get bumped to 5.0 [assuming that was even realistic].

 

[WYK]

Even in tennis mecca SoCal, my area has maybe 2 teams in the 5.0 Mens and maybe they can scrape together 2 teams for 10.0 MXDs.

The 5.0s I know aren't eager to play USTA Nationals; they've got other venues for play. And maybe USTA Nationals is a pale reflection of their college days?

And I think USTA wants to encourage people to play more [ie more revenue] but not necessarily improve [cui bono [who benefits]?].

Then again, I don't care much about Nationals [never been] and the chance of going to Nationals wouldn't be enough to motivate me to get bumped to 5.0 [assuming that was even realistic].

Very good points. We don't really have USTA ratings here, only ITF, so I am extrapolating the fact they are former college players - most 5.0's in Europe compete in open competitions.
Back when I was stateside, I saw the same there - usually a club, interclub, or organizational open event was popular amongst former college players.
These are highly charged, very popular events that will remind most players of college tennis(though, admittedly less unruly, and less bad calls usually).
The prizes are much better, and the notoriety for having won is much better, especially since they are your peers and friends and acquaintances.
Your name is now on the trophy roster of the organization for eternity. Your match results sent out to all club members.
Especially in Europe where some clubs are over a hundred years old - it's a form of immortality. My local was founded in 1894.
I just do not see any reason to attend a USTA 5.0 event when there are much better options out there.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

You are missing an important factor. Recreational tennis is not all about improvement. It’s about fun. Competing at your level for championships is fun. There is not infinite linear progression, regardless of how hard you are trying to improve. Some people are not great athletes and will never be a 4.0 much less a 5.0. Let them have a championship. Let them have the ratings drama, who gets bumped drama, etc. It’s fun. Adult rec tennis is not a junior academy. Don’t treat it the same.

 

[silverwyvern4]

While I pointed out reasons why it won't happen, I do agree that the very notion of having level based nationals does discourage improvement. Instead it encourages being near the top of arbitrary levels. If someone is focused on Nationals, they likely want to improve, but only so much.

Actually, people focused on nationals will want to keep improving their skills, just not improving their score margins, to avoid bump.

 

[Chalkdust]

Seems attractive on the surface, but then once you dig deeper, turns out to be a bad idea.

There are two broad categories of USTA players.

One category genuinely wants to improve and play the best tennis they can. Most players in this category could care less about Nationals etc. For them, league is just a good way to get competitive matches in order to continue improving. So they are not going to be influenced much one way or the other by changes to Nationals format, eligibility, etc. They just want to play.

The second category prioritizes the glory of winning, regardless of actual playing level. Most players in this category would prefer to be at the top of an arbitrary level cut off, rather than improve to an average at the next level. Reducing their playoff options is just going to cause them to stop playing league.

I happen to think that the first category is much larger than the second. Maybe 80% / 20%.
But since the league demand curve for the second category is much more elastic than for the first, it's the second category that mostly drives USTA Nationals policy.
So, this idea is a non-starter.

 

[J011yroger]

I know you guys feel like your $30 here and there matters but I highly doubt that the usta makes money off sectionals or nationals.

J

 

[darkhorse]

This is probably not true everywhere, but my observation in adult rec sports (not just tennis) is that the higher the level, the less postseason/championships matter. The OP's idea makes sense but I feel that a lot of the 5.0 players wouldn't really care about nationals.

I would like to see a sort of "intersectional" playoff before nationals, as a section like mine (Northern) really has no shot at doing well at Nationals. But we could have a playoff between some of the other sections around us (Mid West, MO Valley), then the winner of that goes to nationals.

 

[raftervolley]

I played a guy yesterday who was better than me, and Iḿ a 4.5 player who has won several USTA 4.5 singles tournaments. He asked me to join his 3.5 USTA team to play 2nd singles.

This guy is better than me and he plays on a 3.5 team? Somebody needs to explain this to me.

 

[LOBALOT]

I don't think league tennis discourages improvement as players and teams want to do better. I think it discourages rating improvement (i.e. getting bumped up).

Frankly, if this pandemic taught me anything it is why I play tennis which is for the enjoyment and social aspects of the sport. I much prefer playing with my pals 3-4 times a week than USTA. I am captaining 4 teams this year and every year it gets harder to motivate myself to keep doing it and participating when instead I can enjoy a hit and have my pals over to hang out in the back yard after.

 

[ptuanminh]

I think most usta league players don't care too much about improvement. Nationals seem to be a bad idea though. Who wants to fly across the country to play a couple matches against random ppl?

 

[travlerajm]

You are missing an important factor. Recreational tennis is not all about improvement. It’s about fun. Competing at your level for championships is fun. There is not infinite linear progression, regardless of how hard you are trying to improve. Some people are not great athletes and will never be a 4.0 much less a 5.0. Let them have a championship. Let them have the ratings drama, who gets bumped drama, etc. It’s fun. Adult rec tennis is not a junior academy. Don’t treat it the same.

My little bro after his 3.5 team advanced to nationals:
“This is my superbowl!”

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I played a guy yesterday who was better than me, and Iḿ a 4.5 player who has won several USTA 4.5 singles tournaments. He asked me to join his 3.5 USTA team to play 2nd singles.

This guy is better than me and he plays on a 3.5 team? Somebody needs to explain this to me.

The level of play in tournaments is much lower than league. Tournaments mostly have low participation and lots of guys playing up to get experience. This why you see a disconnect. A 3.5 league player is not what you imagine them to be, and they are certainly not what the example on the USTA site depicts. The NTRP levels are broad groups where the borders are determined by playing against each other. This is different than “if your stones look nice then you are a 4.5”. It doesn’t work that way.

A USTA league 4.5 is likely just a lot better than you, despite your tournament record.

 

[travlerajm]

Actually, people focused on nationals will want to keep improving their skills, just not improving their score margins, to avoid bump.

Either that, or focusing on winning the matches that matter and losing the ones that don’t?

 

[Moveforwardalways]

For instance, in USTA league 4.5 I have seen everything from very good 4.0’s who got bumped up to former Davis Cup players for smaller countries who were able to self rate at 4.5. It is not just “can hit consistent depth off forehand and backhand sides” or whatever the USTA official description says.

 

[LOBALOT]

The level of play in tournaments is much lower than league. Tournaments mostly have low participation and lots of guys playing up to get experience. This why you see a disconnect. A 3.5 league player is not what you imagine them to be, and they are certainly not what the example on the USTA site depicts. The NTRP levels are broad groups where the borders are determined by playing against each other. This is different than “if your stones look nice then you are a 4.5”. It doesn’t work that way.

A USTA league 4.5 is likely just a lot better than you, despite your tournament record.

100% and from what I see "3.5" is the broadest range of skill at least how USTA rates the players. Even now in 40+ the level of play is getting crazy good.

When they first came out with 40+ we could basically sleep walk to sectionals. Last year we were crushed in districts. Granted I was missing a lot of guys but still we were utterly destroyed.

 

[travlerajm]

I think most usta league players don't care too much about improvement. Nationals seem to be a bad idea though. Who wants to fly across the country to play a couple matches against random ppl?

You don’t need usta nationals to fly across the country to play a couple of matches against random people. I do it all the time.

 

[travlerajm]

The level of play in tournaments is much lower than league. Tournaments mostly have low participation and lots of guys playing up to get experience. This why you see a disconnect. A 3.5 league player is not what you imagine them to be, and they are certainly not what the example on the USTA site depicts. The NTRP levels are broad groups where the borders are determined by playing against each other. This is different than “if your stones look nice then you are a 4.5”. It doesn’t work that way.

A USTA league 4.5 is likely just a lot better than you, despite your tournament record.

This. A guy who pushes his way to winning record in 4.0 league would also dominate a typical 4.5 tourney draw.

 

[travlerajm]

For instance, in USTA league 4.5 I have seen everything from very good 4.0’s who got bumped up to former Davis Cup players for smaller countries who were able to self rate at 4.5. It is not just “can hit consistent depth off forehand and backhand sides” or whatever the USTA official description says.

I once played a 4.5 usta league doubles match against a guy who 15 years earlier was a 2-time state high school singles champ who went to a power 5 D1 school on a full-ride tennis scholarship.

He seemed quite embarrassed when I told him pre-match that I remembered him from high school.

 

[travlerajm]

I think there are better ways to encourage improvement than by taking away glory carrots.

For example, how about a coed match format where 2 of 7 slots have be filled by women. Some guys get really motivated to improve if they know the ladies are paying attention.

 

[nyta2]

I know you guys feel like your $30 here and there matters but I highly doubt that the usta makes money off sectionals or nationals.

J

seems like they are losing money on sectionals & nationals... we're not paying additional to usta to participate.

 

[darkhorse]

They tried that, it was a "social" league but nobody signed up for it, my section didn't even offer it.

I think there are better ways to encourage improvement than by taking away glory carrots

For example, how about a coed match format where 2 of 7 slots have be filled by women. Some guys get really motivated to improve if they know the ladies are paying attention

 

[PFG1]

Once this thread has been hashed out, can we then discuss why the USTA discourages individual play?

Fast 4 format at the national tournament? Are you kidding me? Gross.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

What can be done to encourage people to play more and want to get better?

What if instead of nationals for every level, they capped progression by level.

2.5: Local league only, this is just to learn how to compete and be on a team. If you are #1 out of the teams you play, congrats, you are done.

3.0: Local league playoff, top 2 or 4 teams have a playoff match or weekend to determine winner.

3.5: District playoff, might be the same as local playoff depending on number of teams.

4.0: Regional playoff, winners of each district play each other to be the region champion.

4.5: Sectionals, 4.5s go to sectionals. If you win your section, it's great success, see you next year.

5.0: Nationals, I guarantee if only 5.0s went to nationals there would be more 5.0 teams.

J

Someone at USTA has this job but it's only "What can be done to encourage people to play more....nothing else". They do want people to improve enough from beginner to enjoy the sport. As you know many people want to get better but don't want to be rated higher . It has to become socially awkward to sandbag and win out of level and that's something that just won't happen easily.

You are missing an important factor. Recreational tennis is not all about improvement. It’s about fun. Competing at your level for championships is fun. There is not infinite linear progression, regardless of how hard you are trying to improve. Some people are not great athletes and will never be a 4.0 much less a 5.0. Let them have a championship. Let them have the ratings drama, who gets bumped drama, etc. It’s fun. Adult rec tennis is not a junior academy. Don’t treat it the same.

Fun: From what I see fun is going to regionals and nationals regardless of level. I agree with your general idea, but I've seen a lot more tennis and tennis players now in more areas of the country, they crave the bag tags that say sectionals, they wear their USTA sectionals clothing out on the weekends to bars and restaurants, that's what they enjoy, tennis is their main enjoyment but a very close second is any kind of postseason play . I've been around when they are brainstorming local tournaments that give you an easy free pass to the fast 4 nationals, basically trying to find a way to get there without playing much . They enjoy walking onto the court and knowing they will probably win, they do not seek nor enjoy close challenging matches. When they get bumped up and are more or less second string on a team with no post season prospects they can gravitate to pickleball for trophies or post season glory. That or they hope to lose enough to be bumped back down. Their pride is the post season at any level , they have zero pride in moving up in rating. The work required to improve enough to go to post season play at a higher level is not attractive to them, they'd accept a bump down to 2.5 if they could and proudly hoist a nationals trophy.

There are two broad categories of USTA players.

One category genuinely wants to improve and play the best tennis they can. Most players in this category could care less about Nationals etc. For them, league is just a good way to get competitive matches in order to continue improving. So they are not going to be influenced much one way or the other by changes to Nationals format, eligibility, etc. They just want to play.

The second category prioritizes the glory of winning, regardless of actual playing level. Most players in this category would prefer to be at the top of an arbitrary level cut off, rather than improve to an average at the next level. Reducing their playoff options is just going to cause them to stop playing league.

I happen to think that the first category is much larger than the second. Maybe 80% / 20%.
But since the league demand curve for the second category is much more elastic than for the first, it's the second category that mostly drives USTA Nationals policy.
So, this idea is a non-starter.

Well put, I kind of repeated what you wrote in my word salad above.

 

[travlerajm]

They tried that, it was a "social" league but nobody signed up for it, my section didn't even offer it.

Marketing fail.

 

[am1899]

IME the players making up the lower levels seem more excited about qualifying for and going to a nationals tournament than players in the 4.5+ crowd anyway. Don’t know that taking that off the table for the lower ratings will be popular.

For me one thing USTA really needs to address is better recognition of improvement of (or “out of level”) players. If you and/or your team make the playoffs every year, year after year and yet you don’t get bumped up…that is a big part of this problem IMO. And i am one of those players, so I guess I’m part of the problem not the solution. I guess I could request a rating bump on my own, but why should I have to take matters into my own hands?

 

[LOBALOT]

IME the players making up the lower levels seem more excited about qualifying for and going to a nationals tournament than players in the 4.5+ crowd anyway. Don’t know that taking that off the table for the lower ratings will be popular.

For me one thing USTA really needs to address is better recognition of improvement of (or “out of level”) players. If you and/or your team make the playoffs every year, year after year and yet you don’t get bumped up…that is a big part of this problem IMO. And i am one of those players, so I guess I’m part of the problem not the solution. I guess I could request a rating bump on my own, but why should I have to take matters into my own hands?

But what if you don't improve?

I have had my same cruddy lack of tennis skills forever.

 

[am1899]

But what if you don't improve?

I have had my same cruddy lack of tennis skills forever.

Find a good coach and take some lessons.

 

[nyta2]

they could just focus on awarding people for getting bumped... like a plaque, gift cert, etc... maybe even most improved, etc... current ntrp is just used to bucket (eg. bell distribution curve), rather than a number representing your actual skill level.
or focus on team performance by age (by decade?)
but doing things by ntrpLevel probably maximizes participation, which is the ultimate goal of usta... i guess we're all suckers for participation trophies

 

[Nostradamus]

What can be done to encourage people to play more and want to get better?

What if instead of nationals for every level, they capped progression by level.

2.5: Local league only, this is just to learn how to compete and be on a team. If you are #1 out of the teams you play, congrats, you are done.

3.0: Local league playoff, top 2 or 4 teams have a playoff match or weekend to determine winner.

3.5: District playoff, might be the same as local playoff depending on number of teams.

4.0: Regional playoff, winners of each district play each other to be the region champion.

4.5: Sectionals, 4.5s go to sectionals. If you win your section, it's great success, see you next year.

5.0: Nationals, I guarantee if only 5.0s went to nationals there would be more 5.0 teams.

J

Yes, i agree completely we need to somehow encourage players to get better. There is this False belief that if you pass 40 , you are done improving, this is totally false. and this is unfortunately also the belief of 99.9 % of the local pros that run the team Drills and team practices. SO they don't try to improve but just get some workout in and maybe just get grooved on your favorite shots...... while ignoring improving the weaknesses which is the MOST important aspect of playing and practicing tennis.

 

[sureshs]

Yes, i agree completely we need to somehow encourage players to get better. There is this False belief that if you pass 40 , you are done improving, this is totally false.

Correct. I started tennis when I was 39 and see where I am today

 

[Nostradamus]

Correct. I started tennis when I was 39 and see where I am today

You are a good 3.5 level, suresh, you can get to good 4.0 level if you keep working at your tennis and keep improving your weaknesses

 

[travlerajm]

IME the players making up the lower levels seem more excited about qualifying for and going to a nationals tournament than players in the 4.5+ crowd anyway. Don’t know that taking that off the table for the lower ratings will be popular.

For me one thing USTA really needs to address is better recognition of improvement of (or “out of level”) players. If you and/or your team make the playoffs every year, year after year and yet you don’t get bumped up…that is a big part of this problem IMO. And i am one of those players, so I guess I’m part of the problem not the solution. I guess I could request a rating bump on my own, but why should I have to take matters into my own hands?

The usta rating algorithm is kind of sticky. It’s pretty easy to stay near the top of your level band simply by playing only a handful of matches every year.

 

[LOBALOT]

Find a good coach and take some lessons.

I agree!

Seriously there are many players like you and me that don't move up and the higher the NTRP the harder it is to move up.

 

[Nostradamus]

The usta rating algorithm is kind of sticky. It’s pretty easy to stay near the top of your level band simply by playing only a handful of matches every year.

i agree. i also seen more 4.0 guys moving up to 4.5 level and same for 3.5 guys moving into 4.5 level. Some of the guys i know in 4.5 dont' like this but i am all for it. I want to see guys improve and play better and that's all part of fun in tennis even at the amateur levels where on most part we are just playing for fun.

 

[PFG1]

i agree. i also seen more 4.0 guys moving up to 4.5 level and same for 3.5 guys moving into 4.5 level. Some of the guys i know in 4.5 dont' like this but i am all for it. I want to see guys improve and play better and that's all part of fun in tennis even at the amateur levels where on most part we are just playing for fun.

The USTA needs to take the top 1/2 of all 4.5 guys and say..."Hey congrats, you are now all 5.0. Enjoy!" Its the only way to open up the 4.5s, IMO. So many 4.5s drag their feet bc they know, if they get bumped, there is nothing else. 5.0 doesn't exist, and a 4.5 simply isn't competitive at the open level.

IMO, the lack of a volume of 5.0 players is what creates the 4.5 sandbagging.

 

[travlerajm]

The USTA needs to take the top 1/2 of all 4.5 guys and say..."Hey congrats, you are now all 5.0. Enjoy!" Its the only way to open up the 4.5s, IMO. So many 4.5s drag their feet bc they know, if they get bumped, there is nothing else. 5.0 doesn't exist, and a 4.5 simply isn't competitive at the open level.

IMO, the lack of a volume of 5.0 players is what creates the 4.5 sandbagging.

I agree.

 

[socallefty]

I have my own proposal to blow up the system so that we don’t have the hilarious scenario of low-level players walking around saying they are a 3.5 or 4.0 national champion while they won’t be able to win one or two matches at their club’s Open tournament.

The USTA has an impossible job to set and enforce rules to run NTRP-level leagues that allow self-rates and appeals. At the end of the day, even the coaches and players who win Nationals at different levels know that it does not mean much in terms of bragging rights to win 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 etc. titles as it usually is a National title for players who couldn’t win an Open tennis tournament at their local club. I have a suggestion - BLOW UP the entire system!

Ratings-based leagues are good at the local (metro/county) level to give people a chance to play same-level players, but giving out national champion titles for different NTRP rec levels etc. seems like folly to me. So, have NTRP-based leagues for players to play in local leagues, but scrap Sectionals and Nationals.

NTRP already runs age group Open singles tournaments for singles and then the top ranked players make it to Nationals where they get a chance to win Open singles tournaments for age groups (under 30,under 35, under 40, under 45 etc.). Those national titles mean something prestigious as winning the Open title for your age group means you are the best player who participated in USTA singles tournaments for your age group.

Why don’t they do the same for doubles teams - run local tournaments by age group and then have the best ranked doubles teams compete in a National Open doubles tournament by age group. It would mean something special to be the best Mens Doubles Team for the 45 age group, 50 age group etc.

Another option is that they run these Open local/sectional rounds in team format (3 lines) by age group rather than individual NTRP levels and then the Sectional winning teams go to Nationals to compete in the National Open age group divisions. In both these National formats, no one has to worry about artificial NTRP rating Divisions. They just need a good system to check birth certificates

 

[sureshs]

You are a good 3.5 level, suresh, you can get to good 4.0 level if you keep working at your tennis and keep improving your weaknesses

I will give you $100 if you can improve my serve with a Zoom consultation

 

[johnmccabe]

I think 3.0 is bad. Once you get into 3.5 team, there are enough difference in skill levels for someone to improve

The key about improvement is the player has to prioritize improving in match situation, instead of focusing on winning and rating.

 

[johnmccabe]

@socallefty I can't send you messages anymore. did I piiiisssss you off and got blocked without knowing?

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I suppose if you work in the tennis industry, you want to feel it is important. And that people should take it seriously and only try to improve. But Lol at that. It’s a hobby. Adults play for fun. “Lack of practice” is not the reason most adults are 3.5.

What you don’t understand is that 3.5’s already know there is no glory in bragging to the general public about being 3.5 state champions. They don’t care though. The process of putting a team together to make a run at a league championship against players who are about the same as you is actually pretty fun, and comes along with a lot of making new friends and bonding. State and national championship trips are really fun times to hang out with your friends united by a common goal.

 

[raftervolley]

Just to clarify, I have played on several usta 4.5 leagues, played singles, and always had a winning record.

 

[raftervolley]

My point is that most people place themselves down levels just so they can win. I join to play against other players who are at or above my level. I enjoy the competition win or lose.