USTA league discourages improvement.

[LOBALOT]

I suppose if you work in the tennis industry, you want to feel it is important. And that people should take it seriously and only try to improve. But Lol at that. It’s a hobby. Adults play for fun. “Lack of practice” is not the reason most adults are 3.5.

What you don’t understand is that 3.5’s already know there is no glory in bragging to the general public about being 3.5 state champions. They don’t care though. The process of putting a team together to make a run at a league championship against players who are about the same as you is actually pretty fun, and comes along with a lot of making new friends and bonding. State and national championship trips are really fun times to hang out with your friends united by a common goal.

Man, when my teams have made it to sectionals I am not sure how we got out there for our matches the next morning as we shut down the hotel bar where the teams all stayed.

Maybe that explains why we never advance although we weren't the only teams down there... In fact they all were!

 

[travlerajm]

Man, when my teams have made it to sectionals I am not sure how we got out there for our matches the next morning as we shut down the hotel bar where the teams all stayed.

Maybe that explains why we never advance although we weren't the only teams down there... In fact they all were!

Just think how good those sandbagging teams that did advance would be if they weren’t joining you in shutting down the hotel bar.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Let’s say a guy can get on court 3 or 4 matches in a season at 4.0, due to his captain not playing him because he is a lower 4.0. And those matches are mostly blow out losses but maybe he gets a set here and there. Then the tennis experience is just.. well… over.

Or… he could play on a 3.5 super team, be on court every match, get the experience of winning and bonding with friends, going to regionals, hitting hotel bars with friends, talking trash about guys getting DQ’d, then going to sectionals and repeating, etc.

Which should he pick? It’s obvious. Now you are suggesting no post season at all for 3.5? Lol. Tennis is already not popular. Do you want to kill interest altogether?

 

[esgee48]

can enjoy a hit and have my pals over to hang out in the back yard after.

It's the beer, wine and BBQ afterwards. Only downside is sometimes the GFs or SOs are also there. <Gonna go hide in my Man Cave.>

 

[ChaelAZ]

What can be done to encourage people to play more and want to get better?

What if instead of nationals for every level, they capped progression by level.

2.5: Local league only, this is just to learn how to compete and be on a team. If you are #1 out of the teams you play, congrats, you are done.

3.0: Local league playoff, top 2 or 4 teams have a playoff match or weekend to determine winner.

3.5: District playoff, might be the same as local playoff depending on number of teams.

4.0: Regional playoff, winners of each district play each other to be the region champion.

4.5: Sectionals, 4.5s go to sectionals. If you win your section, it's great success, see you next year.

5.0: Nationals, I guarantee if only 5.0s went to nationals there would be more 5.0 teams.

J

That would kill the USTA’s $300 million a year of revenue down considerably. I like the idea of further requirements being set for teams to compete in Nationals, but still think all levels competing for Nationals makes sense. I dunno.

And honestly, that wouldn’t foster anyone in lower brackets to improve. Probably just be 4.5’s trying to say the made it to 5.0.

 

[jm1980]

What can be done to encourage people to play more and want to get better?

What if instead of nationals for every level, they capped progression by level.

2.5: Local league only, this is just to learn how to compete and be on a team. If you are #1 out of the teams you play, congrats, you are done.

3.0: Local league playoff, top 2 or 4 teams have a playoff match or weekend to determine winner.

3.5: District playoff, might be the same as local playoff depending on number of teams.

4.0: Regional playoff, winners of each district play each other to be the region champion.

4.5: Sectionals, 4.5s go to sectionals. If you win your section, it's great success, see you next year.

5.0: Nationals, I guarantee if only 5.0s went to nationals there would be more 5.0 teams.

J

But Nationals help ensure the levels stay consistent across the country (as best as possible). Everyone in USTA leagues is connected by a few degrees of separation.

Let's say Albert, a 3.5 from California plays a local league match against Bob, who goes to 3.5 Nationals. At Nationals, Bob plays Charlie from Virginia. With the results, we can make some reasonable assumptions on how Albert would fare against Charlie, as well as Charlie's opponents, like David from Virginia. Albert and David are only three degrees of separation away, despite playing in completely different parts of the country

If you remove Nationals for levels below 5.0, this would ensure more than 99% of league players are almost entirely disconnected, leading to a ratings drift where 3.0 in one place could be the same as 4.0 elsewhere, and the USTA would be none the wiser.

 

[socallefty]

@socallefty I can't send you messages anymore. did I piiiisssss you off and got blocked without knowing?

No, I switched off the option to send me private messages. Got a few weird messages.

Plus I always tell you to get a real life coach and stop trying to get free online coaching!

 

[johnmccabe]

No, I switched off the option to send me private messages. Got a few weird messages.

Plus I always tell you to get a real life coach and stop trying to get free online coaching!

I have a real coach and always still seek input wherever I can, online or offline, hitting partner or match opponents, as long as I think they know what they are talking about.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

But Nationals help ensure the levels stay consistent across the country (as best as possible). Everyone in USTA leagues is connected by a few degrees of separation.

Let's say Albert, a 3.5 from California plays a local league match against Bob, who goes to 3.5 Nationals. At Nationals, Bob plays Charlie from Virginia. With the results, we can make some reasonable assumptions on how Albert would fare against Charlie, as well as Charlie's opponents, like David from Virginia. Albert and David are only two degrees of separation away, despite playing in completely different parts of the country

If you remove Nationals for levels below 5.0, this would ensure more than 99% of league players are almost entirely disconnected, leading to a ratings drift where 3.0 in one place could be the same as 4.0 elsewhere, and the USTA would be none the wiser.

If it "helps" I can't imagine how much more different the levels in different parts of the country would be without nationals, there are huge differences in actual ability at the same numerical rating in different parts of the country.

 

[Creighton]

The OP is right. In the years I'm at the top of my level I get so afraid of losing that I can play some terrible tennis.

The years I'm at the bottom of a level are the most fun because I can just play tennis.

 

[Creighton]

If it "helps" I can't imagine how much more different the levels in different parts of the country would be without nationals, there are huge differences in actual ability at the same numerical rating in different parts of the country.

I was honestly amazed at the difference in quality between Southern and Middle States at 4.0.

But Nationals help ensure the levels stay consistent across the country (as best as possible). Everyone in USTA leagues is connected by a few degrees of separation.

Let's say Albert, a 3.5 from California plays a local league match against Bob, who goes to 3.5 Nationals. At Nationals, Bob plays Charlie from Virginia. With the results, we can make some reasonable assumptions on how Albert would fare against Charlie, as well as Charlie's opponents, like David from Virginia. Albert and David are only two degrees of separation away, despite playing in completely different parts of the country

If you remove Nationals for levels below 5.0, this would ensure more than 99% of league players are almost entirely disconnected, leading to a ratings drift where 3.0 in one place could be the same as 4.0 elsewhere, and the USTA would be none the wise

The problem of course is almost everyone at nationals is already out of level.

 

[KamehamehaBackhand]

Counter point, the teams I've been on that have district/sectional aspirations organize lots of team practices and try to make each other better.
The teams I'm on that don't have such aspirations are usually just trying to make sure they have a full lineup show up for each match.

 

[Purestriker]

Either that, or focusing on winning the matches that matter and losing the ones that don’t?

Now you are talking.

 

[cks]

The years I'm at the bottom of a level are the most fun because I can just play tennis.

I'm at the bottom of 3.5 level. Now I'm working on earning spots in the 3.5 match lineups. And I still take my weekly lesson and practice a few times a week.

 

[Purestriker]

I think there are better ways to encourage improvement than by taking away glory carrots.

For example, how about a coed match format where 2 of 7 slots have be filled by women. Some guys get really motivated to improve if they know the ladies are paying attention.

Depends on the ladies.

 

[loosegroove]

Albert and David are only three degrees of separation away, despite playing in completely different parts of the country.

Except Plot Twist: David from Virginia’s wife has an annual work conference at corporate, with accommodations provided for her at the Grand Hyatt San Diego…where Albert from California is employed. After a long day of meetings she heads down to the hotel bar for a cocktail, where she catches the eye of a handsome and charming barkeep. Hours of flirtatious banter and a few too many martinis lead to a night of impassioned romance. So Albert and David are only two degrees of separation away!

Sorry, I really need to get out more often…

 

[TennisOTM]

I don't think that having Nationals at every level discourages improvement. The vast majority of teams have no shot at Nationals and the idea of Nationals has practically zero effect on their tennis improvement goals. Most players are just trying to get better within their level, or are content to play at their current skill level if they are enjoying their matches.

Even for those minority of teams with Nationals goals, the players know that they HAVE to improve to be competitive. Only the teams with players who have improved well into the next level have a shot to actually win. Any Nationals team player knows that they are likely getting bumped if they win Sectionals or Nationals matches - that's an expected and understood consequence of that achievement.

Of course there are some players who don't want to improve for other reasons, maybe the best example being high-end 4.5 players who don't have a 5.0 league in their area. But that problem has nothing to do with the existence of 4.5 Nationals. The ones motivated to win 4.5 Nationals are maybe the rare 4.5 players who actually DO want to improve, so that they can beat the other high-end teams. In that sense, taking away 4.5 Nationals might ironically backfire, because you are taking away one of the only incentives for them to improve.

 

[schmke]

The USTA needs to take the top 1/2 of all 4.5 guys and say..."Hey congrats, you are now all 5.0. Enjoy!" Its the only way to open up the 4.5s, IMO. So many 4.5s drag their feet bc they know, if they get bumped, there is nothing else. 5.0 doesn't exist, and a 4.5 simply isn't competitive at the open level.

IMO, the lack of a volume of 5.0 players is what creates the 4.5 sandbagging.

There is probably some truth to this, but doing what you describe would simply end up making 5.5 the level where there is little opportunity to play and players drag their feet about getting to or actively try to avoid getting bumped up.

No matter what you do, there will always be a tail at the high end where there isn't critical mass for league play. Where this tail is will vary with area based on population as well which further complicates things.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I played a guy yesterday who was better than me, and Iḿ a 4.5 player who has won several USTA 4.5 singles tournaments. He asked me to join his 3.5 USTA team to play 2nd singles.

This guy is better than me and he plays on a 3.5 team? Somebody needs to explain this to me.

You're a terrible sandbagger.

 

[PK6]

How can you play 3.5 league when your a 4.5? You can’t.

 

[travlerajm]

How can you play 3.5 league when your a 4.5? You can’t.

Correct. But you can play 3.5 league when you think you’re a 4.5.

 

[J011yroger]

How can you play 3.5 league when your a 4.5? You can’t.

There are two types of 3.5s, cheaters and losers.

J

 

[PK6]

Correct. But you can play 3.5 league when you think you’re a 4.5.

Exactly!!! That’s what promotes cheating/sandbagging-that’s why I quit playing tennis-to much of this!!!

 

[travlerajm]

Exactly!!! That’s what promotes cheating/sandbagging-that’s why I quit playing tennis-to much of this!!!

There’s another way to look at it. Those 3.5s who think they are 4.5s?… they are simply 3.5s who hate losing.

 

[PK6]

That’s another reason I quit-losing. With thousands thousands thousands of dollars spent on private lessons. I did what tennis professionals told me to in matches only to get beat. Not worth spending money on this anymore. Rather focus on bodybuilding/watching/going to sporting events instead

 

[travlerajm]

That’s another reason I quit-losing. With thousands thousands thousands of dollars spent on private lessons. I did what tennis professionals told me to in matches only to get beat. Not worth spending money on this anymore. Rather focus on bodybuilding/watching/going to sporting events instead

Yes. I can see how it might be discouraging to lose to people who have never spent a dollar on learning proper strokes.

 

[J011yroger]

Yes. I can see how it might be discouraging to lose to people who have never spent a dollar on learning proper strokes.

Imagine having to work and put in effort to get results instead of throwing money at the problem?

J

 

[PK6]

Imagine having to work and put in effort to get results instead of throwing money at the problem?

J

I put in the efficient over 10 years! Other team mates said I’m spending to much money as well being to intense/wanting to win and not caring about other peoples feelings-whatever! They said if I win great if I lose no big deal. That right there was red flag and no longer want anything to do with tennis anymore along being around them and hope they lose every match! F—k them!! B

 

[travlerajm]

I put in the efficient over 10 years! Other team mates said I’m spending to much money as well being to intense/wanting to win and not caring about other peoples feelings-whatever! They said if I win great if I lose no big deal. That right there was red flag and no longer want anything to do with tennis anymore along being around them and hope they lose every match! F—k them!! B

Have you considered counseling? I know it’s pricier than this forum, but it might be helpful.

 

[PK6]

No!!! As I’ve said before buyer beware-tennis is the devil

 

[travlerajm]

I think we found @dgold44 ‘s long lost cousin.

 

[Purestriker]

Have you considered counseling? I know it’s pricier than this forum, but it might be helpful.

Anger management issues vibes.

 

[PK6]

Anger management issues vibes.

Absolutely!!!!

 

[recreationalplayer]

What can be done to encourage people to play more and want to get better?

What if instead of nationals for every level, they capped progression by level.

2.5: Local league only, this is just to learn how to compete and be on a team. If you are #1 out of the teams you play, congrats, you are done.

3.0: Local league playoff, top 2 or 4 teams have a playoff match or weekend to determine winner.

3.5: District playoff, might be the same as local playoff depending on number of teams.

4.0: Regional playoff, winners of each district play each other to be the region champion.

4.5: Sectionals, 4.5s go to sectionals. If you win your section, it's great success, see you next year.

5.0: Nationals, I guarantee if only 5.0s went to nationals there would be more 5.0 teams.

This will never happen because as teams progresses to the next level another fee is paid, by each individual, on every team. USTA is about money.

 

[Purestriker]

Absolutely!!!!

I am thankful you have this forum to get some of those demons out.

 

[J011yroger]

This will never happen because as teams progresses to the next level another fee is paid, by each individual, on every team. USTA is about money.

Bruh, your $30 means nothing to them. I'm sure all the post season play costs them money.

J

 

[Purestriker]

Bruh, your $30 means nothing to them. I'm sure all the post season play costs them money.

J

That $30 doesn't even fund the terrible t-shirt and bag tags I get for advancing.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I've been on this bandwagon for a while. I've always thought USTA should award improvement over getting a national trophy for being the best managed mediocre tennis team. Achievement in going up a level should be rewarded far more generously. Whether that's a bigger tournament or just a nicer trophy, I don't care. But a 3.0 national champion is a meaningless achievement given the arbitrary level determination and opportunity for sandbagging.

The best thing you can do in tennis is get better. We should be encouraging that. You can always win in tennis if you pick the right opponents and you can always lose if you want as well. But getting better is a true mark of accomplishment.

 

[ktx]

I cannot understand the urge to sandbag just to go to nationals, nor have I ever been to any post-season. But to address the OP, what if the USTA narrowed the rating bands or bifurcated them so there is for example 3.5A and 3.5B leagues, with only A leagues able to progress to post-season. B league is for development. The cut-offs between bands would become more narrow encouraging more movement between ratings and theoretically making it harder to manage your scores to sandbag. This will of course never happen, I think we are stuck with USTA as it is.

 

[Chalkdust]

I cannot understand the urge to sandbag just to go to nationals, nor have I ever been to any post-season. But to address the OP, what if the USTA narrowed the rating bands or bifurcated them so there is for example 3.5A and 3.5B leagues, with only A leagues able to progress to post-season. B league is for development. The cut-offs between bands would become more narrow encouraging more movement between ratings and theoretically making it harder to manage your scores to sandbag. This will of course never happen, I think we are stuck with USTA as it is.

Sometimes, maybe often, the urge is more so with the captain than with individual players. The captain then specifically recruits players to sandbag, who might not have actually wanted to or cared about sandbagging otherwise.

This is how an acquaintance of mine who had been rated 5.0 ended up playing for a 4.0 team two years later rated as a 4.0C. Story for another time.

 

[PFG1]

Sometimes, maybe often, the urge is more so with the captain than with individual players. The captain then specifically recruits players to sandbag, who might not have actually wanted to or cared about sandbagging otherwise.

This is how an acquaintance of mine who had been rated 5.0 ended up playing for a 4.0 team two years later rated as a 4.0C. Story for another time.

You should see the former D1 players on 4.5 teams.

And guys who played on tour on 4.5 teams.

And international players with tour points on 4.5 teams.

Its a joke. But, as you mentioned, the "best" captains know the work arounds, and always have a couple guys ready to come in and win matches when needed. It discourages 75% of players. The other 25% or so enjoy the shenanigans and live for out shenanig-ing the other teams.

The blending of rec play and former pro play is a big mistake by the USTA, IMO.

 

[travlerajm]

You should see the former D1 players on 4.5 teams.

And guys who played on tour on 4.5 teams.

And international players with tour points on 4.5 teams.

Its a joke. But, as you mentioned, the "best" captains know the work arounds, and always have a couple guys ready to come in and win matches when needed. It discourages 75% of players. The other 25% or so enjoy the shenanigans and live for out shenanig-ing the other teams.

The blending of rec play and former pro play is a big mistake by the USTA, IMO.

Why not just enjoy the chance to play matches against ex atp pros for cheap? I relish opportunities to test myself against world class strokes.

 

[PFG1]

Why not just enjoy the chance to play matches against ex atp pros for cheap? I relish opportunities to test myself against world class strokes.

I suppose thats one way to look at it.

That said, I think the USTA tournament circuit would be a better option for that. Sign up for the open draw, be guaranteed 2 matches, and know going in that you'll get an opponent above your level.

League play is league play. You sign up for 4.5 to play 4.5. Not an open level ringer who can self rate at 4.5. JMO

 

[recreationalplayer]

Bruh, your $30 means nothing to them. I'm sure all the post season play costs them money.

J

It's 30 x the number of all participants x each progressive step in addition to initial USTA fees for joining. And at tournaments they depend heavily on volunteers.

 

[kingcheetah]

USTA league play is broken beyond repair IMO. Too much gamesmanship, drama, and people throwing matches to manage ratings.

 

[Chalkdust]

You should see the former D1 players on 4.5 teams.

And guys who played on tour on 4.5 teams.

And international players with tour points on 4.5 teams.

Its a joke. But, as you mentioned, the "best" captains know the work arounds, and always have a couple guys ready to come in and win matches when needed. It discourages 75% of players. The other 25% or so enjoy the shenanigans and live for out shenanig-ing the other teams.

The blending of rec play and former pro play is a big mistake by the USTA, IMO.

I don't disagree because I've come across recent ex D1 players myself at 5.0 and even 4.5.
I've personally never minded because I enjoy playing against that kind of quality, even though I rarely win.

Actually I get a laugh out of it... here I am, a middle-aged rec player who never played competitively beyond HS, somewhat hanging with a guy who until a few years ago was doing 30 hours a week of training/practice in a college program.

Having said that I think 4.0 is much worse in terms of sandbagging than 4.5. Think about it... the best (worst?) sandbaggers in 4.0 are high 4.5 borderline 5.0. So the equivalent in 4.5 would be high 5.0 borderline 5.5. But there's just not that many players that good that could care less about playing league, much less 4.5 league.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I put in the efficient over 10 years! Other team mates said I’m spending to much money as well being to intense/wanting to win and not caring about other peoples feelings-whatever! They said if I win great if I lose no big deal. That right there was red flag and no longer want anything to do with tennis anymore along being around them and hope they lose every match! F—k them!! B

Post of the year candidate. Well played, sir.

 

[gsung]

I suppose thats one way to look at it.

That said, I think the USTA tournament circuit would be a better option for that. Sign up for the open draw, be guaranteed 2 matches, and know going in that you'll get an opponent above your level.

League play is league play. You sign up for 4.5 to play 4.5. Not an open level ringer who can self rate at 4.5. JMO

I have played open level USTA/UTR tournaments as a 4.5, where I expect to lose to someone higher level than me. The issues I have with tournaments are:

1) Scheduling: You don't know until a few days before the tournament when your first match is. Also, you don't know for sure how many matches you will play, since sometimes I do run into people at/below my level in the first round(s) in these tournaments. For me personally, I am not a morning person, and these tournaments like scheduling matches in the morning D:

2) Cost: Unless I make it to the semis or further (which I don't expect to), the cost per match is higher than a league match, at least for NorCal.

For these reasons, league matches are easier for me, and I don't mind running into a 5.0+ sandbagger. If I lose, I lost to a 5.0 player, no biggie. If that 5.0 player has a horrible stomach ache, headache, 2 hours of sleep, and forgot how to play tennis that day, maybe I have a chance to win. There's only upside!

 

[raftervolley]

I’m not sure if I was clear before. I met the person I played, who asked me to join his 3.5 team, through a friend.

I politely declined his offer, but could not believe he is on a 3.5 team because he is clearly much better than 3.5.

I am a 4.5 player, but do not play on any USTA teams. This type of sandbagging is one of the reasons I gave up playing USTA leagues many years ago.

 

[jdawgg]

You should see the former D1 players on 4.5 teams.

And guys who played on tour on 4.5 teams.

And international players with tour points on 4.5 teams.

Its a joke. But, as you mentioned, the "best" captains know the work arounds, and always have a couple guys ready to come in and win matches when needed. It discourages 75% of players. The other 25% or so enjoy the shenanigans and live for out shenanig-ing the other teams.

The blending of rec play and former pro play is a big mistake by the USTA, IMO.

As someone who has played at 4.5 nationals this is false. Players considered sandbagging were typically UTR 9 (teams typically had 1-3 of these players). Not good enough for D1. There was one UTR 11 in all of nationals which was ridiculous but an outlier. The two singles finalists were UTR 9s who played D2