USTA league is just full of....

[shintan17]

Just now, I was searching information on the guy whom my friend will take a lesson with tomorrow. This guy is #1 of USTA 30's in USTA mid-atlantic division (I won't mention his name) as well as #1 USTA doubles player in the same section, and used to play for the local university in Baltimore, MD which is a D-I school and he made the all-conference team in both singles and doubles....I bet he is a solid 5.5 player AT LEAST (correct me if I am wrong because I seriously don't know how good #1 of USTA 30's in the mid-atlantic).

Anyway....then, I found out he was playing for the USTA 4.5 league a few years ago, and won the nationals. I mean..WTF??? 4.5??? Are you ****ing kidding? This is just not right..I am glad I don't play USTA leagues, especially above 4.0 is ridiculous. My friend who will take a lesson from this guy tomorrow, he is a 4.5 player, and I am sure he won't be able to take more than one game from this guy.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Just now, I was searching information on the guy whom my friend will take a lesson with tomorrow. This guy is #1 of USTA 30's in USTA mid-atlantic division (I won't mention his name) as well as #1 USTA doubles player in the same section, and used to play for the local university in Baltimore, MD which is a D-I school and he made the all-conference team in both singles and doubles....I bet he is a solid 5.5 player AT LEAST.

Anyway....then, I found out he was playing for the USTA 4.5 league a few years ago, and won the nationals. I mean..WTF??? 4.5??? Are you ****ing kidding? This is just not right..I am glad I don't play USTA leagues, especially above 4.0 is ridiculous.

Yup ... that's what we've been complaining about. What's worse is that at the rate things are going, many of us should be dropped down to 4.0.

 

[shintan17]

Yup ... that's what we've been complaining about. What's worse is that at the rate things are going, many of us should be dropped down to 4.0.

Yep...it's ridiculous...it's just not right.

 

[shintan17]

No wonder I can never feel like I am getting better because nowadays 4.0-4.5 leagues are all occupied by local pros and former college players.

I should be playing in the 3.0 now. I don't even know I can win a game there, to tell you the truth.

Players in nationals 3.0 are probably playing like 4.5 of 10 years ago, I assume.

 

[goober]

Have your friend ask the "instructor" why he is rated 4.5

Wait for the long, defensive, excuse-filled answer:twisted:

 

[cghipp]

If the guy didn't self-rate or appeal down, it's not his fault (or his problem).

 

[Topaz]

^^^Very true...why, Jack has a post about a guy who played Wimby and won national titles who got computer rated as a 4.5.

It isn't *always* the people behaving badly.

 

[goober]

If the guy didn't self-rate or appeal down, it's not his fault (or his problem).

I pretty much can guess the scenario based on limited info:

Team with national championship aspirations re_cruits a ringer. He self rates and helps the team win. He probably got bumped and is not playing league tennis I am guessing. Less likely he is actively manipulating his rating.

Just to throw up your hands and say well that is what the computer gave him is a cop out. (Texas anyone?!). There is no way the #1 ranked Mens 30's player in ANY section should be a 4.5.

 

[takl23]

Playing devils advocate here; what if in his area there aren't any 5.5 leagues or events? Is he not allowed to play?

I completley argree about the post Jack made about the 4.5 playing Wimby.

To the people that are sandbagging, I hope you all feel good about beating lesser opponets!

Cheers,

Tim

 

[goober]

Playing devils advocate here; what if in his area there aren't any 5.5 leagues or events? Is he not allowed to play?

I completley argree about the post Jack made about the 4.5 playing Wimby.

To the people that are sandbagging, I hope you all feel good about beating lesser opponets!

Cheers,

Tim

There are always Open level tournaments in every area. I agree that he may be excluded from league team tennis. But that is just the breaks. In my area there are no 5.0+ USTA teams. All the open players have plenty of competition in tourneys and interclub 5.0+ leagues.

 

[lostinamerica]

There are always Open level tournaments in every area. I agree that he may be excluded from league team tennis. But that is just the breaks. In my area there are no 5.0+ USTA teams. All the open players have plenty of competition in tourneys and interclub 5.0+ leagues.

He could start his own 5.0 team. I suspect there are other 5.0s in the same boat.

 

[Fedace]

I know several solid 4.5-5.0 level guys that are playing in 4.0 USTA league. I also know another solid 4.5 level guy that played in 3.5 USTA league, last year just cause his self rating came out to 3.5 so cheating thru self rate system is rampant.

 

[lostinamerica]

I know several solid 4.5-5.0 level guys that are playing in 4.0 USTA league. I also know another solid 4.5 level guy that played in 3.5 USTA league, last year just cause his self rating came out to 3.5 so cheating thru self rate system is rampant.

I know a guy that played JUCO tennis and was forced to self-rate at 4.0 but in reality he is no better than an average 3.0. It works both ways. Many small college/JUCO teams take warm bodies to play. Those guys are forced to play at a level they cannot compete (especially when you consider half the league is at least .5 out of level).

 

[tenniko]

(under the USTA league conditions)
5.0 are reserved for US Open it seems...

 

[Moz]

Looking at this years results I would be surprised if he was a 5.5. I would say (strong) 5.0 would be fair - although that still proves your point I suppose!

 

[Clintspin]

The number one guy for Mid-Atlantic 30's singles is a 5.0 player. He beats everybody easily in singles until he gets to the Nationals, where he loses. He is probably a 5.5 player.

 

[shintan17]

The number one guy for Mid-Atlantic 30's singles is a 5.0 player. He beats everybody easily in singles until he gets to the Nationals, where he loses. He is probably a 5.5 player.

Do you know him? He is ONLY 5.0? I doubt it if he is really #1 in over 30's singles for mid-atlantic. And he was an all-conference division I player. I think he is at least 5.5.

Maybe I will self-rate myself and play 3.0 next year, so I can win the nationals!! ;D

 

[tfm1973]

I know a guy that played JUCO tennis and was forced to self-rate at 4.0 but in reality he is no better than an average 3.0. It works both ways. Many small college/JUCO teams take warm bodies to play. Those guys are forced to play at a level they cannot compete (especially when you consider half the league is at least .5 out of level).

Yep. I've seen that too. This guy told me he played in college so I'm thinking at least 4.5 talent or better but he really was no better than most 3.0 players. Turned out he played for some small Jesuit college or something I've never heard of. Just a warm body and a lot of really ugly strokes. :shock:

 

[shintan17]

If the guy didn't self-rate or appeal down, it's not his fault (or his problem).

Well, the problem is here is HONESTY..that's all. I guess the blame goes to the captain as well as the guy committed to play for the league where he knew he could beat 90% of his opponents easily. I wouldn't enjoy it, though.

 

[Topaz]

Before 'blame' gets assigned...wouldn't it be helpful to know what actually happened? Sometimes people do the honest thing, and it is the USTA computer that is to blame...sometimes people manipulate the system and are dishonest, and they are to blame. We don't really know what is going on in this case. Maybe your friend can find out some details?

Another thing to consider...did you read the thread about the Dallas teams? Sometimes you are doing everything right, and it is your *opponent's* manipluations that in turn affect your rating...catch my drift?

 

[cghipp]

I pretty much can guess the scenario based on limited info:

Team with national championship aspirations re_cruits a ringer. He self rates and helps the team win. He probably got bumped and is not playing league tennis I am guessing. Less likely he is actively manipulating his rating.

Just to throw up your hands and say well that is what the computer gave him is a cop out. (Texas anyone?!). There is no way the #1 ranked Mens 30's player in ANY section should be a 4.5.

In my opinion, assuming you know the circumstances is the "cop-out," not giving someone the benefit of the doubt until you actually know something.

 

[shintan17]

Before 'blame' gets assigned...wouldn't it be helpful to know what actually happened? Sometimes people do the honest thing, and it is the USTA computer that is to blame...sometimes people manipulate the system and are dishonest, and they are to blame. We don't really know what is going on in this case. Maybe your friend can find out some details?

Another thing to consider...did you read the thread about the Dallas teams? Sometimes you are doing everything right, and it is your *opponent's* manipluations that in turn affect your rating...catch my drift?

Well.. Topaz.. I didn't read the story of Dallas team.

Do you really think the guy (I researched on him a bit more and he was as high as #3 player in the USTA mid-atlantic division) has a legit business in the 4.5 league no matter what the reason was? He was a #7 player in the MA in the year before he won the 4.5 nationals. How could he play for 4.5 next year? Maybe because there was no league 5.0 or better? Still, why would you bother yourself playing in it if you knew you would win every single match..

I wouldn't play for 3.0 team no matter what. I don't care the team has a chance to win the nationals. That's my view.

 

[Topaz]

^^^I honestly don't know if he has legit business in a 4.5 league or not...and wasn't this several years ago?

I agree that he should be rated higher...no question given his background. I'm just not so quick to assume that the rating is because of him or other circumstances.

 

[goober]

In my opinion, assuming you know the circumstances is the "cop-out," not giving someone the benefit of the doubt until you actually know something.

Whether he got the rating by his self rating or weather he got it because through some computer assignment is irrelevant IMO. He clearly is not where he should be just as the former ATP/wimbledon player should not be 4.5. The end result is he is incorrectly rated and should be correctly rated whether it is his fault or not. The OP did not say it was his fault, just that it was not right.

It is true I am engaging in speculation, but by the USTA experienced player guidelines he would have to self rate a minimum of 5.0 or 5.5 from age 31-45 depending on whether what is ranking was in college and how high his college was ranked. If he was doing well enough in USTA tourneys to maintain a number #1 ranking in the mid atlantic section. I don't see how his rating could have fallen other than he self rated his first season too low. If you have other possible explanations I am willing to listen to them.

 

[shintan17]

^^^I honestly don't know if he has legit business in a 4.5 league or not...and wasn't this several years ago?

I agree that he should be rated higher...no question given his background. I'm just not so quick to assume that the rating is because of him or other circumstances.

Well...the weird thing is like I said..the year before he played for 4.5, he was #3 player in the USTA MAC, so I have no idea HOW he ended up playing in 4.5 the year after...the computer got a virus and broken? Maybe that's what happened. He almost won the wild card for legg mason, too.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Before 'blame' gets assigned...wouldn't it be helpful to know what actually happened? Sometimes people do the honest thing, and it is the USTA computer that is to blame...sometimes people manipulate the system and are dishonest, and they are to blame. We don't really know what is going on in this case. Maybe your friend can find out some details?

Another thing to consider...did you read the thread about the Dallas teams? Sometimes you are doing everything right, and it is your *opponent's* manipluations that in turn affect your rating...catch my drift?

The other thing to consider is how the algorithm is behaving. I blame the algorithm more than anything.

There are many underrated Div 1 and 2 college players from top ranked schools coming in at 4.5 instead of playing up at 5.5 or 6.0.

So the player mentioned in the OP can be playing Open tournament/league or 5.0 league, and encounter underrated 4.0 and 4.5 players. These players instead of moving up to 4.5 and 5.0 bring him down to 4.5.

So it comes down to personal integrity, and whether the player would abuse the rating, or play where he should.

Sometimes valid lower NTRP players who play up also contribute to the problem, especially if the higher NTRP player doesn't have enough data.

Unfortunately, a few years ago when self-rating was introduced, even as a top ranked regional 5.0 player, you could no longer find a team to play on when the team had aspirations to make Nationals. The 5.0 teams were filled with players who should have been playing 5.5 and Open league. Then the algorithm kicks in and starts pushing everyone down, except those unwilling to compromise and keep playing at what should be their level (as a 4.5 on a 5.0 or 5.5 team. Which then affects even more ratings, and the circle is created. Ugh ... now I'm ranting.

Basically, at the higher NTRPs, the problem is both the underrating and the algorithm.

USTA needs to do more manual "benchmark" adjustments because as few 5.0+ players there were, the algorithm keeps dumping them into 4.5, which dumps 4.5 players to 4.0. They also need to follow their own elite player guidelines when rating the former pros and former college players.

 

[shintan17]

The other thing to consider is how the algorithm is behaving. I blame the algorithm more than anything.

There are many underrated Div 1 and 2 college players from top ranked schools coming in at 4.5 instead of playing up at 5.5 or 6.0.

So the player mentioned in the OP can be playing Open tournament/league or 5.0 league, and encounter underrated 4.0 and 4.5 players. These players instead of moving up to 4.5 and 5.0 bring him down to 4.5.

So it comes down to personal integrity, and whether the player would abuse the rating, or play where he should.

Sometimes valid lower NTRP players who play up also contribute to the problem, especially if the higher NTRP player doesn't have enough data.

Unfortunately, a few years ago when self-rating was introduced, even as a top ranked regional 5.0 player, you could no longer find a team to play on when the team had aspirations to make Nationals. The 5.0 teams were filled with players who should have been playing 5.5 and Open league. Then the algorithm kicks in and starts pushing everyone down, except those unwilling to compromise and keep playing at what should be their level (as a 4.5 on a 5.0 or 5.5 team. Which then affects even more ratings, and the circle is created. Ugh ... now I'm ranting.

Basically, at the higher NTRPs, the problem is both the underrating and the algorithm.

USTA needs to do more manual "benchmark" adjustments because as few 5.0+ players there were, the algorithm keeps dumping them into 4.5, which dumps 4.5 players to 4.0. They also need to follow their own elite player guidelines when rating the former pros and former college players.

Thanks for all the info..I never played in the USTA league before nor had/have the membership (this is like my 3rd year playing tennis seriously), so I was also curious how the self rating and whole process of putting players in the right ratings work

Maybe yeah..that's what happened in the bald..

I am curious to see him how good he is, though..gonna find out in a few hours ;D

 

[cghipp]

Goober, there is plenty of evidence that the ratings often defy explanation (or at leastg logic). I hardly need to make something up just to satisfy you,

 

[goober]

Well I looked up this guys record. It was pretty easy to figure out who he was based on the info. The current 30s men's #1 ranked in the mid Atlantic region had his first year of USTA league play in 2003. He went undefeated through league and championship play playing #1 singles at the 4.5 level. he dropped one set his entire season at that was at the Maryland District Championship. He won his singles matches at the semi finals and finals at Nationals 6-2, 6-1 and 6-3, 6-2.

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/...0790846760A138FA49D8BF7E4D2CD3F2D0&CYear=2003

So it is pretty obivious he self rated his first season and won his team a championship. He got bumped to 5.0. That's pretty much what I guessed in my first post and looking up his record only supports what I thought.

 

[shintan17]

Well I looked up this guys record. It was pretty easy to figure out who he was based on the info. The current 30s men's #1 ranked in the mid Atlantic region had his first year of USTA league play in 2003. He went undefeated through league and championship play playing #1 singles at the 4.5 level. he dropped one set his entire season at that was at the Maryland District Championship. He won his singles matches at the semi finals and finals at Nationals 6-2, 6-1 and 6-3, 6-2.

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/...0790846760A138FA49D8BF7E4D2CD3F2D0&CYear=2003

So it is pretty obivious he self rated his first season and won his team a championship. He got bumped to 5.0. That's pretty much what I guessed in my first post and looking up his record only supports what I thought.

Well..the thing is he was rated #3 player in the whole USTA MAC section the year before he played 4.5. How could that happen? The USTA didn't know how good he was? How could he be rated #3, then?

 

[JavierLW]

Playing devils advocate here; what if in his area there aren't any 5.5 leagues or events? Is he not allowed to play?

I completley argree about the post Jack made about the 4.5 playing Wimby.

To the people that are sandbagging, I hope you all feel good about beating lesser opponets!

Cheers,

Tim

Yes he should still not be allowed to play. 5.5 is way diffrent than 4.5.

That's the problem with the league, by being "player friendly" to the select few sandbaggers out there, they are hurting the experience for the hunderds of other players.

Otherwise, what if they dont even have 4.5? Should he get to play 4.0 then? What about 3.5 or 3.0? None of those two people mentioned belong in 4.5.

I also agree "that the computer rated them" that way argument doesnt work. That's just the nature of the computer system, if you choose to self rate yourself WAY outside of where you need to be (2 levels or more), then you are creating an situation where the computer cant take care of your rating.

He could of rated himself 3.0, and now he'd have a 3.5 rating, the computer cant possibly in most cases give him any higher than that. (you can only beat someone so handily....) Now if some guy that is winning national titles has a 3.5 computer rating, are you really going to blame the computer??

 

[goober]

Well..the thing is he was rated #3 player in the whole USTA MAC section the year before he played 4.5. How could that happen? The USTA didn't know how good he was? How could he be rated #3, then?

Well I don't think the USTA really does anything when somebody self rates too low unless another person files a grievance. Maybe no grievances were filed or maybe they were denied. In 2003 there may not have been computer dynamic DQs? I am not sure. I do find it very curious that his two regular season matches both had scores of 6-1 and 7-6. It appears from that score that he could have been keeping one set close so he he wouldn't get DQ'ed. Considering how he completely dominated at the nationals where there were better players, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

 

[JLyon]

Well I don't think the USTA really does anything when somebody self rates too low unless another person files a grievance. Maybe no grievances were filed or maybe they were denied. In 2003 there may not have been computer dynamic DQs? I am not sure. I do find it very curious that his two regular season matches both had scores of 6-1 and 7-6. It appears from that score that he could have been keeping one set close so he he wouldn't get DQ'ed. Considering how he completely dominated at the nationals where there were better players, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

If he last played league in 2003, he could self-rate again to 4.5 and then someone should file an immediate grievance which with evidence can easily be upheld and poof the guy is to his proper level.

 

[goober]

If he last played league in 2003, he could self-rate again to 4.5 and then someone should file an immediate grievance which with evidence can easily be upheld and poof the guy is to his proper level.

Actually if you look at his record he has been playing 5.0 league tennis every year since then. He took his 5.0 team to Nationals in 2007. He didn't drop a set till he got to Nationals. You could make a good case for a 5.5 rating.

 

[mista-k]

I agree...MD and NOVA if you get bumped up to 4.5 expect to play 5.0 guys who werent able to play much in 3 years so they get to bump down...saw the ratings and my jaw dropped to see some of them in 4.5...bummer its no fun to get bumped up in this region
4.5 guys here /some of them teach in the 4 star academy...and they are no joke

 

[CAM178]

Ahh, welcome to the joys of USTA league tennis.

 

[CAM178]

Just now, I was searching information on the guy whom my friend will take a lesson with tomorrow. This guy is #1 of USTA 30's in USTA mid-atlantic division (I won't mention his name) as well as #1 USTA doubles player in the same section, and used to play for the local university in Baltimore, MD which is a D-I school and he made the all-conference team in both singles and doubles....I bet he is a solid 5.5 player AT LEAST (correct me if I am wrong because I seriously don't know how good #1 of USTA 30's in the mid-atlantic).

Anyway....then, I found out he was playing for the USTA 4.5 league a few years ago, and won the nationals. I mean..WTF??? 4.5??? Are you ****ing kidding? This is just not right..I am glad I don't play USTA leagues, especially above 4.0 is ridiculous. My friend who will take a lesson from this guy tomorrow, he is a 4.5 player, and I am sure he won't be able to take more than one game from this guy.

If his initials are ML, then he can ball. I know about the guy he lost to in M30 Clay's last year, and that guy is sick. ML went 4 & 4 with him, so he can definitely ball.

 

[shintan17]

If his initials are ML, then he can ball. I know about the guy he lost to in M30 Clay's last year, and that guy is sick. ML went 4 & 4 with him, so he can definitely ball.

Yep, I met him today, and he was very nice and a low-key guy. Skinnier than I thought from the pictures I saw, too. I got there early and saw he was playing a match against one of the pros at the club and he won the last set with a bagel. Amazing consistency...no wonder he was an all-conference team for D-I.

The way he taught my friend was very interesting as well. He is the kind of player that has maximized his full potential to be a great player..I wouldn't call him like BG (winning ugly), but he really likes to analyze how the each point is constructed and play a higher percentage shot instead of taking a risk. Simplify everything you do on the court..that's how he teaches, and listening to him was a great experience for me already since I never took a lesson before.

 

[CAM178]

Yep, I met him today, and he was very nice and a low-key guy. Skinnier than I thought from the pictures I saw, too. I got there early and saw he was playing a match against one of the pros at the club and he won the last set with a bagel. Amazing consistency...no wonder he was an all-conference team for D-I.

That's the one thing you'll find about the really good players: they normally keep just enough ahead of their opponent, but they can light up the afterburners in the blink of an eye. Saw a '5.0' player do this to a kid that was playing for UVA. 5.0 guy destroyed the kid: 1 & 0, and looked like he wasn't even trying. UVA kid was mentally destroyed. He was so cocky, but within one game, he knew it was a lost cause.

 

[JohnP]

The problem is that most of the NTRP Ratings were intended to be much higher level than they traditionally were. Look at the new self-rating system that addresses this. A player can be a former div2/div3 player and highly ranked sectional junior and get self-rated 4.5 by the computer. Alot of these guys are easily 5.0 or 5.5 by traditional standards, but they are LEGITIMATELY rated 4.5.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

The problem is that most of the NTRP Ratings were intended to be much higher level than they traditionally were. Look at the new self-rating system that addresses this. A player can be a former div2/div3 player and highly ranked sectional junior and get self-rated 4.5 by the computer. Alot of these guys are easily 5.0 or 5.5 by traditional standards, but they are LEGITIMATELY rated 4.5.

The computer assigns them based on their junior tournament play.

For some reason, USTA believes they should appeal to get their NTRP rating to the correct level. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened for the most part.

 

[BreakPoint]

Playing devils advocate here; what if in his area there aren't any 5.5 leagues or events? Is he not allowed to play?

Then start a 5.5 team. Nobody is stopping him from starting a team. I'm sure he can find enough players 4.5 and above to have at least two teams and that's all you need to have a league. Remember that you only need to have 5 guys to have a team above the 4.5 level, since they only play 3 matches per meet (2 doubles and 1 singles).

 

[rasajadad]

First of all, I didn't think there was a 30's division in USTA. Doesn't it start at 35's?

That aside, the whole NTRP thing is BS. I know a 5.0 on a 4.5 team (that went to Nationals.) He says he's not even competitive on his tea. BTW, he's #1 in his age group and #2 in the age group below in our section.

 

[junbug]

why don't you just say it.....SANDBAGGERS!!! maybe we should question their integrity as well as their ego.:roll:

 

[andfor]

First of all, I didn't think there was a 30's division in USTA. Doesn't it start at 35's?

That aside, the whole NTRP thing is BS. I know a 5.0 on a 4.5 team (that went to Nationals.) He says he's not even competitive on his tea. BTW, he's #1 in his age group and #2 in the age group below in our section.

Get out from under the rock. Adult age groups start with the 25's.

 

[raiden031]

Get out from under the rock. Adult age groups start with the 25's.

Where at? Certainly not in my area where its 35s is the lowest age group

 

[andfor]

why don't you just say it.....SANDBAGGERS!!! maybe we should question their integrity as well as their ego.:roll:

If the USTA has allow players in that are competitive with those already in the league is it really sandbagging?

The playing down issue is problem that the USTA created and the USTA needs to fix.

 

[andfor]

Where at? Certainly not in my area where its 35s is the lowest age group

Look is up in your section's website. They have a few 25's tournaments here in the Southerns and of course 25 nationals can be found as well.

Oh I forgot. Many of those tournaments for 30's and 25's have gone away causing us to find those younger players playing singes for 4.5 and 4.0 teams in league tennis.

 

[junbug]

And You Don't Want To Play In The 5.0's? Or Find A Or Even Form A 5.0 League?

 

[JLyon]

In my opinion, assuming you know the circumstances is the "cop-out," not giving someone the benefit of the doubt until you actually know something.

well even regulations say that look at the nice USTA chart, under 50 and Top 10 i Section typically leads to a 5.0 minimum rating but if the sections do not follow their own guidelines then the players will take advantage of it. Much like in TX allowing a Big 10 College Player and former Top 100 junior Self-rate 5.0 even though the player should clearly be a 5.5.