USTA league is just full of....

Topaz

Legend
Where at? Certainly not in my area where its 35s is the lowest age group

Raiden, I did some looking:

This is NTRP 3.0:
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=64134

NTRP 3.5:
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=64131

Men's 30s:
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=64138

All in your area, and that is just January.

Raiden, it seems like you always have some criticism - not enough people in the draw, not the right age group, no NTRP tournies. Well, there you have three. Go out, swing away, have a blast!
 

rasajadad

Hall of Fame
Get out from under the rock. Adult age groups start with the 25's.

Why don't you get out from your attitude dude. In New England, it goes from Open to 35's. Tomorrow, I'll be better informed. Tomorrow, you'll still be a tool.
 

IV10pro

New User
I have been watching these boards for some time and never really bothered to register to post.
However....this one got me. I know The guys pretty well that your are talking about. (by the way National starts at 30).

Neither is a 4.5 but that may be just a computer error. We have a couple of guys here in the Southern Section who were top 120 in the world and are rated 5.0. I was ranked in the 600s and somehow ended up a 4.5. I have beaten guys in the 1200 range in the last couple of years too.

So, I will agree that the computer can bee fooled and/or the program for rating is not very good.
 

andfor

Legend
Why don't you get out from your attitude dude. In New England, it goes from Open to 35's. Tomorrow, I'll be better informed. Tomorrow, you'll still be a tool.

the USTA is a great source. Although NE does not appear to have any 30 or 25 and unders you can travel a to NY for some. http://tennislink.usta.com/tourname...eEntry=&DrawsSheets=&UserTime=Fri+Nov+30+2007
Although your response showed you are a little sensitive don't take all responses so seriously. You are now better informed.
 
Raiden, I did some looking:

This is NTRP 3.0:
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=64134

NTRP 3.5:
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=64131

Men's 30s:
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=64138

All in your area, and that is just January.

Raiden, it seems like you always have some criticism - not enough people in the draw, not the right age group, no NTRP tournies. Well, there you have three. Go out, swing away, have a blast!

Topaz ... raiden031 is talking about Open age group. So 35 would mean, 35 and older, not NTRP 3.5 :lol:
 
Looking at this years results I would be surprised if he was a 5.5. I would say (strong) 5.0 would be fair - although that still proves your point I suppose!

He is, by definition, a 6.0 level player by virtue of his holding the #1 ranking in a division younger than 45. At age 45 you are allowed to self rate at 0.5 levels below your 'true' NTRP.

It's too bad because it sounds like this stuff is killing the fun of USTA play for lots of folks.

CC
 

Topaz

Legend
Topaz ... raiden031 is talking about Open age group. So 35 would mean, 35 and older, not NTRP 3.5 :lol:

Yes, I know this...the third link will take him to a 30s age group (he said 35 was too 'old' for him). I provided the others since he has also said that there are not many NTRP tournaments near him to choose from (or he said the draws were lacking). I gave him a 3.0 and a 3.5 link since I'm not sure which level he would prefer to compete in.

-Topaz, who is traveling to Florida next week to get her butt kicked in the 30s clay court championships.
 

raiden031

Legend
Yes, I know this...the third link will take him to a 30s age group (he said 35 was too 'old' for him). I provided the others since he has also said that there are not many NTRP tournaments near him to choose from (or he said the draws were lacking). I gave him a 3.0 and a 3.5 link since I'm not sure which level he would prefer to compete in.

-Topaz, who is traveling to Florida next week to get her butt kicked in the 30s clay court championships.

Ok maybe there's 30, but I've only really noticed 35. I'm only 26 so I can't play 30 anyways. So there are no age groups that I can play in. I will tell you something about that tennis club in the links. I paid an entry fee of $50 for a singles 3.0 draw (ripoff), and it was cancelled because there was ony 2-3 people in the draw. 3-4 weeks went by and no contact from them regarding a refund of my entry fee. I called them 3 different times and after a total of about 8 weeks of harrassing them, they finally sent a check in the mail with my refund. Since then I have had a hard time finding decent tournaments in the area.

My club has the best tournament turn-outs I've been to, but they are never sanctioned and some of the competitors are below level (aka. beginners).
 
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Topaz

Legend
Ok maybe there's 30, but I've only really noticed 35. I'm only 26 so I can't play 30 anyways. So there are no age groups that I can play in. I will tell you something about that tennis club in the links. I paid an entry fee of $50 for a singles 3.0 draw (ripoff), and it was cancelled because there was ony 2-3 people in the draw. 3-4 weeks went by and no contact from them regarding a refund of my entry fee. I called them 3 different times and after a total of about 8 weeks of harrassing them, they finally sent a check in the mail with my refund. Since then I have had a hard time finding decent tournaments in the area.

My club has the best tournament turn-outs I've been to, but they are never sanctioned and some of the competitors are below level (aka. beginners).

Hmmm, thanks for the heads up on that club.

Well, Raiden, all I can offer is that it seems like you are looking for a perfect situation where there is none. You could travel for the tournament, or suck it up and play the ones that are near you.

Also, if your club has decent tournaments, it doesn't take much to get it sanctioned. *You* could actually spearhead this and make it happen! :)
 

raiden031

Legend
Hmmm, thanks for the heads up on that club.

Well, Raiden, all I can offer is that it seems like you are looking for a perfect situation where there is none. You could travel for the tournament, or suck it up and play the ones that are near you.

Also, if your club has decent tournaments, it doesn't take much to get it sanctioned. *You* could actually spearhead this and make it happen! :)

Well I'm not that concerned with tournament play since it can require me to be available at all times over an entire weekend, which is seldom feasible, and can be expensive for the amount of play involved, and that I get plenty of competition in leagues and casual matches. I was just curious about the 25s comment because I'd never heard of such a thing.
 

andfor

Legend
Some sections (Southerns) will allow players who appeal to play down a level if a team does not exist at their level in their area. I know this sounds absurd but I came across this two summers ago. The player in question was a 5.0 and allowed to play down. The sections decision to allow this essentially cost us the state championship and a trip to sectionals. Although I don't entirely agree with this I understand the sections decision to allow for this provision. if you can't find a tournament or a team to play on if you have this option try it. As far as I am concerned the most important thing is that tennis players get an opportunity to play organized competition.

The big problem with ringers at mostly the 5.0, 4.5 and 4.0 level is because the USTA has failed or neglected to market to and cater to this group. 6.0 though 4.5 is a very small minority of the USTA's membership and traditionally the ones who supported open and age group tennis tournaments. As Team Tennis increased in popularity tournaments and tournament participation declined. This has caused advanced players who want to play to gravitate to league play. With self-verification and the convenience of league play available sandbagging occurs. The USTA although they could do something to address the problem does not. Thus, here we are stuck with the system they give us. For all the flaws overall it's better than nothing.

The USTA is still lazy IMO not addressing the problem with any solutions or even an attempt to provide a solution. Their last attemp to fix the system was Self-Verification and dynamic rating computer system. We all know what a flop that has been.
 

JavierLW

Hall of Fame
Some sections (Southerns) will allow players who appeal to play down a level if a team does not exist at their level in their area. I know this sounds absurd but I came across this two summers ago. The player in question was a 5.0 and allowed to play down. The sections decision to allow this essentially cost us the state championship and a trip to sectionals. Although I don't entirely agree with this I understand the sections decision to allow for this provision. if you can't find a tournament or a team to play on if you have this option try it. As far as I am concerned the most important thing is that tennis players get an opportunity to play organized competition.

The big problem with ringers at mostly the 5.0, 4.5 and 4.0 level is because the USTA has failed or neglected to market to and cater to this group. 6.0 though 4.5 is a very small minority of the USTA's membership and traditionally the ones who supported open and age group tennis tournaments. As Team Tennis increased in popularity tournaments, tournament participation declined. This has caused advanced players who want to play to gravitate to league play. With self-verification and the convenience of league play available sandbagging occurs. The USTA although they could do something to address the problem does not. Thus, here we are stuck with the system they give us. For all the flaws overall it's better than nothing.

The USTA is still lazy IMO not addressing the problem with any solutions or even an attempt to provide a solution. Their last attemp to fix the system was Self-Verification and dynamic rating computer system. We all know what a flop that has been.

I disagree slightly. The DNTRP system is MUCH better than what we had before. And self-rating isnt perfect but they are making some progress every year. Just because you hear some people heaming and hawing about it doesnt mean it was a total disaster.

I believe that most of the players who are out of level will get rated up due to these systems (although they may debate that they dont deserve to get rated up, or it's unjust). Then they can go on to "have fun" and play tennis at their new level which shouldnt be an issue as long as that level exists and they arent in it solely for winning championships.

What is wrong that I see is:

1) We have a stupid appeal system that let's you just click a button and you magically undo, what the computer has already done.

2) Sections such as yours who bend the rules, thinking they are being "player friendly" to a few players, even though it's not fair to the majority of their own players.

3) Certain Sections seem to have taken a personal stake in seeing their teams succeed, thus they encourage appeals, give our medical appeals like it's nobody's business, and generally look the other way when the system is abused unless a player files a grievence.

The National USTA League Committee is conflicted from what Ive heard.

Many of them hate appeals and if it was up to them they wouldnt grant any, including medical. They think the system will work itself out eventually. (does anyone else remember the mantra when this system came out of "The computer will take care of everything eventually.....".

But others are afraid it will rate too many people up. Which is why they constantly make systems that conflict with each other.

(like the fact that you can get rated up, but NO WAIT, if you are only .05 or under you should magically get to appeal. Unfortuanlly 80% of everyone who is rated up is under .05, it's not as small as they are advertising)
 

10sguy

Rookie
I know a guy that played JUCO tennis and was forced to self-rate at 4.0 but in reality he is no better than an average 3.0. It works both ways. Many small college/JUCO teams take warm bodies to play. Those guys are forced to play at a level they cannot compete (especially when you consider half the league is at least .5 out of level).

This guy was only "forced" to self rate at ("no lower than") 4.0 due to his responses to the questions. IMPORTANT NOTE: ALL self raters have an opportunity to appeal that rating.
 

GatorTennis

Rookie
In Florida, there are a lot of problems with the lower ratings. People self rate at 2.5 or even 2.0, but they play like 3.0 or 3.5. The problem is that grievences are never upheld so people just keep doing it. No accountability in USTA!
 
In Florida, there are a lot of problems with the lower ratings. People self rate at 2.5 or even 2.0, but they play like 3.0 or 3.5. The problem is that grievences are never upheld so people just keep doing it. No accountability in USTA!

By default, the rating form puts people at 2.0, despite the fact they are 3.0 or 3.5.

Usually, even though people have computer ratings, they are usually out of level if they originally self-rated too low. It takes maybe three years or so before the players get to the correct level. But the havoc they created during the time is pretty bad, it usually convinces people to quit USTA.

Until the majority of players quit USTA and join another league like Ultimate Tennis League, this will continue to happen.
 

CAM178

Hall of Fame
I think plenty of players can back me up on this, but 25's division stinks. No other way to put it. To me, the 25's division is for guys who get killed in Open, but aren't old enough to play 30's or 35's (depending on where you are; New England, for example, does not have 30's). The 25's division is basically a 4.0 tournament. They had 25's in the Southerns, and they were always weak draws. Open is the only place to get good competition. Even Robby Ginepri played the Open in a Georgia tournament right before he decided to go pro. Yes, he cleaned house.
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
This guy was only "forced" to self rate at ("no lower than") 4.0 due to his responses to the questions. IMPORTANT NOTE: ALL self raters have an opportunity to appeal that rating.

They do have the right and the appeal answer you get seems very subjective.
Piont in case had a player who played for a non-ranked DII school in 1992-1993, playing lines 6 & 7, never ranked higher than Top 20 in his own STATE!!, so nowhere near a top player in Section. Fills out appeal to move down from 4.5 to 4.0 and it gets rejected, yet several current DII players are seen at 4.0 level and Ranked Team players playing legit lines 2-4 are allowed to get a 4.5 rating.
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
there are plenty of P1 pros who are rated 4.5, so they know what they are doing, besides there are also plenty of P2 pros that are 4.0 and gasp 3.5 (what a joke).

Oh, I know. My point was to the poster's friend. If a teaching pro is a 5.0 - 5.5 level but rates himself at 4.5 and plays at that level, I wouldn't trust him in any category.
 

andfor

Legend
Oh, I know. My point was to the poster's friend. If a teaching pro is a 5.0 - 5.5 level but rates himself at 4.5 and plays at that level, I wouldn't trust him in any category.

There's a lot of that going on. Not just teaching pros, don't want to single out a group and give the wrong impression. What I don't understand is when someone self-rates as 4.5 and get's caught as being a former futures pro or recently ranked college player why the USTA does little more than bump them up a level or two. If you blatently lie on the self-rate from which is what I am talking about that should be dealt with much more harshly.

Additionally there are some captains out there filling out the online self-rate form for their new players as well. Seen that done wrong as well.

This discussion is the same old thing that's been going on for years. As far as I am concerned the levels have not been true to form for about 10 years. Most of the competition is for the most part equal. The problem is so many out of level players have been let in at lower levels it appears OK to some degree. At 4.5 for example at the sectionals you see very few older 35+ guys playing singles. Doubles yes, singles no. The system is somewhat goofed up but for the most part works.

My suggestion is to add a 35 and older NTRP division. Keep the open, seniors and super seniors just add one more division. Call it the Masters or Veterens division.
 

Roforot

Hall of Fame
Well..the thing is he was rated #3 player in the whole USTA MAC section the year before he played 4.5. How could that happen? The USTA didn't know how good he was? How could he be rated #3, then?

I agree w/ your frustration. The USTA is a corrupt and misguided organization; it reminds me of a quote from somewhere about a guy losing hand after hand in a game, and one of his buddies says, "Hey don't you know, they got this rigged against you?" And the guys says, "Yeah, but it's the only game in town."


There's a lot of that going on. Not just teaching pros, don't want to single out a group and give the wrong impression. What I don't understand is when someone self-rates as 4.5 and get's caught as being a former futures pro or recently ranked college player why the USTA does little more than bump them up a level or two. If you blatently lie on the self-rate from which is what I am talking about that should be dealt with much more harshly.

Additionally there are some captains out there filling out the online self-rate form for their new players as well. Seen that done wrong as well.

This discussion is the same old thing that's been going on for years. As far as I am concerned the levels have not been true to form for about 10 years. Most of the competition is for the most part equal. The problem is so many out of level players have been let in at lower levels it appears OK to some degree. At 4.5 for example at the sectionals you see very few older 35+ guys playing singles. Doubles yes, singles no. The system is somewhat goofed up but for the most part works.

My suggestion is to add a 35 and older NTRP division. Keep the open, seniors and super seniors just add one more division. Call it the Masters or Veterens division.

This suggestion is useful; I like the idea of a open/age related leagues of 35+ and maybe a special league of 50+.
This way you don't have to work on your game to get bumped up :)
 

burosky

Professional
What is the main objective of this post? There seems to be a lot of suggestions about changing the rating system. What is the desired outcome if the system is changed?

This NTRP debate has been going since I can't remember anymore. It's been incarnated in this forum in so many different threads. I doubt there is even one thread where an agreeable solution has been posted.
 

shintan17

Semi-Pro
Oh, I know. My point was to the poster's friend. If a teaching pro is a 5.0 - 5.5 level but rates himself at 4.5 and plays at that level, I wouldn't trust him in any category.

It doesn't work that way bud...if you are a certified teaching Pro, then, you are qualified to teach anyone at any level, right?

Why Tiger Woods needs a coach? ;) There is no one in the World plays the game of golf better than he is.

It's how you understand the game of sport for coaches..not how well you can play (obviously they all can play).
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
It doesn't work that way bud...if you are a certified teaching Pro, then, you are qualified to teach anyone at any level, right?

Why Tiger Woods needs a coach? ;) There is no one in the World plays the game of golf better than he is.

It's how you understand the game of sport for coaches..not how well you can play (obviously they all can play).

Bud, I'm talking about credibility and character. I expect my teaching pro to play at his correct level. I can take lessons and coaching from anyone, I'm not confined to a pro with questionable ethics.
 

burosky

Professional
Why would anyone want to take a lesson from a 4.5 player?

For a coach or instructor to be qualified or good, does he or she have to play at the 5.0 level at least?

I don't know but is Rafa's uncle at least a 5.0? I don't know their level of play either but how about Lansdorf or Bollatieri? There are a lot of excellent players from the 5.0 level up to the pros who can't teach. On the other hand, there are a lot of coaches or instructors who can barely play but have produced very good players.

I am a 4.5 player and know my limitations as a player. However, I know I can teach even a 5.0 or above level player a thing or two.
 

burosky

Professional
there are plenty of P1 pros who are rated 4.5, so they know what they are doing, besides there are also plenty of P2 pros that are 4.0 and gasp 3.5 (what a joke).
Why is a coach or instructor who is rated at 3.5 a joke? I know a few who are only 3.5 because of physical limitations. Some due to medical and some just plain got old. Pick their brains though and you will find a wealth of tennis information.

It is only recent when the USPTA required potential certified coaches to be a at a certain NTRP level to qualify for a specific certification rating. Regardless though, the testing is the same for all applicants. If you fail any of the written or on-court test, you don't get certified even at the P3 level. You have to pass all at the P3 level at least. This is nothing to sneeze at.

When I went for my certification, there was a D1 college player who failed because although he was excellent in stroke production, he didn't cut it for the individual or group lesson test. On the flip side, there is this old guy who barely passed the stroke production but excelled in the individual or group lesson test. Guess who got certified.

It's not all about the level of play. You want a coach who can coach or an instructor who can teach - not necessarily one who can play with you.
 

andfor

Legend
For a coach or instructor to be qualified or good, does he or she have to play at the 5.0 level at least?

I don't know but is Rafa's uncle at least a 5.0? I don't know their level of play either but how about Lansdorf or Bollatieri? There are a lot of excellent players from the 5.0 level up to the pros who can't teach. On the other hand, there are a lot of coaches or instructors who can barely play but have produced very good players.

I am a 4.5 player and know my limitations as a player. However, I know I can teach even a 5.0 or above level player a thing or two.

Great points. I don't think tennis-n-sc meant it the way you are interpruting it in though. He was talking about 5.5 and 5.0 teaching pros fudging on their NTRP to play league tennis at the 4.5 level. I thought he was questioning the integrity of someone would do that kind if thing in their own field of work. Right?
 
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Topaz

Legend
As in many walks of life, the best teachers are not always the best performers. Teaching that knowledge to someone else in a meaningful manner is a completely different skill set that being able to do it yourself.
 

burosky

Professional
I apologize for digressing from the topic. I just had to comment on those shortsighted posts.
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
Good points. I don't think tennis-n-sc meant it the way you are interpruting it in though. He was talking about 5.5 and 5.0 teaching pros fudging on there NTRP to play league tennis at the 4.5 level. I thought he was questioning the integrity of someone would do that kind if thing in their own field of work. Right?

Right, andfor. I've had plenty of great teachers that were probably 4.0 at best. I do like for my tennis coaches and teachers to have a bit of substance to their character. Otherwise, how can I trust them to be honest with me.
 

burosky

Professional
Right, andfor. I've had plenty of great teachers that were probably 4.0 at best. I do like for my tennis coaches and teachers to have a bit of substance to their character. Otherwise, how can I trust them to be honest with me.

I apologize for misinterpretting your post.
 

andfor

Legend
Right, andfor. I've had plenty of great teachers that were probably 4.0 at best. I do like for my tennis coaches and teachers to have a bit of substance to their character. Otherwise, how can I trust them to be honest with me.

For me the same applies not only on this subject but with others in most all circumstances and walks of life..............
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
It is amazing how much sandbagging i see in the league tennis i play in.These are supposed to be adults+ they are cheating as much as they can.Pretty sad isnt it, i bet they go home+ tell their children to not tell lies to.
 

CAM178

Hall of Fame
To the OP: welcome to USTA League tennis, or as I like to call it: Sandbagger's Heaven. It's rampant.
 
Why is a coach or instructor who is rated at 3.5 a joke? I know a few who are only 3.5 because of physical limitations. Some due to medical and some just plain got old. Pick their brains though and you will find a wealth of tennis information.

It is only recent when the USPTA required potential certified coaches to be a at a certain NTRP level to qualify for a specific certification rating. Regardless though, the testing is the same for all applicants. If you fail any of the written or on-court test, you don't get certified even at the P3 level. You have to pass all at the P3 level at least. This is nothing to sneeze at.

When I went for my certification, there was a D1 college player who failed because although he was excellent in stroke production, he didn't cut it for the individual or group lesson test. On the flip side, there is this old guy who barely passed the stroke production but excelled in the individual or group lesson test. Guess who got certified.

It's not all about the level of play. You want a coach who can coach or an instructor who can teach - not necessarily one who can play with you.

i bet nick bolliterri is a 3.5 at best right now
 

nickolaika

New User
To the OP: welcome to USTA League tennis, or as I like to call it: Sandbagger's Heaven. It's rampant.

I've been passively trying to join this Sandbagger's Heaven for over a year now. I haven't paid the fee since I can't find a team in Atlanta. Sandbagging is a common problem in any league I've played but who cares - let's have fun.

--------------
Nick [www.36x78.com]
 

CAM178

Hall of Fame
I've been passively trying to join this Sandbagger's Heaven for over a year now. I haven't paid the fee since I can't find a team in Atlanta. Sandbagging is a common problem in any league I've played but who cares - let's have fun.
I don't care about it, but I don't play leagues. I'd rather play tournaments. And did you say you can't find a team in Atlanta? Are you talking USTA or ALTA? Contact both offices (right there in Atlanta) and explain to them your situation. You should be on a team inside of a week in ATL.
 

shintan17

Semi-Pro
Wow...I am surprised this topic is still alive...LOL..

Well, I think Matt can be a solid 5.5, if he plays every year and more tournaments. Dunno why he skipped 06, though.

I guess this just shows you people love winning and some do whatever it takes for it...
 
Wow...I am surprised this topic is still alive...LOL..

Well, I think Matt can be a solid 5.5, if he plays every year and more tournaments. Dunno why he skipped 06, though.

I guess this just shows you people love winning and some do whatever it takes for it...

what are you talking about? i agree matt is a 5.5, but your statement

" I guess this just shows you people love winning and some do whatever it takes for it..."

what are you talking about???
 

CAM178

Hall of Fame
what are you talking about? i agree matt is a 5.5, but your statement
" I guess this just shows you people love winning and some do whatever it takes for it..."
what are you talking about???
Because this guy is a 5.5, and he's played in a 4.5 league. That's not right. I think that's what shintan was saying.
 
look first of all his 4.5 year was 2003, and he had a bunch of close matches

he was then bumped to 5.0.

in 2004 playing 5.0 he went 3 wins 4 loses
in 2005 playing 5.0 he went 13-3 , much improved
missed 2006
in 2007 he went 5-2

in the mid atlantic there really is not but 1 or 2 teams at the 5.5 level so playing 5.0 is where he should be.

yes he played 4.5 his 1st year then got bumped. big deal.
 

CAM178

Hall of Fame
look first of all his 4.5 year was 2003, and he had a bunch of close matches
he was then bumped to 5.0.
in 2004 playing 5.0 he went 3 wins 4 loses
in 2005 playing 5.0 he went 13-3 , much improved
missed 2006
in 2007 he went 5-2
in the mid atlantic there really is not but 1 or 2 teams at the 5.5 level so playing 5.0 is where he should be.
yes he played 4.5 his 1st year then got bumped. big deal.
I don't think anyone's getting upset about this, dude. All we're saying is that he probably shouldn't have played 4.5 at all. He played D1 college ball, so he's not a 4.5 player. That being said, he's not alone, and guys are sandbagging at all levels. Hell, I've done it before, so I have no reason to b*itch about it. My opinion? F**k it. People are always going to break the rules.
 
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