LovelyTennisNut
New User
i bet it was a friend of his that was a captain of the team that convinced him to play 4.5 . its funny cause his 4.5 team won nationals that year.
USTA league is just full of....
- Thread starter shintan17
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LuckyR
Legend
I would consider this for a different player at a different level, but the #1 player in the country being unfamiliar with the guidelines? I'm not buying it. The guy is a loser, I don't care what his rating is or past accomplishments in tennis are, as a person, he's a loser...
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Judgmental much? Because he sandbagged in tennis, that makes him a loser as a person? That's a bit dramatic and uncalled for.
shintan17
Semi-Pro
I've never played in the league, but if one of my CLOSE friends or even relatives asked me to join their...let's say 3.0 team (I am a 4.0, BTW), so her/his team could go to all the way to the Nationals and win it, I wouldn't even do it. I would rather question for her/his motivation, but I understand some people just love winning and helping a friend out...that's Matt probably did, I am sure he had a reason for it...or he seriously had no idea how good he was?? which I doubt.
But...no big deal...I was just surprised because never thought D-I all-conference players would play in 4.5s, but now I know it happens everywhere...so...
But...no big deal...I was just surprised because never thought D-I all-conference players would play in 4.5s, but now I know it happens everywhere...so...
LuckyR
Legend
A couple of things: first, you voiced your opinion which I respect. Second, I don't feel calling someone a "loser" in this context is not all that "dramatic" of a statement, nor is tremendously insulting, your experience seems to differ (perhaps a lesser word in your community would be more accurate of the message I'm trying to get across). Lastly, true, I don't have much tolerance for someone who goes out of their way to deprive others of the enjoyment in life they are due. Again, if Joe citizen is a 4.5 and plays 4.0, that guy is the classic sandbagger (of which there are thousands) or is an innocent mistake (unlikely but OK twist my arm, I'll pretend to believe it). But this guy was ranked #1 in the country, he knows what's what.
It used to be said in certain circles in Victorian England that the aristocracy could get away with just about any transgression, save one: cheating at cards. I'd put this in that category.
I do NOT believe cheating is rampant. It does sound like the guy referred to by the original poster IS playing too low. However, I think MOST players that are really out of level get DQed at some point during the season. The very few that do not get DQed get pushed up at the end of the year.
The complainers FAR, FAR out number the players really out of level. A lot of players do not understand the NTRP levels. They think they do, but really they do not. So when they get beat badly they complain their opponent was out of level. For better or worse the NTRP levels are very broad (by design) and players at the top of a level can beat players at the low end of a level pretty badly. That's going to happen every year.
I know someone who loves tennis. They are also very humble. They are usually top ranked for their age group in their section of the US, up until the last year or two in that age group, but they are getting a bit older now.
This person once discussed how he was sad that there were no 5.0 leagues in the area (he was then a 5.0). A few of us think that someone on whatever committee helps with rankings overheard this, and downrated him to a 4.5 to let him play on their own team. We don't know this for sure, but it seems logical.
As someone who loves tennis, and who is quite modest, this person assumed it was legit, and played on that team (a senior team) along with a normal 4.5 team, without even considering the idea of sandbagging. He knew the players, he just wanted to play tennis.
He won most or all of his own matches, including his match against the team that won it all in the 4.5's. He was moved back to 5.0 (I think 5.5 would be more appropriate).
Was he sandbagging? I doubt it. Either a person made a mistake, or the system did. There are many situations where you *think* someone might be sandbagging where they aren't. Why not just enjoy the competition, and suck it up?
This person once discussed how he was sad that there were no 5.0 leagues in the area (he was then a 5.0). A few of us think that someone on whatever committee helps with rankings overheard this, and downrated him to a 4.5 to let him play on their own team. We don't know this for sure, but it seems logical.
As someone who loves tennis, and who is quite modest, this person assumed it was legit, and played on that team (a senior team) along with a normal 4.5 team, without even considering the idea of sandbagging. He knew the players, he just wanted to play tennis.
He won most or all of his own matches, including his match against the team that won it all in the 4.5's. He was moved back to 5.0 (I think 5.5 would be more appropriate).
Was he sandbagging? I doubt it. Either a person made a mistake, or the system did. There are many situations where you *think* someone might be sandbagging where they aren't. Why not just enjoy the competition, and suck it up?
I'm of the opinion that so many players are out of level that things appear somewhat normal. Only the really, really out of level players get bumped up for the most part.
I just wrote the following and posted it on another thread. Thought it fit the topic. I've discussed this very thing often here.
"Many, many club pros and former D1 players are playing the 4.5 level across the US. Overall the NTRP System has better players playing at lower levels across the board verses 10 years ago or so. 4.5 today is 5.0 from ten years ago as 5.0 now was 5.5 and so on. It's kind of weird in that if you want to play team tennis and rate yourself accordingly you will get killed in league play. If you play with your peers and others of like ability, as what has happend with the NTRP system you'll find more even matches if you follow the masses as approved by the USTA.
I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way USTA League play is across the board. I will say the USTA has done a poor job with the rating of players and an even worse job allowing tournament play for adults to die and be replaced by league tennis.
League tennis overall is a good place to get your competitive tennis fill. However it's not for everyone. With the death of tournaments (lack of adult tournaments) in the U.S. higher level adult players 5.0 - 6.0 have been forced if they want to play cometitive tennis to the most available out let, USTA League Tennis".
I just wrote the following and posted it on another thread. Thought it fit the topic. I've discussed this very thing often here.
"Many, many club pros and former D1 players are playing the 4.5 level across the US. Overall the NTRP System has better players playing at lower levels across the board verses 10 years ago or so. 4.5 today is 5.0 from ten years ago as 5.0 now was 5.5 and so on. It's kind of weird in that if you want to play team tennis and rate yourself accordingly you will get killed in league play. If you play with your peers and others of like ability, as what has happend with the NTRP system you'll find more even matches if you follow the masses as approved by the USTA.
I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way USTA League play is across the board. I will say the USTA has done a poor job with the rating of players and an even worse job allowing tournament play for adults to die and be replaced by league tennis.
League tennis overall is a good place to get your competitive tennis fill. However it's not for everyone. With the death of tournaments (lack of adult tournaments) in the U.S. higher level adult players 5.0 - 6.0 have been forced if they want to play cometitive tennis to the most available out let, USTA League Tennis".
fe6250
Semi-Pro
I don't agree with you on this point - although this may be MORE true on this board / thread than in the broader tennis community. This board / thread represents a small slice of the tennis playing community and probably a slice that is very interested in league tennis, so not surprising that more would have an opinion. In reality - "complainers" (although I don't think that is a reasonable term as many have a legitimate beef) may out number "cheaters" - BUT clearly they don't outnumber those that are 'out of level'. IMHO - it is likely true that most of the USTA players playing today are not at the level the USTA originally intended most of us to be playing at as others have expressed on this thread. So - it is my opinion that MOST players are 'out of level' vs. what the USTA intended - but that doesn't make them cheaters.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
And I respect you back. And I guess each person has their own definition of a loser. To me, a loser is the guy who pops kids balloons at a fair, or the person who abuses animals, etc. I didn't mean to upset you, but calling someone a 'loser' is a pretty harsh label where I come from. A 'loser' should have done something pretty despicable, and sandbagging in league tennis, to me, isn't worthy of such a label.
ZPTennis
Semi-Pro
I live in an area with lots of tennis but there are no 5.0 divisions. 4.5 is the highest. So that is what I play in. I must admit, I am probably considered a 5.0, but there are other 4.5's in my division who also could be 5.0. I play in it because I want to have fun. Not to sandbag. And since there are already so many good players in it to begin with, the competition is pretty equal.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
That is another problem that the USTA can't really do anything about: areas with 5.0 players, but not enough of them to warrant a 5.0 league. ZP, you're lucky to have enough guys like you who can keep it fun and challenging.
As stated, I'm guiltier than sin as far as this whole sandbagging thing goes, as I'm rated a 3.5 in the computer, and have been for years. I do not, however, play in singles or even men's leagues. I only play mixed, and even then only when I am asked. And I never play full-out in mixed, as I'd get dq'd in a NY minute.
Actually you wouldnt get DQ'ed because they do not DQ players from mixed.
You may get a 4.0 rating though at the end of the year. (a mixed exclusive rating)
So there we have it, if you are playing in mixed, it's perfect okay to sandbag apparently. You are a lot braver then me.
You should make it fun, and ask the other team how many games they would like to win before the match begins. (fun for you anyway)
Just like I said............I also know of a case where a 5.0 lived hundreds of miles (literally) away from the nearest town that had a 5.0 team. The Southern's allowed him to appeal down to 4.5 because there was not 5.0's (supposedly) in his area. He kicked everyones ass. Got moved up later that year after his team won state and sectionals.
i've been playing league tennis for the past 13+ years now. for the entire time i've been rated 4.0 - never moved down and never bumped up. my game is light years ahead of where i was when i first started playing league tennis but i may never get bumped up because 4.5 level is occupied by mostly former college players and pros. but it doesn't bother me. i blame the USTA and to a lesser degree the growing popularity of tennis. i think we have a larger and larger population of these former college players and pros but they really have nowhere and no one to play. i'd love if they had a competitive league or level (you can call it Open if you like) where these guys can play and get similar competition.
each NTRP rating level has a huge range of ability from the weakest players at that level to the strongest at that level. and they overlap to some degree with the next rating levels. but the range of ability from the worst 4.5 player to the best 4.5 player is HUGE. i sometimes feel like 4.5 means "anywhere from 4.5 to 7.0"
each NTRP rating level has a huge range of ability from the weakest players at that level to the strongest at that level. and they overlap to some degree with the next rating levels. but the range of ability from the worst 4.5 player to the best 4.5 player is HUGE. i sometimes feel like 4.5 means "anywhere from 4.5 to 7.0"
Huh??? Aren't you the same guy who's playing in a M30 National HC tourney?
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Yep. Guilty as charged. Which is why I can't really say too much about this. I do, however, think it's unfair for guys like me to play 4.0-4.5 league tennis, as I have seen over and over again.
And just FYI: I don't play in any league tennis, except mixed. And even in mixed, I only play at 50-70%.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
I didn't know that about no DQ for mixed, so thanks for that. That will undoubtedly make my mixed team happy.Actually you wouldnt get DQ'ed because they do not DQ players from mixed.
You may get a 4.0 rating though at the end of the year. (a mixed exclusive rating)
So there we have it, if you are playing in mixed, it's perfect okay to sandbag apparently. You are a lot braver then me.
You should make it fun, and ask the other team how many games they would like to win before the match begins. (fun for you anyway)
If I get bumped, it would be high time. I can't believe that the computer still has me at 3.5, after some of the tournament results I've had (beating nationally ranked guys and college players).
I'm not proud of sandbagging. I know it's not okay. I'm only doing it to help friends (that's my rationale, and I'm sticking to it!).
It's funny as to what happens in mixed: eventually during a changeover in every match, the other team will tell me 'We know you're not trying your hardest.' And I always have the same response: 'Ahh, I'm just out here to have fun, and this is a lot of fun for me.'
How did you get the 3.5 rating in the first place?
cam - i think most people want to play a match with a reasonable expectation that they have a shot of winning if they compete and play well. you at 50-70% means at any given moment you can turn it on and make the outcome completely one-sided. if it's a social game - no biggie. but not everyone who plays league tennis feels that way.
me? i got a loving wife, beautiful baby, great family. i play tennis for fun and i play on a team that drinks beer before, during and after the match. but again there are people who go crazy knowing their best isn't even close to your D game.
personally i'd love to run into you and do my best to at least make you play 80% though.
me? i got a loving wife, beautiful baby, great family. i play tennis for fun and i play on a team that drinks beer before, during and after the match. but again there are people who go crazy knowing their best isn't even close to your D game.
personally i'd love to run into you and do my best to at least make you play 80% though.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Now THIS is the type of player I enjoy playing against! You have a great outlook, mate. And you are out there for fun, which is the ONLY reason I play mixed. You are right about me turning it on, but it is really only if we're getting killed (usually the other team, for obvious reasons, will focus on my partner in mixed), or if I feel the guy or the other team as a whole is unfairly picking on my partner.cam - i think most people want to play a match with a reasonable expectation that they have a shot of winning if they compete and play well. you at 50-70% means at any given moment you can turn it on and make the outcome completely one-sided. if it's a social game - no biggie. but not everyone who plays league tennis feels that way.
me? i got a loving wife, beautiful baby, great family. i play tennis for fun and i play on a team that drinks beer before, during and after the match. but again there are people who go crazy knowing their best isn't even close to your D game.
personally i'd love to run into you and do my best to at least make you play 80% though.
kylebarendrick
Professional
2 months ago I played against a former 4.5 who took a few years off, self-rated at 3.5 and is now only playing mixed. My partner and I played well, but only managed to win 3 games against this "3.5" and his partner. Yeah, he took it easy and kept the games close, but always managed the key shot when needed.
Was the match fun? It was OK if a little frustrating. The downside is that my captain hasn't put me in the lineup since. A lopsided loss to a sandbagger has at least played a role in ending my mixed season. That part isn't fun.
Was the match fun? It was OK if a little frustrating. The downside is that my captain hasn't put me in the lineup since. A lopsided loss to a sandbagger has at least played a role in ending my mixed season. That part isn't fun.
LuckyR
Legend
What do you mean by "unfair"?
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Why do I get the feeling that you're setting me up? I'll take the bait anyways.
By unfair, I mean that (in most circumstances) they should play at the correct level, i.e. 5.0 league. But since that is not always available, hence my previous mention of absence of 5.0 in New England, some of these guys have to play 4.5 just to get some tennis matches. When I say 'unfair', this is merely hypothetical. Not all 5.0 guys playing down play singles, and even if they do, I know that some play down in ability as well, just as I do in mixed when I play.But you're going to say something not nice, aren't you, LuckyR?
CAM178
Hall of Fame
LOL. I like your sense of humor.hahaha. i'll bite cam178. when you play mixed -- do you ever lose?
Believe it or not, we lose a LOT. It's because the other team, as they should, focuses on my partner. I can poach and take balls only so much. But when my partner is a 3.0, it makes it difficult.I'll tell you what the best is: when my partner blames me for us losing the match. That happened a couple of times last year, but nothing major, and it was resolved over beers afterwards.
But I played and won a men's dubs tourney (4.5 tourney, so yes, I was guilty again), and my partner (in the 3d set, in the finals, no less) literally yelled "WHAT THE F***!!" at me when I missed a FH volley long. My jaw just dropped, and I couldn't believe it. I've NEVER had anybody talk to me like that on court. And he SUCKED as a player. Did I say anything about his FH's going into the backdrop? Or when he double faulted? Or when his BH's hit the netting in b/tw courts? No. Because you don't do that in dubs. You're there to support your partner. It's the only time I've ever been so pissed at a player that I never talked to them as a person off-court ever again. And it was magnified by the fact that I did him a big favor in business and he never thanked me for it.
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Ohhh, sounds like a bad doubles player. It always amuses me how people actually get mad at their partners. It's one thing to feel a little annoyed, but verbal jabs and glares reek of amateur and unsportsmanlike behavior.
When I somehow end up with partners like this, I will purposely lose points solely to get on their nerves if they start up with me.
When I somehow end up with partners like this, I will purposely lose points solely to get on their nerves if they start up with me.
cam -- haha. awesome. yeah i play 7.0 mixed right now and it's very challenging. most difficult is trying to help my 3.0 partners hold serve. only so much poaching you can do if the serve puts zero pressure on the returner. also fun trying to cover as many overheads as humanly possible.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
tfm: or trying to dodge bullets at the net because your partner is putting in powder puff serves. That's fun to be constantly blocking your nads as the missiles approach. LOL. . . last year this kept happening in a match, and I finally looked at the other guy (while laughing) and joked 'You do know I want to have kids, right? Stop trying to Bob Barker me!' Everyone laughed.
LuckyR
Legend
Why do I get the feeling that you're setting me up? I'll take the bait anyways.
But you're going to say something not nice, aren't you, LuckyR?
Aaahh... that's your conscience talking to you, not me. I was just seeking clarification. I guess others were aware of your 5.0 status, but I was not.
Most on this board would love to have the problem of being so good that there isn't anyone of our calibre in our area to play against. As an aside, when you team up with a 3.0 for doubles then you guys are a legit 8.0 double team and you can compete 100% of your effort with a clear conscience. I would be suprised if there wasn't 8.0, 9.0 and maybe even 10.0 doubles leagues in your area.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
LOL. . . I know, it is my conscience.
I'm a bit nervous on here because some people can be pretty left-wing about some issues. League play is one of those issues.I do not claim to be so good that I can't find other players in my area. Far from it. This town is loaded with players who would kill me. But remember to read what I wrote: I am only playing mixed, and it is only because some friends asked me to join their team. I think I played either 7.0 or 8.0, I can't remember which.
Maybe without experiencing it. It is not fun. I can't wait to move :sad:
Note: There are certainly players at or above my calibre, they are just busy on college teams or spend all day teaching tennis. Or they play somewhere I don't have access to.
I didn't know that about no DQ for mixed, so thanks for that. That will undoubtedly make my mixed team happy.
If I get bumped, it would be high time. I can't believe that the computer still has me at 3.5, after some of the tournament results I've had (beating nationally ranked guys and college players).
I'm not proud of sandbagging. I know it's not okay. I'm only doing it to help friends (that's my rationale, and I'm sticking to it!).
It's funny as to what happens in mixed: eventually during a changeover in every match, the other team will tell me 'We know you're not trying your hardest.' And I always have the same response: 'Ahh, I'm just out here to have fun, and this is a lot of fun for me.'
A lot of tournaments dont count toward your NTRP rating either, it depends on your section rules.
At least you didnt send your partner off the court and take over the whole match like when I played 6.0 mixed.
Although he was a nice guy otherwise, so I had fun talking to him afterwards.
I do think he is ******** for rating himself at 3.0, but it's still amazing that he was able to pull that off, no matter how good he is. (he went from being down 1-5 to my partner and I to winning 7-6, 6-1)
I think sandbaggers are ****s for doing so, but at least sometimes you can respect someone for being a good player, versus the ones who are just pure knobs about it. (like the ones who cheat on top of it, or bring their entire family with them as a cheering section, where they even cheer when you hit the ball into the net, along with a lot of other things that make them weird to deal with)
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Did that really happen to you? Oh wow, man. If so, that player deserves to have multiple overheads hit at them for that. And I would probably 'accidentally' shank one into the stands for that kind of behavior.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
I'm right there with you. That's what I had to go through when I moved to rural NH for 3 years. I was playing great tennis. . . .when I could find enough tournaments to play in. But I wanted regular hitting partners, and I couldn't find them. thusly my move to Texas. Good luck, WBF. It's definitely worth the move.
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