USTA League Nationals start in four days

Yeah, I'm also one of the folks that like leagues a lot. The scheduling just works better than anything else.

With leagues, I sign up, get the schedule for the next 12 weeks, mark what matches I'm available, and that's all I need to do. Show up, play, and I can schedule around the match times.

With tournaments, the scheduling is all unpredictable. I'd have to leave the entire weekend free because I wouldn't know when I'm playing until the day before; and matches might not be at times I want to play.

There's also just manually arranging matches with people. It's fun, but it just takes so much emailing/organizing to keep setting up singles matches with different players each week! I find that it ends up in a rut where I keep playing the same people all the time, just based on whose schedule aligns with mine.

So for me leagues are the best way to get a whole bunch of competitive matches, more fun than any of the other options. Maybe at 5.0 or above leagues don't work either, but here at 4.5 I don't run into any difficulty getting quality matches in local leagues, and haven't run into any issues with "fairness" either.
 
I agree with everything @Max G. said.

What I like about tournaments:
- Seems to draw the more competitive guys
- There's a certain energy that is lacking in league
- I can watch other matches: friends or scouting a next round
- There's more speculation because I know who my next round opponent is [much of which might be counter-productive]
- There's a certain amount of ego involved when you show up for a later round and you're still in the hunt [yes, I admit it]
- Everything is concentrated into a few days
- I can watch the Open division
 
Well, those pivotal 7:30 AM matches in the men's 3.5 matches are done now. PNW upset the Caribbean 3-2. MoValley beat Mid-Atlantic 4-1. And Southern not only beat Intermountain in the late match last night, but took out Northern 4-1 this morning.

This means that there are only 4 undefeated teams left: Southern, MoValley, Texas, and SoCal.
  • Southern is 3-0 and plays 1-2 MidAtlantic, who is out of the running for semis.
  • MoValley is 3-0 and plays 2-1 New England, who they should beat.
  • Texas is 2-0 and plays 1-1 Intermountain and 1-1 Eastern, where they should be heavy favorites over both.
  • SoCal is 2-0 and plays 0-2 Middle States and 0-2 Southwest, who both are out of the semis picture.
I guess the only nail biter would be that MoValley/New England matchup, which starts in about 30 minutes. If New England wins, that would open the door for NorCal (who is 2-1 and plays 0-3 Northern) or Caribbean (who is 2-1 and plays 0-3 Hawaii). New England even has a chance, if they posted a 5-0 win. A close loss by MoValley, and they would be 3-1 and in that mashup. A lot rides on that score.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
What I like about tournaments:
- Seems to draw the more competitive guys
...
Click to expand...

I love tournaments, so I'm not trying to start a disagreement by any means. However, where I'm at, there are a lot of great players that only play USTA League. That has led to a few situations where I've been the #1 ranked player in my Section based on tournament play, but I'm not even the best player on my USTA League team. :oops:
 
Jack the Hack said:
I love tournaments, so I'm not trying to start a disagreement by any means. However, where I'm at, there are a lot of great players that only play USTA League. That has led to a few situations where I've been the #1 ranked player in my Section based on tournament play, but I'm not even the best player on my USTA League team. :oops:
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I used to play a ton of USTA tournaments too when i first joined and this was my experience too. The players in league were far better that in my tournaments. I stopped because the draws kept getting smaller and smaller. Maybe when tournaments were more popular the best players flocked to them.
 
Just in...

In men's 3.5, MoValley got swept in singles, but won all three of the doubles matches in straight sets to beat New England. That means that they finish the round robin 4-0 and are the first to qualify for the semifinals.

Meanwhile, Texas beat Intermountain 5-0 and have still not lost a match. They've only dropped 4 sets total, and have won 69% of the games in their matches.
 
We only play a handful of matches here in the Southern division at the higher levels. It’s normally tough to get in the two required matches just to get to State. It’s just a couple of semi competitive doubles matches for a whole season. If League play is all that you do around here it is understood that your tennis will suffer. Leaves us being creative in terms of playing, hitting with upper level juniors and collegiate players as much as possible. This is why I am hoping for some decent tournaments to play in.
 
USPTARF97 said:
Where is the Southern Division team from?
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Looks like Monroe, Louisiana. They came from a local league that only had one other team. They got through a decent Lousiana district, went undefeated in pool play at Sectionals, and knocked off a North Carolina team to advance to Nationals.

I would imagine that not all areas in Southern as sparse. For example, I bet the competition to get out of Atlanta or some of the cities in North Carolina could be fierce, regardless of level.
 
Jack the Hack said:
Well, those pivotal 7:30 AM matches in the men's 3.5 matches are done now. PNW upset the Caribbean 3-2. MoValley beat Mid-Atlantic 4-1. And Southern not only beat Intermountain in the late match last night, but took out Northern 4-1 this morning.

This means that there are only 4 undefeated teams left: Southern, MoValley, Texas, and SoCal.
  • Southern is 3-0 and plays 1-2 MidAtlantic, who is out of the running for semis.
  • MoValley is 3-0 and plays 2-1 New England, who they should beat.
  • Texas is 2-0 and plays 1-1 Intermountain and 1-1 Eastern, where they should be heavy favorites over both.
  • SoCal is 2-0 and plays 0-2 Middle States and 0-2 Southwest, who both are out of the semis picture.
I guess the only nail biter would be that MoValley/New England matchup, which starts in about 30 minutes. If New England wins, that would open the door for NorCal (who is 2-1 and plays 0-3 Northern) or Caribbean (who is 2-1 and plays 0-3 Hawaii). New England even has a chance, if they posted a 5-0 win. A close loss by MoValley, and they would be 3-1 and in that mashup. A lot rides on that score.
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Thanks for the update.

I would not call PNW beating Caribbean 3-2 an upset, my simulation had PNW rated quite a bit higher, it would have taken Caribbean's ratings being way artificially low for them to be favored.

Looking like a nice clean four 4-0 teams.
 
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NorCal and Carib are tied on lines, sets lost and games lost... who advances if they are the 4th team standing? They are really hoping Southern and SoCal win our to bail them out.

One can’t really handicap Caribbean.
 
lostinamerica said:
NorCal and Carib are tied on lines, sets lost and games lost... who advances if they are the 4th team standing? They are really hoping Southern and SoCal win our to bail them out.

One can’t really handicap Caribbean.
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They go to percent of games won, NorCal leads in that stat. Note that they won 3 more sets (should be used earlier in the tie-breakers but is never used), and 15 more games (should be explicitly used earlier, implicitly is as part of game winning percentage) so they are the more deserving team should it come down to that.

But, SoCal went and lost a match! We will now not have 4 undefeated teams. The simulation said it was a slim chance of that despite the possibilities this morning ...

SoCal should still make the semis though, the only courts they lost are in the team loss and are 12-3 on courts. If they win their last just 3-2, they are at 15-5 and ahead of NorCal and Caribbean. With Southern 3-0 they could still finish 4-0 knocking Caribbean out.
 
@schmke You beat me to it on the SoCal scoreline. Two of their three losses were in 3rd set breakers. I didn't analyze their lineup, but I wonder if they underestimated the formerly 0-2 Middle States?
 
Jack the Hack said:
@schmke You beat me to it on the SoCal scoreline. Two of their three losses were in 3rd set breakers. I didn't analyze their lineup, but I wonder if they underestimated the formerly 0-2 Middle States?
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I haven't looked closely yet either, will in a bit, but I almost wonder if they with with a 10-0 courts record they could afford a loss and played lower rated players. And they can still avoid playing Texas in the semis so perhaps they don't really care about the loss.
 
Jack the Hack said:
@schmke You beat me to it on the SoCal scoreline. Two of their three losses were in 3rd set breakers. I didn't analyze their lineup, but I wonder if they underestimated the formerly 0-2 Middle States?
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Yeah, they ran out a weak roster on two courts, and lost one pick'em match.

The won 1S as expected, played a weaker play on 2S and lost as expected, won 1D against a sacrificed pair, lost the pick'em match (Middle States was 0.01 higher) against Middle States best pair, and then played a weaker pair on 3D and lost close as expected (0.03 underdogs).

Now, they've only played 10 guys so far, but their weakest two were in this line-up against Middle States and kinda got beat due to Middle States stacking.
 
If I'm reading the updated results for the 3.5 guys, the semifinals are Texas (4-0, 1st place in standings) vs SoCal (3-1, 4th), and Southern (4-0, 2nd) vs MoValley (4-0, 4th).

NorCal, Caribbean, and PNW finish 3-1, and #5-6-7 in the standings.
 
2ndServe said:
Thanks, any tips on playing in the humidity? Luckily I don't grind but playing 2 matches in that weather might be tiresome. More importantly good places to eat right after the match.
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Sorry for the delay, not on here too often.

Yes and no on the humidity. There is something to just being acclimated to it, but there is a mental aspect of just pushing through. You really need to hydrate, and I mean in the days leading up to the matches. It's not as easy when you're not used to it. Also, Gatorade isn't necessarily your friend. You need to drink a lot of water when you play, and after. A lot of people who do choose Gatorade for their electrolytes will start adding water to the bottle to dilute it down. I've seen as many people with stomachaches due to over using Gatorade than actual cramps.

Grips, bring extra overgrips. take extra hats, shirts, etc for your match. But most importantly, don't over think it. Just remember to drink water and play. I've seen westerners play in the South and let the humidity mentally affect them. Just push through and play your game.
 
The semifinal scores for men's 3.5 just posted in TennisLink:

Texas beat SoCal 3-2, which sounds close. However, the three lines that Texas won had score lines of 6-2, 6-0; 6-0, 6-0; and 6-3, 7-5. One of their two losses was in a 3rd set breaker, which I imagine might have been after the match was decided.

MoValley also beat Southern by a 3-2 score, which was worthy of a close National semifinal by the individual score lines. Three of the five matches went to 3rd set breakers, with MoValley winning two of them, and they also got 2nd singles in straight sets.

The turn around is quick on the finals day, with basically no break between matches. That would seem to give Texas an advantage, as if they didn't already have one.

Is any member of this board actually at the site that is willing to give an overview of what you are seeing?
 
In the women's 5.0 semifinals, Middle States beat NorCal 2-1 in a match decided by a 3rd set breaker. In the other semifinal, Southwest beat MidAtlantic 2-1, with what looks like an injury retirement factored in. Southwest got #2 dubs in straight sets, and MidAtlantic got the singles point in a 3rd set breaker. At the #1 dubs position, MidAtlantic won the first set 6-1 and were up 2-0 in the second, but retired from the match, giving the victory to Southwest. I hope the injured or ill player is going to be alright. I can only image it must be serious to retire from deciding match in a National semifinal with the lead.

Does anyone have details on what happened?
 
In the men's 5.0 semifinals, Southern beat Southwest 2-1, with the match decided by a 3rd set breaker. They will play Texas, who also won 2-1 over MidAtlantic in a 3rd set breaker decider. This is exactly what you want at Nationals... teams battling it out with close competition and matches decided by a few points. Double bagels and 6-2, 6-0 scores really shouldn't be happening in the semifinals if the competition is level and fair.
 
And not to leave the 3.5 ladies out, only one of the semifinal scores has posted so far, but Eastern beat Florida 3-2, with all of their wins in straight sets. Caribbean is playing Middle States in the other semifinal, but they aren't in TennisLink yet.

EDIT: The other ladie's 3.5 semifinal posted, and Middle States beat the Caribbean 3-2, with a 3rd set tiebreaker deciding the match.
 
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Jack the Hack said:
In the men's 5.0 semifinals, Southern beat Southwest 2-1, with the match decided by a 3rd set breaker. They will play Texas, who also won 2-1 over Mid-Atlantic in a 3rd set breaker decider. This is exactly what you want at Nationals... teams battling it out with close competition and matches decided by a few points. Double bagels and 6-2, 6-0 scores really shouldn't be happening in the semifinals if the competition is level and fair.
Click to expand...
Agree with you in general, but if a team has to play weaker players(s) and stacks, a lopsided score might be expected.
 
Jack the Hack said:
Is any member of this board actually at the site that is willing to give an overview of what you are seeing?
Click to expand...
I'm not there, but I know the kid who played #2 singles for Missouri Valley placed third in the Kansas state tournament this year. He was able to self rate at 3.5 because he hadn't been to state before that. Their other singles player was also on the same tennis team this year. Neither is a real 3.5 player.

It will be interesting to see how bad the Texas guys beat them. A real indication of how bad it is.
 
So what you are saying is Missouri Valley and Texas is playing fast and loose with the rules? Per usual, it sounds like cheating for me and not for thee...

This is a reason I quit taking any USTA league serious and just play. Cheaters gonna cheat and gets upset if someone out games the system.
 
Jack the Hack said:
The semifinal scores for men's 3.5 just posted in TennisLink:

Texas beat SoCal 3-2, which sounds close. However, the three lines that Texas won had score lines of 6-2, 6-0; 6-0, 6-0; and 6-3, 7-5. One of their two losses was in a 3rd set breaker, which I imagine might have been after the match was decided.

MoValley also beat Southern by a 3-2 score, which was worthy of a close National semifinal by the individual score lines. Three of the five matches went to 3rd set breakers, with MoValley winning two of them, and they also got 2nd singles in straight sets.

The turn around is quick on the finals day, with basically no break between matches. That would seem to give Texas an advantage, as if they didn't already have one.

Is any member of this board actually at the site that is willing to give an overview of what you are seeing?
Click to expand...

While one of those losses was in 3... in fairness, they lost the first set 6-0. You might be right but I doubt you lose a first set 6-0 in the semis. Had they won the first set 6-0, it would look more like a tank job.
 
lostinamerica said:
While one of those losses was in 3... in fairness, they lost the first set 6-0. You might be right but I doubt you lose a first set 6-0 in the semis. Had they won the first set 6-0, it would look more like a tank job.
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I wasn't suggesting that they tanked it... just that the match probably didn't matter at that point. I would expect that the other matches were probably finished and the overall team win decided by the time they got to that breaker. There's no reason really for them to tank at this point since nobody can strike out at Nationals.
 
I see Texas won 3-2. The Kansas High School State semi-finalist beat the ‘4.5’ Texas player in 3 sets. I bet that was high level ‘3.5’ tennis.

I looked up the Kansas kid and I find it interesting that he was playing some 16s last year and adults this year. I guess he has a squirrelly birthday. Regardless, it looks like the notorious Houston teams and Kansas are pulling shenanigans.
 
BMRSNR27 said:
I'm not there, but I know the kid who played #2 singles for Missouri Valley placed third in the Kansas state tournament this year. He was able to self rate at 3.5 because he hadn't been to state before that. Their other singles player was also on the same tennis team this year. Neither is a real 3.5 player.

It will be interesting to see how bad the Texas guys beat them. A real indication of how bad it is.
Click to expand...

Finals scores just posted and Texas won it 3-2. The MoValley high school ringer you mentioned beat the guy with the 4.5 level DNTRP in a 3rd set breaker after dropping the first set 1-6. The three matches that Texas won were at #2 singles 6-1, 6-0 (over that other MoValley high school player), and at #1 and #3 doubles by scores of 7-6, 6-1 and 6-1, 6-4. MoValley got #2 dubs 6-3, 6-4.

Given that there are so many self rated guys involved, the ratings are probably worthless, but I'm curious to know how these shook out against @schmke's rating projections.
 
lostinamerica said:
I see Texas won 3-2. The Kansas High School State semi-finalist beat the ‘4.5’ Texas player in 3 sets. I bet that was high level ‘3.5’ tennis.

I looked up the Kansas kid and I find it interesting that he was playing some 16s last year and adults this year. I guess he has a squirrelly birthday. Regardless, it looks like the notorious Houston teams and Kansas are pulling shenanigans.
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The new USTA League rules for next year would probably preclude that kid from playing. The new rule is that you actually have to turn 18 before you can participate, not just be in the calendar year that you turn.

I wish there was video of the two singles matches. The Texas guy that crushed the other high school kid at #2 singles is self rated and has some interesting results. He was 4-4 in local league play, but was 8-1 in post season playoffs. The only playoff loss was a retirement from a match where he was leading 7-5, 5-1 and the team had won. He played 5 singles matches at Nationals, winning them all by scores of 6-2, 6-0; 6-0, 6-1; 6-4, 6-1; 6-2, 6-0; and 6-1, 6-0. That's a lot of bagels and breadsticks against the best "3.5s" in the country.
 
The Texas men also just won the 5.0 championship as well, taking out Southern 2-1. Looks like it came down to a 3rd set breaker at #2 doubles, where Texas made a comeback after dropping the first set 1-6.

(I recognize one of the names in the lineup as a top 10 ranked player back when I was playing 35 & over National tournaments. He was a 5.5 then, I believe.)
 
Middle States won the ladies 5.0 championship 2-1 over Southwest, grabbing two 3rd set breakers in the doubles spots for the title.
 
I’m sure the Houston Texas theme will continue next week over 40s 4.0. Same captain takes his 4.0 over 40 eam, with one of the 3.5 ringers to nationals, where in sure they will be the favorite again along with Intermountains Utah team.
 
Jack the Hack said:
Finals scores just posted and Texas won it 3-2. The MoValley high school ringer you mentioned beat the guy with the 4.5 level DNTRP in a 3rd set breaker after dropping the first set 1-6. The three matches that Texas won were at #2 singles 6-1, 6-0 (over that other MoValley high school player), and at #1 and #3 doubles by scores of 7-6, 6-1 and 6-1, 6-4. MoValley got #2 dubs 6-3, 6-4.

Given that there are so many self rated guys involved, the ratings are probably worthless, but I'm curious to know how these shook out against @schmke's rating projections.
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By the looks of it, the overall match was likely over when they completed #1 singles, so I don’t trust that result.
 
Jack the Hack said:
The Texas men also just won the 5.0 championship as well, taking out Southern 2-1. Looks like it came down to a 3rd set breaker at #2 doubles, where Texas made a comeback after dropping the first set 1-6.

(I recognize one of the names in the lineup as a top 10 ranked player back when I was playing 35 & over National tournaments. He was a 5.5 then, I believe.)
Click to expand...

It is 5.0 plus nationals, with 5.5's on the rosters.
 
BMRSNR27 said:
By the looks of it, the overall match was likely over when they completed #1 singles, so I don’t trust that result.
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You may be right but a state high school semi-finalist beating a 40s player in the AZ heat in a 3rd set isn’t just a big stretch.

I’m still perplexed how the kid played 16s last year and 18s adults while a state qualifier.. MoValley is as dirty at Houston.

I’m familiar with the Houston Captain and his notoriety but there are some red flags on that Kansas team too.
 
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lostinamerica said:
You may be right but a state high school semi-finalist beating a 40s player in the AZ heat in a 3rd set isn’t just a big stretch.

I’m still perplexed how the kid played 16s last year and 18s adults while a state qualifier.. MoValley is as dirty at Houston.

I’m familiar with the Houston Captain and his notoriety but there are some red flags on that Kansas team too.
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The Kansas captain has some notoriety for sure. They always have two teams in their league, one that heads to sectionals and one that has players to play against them. Some years they come with nothing, some they have a ton of ringers. From what I understand, every single team protested their high schooler, but he was "within the rules" when he signed up. They definitely find the gray area.

Most of the time, as you'll see in the typical results, Missouri Valley is pretty straight up. There's a ringer or two there, but definitely less than you see in Southern, So Cal, Texas, Nor Cal, etc.
 
BMRSNR27 said:
The Kansas captain has some notoriety for sure. They always have two teams in their league, one that heads to sectionals and one that has players to play against them. Some years they come with nothing, some they have a ton of ringers. From what I understand, every single team protested their high schooler, but he was "within the rules" when he signed up. They definitely find the gray area.

Most of the time, as you'll see in the typical results, Missouri Valley is pretty straight up. There's a ringer or two there, but definitely less than you see in Southern, So Cal, Texas, Nor Cal, etc.
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I should rephrase. This MoValley team has issues. I really didn’t mean the whole section. I see where the kid qualified for state as a Sophomore in doubles and then a state semi-finalist in singles as a Junior. He will be a Senior and probably a legitimate threat to win state. I’m not saying the Texas player purposely lost but a junior with that pedigree could have the firepower to comeback.

With Texas winning 5.0/3.5 this year, it appears Texas is in for a HUGE section bump up. The 4.0 men’s teams are very strong this year too. Our 4.5 men’s teams are not as strong as usual. I really don’t know much about 3.5 and below but from a glance, much of this TX 3.5 team is also on the 40s 3.5 team too.

I can’t disagree if the USTA does that. Regardless, most of Texas plays clean... it is just a few from Dallas, Houston and San Antonio playing 99% of the games.
 
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tennis_tater said:
It is 5.0 plus nationals, with 5.5's on the rosters.
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To be clear, I wasn't saying that the guy I recognized was sandbagging in 5.0+. He's legit. I'm just noting that the quality of the players in the final were strong given that he is a former top 10 nationally ranked player that used to be at least a 5.5. However, I guess it's already a given that any players in the National championship finals are good! :D

I have no problem with Texas winning the 5.0+ competition. That tournament had a bunch of very close matches, and Texas earned that title fair and square.
 
Jack the Hack said:
To be clear, I wasn't saying that the guy I recognized was sandbagging in 5.0+. He's legit. I'm just noting that the quality of the players in the final were strong given that he is a former top 10 nationally ranked player that used to be at least a 5.5. However, I guess it's already a given that any players in the National championship finals are good! :D

I have no problem with Texas winning the 5.0+ competition. That tournament had a bunch of very close matches, and Texas earned that title fair and square.
Click to expand...

There can be no complaints or whining about about sandbagging at that level. The same guys that play 5.0+ play the Open Invitational League. Kudos to them, they went undefeated playing against the best teams/players in the country.
 
tennis_tater said:
Predictions on next week's over 4.0 over 40's?

I'm going to go with

1. Texas
2. Intermountain
3. Southern
4. Missouri Valley
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Gotta go with Intermountain in Men's 4.0...the same Utah team is coming for 40 plus and 18 plus Nationals the next two weeks. Just looking at scores, they beat down everyone at both Sectionals and it wasn't competitive in either case...also looks like some of their top players were missing so expect them to be even stronger at Nationals. This has to be the best 4.5 team still playing in the 4.0 division ;)
 
Yeah, the Intermountain captain has a history of doing well at nationals - winning 3.5 last year, finishing third at 40s and going 3-1 on prior trip not making it out of flight. ONLY team to beat his teams were the eventual champs from Texas. This IM team has the ringers from last years 3.5 winners, to go along with a number of former 4.5 bump downs. That said, Intermountain and Houston will be the favorite for both 4.0 18s and 40s.
 
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