USTA Leagues: Tweaks needed nationwide to improve excitement?

[GabeFSU]

Interested to see how USTA is evolving with the sport, esp at the adult league and junior level. I have captained USTA teams every year since '09, served on the Raleigh Tennis Assoc. Board in North Carolina.

I have seen a gradual decline in enthusiasm over local league play in the Raleigh-Durham-Cary area over the past decade. Registration numbers may appear up, due in large part by the same individuals registering in more divisions (18+, 40+, 55+) & the same players registering on teams in multiple neighboring areas.

However, I think the number of individuals playing in tennis leagues may be down, as I have seen many longtime opponents (who became friends) quit leagues & those who play become much less available as their team is out of contention.

I have 3 suggestions to make league play more Fun, Competitive & Engaging:
1 - A greater % of teams need to advance to local playoffs! USTA should encourage or mandate that at least 25-30% of teams advance to a local playoff.
2 - Limit the # of Self rated and/or out of area players eligible to play on a team. Locally we have experienced "super-teams" forming with the sole goal of getting to States & they are rostered mostly by out of area & self-rated players.
3 - National should consider a rule using ITF or disclose NTRP (with decimals) so captains may not play lower ranked individuals on a higher line. Heck, we could enter lineups online and they would be revealed to opponents at match time with computer auto re-ordering by rating.

The regular season local matches in our area have become cutthroat competitive. Lose 1 match and your team may be eliminated, lose 2 and your chances of advancing at the end of the year are virtually over.

This puts pressure on captains to play every match to win at ALL costs. This means often benching weaker players or sacrificing line 1 with your weakest player(s). This leads to less enjoyable tennis play & atmosphere. People are quitting leagues, defaulting lines, & dumping late season matches at alarming rates!

In high school & college you cannot put your worst player on line 1, so why can you do it in USTA?
Captains still have a ton of lineup strategies they can employ when it comes to pairings, who plays singles vs doubles etc. Our sport is better off with people playing matches “straight up” and allowing those who are a little weaker to participate and enjoy the experience. Why do captains feel the pressure to do it...because if they don't, their team may be out of contention early in the season with 2 months of league play left.

While I value high level competition, the fundamental USTA goals towards growing the sport we love are being lost. You CAN have both high level competition & growing enthusiasm! You can enhance the regular season by keeping more teams in-the hunt for playoffs & then make the playoff cutthroat competition. So while straight up lines may be an unlikely future, increasing # of playoff teams could be implemented and fix part of these issues.

I feel very passionate about our sport. My entire family plays in leagues. I want this to continue for us & players across the country. People need to enjoy the league experience more than they currently do.

I welcome any feedback and happy to talk about this and tennis anytime!!

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Your ideas are pretty good, I don't have better ones really .

You are on to something about chasing post season or including more in the post season.....
some places the captains are more than 50% this type,,,,,,,,
adults who picked up the game and are very incentivized by trophies, so the USTA is in a bind, have to make sure they don't quit. Really these captains are doing the thankless task of putting together teams in try-combo-mixed-aged. I mean some are doing 6-8 teams a season and if they stopped, yikes!

Oh, I can add something, someone enthusiastic should youtube sectionals/nationals and really the USTA should get some interns or something to do this, doesn't cost much, can throw it against the youtube wall and see if it sticks.

 

[schmke]

Your ideas are pretty good, I don't have better ones really .

You are on to something about chasing post season or including more in the post season.....
some places the captains are more than 50% this type,,,,,,,,
adults who picked up the game and are very incentivized by trophies, so the USTA is in a bind, have to make sure they don't quit. Really these captains are doing the thankless task of putting together teams in try-combo-mixed-aged. I mean some are doing 6-8 teams a season and if they stopped, yikes!

Oh, I can add something, someone enthusiastic should youtube sectionals/nationals and really the USTA should get some interns or something to do this, doesn't cost much, can throw it against the youtube wall and see if it sticks.

On the last point, I agree, the USTA does a terrible job of promoting local playoffs, Districts/States, or Sectionals. The could/should be using social media to promote the events and then have live updates as matches are going on or completing and the standings and what is only the line. In my area, there is nothing. This makes it hard to following along or know what is going on and that one might want to show up and watch.

And I agree, Nationals is a double edged sword. On one hand, that is what brings some players/captains to USTA League and they are often the ones that are key to having teams and bringing players to league play. But they can also be the ones that ruin the experience for those that aren't focused on making it to Sectionals and Nationals.

In my area, the top-2 teams in each flight (of usually 8-10 teams) makes local playoffs, so there is typically ample opportunity to make playoffs even with a loss or two, so teams aren't out of it early in the season with one loss. But if an area only takes the top team, yeah, I can see how that would be a challenge.

Districts/areas do have the ability to have rules regarding residency, that is not something that is dictated by National. But many areas don't have rules, or they allow a pretty high percentage (say 50%) out of area to get more players and teams. In some cases, a more restrictive residency rule would preclude having enough players and teams to have a league, so they err on the side of allowing out of area players so they can get critical mass.

Having a rule against stacking is hard. One can argue that such a rule would give a bigger advantage to super teams as that takes away a way for a contending team to "steal" a team win. On average, the stronger team is going to win most of the time if both teams play straight-up, and that takes some of the mystery out of it. That alone may drive some teams/players away as the season is sort of decided by who recruits the strongest team.

And even if you have a rule, how do you enforce it? Who is to say that just because two players are rated higher that two teammates that they are the better doubles pair? Chemistry between doubles partners counts for something too. And even if you have an app spit out line-ups, how do they handle self-rates? And some players may be improving or getting worse and their rating not reflect their ability, so I'm not sure it would be a whole lot better.

And limiting self-rates on a team can be difficult as especially in 18+ and at lower levels, it could preclude teams and players from playing. It isn't uncommon for groups of new players to want to get together and form a team. Telling them they can't and they have to split up to play on separate teams with strangers, perhaps with significant travel required, may cause them to just not play. Then we'd complain about the USTA being unfriendly to new players.

 

[GabeFSU]

Great points!! I like the ideas to promote tennis via toutube and/or social media. The drama of sports is the best reality tv!!

 

[ChaelAZ]

On the last point, I agree, the USTA does a terrible job of promoting local playoffs, Districts/States, or Sectionals. The could/should be using social media to promote the events and then have live updates as matches are going on or completing and the standings and what is only the line. In my area, there is nothing. This makes it hard to following along or know what is going on and that one might want to show up and watch.

Good point. On that topic, the USTA usually creates a hashtag for each sectional/regional/national to use when posting pictures and such. Since I am always at many of the events at Surprise AZ courts, I often would take pictures, post standing updates, etc. and use their tag. I had a rep from the USTA tell me I was posting too much, so I quit doing it. Where I was posting maybe 5-10 pictures/updates a day, the official USTA folks weren't posting but a few pictures or updates at the end of the day. Never made sense.

Now years later I still don't see much from them during events, especially updates as the tournament progresses.

 

[Roforot]

How does high school tennis prevent stacking of lineups?

Im ok w limiting self rated players. It will reduce sandbagging. Though some are dedicated to tank a season in order to get a rating. Id favor limiting self rated players to max of 1 match at sectionals and nationals.
Though I would also be ok w saying no self rates play at sectionals or above.

Finally they should encourage and promote ppl putting our matches. Theres a kevin documenting his 4.5 teams run in norcal that is interesting. Will post link later.

 

[schmke]

Good point. On that topic, the USTA usually creates a hashtag for each sectional/regional/national to use when posting pictures and such. Since I am always at many of the events at Surprise AZ courts, I often would take pictures, post standing updates, etc. and use their tag. I had a rep from the USTA tell me I was posting too much, so I quit doing it. Where I was posting maybe 5-10 pictures/updates a day, the official USTA folks weren't posting but a few pictures or updates at the end of the day. Never made sense.

Now years later I still don't see much from them during events, especially updates as the tournament progresses.

Quit promoting our event! It makes us look bad when you do it and we don't!

 

[TennisOTM]

My district is one that has seen increasing USTA league participation since I started playing about 7 years ago up to now, while many other districts around the country have a declined. I don't have great evidence for what's causing our increase, but here are a few observations in relation to OP's post:

I don't think playoffs have much to do league popularity here. There are plenty of players on teams that miss the playoffs year after year, yet they continue to sign up and have an enjoyable league experience. Many players just want to have a place to have regular, competitive matches organized for them, bond with teammates and have friendly rivalries with opponents, and USTA supplies that. We have numerous national and local leagues throughout the year - diehards can play league matches in each of the 12 months of the year - and many of the local leagues do not even have a playoff.

For those who enjoy playoffs, we do have one feature in Adult 18+ and 40+ leagues here that might be unique: a wildcard playoff. Our league officials organize an unofficial team playoff tournament held in the middle of the regular season, which any team can choose to join. It's run just like the district playoffs (3-4 matches over two consecutive days) and has a playoff atmosphere. Then at the end of the season, whoever did the best in the wildcard tournament, among teams who don't make the playoffs in the normal way, gets a bonus actual playoff spot. It's fun for the teams that join, and yet there are many teams that choose to not particpate, which just goes to show what I wrote above - there's a large contingent of players and teams who are happy with the regular season matches and that's it.

Our area has its fair share of "super-teams," including some of the most famous ones, yet they have not caused a decline in participation. During the years that one captain won multiple national championships, overall participation in those leagues increased at our local level. Of course there were complaints from opponents repeatedly losing to the same captain and his elite recruits, but I think it shows that these teams don't necessarily ruin the league experience for the vast majority of players.

 

[ponzicrash]

I've played the last 2 seasons of 3.5 in the capital region and if anything I'd say teams are overall weaker than the rural areas I've played in before.

There is a cascade effect of everyone playing up in the area. Imo there needs to be a push to get everyone to play at level as much as possible.

Because of the number of teams players are on I don't think most teams care if even 50%+ of their players aren't at level.

Also, I'd question if these "out of area" superteams are really what you think. I know many of the players from eastern nc on the 4.0, 4.5, and 5.0 teams you are likely referring to. The majority of their players are still from the capital area and they are playing capital or Western wake because there is no league in eastern nc.

I'd assume they are forming teams in capital because they actually want to play the regular season and/or draw players from the triangle area.

 

[the_faceless_player]

Where I am locally, we don't have to worry about "out of area" teams or anything like that, the leagues themselves are just blah. The 18+ 4.5 league that was super solid and a lot of fun 6-7 years ago, is now probably 60-70% 4.0s playing up (and not good ones) so the quality of tennis is just not good and the same team is going to win the league every year. I think our area just has a lot of aging players that don't get replaced and have moved on to the older leagues like 55+. A lot of excitement here got lost when they killed the 40 and over "+" leagues. We have a fair amount of 5.0s over 40 and it was a lot of fun when they could play on the 4.5 40+ teams. Mixed still does well here and I'm sure the leagues at 4.0 or below are fine, but the quality and engagement at 4.5 / 5.0 is nowhere near where it was several years ago.

 

[GabeFSU]

How does high school tennis prevent stacking of lineups?

Im ok w limiting self rated players. It will reduce sandbagging. Though some are dedicated to tank a season in order to get a rating. Id favor limiting self rated players to max of 1 match at sectionals and nationals.
Though I would also be ok w saying no self rates play at sectionals or above.

Finally they should encourage and promote ppl putting our matches. Theres a kevin documenting his 4.5 teams run in norcal that is interesting. Will post link later.

In high school and college there are rules about only being able to move your player up/down 1 line from your prior lineups. The rules vary by state/conference, but you basically can't throw your worst or even mid player at line 1 to gain an advantage on the others.
We have the technology in Tennislink to simply input out lineups online and they could be "revealed" to the other team at the designated match time. The computer would take the players rating into account and shuffle lines so that highest ranked players are on line 1 and so on.

 

[GabeFSU]

I've played the last 2 seasons of 3.5 in the capital region and if anything I'd say teams are overall weaker than the rural areas I've played in before.

There is a cascade effect of everyone playing up in the area. Imo there needs to be a push to get everyone to play at level as much as possible.

Because of the number of teams players are on I don't think most teams care if even 50%+ of their players aren't at level.

Also, I'd question if these "out of area" superteams are really what you think. I know many of the players from eastern nc on the 4.0, 4.5, and 5.0 teams you are likely referring to. The majority of their players are still from the capital area and they are playing capital or Western wake because there is no league in eastern nc.

I'd assume they are forming teams in capital because they actually want to play the regular season and/or draw players from the triangle area.

Glad that you are having a positive experience in CAP. Mine is overall positive, yet I strongly prefer the overall vibe when I began playing in '09 here. The 18+ divisions were larger (because no 40+ at that time) so 3.5 had 25-35 teams each year and 8 would make a local playoff that took place on a Fri/Sat/Sun. Players had similar # of reps in the regular season, then in playoffs you shorten your bench and play your best because each match is elimination.

For the most part teams played lines straight up during the entire regular season and the weaker players on the 15 man roster frequently played line 3. The past 5-7 seasons we have only 15 teams split into 2 flights. So in a 7/8 match season, if you lose 1 match you are on thin ice and if you lose 2 you are not making a playoff. Captains are often flipping some lines to manufacture 3 courts in regular season. Thus, the contenders feel pressure to play their best players each week and tough to rotate weaker players in the lineups. You also have some teams start to quit and play bad lineups or default courts down the stretch...which stinks if they are playing a rival team who you need to lose.

I think that the computer forcing folks to play straight up & just having local playoffs that have 8 teams would make both the regular season and the playoffs more exciting.

 

[ttwarrior1]

noone on any board anywhere will do anything. Afraid to change and lose there job

 

[Roforot]

In high school and college there are rules about only being able to move your player up/down 1 line from your prior lineups. The rules vary by state/conference, but you basically can't throw your worst or even mid player at line 1 to gain an advantage on the others.
We have the technology in Tennislink to simply input out lineups online and they could be "revealed" to the other team at the designated match time. The computer would take the players rating into account and shuffle lines so that highest ranked players are on line 1 and so on.

I think the reveal of lineups for league play could be a fun innovation... the only thing is sometimes you have couples that want to play together or don't want to play together.
But I think it could be neat also if the algorhythm could be tweaked (i.e. so it may put +/- 0.05 dynamic NTRP or something so you don't always play w/ the same guy/gal).

It's also funny b/c there are some ppl who complain theyre the rating they are bc the captain keeps putting them w bad players.

 

[mpnv1990]

On the last point, I agree, the USTA does a terrible job of promoting local playoffs, Districts/States, or Sectionals. The could/should be using social media to promote the events and then have live updates as matches are going on or completing and the standings and what is only the line. In my area, there is nothing. This makes it hard to following along or know what is going on and that one might want to show up and watch.

And I agree, Nationals is a double edged sword. On one hand, that is what brings some players/captains to USTA League and they are often the ones that are key to having teams and bringing players to league play. But they can also be the ones that ruin the experience for those that aren't focused on making it to Sectionals and Nationals.

In my area, the top-2 teams in each flight (of usually 8-10 teams) makes local playoffs, so there is typically ample opportunity to make playoffs even with a loss or two, so teams aren't out of it early in the season with one loss. But if an area only takes the top team, yeah, I can see how that would be a challenge.

Districts/areas do have the ability to have rules regarding residency, that is not something that is dictated by National. But many areas don't have rules, or they allow a pretty high percentage (say 50%) out of area to get more players and teams. In some cases, a more restrictive residency rule would preclude having enough players and teams to have a league, so they err on the side of allowing out of area players so they can get critical mass.

Having a rule against stacking is hard. One can argue that such a rule would give a bigger advantage to super teams as that takes away a way for a contending team to "steal" a team win. On average, the stronger team is going to win most of the time if both teams play straight-up, and that takes some of the mystery out of it. That alone may drive some teams/players away as the season is sort of decided by who recruits the strongest team.

And even if you have a rule, how do you enforce it? Who is to say that just because two players are rated higher that two teammates that they are the better doubles pair? Chemistry between doubles partners counts for something too. And even if you have an app spit out line-ups, how do they handle self-rates? And some players may be improving or getting worse and their rating not reflect their ability, so I'm not sure it would be a whole lot better.

And limiting self-rates on a team can be difficult as especially in 18+ and at lower levels, it could preclude teams and players from playing. It isn't uncommon for groups of new players to want to get together and form a team. Telling them they can't and they have to split up to play on separate teams with strangers, perhaps with significant travel required, may cause them to just not play. Then we'd complain about the USTA being unfriendly to new players.

The way to get around the self-rate issue is to lower the DQ threshold.

For example, if you self-rate as a 2.5 and are a mid 3.0 dynamically, that should be a DQ.

 

[socallefty]

Foolish to have one rating for singles and doubles. When I captained teams, we had many guys who probably had a 0.5 dynamic rating difference in their singles and doubles skills. Some had a big difference even in their deuce and ad court return skills. Also, chemistry and communication between partners is a key part of winning doubles together. So, you can’t just take the highest dynamic rated players and expect them to win #1 doubles together especially if one is more of a singles specialist, both prefer to return in the same side and/or they hate each other’s play styles or personalities!

 

[J D]

USTA needs to promote tennis instead of trying to redefine it. Here are some things to consider:
1) Tennis is essentially an individual sport, not a team one. Go to every local facility and have each agree to let their individual leagues, both for singles and doubles, be USTA sanctioned and be eligible for advancing playoffs. USTA membership would increase astronomically and more than pay for the administrative costs of organizing the playoffs.
2) Rec players can’t be divided into 5 functional levels and still have consistently competitive matches. My club used to have 9 levels that spanned 2.5 to 4.5. You won your level league, you got bumped up to the next level. You finished last, you got bumped down. All the matches were competitive. Bagels and breadsticks were uncommon. Everyone had fun.
3) if USTA did more levels, I realize there are number issues with doing team tennis in many areas that have limited participants. So, why do the teams have to be so large? How about smaller teams (1 S and 2 D’s, 2 S’s and 1 D, 2 D’s,, 3 D’s, etc….)?
4) Stop allowing people to play up. Provide more at level opportunities to play by having smaller teams, individual leagues, and more local tournaments.
5) Incentivize hosting local tournaments and tournament participation.
6) Limit the max number of self rates per team and in the playoffs.
7) I like the idea of limiting stacking by having the comp determine line up order. Give the captain the ability to move players up or down one line in doubles for preferred pairings. This eliminates the 3 D line being sacrificed at 1 D and should make for more competitive matches.
8) Pay attention to your customer feedback. Stop the cookie cutter approach. What works in in a big city might not be doable in a rural area. League needs in the north will be different than in the south. Have flexibility and adaptability by having many options for participation instead of the one size fits all approach.
9) Make leagues more accessible. If I didn’t already know USTA players, I wouldn’t have had a clue on how or where to sign up. Have firm ways to sign up online. Doing Option 1 above alone would radically increase visibility and accessibility.
10) Do something different. Tennis participation is shrinking. Stop just doing the same thing and hoping for a different outcome. Be bold, innovative, different.
11) Have places for those who want competition, people who want social interaction, players that simply want some fun, and others just looking to stay active. Right now, it seems like it’s all about the competition. That’s why p!ckl&b@ll is leaving tennis in the dust. It offers all those other things.

 

[mpnv1990]

USTA needs to promote tennis instead of trying to redefine it. Here are some things to consider:
1) Tennis is essentially an individual sport, not a team one. Go to every local facility and have each agree to let their individual leagues, both for singles and doubles, be USTA sanctioned and be eligible for advancing playoffs. USTA membership would increase astronomically and more than pay for the administrative costs of organizing the playoffs.
2) Rec players can’t be divided into 4 functional levels and still have consistently competitive matches. My club used to have 9 levels that spanned 2.5 to 4.5. You won your level league, you got bumped up to the next level. You finished last, you got bumped down. All the matches were competitive. Bagels and breadsticks were uncommon. Everyone had fun.
3) if USTA did more levels, I realize there are number issues with doing team tennis in many areas that have limited participants. So, why do the teams have to be so large? How about smaller teams (1 S and 2 D’s, 2 S’s and 1 D, 2 D’s,, 3 D’s, etc….)?
4) Stop allowing people to play up. Provide more at level opportunities to play by having smaller teams, individual leagues, and more local tournaments.
5) Incentivize hosting local tournaments and tournament participation.
6) Limit the max number of self rates per team and in the playoffs.
7) I like the idea of limiting stacking by having the comp determine line up order. Give the captain the ability to move players up or down one line in doubles for preferred pairings. This eliminates the 3 D line being sacrificed at 1 D and should make for more competitive matches.
8) Pay attention to your customer feedback. Stop the cookie cutter approach. What works in in a big city might not be doable in a rural area. League needs in the north will be different than in the south. Have flexibility and adaptability by having many options for participation instead of the one size fits all approach.
9) Make leagues more accessible. If I didn’t already know USTA players, I wouldn’t have had a clue on how or where to sign up. Have firm ways to sign up online. Doing Option 1 above alone would radically increase visibility and accessibility.
10) Do something different. Tennis participation is shrinking. Stop just doing the same thing and hoping for a different outcome. Be bold, innovative, different.
11) Have places for those who want competition, people who want social interaction, players that simply want some fun, and others just looking to stay active. Right now, it seems like it’s all about the competition. That’s why p!ckl&b@ll is leaving tennis in the dust. It offers all those other things.

I disagree on 4). I’m technically a 3.5, but I finished 3-1 in 4.0 in the spring. I will probably get bumped up. I think that you should have to be upper third of your level dynamically to play up.

 

[Robert F]

USTA needs to promote tennis instead of trying to redefine it. Here are some things to consider:
1) Tennis is essentially an individual sport, not a team one. Go to every local facility and have each agree to let their individual leagues, both for singles and doubles, be USTA sanctioned and be eligible for advancing playoffs. USTA membership would increase astronomically and more than pay for the administrative costs of organizing the playoffs.
2) Rec players can’t be divided into 4 functional levels and still have consistently competitive matches. My club used to have 9 levels that spanned 2.5 to 4.5. You won your level league, you got bumped up to the next level. You finished last, you got bumped down. All the matches were competitive. Bagels and breadsticks were uncommon. Everyone had fun.
3) if USTA did more levels, I realize there are number issues with doing team tennis in many areas that have limited participants. So, why do the teams have to be so large? How about smaller teams (1 S and 2 D’s, 2 S’s and 1 D, 2 D’s,, 3 D’s, etc….)?
4) Stop allowing people to play up. Provide more at level opportunities to play by having smaller teams, individual leagues, and more local tournaments.
5) Incentivize hosting local tournaments and tournament participation.
6) Limit the max number of self rates per team and in the playoffs.
7) I like the idea of limiting stacking by having the comp determine line up order. Give the captain the ability to move players up or down one line in doubles for preferred pairings. This eliminates the 3 D line being sacrificed at 1 D and should make for more competitive matches.
8) Pay attention to your customer feedback. Stop the cookie cutter approach. What works in in a big city might not be doable in a rural area. League needs in the north will be different than in the south. Have flexibility and adaptability by having many options for participation instead of the one size fits all approach.
9) Make leagues more accessible. If I didn’t already know USTA players, I wouldn’t have had a clue on how or where to sign up. Have firm ways to sign up online. Doing Option 1 above alone would radically increase visibility and accessibility.
10) Do something different. Tennis participation is shrinking. Stop just doing the same thing and hoping for a different outcome. Be bold, innovative, different.
11) Have places for those who want competition, people who want social interaction, players that simply want some fun, and others just looking to stay active. Right now, it seems like it’s all about the competition. That’s why p!ckl&b@ll is leaving tennis in the dust. It offers all those other things.

Agree more levels would help eliminate sand bagging and also narrow the ability to stack.
I wonder if a better concept for teams instead of a 4.0 level team, you have a team of multiple levels. Maybe a 4.5 dubs team a 4 dubs team and 3.0 dubs team. Then 4.0 singles and 3.5 singles. This would give 4.5 more opportunities to play since they h ave less leagues.

 

[schmke]

Agree more levels would help eliminate sand bagging and also narrow the ability to stack.
I wonder if a better concept for teams instead of a 4.0 level team, you have a team of multiple levels. Maybe a 4.5 dubs team a 4 dubs team and 3.0 dubs team. Then 4.0 singles and 3.5 singles. This would give 4.5 more opportunities to play since they h ave less leagues.

Sounds like Tri-Level, but you are introducing singles to the format which would be an interesting add.

 

[GabeFSU]

I think the reveal of lineups for league play could be a fun innovation... the only thing is sometimes you have couples that want to play together or don't want to play together.
But I think it could be neat also if the algorhythm could be tweaked (i.e. so it may put +/- 0.05 dynamic NTRP or something so you don't always play w/ the same guy/gal).

It's also funny b/c there are some ppl who complain theyre the rating they are bc the captain keeps putting them w bad players.

I think captains decide doubles partners/pairings and who plays singles, but the computer slots them at lines 1, 2, 3 when it adds up their ratings vs the other doubles pairings.
So plenty of strategy still. Do you but tour 2 best together or split them and have line 2/3 be stronger.
Just trying to eliminate captains intentionally flipping lines in efforts to stack the lower line

 

[rpm164]

Stacking can mostly be eliminated at least during the regular season if sections do points per position scoring and standings based on total points won. Stacking can still happen in the playoffs when it just comes down to how many courts need to be won. Playing up a level is one of the best ways to get bumped up and also allows for you to get more matches to play - I would not want to see that go.

 

[EggSalad]

Interested to see how USTA is evolving with the sport, esp at the adult league and junior level. I have captained USTA teams every year since '09, served on the Raleigh Tennis Assoc. Board in North Carolina.

I have seen a gradual decline in enthusiasm over local league play in the Raleigh-Durham-Cary area over the past decade. Registration numbers may appear up, due in large part by the same individuals registering in more divisions (18+, 40+, 55+) & the same players registering on teams in multiple neighboring areas.

However, I think the number of individuals playing in tennis leagues may be down, as I have seen many longtime opponents (who became friends) quit leagues & those who play become much less available as their team is out of contention.

I have 3 suggestions to make league play more Fun, Competitive & Engaging:
1 - A greater % of teams need to advance to local playoffs! USTA should encourage or mandate that at least 25-30% of teams advance to a local playoff.
2 - Limit the # of Self rated and/or out of area players eligible to play on a team. Locally we have experienced "super-teams" forming with the sole goal of getting to States & they are rostered mostly by out of area & self-rated players.
3 - National should consider a rule using ITF or disclose NTRP (with decimals) so captains may not play lower ranked individuals on a higher line. Heck, we could enter lineups online and they would be revealed to opponents at match time with computer auto re-ordering by rating.

The regular season local matches in our area have become cutthroat competitive. Lose 1 match and your team may be eliminated, lose 2 and your chances of advancing at the end of the year are virtually over.

This puts pressure on captains to play every match to win at ALL costs. This means often benching weaker players or sacrificing line 1 with your weakest player(s). This leads to less enjoyable tennis play & atmosphere. People are quitting leagues, defaulting lines, & dumping late season matches at alarming rates!

In high school & college you cannot put your worst player on line 1, so why can you do it in USTA?
Captains still have a ton of lineup strategies they can employ when it comes to pairings, who plays singles vs doubles etc. Our sport is better off with people playing matches “straight up” and allowing those who are a little weaker to participate and enjoy the experience. Why do captains feel the pressure to do it...because if they don't, their team may be out of contention early in the season with 2 months of league play left.

While I value high level competition, the fundamental USTA goals towards growing the sport we love are being lost. You CAN have both high level competition & growing enthusiasm! You can enhance the regular season by keeping more teams in-the hunt for playoffs & then make the playoff cutthroat competition. So while straight up lines may be an unlikely future, increasing # of playoff teams could be implemented and fix part of these issues.

I feel very passionate about our sport. My entire family plays in leagues. I want this to continue for us & players across the country. People need to enjoy the league experience more than they currently do.

I welcome any feedback and happy to talk about this and tennis anytime!!

It’s funny I just got home from a Raleigh USTA match and was telling myself I’m done with USTA because it’s just not enjoyable. I would list the reasons but I think you covered them all.

High School team tennis was fun because you were playing your top 1-6 in rankings against the other teams best 1-6 in order. And then your three best double courts in order.

USTA feels like a bunch of dumb gamesman ship that leads to really unenjoyable tennis.

 

[GabeFSU]

There are certainly more pros than cons, but I feel the experience could be so much better if play was always straight up.

If league players can express their concerns to local, state & even national leadership perhaps it can change for the better.

 

[JeffG]

I think the USTA could significantly increase participation by simply offering some sort of ladder system on accessible courts that don’t require club membership or expensive court fees. Most adults I know just want a fairly consistent stream of fairly competitive matches without spending a ton of money. Most don’t care about Nationals and all that. They just enjoy playing.

Local parks departments and public high schools provide courts we’ve already paid for but many don’t offer any sort of organized match play like they do for basketball, softball, etc. The USTA could help do that.

 

[Jblue247]

I don’t have a problem with the league system, except for the fact that it is exclusionary. I haven’t been able to find a team in a few years in the Charlotte area and I know a ton of people at different levels who want to play and can’t either.

In the past, I have been on a stacked combo team as a self rated player but I actually don’t care to travel to states or regionals every year I just want good competitive structured matches.

 

[GabeFSU]

I feel my local tennis community provides many avenues to make tennis accessible. Our local tennis organization does a great job of hosting socials for players looking for usta teams, where they can get picked up or get a group and form their own. They also publish a list of anyone looking for a team. Thus many city teams originate from this.

There is also a variety of ladders and recreational leagues offered just for local play for those who seek that avenue for their tennis.

I think my recommendations help make USTA leagues more fun in the regular season, which is why most people play in leagues. I think the majority teams are not focusing on advancement to states, sectionals, nationals but under the current rules the ones that are are making it less enjoyable for everyone else. That is why I want some tweeks....most notably a system just like high school and college where you can't put your weaker players on top lines.

 

[romano]

Interested to see how USTA is evolving with the sport, esp at the adult league and junior level. I have captained USTA teams every year since '09, served on the Raleigh Tennis Assoc. Board in North Carolina.

I have seen a gradual decline in enthusiasm over local league play in the Raleigh-Durham-Cary area over the past decade. Registration numbers may appear up, due in large part by the same individuals registering in more divisions (18+, 40+, 55+) & the same players registering on teams in multiple neighboring areas.

However, I think the number of individuals playing in tennis leagues may be down, as I have seen many longtime opponents (who became friends) quit leagues & those who play become much less available as their team is out of contention.

I have 3 suggestions to make league play more Fun, Competitive & Engaging:
1 - A greater % of teams need to advance to local playoffs! USTA should encourage or mandate that at least 25-30% of teams advance to a local playoff.
2 - Limit the # of Self rated and/or out of area players eligible to play on a team. Locally we have experienced "super-teams" forming with the sole goal of getting to States & they are rostered mostly by out of area & self-rated players.
3 - National should consider a rule using ITF or disclose NTRP (with decimals) so captains may not play lower ranked individuals on a higher line. Heck, we could enter lineups online and they would be revealed to opponents at match time with computer auto re-ordering by rating.

The regular season local matches in our area have become cutthroat competitive. Lose 1 match and your team may be eliminated, lose 2 and your chances of advancing at the end of the year are virtually over.

This puts pressure on captains to play every match to win at ALL costs. This means often benching weaker players or sacrificing line 1 with your weakest player(s). This leads to less enjoyable tennis play & atmosphere. People are quitting leagues, defaulting lines, & dumping late season matches at alarming rates!

In high school & college you cannot put your worst player on line 1, so why can you do it in USTA?
Captains still have a ton of lineup strategies they can employ when it comes to pairings, who plays singles vs doubles etc. Our sport is better off with people playing matches “straight up” and allowing those who are a little weaker to participate and enjoy the experience. Why do captains feel the pressure to do it...because if they don't, their team may be out of contention early in the season with 2 months of league play left.

While I value high level competition, the fundamental USTA goals towards growing the sport we love are being lost. You CAN have both high level competition & growing enthusiasm! You can enhance the regular season by keeping more teams in-the hunt for playoffs & then make the playoff cutthroat competition. So while straight up lines may be an unlikely future, increasing # of playoff teams could be implemented and fix part of these issues.

I feel very passionate about our sport. My entire family plays in leagues. I want this to continue for us & players across the country. People need to enjoy the league experience more than they currently do.

I welcome any feedback and happy to talk about this and tennis anytime!!

Good points! I also wish all lines were weighted in order to promote the best lines play each other. After all, this is about competition, not sacrificing players.

 

[mpnv1990]

I don’t have a problem with the league system, except for the fact that it is exclusionary. I haven’t been able to find a team in a few years in the Charlotte area and I know a ton of people at different levels who want to play and can’t either.

In the past, I have been on a stacked combo team as a self rated player but I actually don’t care to travel to states or regionals every year I just want good competitive structured matches.

Have you tried UTR?

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

I think the USTA could significantly increase participation by simply offering some sort of ladder system on accessible courts that don’t require club membership or expensive court fees. Most adults I know just want a fairly consistent stream of fairly competitive matches without spending a ton of money. Most don’t care about Nationals and all that. They just enjoy playing.

Local parks departments and public high schools provide courts we’ve already paid for but many don’t offer any sort of organized match play like they do for basketball, softball, etc. The USTA could help do that.

Every city of generally medium size and up has ladders already, just organized by local players with a website.

 

[cks]

Also, chemistry and communication between partners is a key part of winning doubles together.

+1

 

[Jblue247]

Have you tried UTR?

UTR isn’t big in my area. They have leagues and events but they are focused on singles and I am very much a doubles player. There is a local ladder as well but it’s really mainly singles play. I play a few matches a year but singles just isn’t my thing.

 

[socallefty]

For me, I stopped USTA league tennis during the first year of COVID when they were shut down and started organizing a lot of social tennis at my tennis club. Now those social tennis doubles and singles matches that I organize on specific days has become a fixed schedule for me and my opponents. So none of us are feeling the need to play USTA anymore as many of us are playing 4-7 times a week already. I think there is nothing that USTA can do to entice us back as we prefer playing a variety of opponents at our own club rather than driving 30-45 minutes to play at a lot of worser public facilities.

When I captained USTA league teams, I don’t think any of us were primarily motivated by trying to get to Nationals and we didn’t meet a lot of players that we thought were sandbaggers. We certainly did our best to win the local league, but the main reason was the fun of playing as a team together.

 

[JeffG]

Every city of generally medium size and up has ladders already, just organized by local players with a website.

But doesn’t that just reinforce the point that a lot of players end up pushed into trying to organize on their own? It’s sort of like how the USTA team experience is so largely dependent on volunteer captains who tend to significantly and understandably vary in their approach, time spent, etc..

If non-paid, self-organizing folks are already doing so much of the work, why bother with the USTA at all?

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

But doesn’t that just reinforce the point that a lot of players end up pushed into trying to organize on their own? It’s sort of like how the USTA team experience is so largely dependent on volunteer captains who tend to significantly and understandably vary in their approach, time spent, etc..

If non-paid, self-organizing folks are already doing so much of the work, why bother with the USTA at all?

Good points, many 4.5 and up do reject the USTA either to just hit with a group of people or some mega-cities like Dallas and Atlanta have other organized competitions. It ties in a bit with what I wrote above, you have to keep pleasing the trophy chasers, who are usually adult beginners or, not trying to be negative at all, just an observation, a lot of people new to America are infatuated with USTA trophies, just seems to be a thing. You have to continue to please these groups or I think more than 50% of the teams would vanish without those captains you mention.

 

[mpnv1990]

If there are staggered start times, the home team should get to decide which lines are played in which order.

 

[penpal]

Lots of good and interesting ideas being shared here by players. But I think a big problem, at least in my area, is that no one who represents USTA has ever shown any real interest in asking us players what we think/want ... or in reading feedback provided on forums such as this.

I've been involved in USTA leagues off and on for probably 20+ years and have not once heard of any local meeting where USTA reps wanted to brainstorm ideas with players. Several years ago, when there appeared to be more participation that would have been understandable. Four or five years ago, when PB was starting to take off seems like it might have been a good time to do this. Now? If I had to guess, it wouldn't surprise me if there were more discussions at USTA about how to incorporate PB and whether they should rename themselves the UST&PBA than there are about how to promote and build league tennis.

 

[HBK4life]

Lots of good and interesting ideas being shared here by players. But I think a big problem, at least in my area, is that no one who represents USTA has ever shown any real interest in asking us players what we think/want ... or in reading feedback provided on forums such as this.

I've been involved in USTA leagues off and on for probably 20+ years and have not once heard of any local meeting where USTA reps wanted to brainstorm ideas with players. Several years ago, when there appeared to be more participation that would have been understandable. Four or five years ago, when PB was starting to take off seems like it might have been a good time to do this. Now? If I had to guess, it wouldn't surprise me if there were more discussions at USTA about how to incorporate PB and whether they should rename themselves the UST&PBA than there are about how to promote and build league tennis.

God help us I can see a PB tennis “flex league”. Home captain decides what is played 3 courts PB 2 courts tennis or vice versa. Everyone must bring paddles and rackets! Pay those fees!

 

[socallefty]

Captains are the lifeblood of USTA team leagues and in many ways the ‘face of the USTA’ for players as no one typically meets USTA employees like league coordinators unless you are in Sectionals. If the USTA provided training/education, fun camps, incentives etc. for captains and in particular new ones, it might help with league participation. Captains are the ones who form teams, recruit players, keep it fun and encourage players to join leagues. If there were more new captains, there would be more new teams and new players.

 

[cks]

Captains are the lifeblood of USTA team leagues

Yep. USTA and LLCs should be doing whatever they can to incentivize captains to stay and recruit existing players to become captains. There are a surprising number of players who just don't participate in USTA league.

In my neck of the wood, we need access to more tennis courts and captains. Would love to see more public tennis centers w/ 10+ courts built around my city.

 

[TennisOTM]

I don’t have a problem with the league system, except for the fact that it is exclusionary. I haven’t been able to find a team in a few years in the Charlotte area and I know a ton of people at different levels who want to play and can’t either.

It blows my mind when I see stories like this, because in my area the league coordinators would never let this happen. Anybody who wants to play gets on a team, especially at their actual level. I mean, there are several teams that roster guys playing up above their level, so an actual at-level player has no problems.

Have you asked your league coordinators for help? If there are a ton of players wanting to play, why can't the coordinators just put them all on a new team together? If the league coordinators are just letting a ton of interested and available players sit out, then what are they actually doing for their job??

 

[Roforot]

It blows my mind when I see stories like this, because in my area the league coordinators would never let this happen. Anybody who wants to play gets on a team, especially at their actual level. I mean, there are several teams that roster guys playing up above their level, so an actual at-level player has no problems.

Have you asked your league coordinators for help? If there are a ton of players wanting to play, why can't the coordinators just put them all on a new team together? If the league coordinators are just letting a ton of interested and available players sit out, then what are they actually doing for their job??

There can be a court availability issue as well. One guy wanted to captain a team but couldn't find space in his club; he tried to make an arrangement w/ his HOA to use the 2 tennis courts, but the LC would not allow him to do the lines at different times like (s1 + d1 at 0900, then 1030 would be d2 and d3). It was weird but they told him he could only have 1 line at 1030... basically they didn't like the residential court.

 

[cks]

There can be a court availability issue as well.

Yep.

One guy wanted to captain a team but couldn't find space in his club; he tried to make an arrangement w/ his HOA to use the 2 tennis courts, but the LC would not allow him to do the lines

In my area, you need at least 3 courts with water and bathroom access to host a 5 line USTA match. That way you can fire 3 lines at the appropriate match time, and the last two lines play as matches gets finished.

 

[Roforot]

There’s a line between making sure players have a good experience and locking ppl out. No one wants to play at a dumpy court w broken nets. His hoa courts are really nice. But perhaps it is saturation the number of teams/captains.

 

[Moon Shooter]

I don't know if we will all agree on everything. But I think it is good to throw out ideas.

I am in favor of JD's "2) Rec players can’t be divided into 5 functional levels and still have consistently competitive matches. My club used to have 9 levels that spanned 2.5 to 4.5. You won your level league, you got bumped up to the next level. You finished last, you got bumped down. All the matches were competitive...."

The women's divisions between beginner and 4.0 are much narrower for skill level and surprise women participate much more then men. USTA should simply match men's ratings to women's ratings. So if you are a 3.0 male that plays at the same level as a 3.0 female then you should remain a 3.0 male. If you are a 3.0 male that plays as well as a 4.0 female you should be a 4.0 male. Yes that means current 4.0 males may all be 5.0 or 5.5 and current 5.0 players may be 6.0 or 6.5 but at the extreme upper end there are far fewer players so you can have a bit larger spread of players to field teams. At the lower levels there are tons of men that don't play because they would get blown out even at 3.0 (the lowest level supported by nationals) and no one likes to lose all the time.

The other advantage of equalizing the rating system is it would dramatically improve mixed doubles and even allow coed leagues. Areas like my own have a difficult time getting enough players for teams. If we could choose from a pool of men and women we would have many more teams and participation. Mixed doubles is bad but it is popular because it is much easier to get teams together.

 

[Moon Shooter]

As far as self rates the opposing team just had two players get dqed. The other captain is upset because all their wins turned into losses. The players wonder what they did wrong (they did absolutely nothing wrong they answered all the questions correctly and just happen to be elite athletes that improved at an insane rate). Now my team which was 0-4 is suddenly 3-1! Do you think they are celebrating? Not really. It seems undeserved and confusing. The other captain could have done things to try to hide these players and keep them at level long enough. He basically unwittingly did everything he could to get these players DQed (they were much better at singles and he had them playing a level up at singles). No one is happy with this.

I still think the best approach would be to use the self rate as a minimum but require a few matches to establish a rating before they start playing in a league. Will it prevent all the fraud? No there is no way you can prevent full on fraud where people throw games to lower their ratings. But it will make self rate issues much less of a problem. Had these guys played a couple of matches they would have been at the 3.5 level and that would have avoided this situation.

A player new to USTA will not throw games to get a lower rating. They will play their best. If you are afraid the new player will partner with someone that will throw games you can arrange the matches so they are partnered with someone from an opposing team. That way all of the other three players will be trying their best. The opponents from his own team will be trying to drive down his rating and his partner from an opposing team will try to drive up his rating by getting a good score. Getting a few matches in like this would not be hard at all. Then people get their rating and your done. No self rates no appeals. But narrower bands (see above) so if you get bumped up and are in the lower end of your level, it is not the end of the world!

 

[kylebarendrick]

A player new to USTA will not throw games to get a lower rating. They will play their best. If you are afraid the new player will partner with someone that will throw games you can arrange the matches so they are partnered with someone from an opposing team. That way all of the other three players will be trying their best. The opponents from his own team will be trying to drive down his rating and his partner from an opposing team will try to drive up his rating by getting a good score. Getting a few matches in like this would not be hard at all. Then people get their rating and your done. No self rates no appeals. But narrower bands (see above) so if you get bumped up and are in the lower end of your level, it is not the end of the world!

I have seen a pattern on a couple of local teams where new USTA members would join, play 4 adult league matches (losing them all) while dominating in mixed and combo, and then take their new computer rating into the next year and play at their real level. Yes, players new to USTA will throw games to get a lower rating. I presume this is orchestrated by the captains, who have the experience to recognize when they have found an out of level recruit.

The self rating guidelines explicitly state that if there is any doubt as to the level to rate yourself, you should choose the higher level. If people followed this, then nobody would actually want a self-rated player to be in a playoff line-up because they would be at the low end of the level. Again, the captains know what is up. I would not allow self rated players to participate in the post season. I would be willing to compromise on that if, at the end of their first local league, they were assigned a computer rating equal to their current dynamic and immediately promoted to the next level if appropriate. This would have a much lower threshold than a 3-strikes DQ and wouldn't over-turn any previous matches. Seems fair to me.

 

[Moon Shooter]

I have seen a pattern on a couple of local teams where new USTA members would join, play 4 adult league matches (losing them all) while dominating in mixed and combo, and then take their new computer rating into the next year and play at their real level. Yes, players new to USTA will throw games to get a lower rating. I presume this is orchestrated by the captains, who have the experience to recognize when they have found an out of level recruit.

I have seen some of this as well. 1) In my experience it is not people that are new to USTA but rather people who have played usta before and play mostly mixed doubles. Although I think I have seen a few people play a few matches before year end poorly so they get their c rating. They wait 3 years for the rating to expire and then self rate and lock in a rating. 2) I agree that my proposal will not solve the problem of frauds that will literally throw away games to keep their rating down. But frauds like that can already game the current system in ways such as you describe - and others. There is no way USTA can prevent that. But there are ways they can prevent what I consider a much more common situation where someone is playing out of level. That more common way is where someone fills out the form and just plays at the level it spits out. If this player played a few matches that would sort out that common issue.

The self rating guidelines explicitly state that if there is any doubt as to the level to rate yourself, you should choose the higher level.

I don't think it says that. But if it does that is also a problem. Because guys guessing too high means they are never asked to be on a team. I have seen that plenty of times as well. The bottom line is the best way to know an honest players rating is to have them play a few matches. It is far better then having them fill out a form.

If people followed this, then nobody would actually want a self-rated player to be in a playoff line-up because they would be at the low end of the level.

Yep. Plus it seems presumptuous to think you are better then what the form suggests.

Again, the captains know what is up.

Not always. When I started captaining I had no clue. This captain that just had two players DQed clearly didn't have a clue either. There are a few captains that have a clue but most don't.
Now I have a clue but the 3.0-4.0 mens divisions are such an huge amorphous mass that it is almost a joke. Narrower bands are key.

I would not allow self rated players to participate in the post season.

So the self rates can be used to beat out the other local teams, but then it is a different team in the play offs. That doesn't sound good to me.

I would be willing to compromise on that if, at the end of their first local league, they were assigned a computer rating equal to their current dynamic and immediately promoted to the next level if appropriate. This would have a much lower threshold than a 3-strikes DQ and wouldn't over-turn any previous matches. Seems fair to me.

Well that might gut a team. C rated players can be well above level shouldn't they also be promoted? What about appeal rated players? Why single out the players new to USTA?

My own view is no appeals and the self rate sheet only establishes a minimum. Just have people play @ 4 matches with players who have an established rating and then use that rating. Yes some players will cheat that just like some players cheat to get their c rating locked in. (or throw games at the end of the season if that team is not making play offs etc) But there is nothing USTA can do about that anyway. I'm just saying they can prevent the honest out of level self rates if they wanted and that is, in my experience, the majority of self rates.

 

[schmke]

As far as self rates the opposing team just had two players get dqed. The other captain is upset because all their wins turned into losses. The players wonder what they did wrong (they did absolutely nothing wrong they answered all the questions correctly and just happen to be elite athletes that improved at an insane rate).

Something seems slightly strange.

One player was a 3.0S and now shows as a 3.0D. Perhaps they just forgot to change him to a 3.5 when they noted the DQ. His matches do indicate a promotion was probably in order, playing up a couple times and winning will do that.

The other does show as a 3.5D now and also was an appropriate promotion, also with two wins playing up.

So it seems the system worked. Two players self-rated too low and their results showed they should be a level higher and they were promoted. It would seem the rules in your section are that promoted player's matches get reversed (sections can choose from several different ways to apply DQ's, reversing matches is one of them) so all went per the rules. Unfortunately the captain and/or the players didn't know the rules about matches being reversed, otherwise they perhaps wouldn't have played up, or when they elected to play up they could have appealed their self-rating up and I think their 3.0 results would have stood in that case, but obviously they wouldn't be eligible to play 3.0 anymore.

You can choose to take issue with the section reversing matches for promoted players, but IMHO that is the right thing to do, otherwise captains have an incentive to have out of level players and ride them as long as possible with no repercussions.

And perhaps the captain didn't know the rules and that is players could be promoted and results reversed, but is ignorance of the rules an excuse? As soon as they knew they could compete at 3.5 they should have appealed up and stopped playing 3.0. But if they thought they could double dip and play both and dominate at 3.0, that is exactly what the 3-strike rule is in place for.

 

[onehandbh]

For me, I stopped USTA league tennis during the first year of COVID when they were shut down and started organizing a lot of social tennis at my tennis club. Now those social tennis doubles and singles matches that I organize on specific days has become a fixed schedule for me and my opponents. So none of us are feeling the need to play USTA anymore as many of us are playing 4-7 times a week already. I think there is nothing that USTA can do to entice us back as we prefer playing a variety of opponents at our own club rather than driving 30-45 minutes to play at a lot of worser public facilities.

When I captained USTA league teams, I don’t think any of us were primarily motivated by trying to get to Nationals and we didn’t meet a lot of players that we thought were sandbaggers. We certainly did our best to win the local league, but the main reason was the fun of playing as a team together.

The extra time required for driving to and from USTA matches would be the biggest deterrent for me if I were to consider joining USTA again.