USTA Southern Sectional Champs
- Thread starter MRfStop
- Start date
i am on the BR team and they were our only loss. We won our court easily after a 1st set tie break. Their singles guy probably should have been a 4.0 but i am just basing that on what i heard about him as i didn't have a chance to watch him play. ii was told that we may have won our match with them had we flipped the #1 doubles court i was on with court 2. But thats just how things work out and they were just a bit better overall.
The USTA allows it and Sourthern Section encourages it by the way they handle dynamic DQs. Will be interested to see how many from that team are dynamically dq'd before nationals.
The USTA allows this, as it does not place a limit on the number of self-rated players are allowed on a roster (or allowed to play postseason). Presumably, if some players were far above level, they would have been dynamically DQ'd during the course of the season (if a player cumulatively accrues three strikes from matches all the way up to Sectionals). Maybe some of their players did get DQ'd and didn't play at Sectionals.
Their singles guy was a two star recruit out of high school about 5 years ago. I'm sorry but there is no way he should have self rated at 3.5 even if he hadn't picked up a racket in 5 years. Sounds like most of the team is just as shady. It's ridiculous USTA Southern or any section allows something like this.
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Looking at that team's page, there were no players DQ'd at any point. One other thing to lo
When I went to 3.5 Nationals, there was a team that got there mainly because their 2 singles players were D3 college players at the time. We had them in our group and thankfully one of the guys didn't go with them to Nationals, but not because he was DQ'd. It was probably a money or schedule issue. Here's what they did - they each were computer rated because the previous year they played mixed doubles.
schmke
Legend
Someone who plays just Mixed and gets a 3.5M does not have a "C" computer rating. They must still self-rate to play Adult. And a 3.5M rating does not automatically give a player license to self-rate for Adult as a 3.5 as the rules state they can rate no lower than their M rating but all the self-rate questionnaire/guidelines still apply. So them self-rating as 3.5 seems a little questionable or perhaps used technicalities of timing as to when they self-rated and when they starting playing at college.
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
Congrats to the team for winning sectionals. But I think in this case it is pretty obvious that the system was manipulated (giving false information on the initial self rating questionnaire). I don't see how some of the players weren't DQd at the local/state level especially the ones who had a #-0 record.
Don't know about all of them but one clearly is manipulating his NTRP. Is 21-0 in 2018 leagues and 0-3 in 2019 leagues. Clearly he dumped 3 matches in June and July to suppress is NTRP. USTA GA and USTA Southern should be ashamed for letting this happen. That's not even trying to be subtle.
Ok good to know @schmke. Upon looking at it again, I guess one of the guys self-rated a few years prior as a 3.0, crushed it, then became 3.5C and played mixed after that until playing 3.5 men's. The other one started as a 3.5 self-rated several years prior (not sure he was even 18 at that point), did ok but didn't dominate, then was 3.5C. I still think there should be some restriction that a 3.5 player does not play on a D1-D3 college team. 4.0, yes, there can be college players there, but not 3.5.
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
I know people who only played high school and intramural tennis at their college for fun and answered the self rate questionnaire honestly and were given a 5.0 rating.
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
Is this is essentially a blue print of how to make it to nationals in your given rating? Pick up a former high school state champion and possibly some senior tennis players at the local college? Have them self rate as low as possible. If they get DQd by the time you make it to nationals who cares at least you made it right?
Fun observation - The Kentucky 4.0 Men's team won their district 3-2, and all three won courts were on tiebreakers. They won all 4 of their flight matches 3-2, and the final was a 3-2 win. And because it's such a hot topic... 0 self-rates and 3 appeals. 2 of the appeals played in the final match on different doubles teams, and they went 1-1.
Good, close competition.
Good, close competition.
schmke
Legend
Yep. To those that think a team has to cheat to get to Nationals, this team would seem to refute that. And this team wasn't an ESL with now bumped up players either, so their full roster is eligible for Nationals.
Now, will they compete well at Nationals? We will see, but if they can run the gauntlet of tough (and some perhaps questionable) teams in Southern Sectionals, they have been tested.
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
I’m really surprised how the ATL team did at sectionals
woodje12
Rookie
I played a guy from one of the perennial Atlanta playoff teams a couple seasons ago. He was a former JUCO All-American (granted from the late 90's but still)...self-rated 3.5. USTA tennis, it's sandbagstic!
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
Congratulations. Nice to see a team do it the right way. Out of curiosity did you have any guys bumped down from 5.0 the previous year? And i might be wrong but i think NC had a wildcard this year. Were you guys the NC winners or runners up?
MRfStop
Hall of Fame
Congratulations!
We did have 4 guys who were bumped down from 5.0 last year. we also have a couple guys who have been 5.0 a couple of years ago. however none of the bump downs were due to tanking.
NC did get a wildcard. we were the winners of the state finals.
i've always been a strong supporter of the idea that no self rates are eligible for post season play. it would significantly cut down on the # of players not playing at their level.
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The limitations on self rates is often talked about and I think it would be too harsh to not let them play at all.
Maybe a compromise of 3 self rates allowed in the lineup at state championships, 2 at sectional championship and only 1 at national championships ?? (this is assuming 5 lines/8 people, adjust for fewer lines) This way new players are still encouraged to join USTA league because they can compete post season, but you cant stack your team with them.
schmke
Legend
I don't disagree with the idea of limiting the number of self-rates that can play in playoffs/Nationals, but having the number decrease as you advance is a little problematic as it punishes the team that advances. I'd prefer to just see a fixed limit applied to any playoff team.
the idea is to let a team with a bunch of self rates play in a state championsips, and if they are honest self rates they probably wont win the whole thing, however if they stacked with dishonest self rates and do win they will not be able to use them all as they advance … hopefully discouraging the dishonest self rating because by the time they get to nationals they will lose their ability to play those people.
schmke
Legend
But in Southern at least, teams ESL teams with players that were bumped up and are ineligible for Nationals should then similarly be discouraged from going to States or Sectionals because they know they won't be able to go to Nationals, or do so with a severely handicapped roster. Yet the past two years with this new rule, we see teams still go to and win Sectionals (in part due to have that advantage), so the "can't go to Nationals" card is not discouraging them from going as far as they can. I'd think it would be similar with the rule you are proposing.
SouthernCourts
Semi-Pro
I was on a team that went to the NC state championships at 3.5 18+, where we finished in second place in the division won by the team that went down to sectionals. Was very curious to see how this one player would do who was just an absurdly strong singles player at the 3.5 level. Sure enough, he went 4-0 at sectionals, though he did drop a set this time. But was just googling the Georgia team that won sectionals, and like someone said, one of their 3.5 singles studs was a 2-star recruit out of high school. Seems absurd to me, and easy to prevent.
By the way, how do you tell if someone is self or computer rated? Or has appealed?
By the way, how do you tell if someone is self or computer rated? Or has appealed?
yes perhaps.
ESL is a another thing that should be changed … have the league, don't let it count towards ratings.
Initials RS?
In Tennis Link you go to USTA League>FIND NTRP RATING INFO and enter the player's name.
SouthernCourts
Semi-Pro
Yup. Thanks for info!
the NC 4.0 women's team from our area lost in the southern sectionals final 3-2 to MS (MS defaulted the last court but NC had won the first set and were down a break in the 2nd set). the #1 singles player from MS was self rated and beat the #1 player from NC (who will be a 4.5 next year) easily. i looked yesterday and I saw the MS #1 has been DQd following sectionals. assuming that NC won the remaining court, it's likely that NC wins that match. if i'm NC then i'm really pissed.
if you are going to allow self rated players at sectionals then a DQ should result in the loss of that court. instead there is no penalty for a team like MS, other than not being able to use the DQd player at nationals.
if you are going to allow self rated players at sectionals then a DQ should result in the loss of that court. instead there is no penalty for a team like MS, other than not being able to use the DQd player at nationals.
that's fantastic. congratulations. i usually have 1-2 self rates on my team just because i'm always looking for opportunities to help grow tennis and make new tennis friends....without self rates the leagues will not add new players which is also important. fundamentally, i agree with you it has been refreshing (in our team's case), to go from worst to first without all the shenanigans...we are happy to win the flight, and everything after that is gravy!
SouthernCourts
Semi-Pro
I know that singles player, she's unreal and I knew the person who beat her must be ridiculously good. When you say DQ'ed, what do you mean? Just ineligible for nationals?
Congrats on your win!
if you search her name then it now has a DQ beside it. what it means is that b/c she's self-rated at 4.0 then her rating immediately changes to a 4.5. that means she's ineligible for nationals and ineligible for any fall league unless she's playing as a 4.5.
schmke
Legend
Would you have the teams from an ESL still advance to local/state/sectional playoffs?
nope, why do they get 2 teams to advance?
Agreed. The rule shouldn't get stricter as it goes, because that will create unnecessary problems.
I'm also not onboard with the idea to totally disallow all self-rated players advancement. I understand the difficulty that they present, but like WhiteOut mentioned my team is always trying to get new/returning guys back into the league. We're always going to have 1-3 guys who self-rate because of that, and I think that's a good thing for tennis. The thing to remember is that people will always be able to "cheat" the system. Limiting the number of self-rated players on championship teams to a few seems like a good balance between avoiding punishment to new players and increasing the difficulty on those looking to get an unfair advantage.
On the subject of retroactively adjusting scores for DQs, I find myself unable to reach a solid decision. You're opening up such a huge can of worms when you go back and change scores, but it was unfair to the teams that faced those players. The way I feel today is that you should only adjust the scores for that active event, and anything else is bad luck. It'll probably change when I lose to somebody who gets DQ'd
schmke
Legend
I believe the active event scores are the only ones ever reversed. Now, in some areas where there are many seasons, you can have overlapping events even with playoffs.On the subject of retroactively adjusting scores for DQs, I find myself unable to reach a solid decision. You're opening up such a huge can of worms when you go back and change scores, but it was unfair to the teams that faced those players. The way I feel today is that you should only adjust the scores for that active event, and anything else is bad luck. It'll probably change when I lose to somebody who gets DQ'd
For example, it is possible for someone to be playing local playoffs for 18 & Over while 40 & Over regular season is still going. A DQ during the local playoffs would reverse the matches at those local playoffs, but not the regular season of 18 & Over. But since 40 & Over regular season is still active, those would be reversed.
Similarly, if someone gets a 3 strike DQ at Sectionals, their district or local playoff matches are not reversed, nor are their regular season matches, just those at Sectionals. And if a Sectionals has a round robin and then semis/final, if the DQ occurs in the round robin, prior round robin matches are reversed, and if the DQ occurs in the semis, only the semi is reversed, nothing from the round-robin is changed.
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
40 & Over Southern Sectionals starting today in Mobile. Hopefully good, clean tennis as well
schmke
Legend
And only 93 and thunderstorms forecast ...40 & Over Southern Sectionals starting today in Mobile. Hopefully good, clean tennis as well
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
Rained for 20 minutes last weekend for 18 & Over on Day 1 morning in Mobile. No rain the rest of the weekend, surprisingly. Drove for A/C 2 miles away and completely dry!
Play halted and was delayed an hour and 15 mins.
Players on the court were responsible for squeegee'ing (funny word) their court dry. Very tiresome task in that heat.
Regardless of who won or lost, tennis in Mobile in July was a miserable experience. The teams that won weren't necessarily the "best" teams, but teams that could withstand the heat and humidity the most. Teams that were short on people, who had to play multiple times a day, two days in a row, had little chance to compete without someone dropping, and those that didn't drop played like zombies out there after a few matches. My wife's team had a singles player that had to play 2 singles matches the first day (due to logistics) and was done for the tournament due to heat stroke. Puking, sickness, everything, done.
Who thought it is a good idea to host a tennis tournament as far south as you can go, in the sweaty ass crack of america? The humidity was off the charts and people were dropping like flies. Not only like that it was PITA to get to, located in the extreme outskirts of the section. Why can't they just move it somewhere in the middle so people can actually get to it in a reasonable time frame, and maybe somewhere in the mountains where it isn't 97 with 90% humidity on frying pan like hard courts?
I don't care if I ever go back to another sectionals tourney if it's hosted there and in all honesty I'll probably avoid it. Hopefully it's moved whenever the contract expires.
Who thought it is a good idea to host a tennis tournament as far south as you can go, in the sweaty ass crack of america? The humidity was off the charts and people were dropping like flies. Not only like that it was PITA to get to, located in the extreme outskirts of the section. Why can't they just move it somewhere in the middle so people can actually get to it in a reasonable time frame, and maybe somewhere in the mountains where it isn't 97 with 90% humidity on frying pan like hard courts?
I don't care if I ever go back to another sectionals tourney if it's hosted there and in all honesty I'll probably avoid it. Hopefully it's moved whenever the contract expires.
In no way am I minimizing the challenge put on the smaller roster teams, or how unpleasant the experience undoubtedly was... but this is the reality of outdoor tennis. It's always about what team deals with the conditions to get the best tennis played. I agree that it doesn't seem to be an ideal location, and hopefully they are evaluating other sites.
schmke
Legend
Other sites need to respond to the section asking for bids for the event. The section doesn't just choose where to go, a facility/city needs to want them there and bid. So encourage your favorite site to do so!
sounds like sour grapes.
teams that have the potential to reach a sectionals tournament need to get commitment from players before the season starts. i understand things come up, but our captain let us know about the dates of the tournament back in february and got commitments from guys to block their calendars. sure, it wasn't a great location but teams who have the conditioning to handle these conditions and depth were rightfully rewarded.
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
I’ve got to agree with you. My team went last year with 9 guys. We won our group but lost the final. 7 guys played 5 matches 1 guy played 4 and 1 played 1. And we we didn’t have heat related issues. Preparing for the heat and physical conditioning is part of the tournament - everyone has to deal with it. Plan accordingly.
I went to sectionals in Mobile last year and the heat was brutal for the more northern teams. I'm from Baton Rouge so it was about normal. I asked why it was in mobile every year and apparently no one else seriously bids. You need 55+ courts and it seems that no individual facility anywhere else can accommodate the size. Baton Rouge has the 55 courts under 1 entity but that wouldn't be any better.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
55+ courts at one facility??
Nationals is being held at my home club in Vegas for many divisions and we have a total of 23 at the facility... has control over another roughly 10-12 within 2 mile radius.
Guess nationals is going to be a disaster then .... but at least very little chance for rain and no humidity.
EDIT: just looked it up: 60 courts. Dang. No wonder they get the bid even if no other facility puts their hat in. Why wouldn't you have it there, the logistics make it too easy to run.
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schmke
Legend
Southern Sectionals is kind of big. And unlike Nationals, they are holding all levels and genders at once, Nationals generally has a single level and two genders so the court requirements are lower.
For Southern Sectionals, for most (all?) levels, there are 2 flights of 5 teams each meaning 20 team matches of round-robin per level and gender. For 40 & Over, there are 4 levels so 80 team matches per gender or 160 team matches total. Each team match uses 5 courts so you get 800 total match courts needed. Assuming 10 hours of play each day and 2 hours per match, that is 5 matches per court per day or 15 per court over the three days round-robin are held. 800 matches and 15 matches per court means you need 53 courts ...
Texas Sectionals is also very big with I believe usually 4 flights of 4 teams each, but they both spread it out over several facilities in an area typically, and will have half the levels one weekend and the rest the next.
Nationals with the new format will give all 17 teams 4 matches over the two round-robin days, or 34 team matches per gender and level, or 170 match courts required. For both genders of a level at a Nationals that is 340 match courts. Again using 2 hours per match and playing 10 hours a day over the two days, that is 10 matches per court, or 34 courts required. So sounds like Vegas will be at capacity and perhaps hoping for matches shorter than 2 hours or plan on playing longer than 10 hours a day.
