USTA Tournament Frustration (10 & Under)

[TennisCoachFLA]

Its all good ProTour. When people debate strongly about tennis it means they care about the game.

If the motivations for Quickstart are pure....more kids into tennis, allows for proper strokes due to the slower balls and smaller courts, used to build the base for a tennis future, great.

If the motives for some parents are the same kids who bunt stroke to bring home trophies at age 11 now can bunt stroke and bring home medals at age 7....then not so great.

Green balls for the 10s, I will back you 100% on that one.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Its all good ProTour. When people debate strongly about tennis it means they care about the game.

If the motivations for Quickstart are pure....more kids into tennis, allows for proper strokes due to the slower balls and smaller courts, used to build the base for a tennis future, great.

If the motives for some parents are the same kids who bunt stroke to bring home trophies at age 11 now can bunt stroke and bring home medals at age 7....then not so great.

Green balls for the 10s, I will back you 100% on that one.

agree..........

I am sending a former davis cup player down to your area his buddy is already teaching at Everts, i will be coming down in March, hope to see you there

 

[BSPE84]

=
And yes, there is a huge problem in the juniors with kids rushing to play tournaments with lousy strokes. They are hard to fix should they some day want to take their tennis to a higher level.
.

Exactly. See it all the time here. With a solid technical foundation that's not necessarily "perfect", he/she will have the tools necessary to go to a higher level - whatever their personal goals might be.

If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have started my 13-year old in tournaments at 10 instead of 8. Why? Simply because most kids that age only understand WINNING or LOSING, even in a practice match. They feel the pressure in tournaments and will moonball and push rather than hitting out, using the right grip on serves, etc.. Of course, many do not improve and eventually quit the game out of frustration when they start losing on a regular basis. Look around and you rarely ever see a highly ranked 10-12year old do anything significant in the higher age divisions and beyond. Maybe that's what USTA is trying to address by implementing QS, for those who want to subscribe to that philosophy. Seems to me that QS should be a good idea for stroke development in younger kids. Not quite sure though how playing a tournament under this format would be beneficial, assuming new tennis parents are still interested to get beyond their confusion with ball color, court dimension, racquet size, etc. Poor job rolling this out by USTA in my opinion.

And I posted this from personal experience, not because I have any interest in keeping tennis coaches employed .

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Exactly. See it all the time here. With a solid technical foundation that's not necessarily "perfect", he/she will have the tools necessary to go to a higher level - whatever their personal goals might be.

If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have started my 13-year old in tournaments at 10 instead of 8. Why? Simply because most kids that age only understand WINNING or LOSING, even in a practice match. They feel the pressure in tournaments and will moonball and push rather than hitting out, using the right grip on serves, etc.. Of course, many do not improve and eventually quit the game out of frustration when they start losing on a regular basis. Look around and you rarely ever see a highly ranked 10-12year old do anything significant in the higher age divisions and beyond. Maybe that's what USTA is trying to address by implementing QS, for those who want to subscribe to that philosophy. Seems to me that QS should be a good idea for stroke development in younger kids. Not quite sure though how playing a tournament under this format would be beneficial, assuming new tennis parents are still interested to get beyond their confusion with ball color, court dimension, racquet size, etc. Poor job rolling this out by USTA in my opinion.

And I posted this from personal experience, not because I have any interest in keeping tennis coaches employed .

No confusion in my section, just like with anything else new ideas have to be digested few times.

Your kid did not do green nor QS, had your kid done so maybe you would not be saying this. Who knows. You asked a question and answered yourself, good job

Advanced 8-9 kids moonball or push sometimes, the elite 8-9 year olds rarely, they hit very hard, the ones in our section always seem to be on top at 12 14 16

 

[seminoleG]

Pro Tour
Do you have insight into what USTA Florida will lean towards in 2012? maybe they are looking at the # of 10s in 2011 to guide their decision???

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Pro Tour
Do you have insight into what USTA Florida will lean towards in 2012? maybe they are looking at the # of 10s in 2011 to guide their decision???

I have a funny suspicion they are, I will ask.

 

[BSPE84]

Your kid did not do green nor QS, had your kid done so maybe you would not be saying this. Who knows. You asked a question and answered yourself, good job

Thanks, but can you tell me in your great wisdom what exactly my question was and if I answered it correctly?

Advanced 8-9 kids moonball or push sometimes, the elite 8-9 year olds rarely, they hit very hard, the ones in our section always seem to be on top at 12 14 16

I'll quote Brad on this one, LOL.

 

[seminoleG]

Searched online QS Balls aren't cheap. Green Dot more expensive than regulation. Guess they last longer.

USTA should give Members under 10 a QS starter kit or something.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

To be quite honest, I want this not to be true, but observing American parents and kids for a long time, this is how I think this will play out.

I have a feeling all Quickstart tournaments will do is allow the terrible strokes to be used in a tournament setting at younger ages. Parents/kids for the most part just want fast results. They want the little ones to be winners and have Grandma and Pop Pop sit at the tournaments and be impressed.

In many cases this leads to shortcuts. Bunt style strokes on both sides, pancake serves. And as long as the child is doing well, the parent and child do not seek improvement of the strokes.

A small percentage of parents and kids will chill and take their time and let the proper strokes get ingrained. They usually have more control problems and do not enter tournaments early. If they do, they many times lose to the bunters for a while.

Most every club and part has programs for little kids. They use low compression balls to teach strokes. Despite this, many parents still rush the kids ahead, into tournaments, with bad strokes that lead no where.

I have a hard time seeing how Quickstart tournaments will change this. I think it will in fact just add to it.

I can not tell you how many times a kid who is very average in the class gets taken to a small tournament, wins a ribbon, and now the tennis coach is an idiot and all the other kids inferior in the parent's mind to their new tennis champ. Then they find some shady private coach to keep teaching junior and telling them what they want to hear.

All I know is the second many kids have any success in tournaments is the second their parents stop listening to the coach concerning fundamentals. I guess it is human nature, success must mean epic talent in their minds.

There is a 14 year old who just won a top junior 14s. The strokes are awful, a bunt backhand, a forehand with a straight take back. But this kid is winning now. And you tell the parents that the kid's strokes look nothing like any top 100 pro's.....forget it, no interest in the truth.

My gut feeling is that QS tournaments will just create more dead end stroke kids whose parents think they are Federer.

Maybe none of this is bad....more sales of tennis stuff I guess. But as far as this being the road to producing better American players in the future, I just don't think that will happen. Americans like shortcuts and QS tournaments gives them another one.

 

[klu375]

Tournaments are good!

Glad to have you back TCF. Everyone's situation is different. We do not live in a tennis hotbed. There are a lot of indoor clubs here but almost no junior programs, most courts are seasonal rentals to older guys. Individual coaches book court time and give private lessons and clinics. Most of them are not young and teach technique the way they used to play themselves 20-30 years ago. Their main objective is to make sure that the client will not be frustrated and quit. Obviously the majority of kids who end up in a tennis club are those who did not show talent for team sports (read non-athletic). My daughter (with 2 years of club soccer under her belt) started with a coach like that but at least I was lucky enough to take her to tournaments after 3 months over objections of her coach (of course). At these entry level tournaments I finally had a chance to see what other good young kids could do, how they hit the ball, network with other parents and get their advice (main advice was to fire our coach). And at one of these tournaments I met her future coach. As my daughter was destroying his student with a beautifull forehand (on pure athleticism) he was explaining to me the flaws of my daughter's techniques. So after I fired our coach I called him because I could see the results of his work and appreciated the fact that he came to watch his young students in competition. And around here playing tournaments in the winter is the most economical way to practice if you can get through the couple of rounds! And now about QS - it seems our section has both QS RR and regulations 10U tournaments this year.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Glad to have you back TCF. Everyone's situation is different. We do not live in a tennis hotbed. There are a lot of indoor clubs here but almost no junior programs, most courts are seasonal rentals to older guys. Individual coaches book court time and give private lessons and clinics. Most of them are not young and teach technique the way they used to play themselves 20-30 years ago. Their main objective is to make sure that the client will not be frustrated and quit. Obviously the majority of kids who end up in a tennis club are those who did not show talent for team sports (read non-athletic). My daughter (with 2 years of club soccer under her belt) started with a coach like that but at least I was lucky enough to take her to tournaments after 3 months over objections of her coach (of course). At these entry level tournaments I finally had a chance to see what other good young kids could do, how they hit the ball, network with other parents and get their advice (main advice was to fire our coach). And at one of these tournaments I met her future coach. As my daughter was destroying his student with a beautifull forehand (on pure athleticism) he was explaining to me the flaws of my daughter's techniques. So after I fired our coach I called him because I could see the results of his work and appreciated the fact that he came to watch his young students in competition. And around here playing tournaments in the winter is the most economical way to practice if you can get through the couple of rounds! And now about QS - it seems our section has both QS RR and regulations 10U tournaments this year.

Hi Klu. Sounds like the tournaments are a good way for you to see what else is out there. Like you said if you are not in a high tennis area that may be the only option.

All I want people to know is that giving the kid the proper strokes is important. Like you saw, a very athletic kid can beat a kid with a pretty stroke who is not as athletic.

But when we think long term, the best players almost always have nice strokes from a fundamental stand point. If you check out every top 100 player you see a pretty basic forehand high take back and core rotation. They all pronate on their serves and do not pancake.

So the athletic kid with ugly strokes may win at age 10. But when they get older and start meeting other athletic kids who combine that with great strokes, that is when they fail.

So lets give every kid pretty strokes and the athletic ones will rise in time anyway.

 

[CC17]

Hey, I'm a junior player, and I was bored and reading this thread.
TCF, you frequently deride the idea of a straight takeback on forehand, and "bunt strokes".
While I agree with this, that you need longer strokes to play at a higher level, doesn't Kimiko Date Krumm use "bunt" style strokes on both sides.

Just curious to see your take on that.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Searched online QS Balls aren't cheap. Green Dot more expensive than regulation. Guess they last longer.

USTA should give Members under 10 a QS starter kit or something.

I have most of the 25% compression green balls, I was going to weigh all of them and do a detailed analysis of the bounce longevity etc......but I guess I will keep this info to myself. In the end it is just not worth it.

What is worth it is to have a warning sign at Little Mo website http://www.mcbtennis.org/ warning every kid and their parents not to enter their U8 U9 U10 U11 tournaments if they do not have proper perfect textbook techniques, because if they do, it will be a disaster to their tennis careers, labeled elitist and are only looking to collect trophies.................:roll:

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Glad to have you back TCF. Everyone's situation is different. We do not live in a tennis hotbed. There are a lot of indoor clubs here but almost no junior programs, most courts are seasonal rentals to older guys. Individual coaches book court time and give private lessons and clinics. Most of them are not young and teach technique the way they used to play themselves 20-30 years ago. Their main objective is to make sure that the client will not be frustrated and quit. Obviously the majority of kids who end up in a tennis club are those who did not show talent for team sports (read non-athletic). My daughter (with 2 years of club soccer under her belt) started with a coach like that but at least I was lucky enough to take her to tournaments after 3 months over objections of her coach (of course). At these entry level tournaments I finally had a chance to see what other good young kids could do, how they hit the ball, network with other parents and get their advice (main advice was to fire our coach). And at one of these tournaments I met her future coach. As my daughter was destroying his student with a beautifull forehand (on pure athleticism) he was explaining to me the flaws of my daughter's techniques. So after I fired our coach I called him because I could see the results of his work and appreciated the fact that he came to watch his young students in competition. And around here playing tournaments in the winter is the most economical way to practice if you can get through the couple of rounds! And now about QS - it seems our section has both QS RR and regulations 10U tournaments this year.

now if you were newbi parent reading these posts and listening to some of the recommendations you would not have taken your daughter to tournaments until she was "ready" what ever that means but by then it is too late, you would not know what is out there "the rest of the competition" and you would not have met your future coach, good luck

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Hey, I'm a junior player, and I was bored and reading this thread.
TCF, you frequently deride the idea of a straight takeback on forehand, and "bunt strokes".
While I agree with this, that you need longer strokes to play at a higher level, doesn't Kimiko Date Krumm use "bunt" style strokes on both sides.

Just curious to see your take on that.

Yes indeed. You can find exceptions no doubt. Melanie Oudin's take back is not like any of the top 10 men or women's players either.

Shawn Marion has the ugliest shot in the NBA but it works for him.

But if you have a child at 6-8 years old and can teach him to shoot a basketball or hit a forehand any way you want......should you teach him to hit like Kimiko and shoot like Marion, or maybe let him do it with no instruction at all?

Or should you teach him to shoot like Kobe, LeBron, Mike Miller, 100 other pros who have the same basic fundamentals....and hit a forehand like every top 10 player and most top 200 players?

The smart thing is to stack the deck in his favor by teaching proper fundamentals.

We must be careful using exceptions as a reason not to instill fundamentals.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

now if you were newbi parent reading these posts and listening to some of the recommendations you would not have taken your daughter to tournaments until she was "ready" what ever that means but by then it is too late, you would not know what is out there "the rest of the competition" and you would not have met your future coach, good luck

Ah, one example that serves your point but lets discount the 100s of other kids us coaches see who might have gone further in tennis but never developed their strokes because they pitty patted in tournaments too early.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I have most of the 25% compression green balls, I was going to weigh all of them and do a detailed analysis of the bounce longevity etc......but I guess I will keep this info to myself. In the end it is just not worth it.

What is worth it is to have a warning sign at Little Mo website http://www.mcbtennis.org/ warning every kid and their parents not to enter their U8 U9 U10 U11 tournaments if they do not have proper perfect textbook techniques, because if they do, it will be a disaster to their tennis careers, labeled elitist and are only looking to collect trophies.................:roll:

Little Mo......do you know what that even is? It is a fantastic charity for cancer research. The money comes from parents who pay for their kids to play in some tournaments. Just like we have an annual bowling tournament for kids up north to raise money for breast cancer.

These are charities but have nothing to do with QS tournaments. They are wonderful charities.

Have you ever seen little Mo tournies? I would guess 95% are silly things for the parents and kids. Most are not taken that seriously except for a few crazed parents....they are for charity.

They have regionals and nationals to raise more and more money.....and you have never heard of any of the past winners except for 1 or 2.

Tens of thousands of little kids have been put into these little Mos through the years.

And the only players you would know who ever played in the Little Mos out of 10s of thousands of kids?.....Roddick 20 years ago and Ryan Harrison when he was little.

So what is your point? That Little Mo is the window to player development and proves little tiny kids should push balls back and forth at 6-7-8 years old?

Well with 1 top 10 player out of 50000 plus participants that isn't the best track record.

Come on Protour...its a charity that has little fun kids tennis tournies as its attraction. It has nothing to do with player development.

Macci has used the Little Mo thing for years to attract attention to his program. I think a few of the past girls winners came from his place. But he is a stone cold business man looking to make money. He knows that if the rich parents see his girls winning it they will come spend $400/hour for his time.

 

[Soianka]

The problem i have with the U.S.T.A isnt quickstart.I think quickstart is great for teaching little kids when they first start but dont punish all the other kids that are 10 and under and make them play quickstart.We travel to tournaments constantly and EVERY parent i talk to hates the mandatory quickstart rule.

I wonder if this is true.

it seems like parents are regarding quickstart as 'baby tennis' but in reality is is possible that QS might actually help develop better technical and tactical tennis players?

For the little kids, yes it seems like baby tennis, but for the 9 and 10 year old who are good to be able to control your shots on such a small court and really work on tactical things that may not be as easy to work on, on the full size court.

There is only so much court those little legs can cover but to be able to dominate on a smaller court and have to use spin to keep the ball in, have to use angles to open up the court, have to think, etc.

I know it is more exciting for the parents to see their little kids play like little adults, but maybe there are some positives to QS.

To me tennis is all about controlled aggression. It doesn't matter if you have a 120 MPH serve if you only get it in 10% of the time. To have a proportionally sized court relative to the size of the player seems to necessarily emphasize control and tactics.

I don't know, I'm not a tennis expert. But I think it will be very interesting to see what sort of players develop who actually went through QS all the way through the 10's instead of trying to avoid it because it is not exciting enough.

I was very impressed by the US Open QS exhibition. These were very talented little kids.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I wonder if this is true.

it seems like parents are regarding quickstart as 'baby tennis' but in reality is is possible that QS might actually help develop better technical and tactical tennis players?

For the little kids, yes it seems like baby tennis, but for the 9 and 10 year old who are good to be able to control your shots on such a small court and really work on tactical things that may not be as easy to work on, on the full size court.

I mean it's easy for one 10 year old to pass another 10 year old on a full size court. There is only so much court those little legs can cover but to be able to dominate on a smaller court and have to use spin to keep the ball in, have to use angles to open up the court, have to think, etc.

I know it is more exciting for the parents to see their little kids play like little adults, but maybe there are some positives to QS.

To me tennis is all about controlled aggression. It doesn't matter if you have a 120 MPH serve if you only get it in 10% of the time. To have a proportionally sized court relative to the size of the player seems to necessarily emphasize control and tactics.

I don't know, I'm not a tennis expert. But I think it will be very interesting to see what sort of players develop who actually went through QS all the way through the 10's instead of trying to avoid it because it is not exciting enough.

I was very impressed by the US Open QS exhibition. These were very talented little kids.

Yes it is a training tool. We have used a form of mini tennis for 30 years to do exactly what you say. Teach angles and positioning and allow kids to learn the game.

But in reality the kids get bored fast. They do not want to play QS for years. They want to move through it fast.

And if you survey tennis parents very few will take the time to drive a QS tournament for a 7 year old.

We have trained kids that will amaze you with their mini tennis skills just like those US Open kids. But they have no desire to stick with it. They use it as a tool to move on to regular tennis.

And yes it is difficult for 9-10 year olds to play proper tennis vs each other with regular balls and courts.

Thats why the Spanish system uses hand feeds to move the kids. Thats what talented coaches can do in a practice setting.

We know what kinds of players come out of regular training....Federer, Nadal, Agassi, Sampras, and on and on.

How did these all time greats get so good without going through QS for 3-4 years?

But I am with you....lets wait and see if one top 10 player ever comes out who used QS as their cornerstone program as kids.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Little Mo......do you know what that even is? It is a fantastic charity for cancer research. The money comes from parents who pay for their kids to play in some tournaments. Just like we have an annual bowling tournament for kids up north to raise money for breast cancer.

These are charities but have nothing to do with QS tournaments. They are wonderful charities.

Have you ever seen little Mo tournies? I would guess 95% are silly things for the parents and kids. Most are not taken that seriously except for a few crazed parents....they are for charity.

They have regionals and nationals to raise more and more money.....and you have never heard of any of the past winners except for 1 or 2.

Tens of thousands of little kids have been put into these little Mos through the years.

And the only players you would know who ever played in the Little Mos out of 10s of thousands of kids?.....Roddick 20 years ago and Ryan Harrison when he was little.

So what is your point? That Little Mo is the window to player development and proves little tiny kids should push balls back and forth at 6-7-8 years old?

Well with 1 top 10 player out of 50000 plus participants that isn't the best track record.

Come on Protour...its a charity that has little fun kids tennis tournies as its attraction. It has nothing to do with player development.

Macci has used the Little Mo thing for years to attract attention to his program. I think a few of the past girls winners came from his place. But he is a stone cold business man looking to make money. He knows that if the rich parents see his girls winning it they will come spend $400/hour for his time.

Yes my son won the U8 little Mo in his section last year, he was suppose to go on to regionals but we opted out, he was 7, it was fun and it was the first time he learned how to turn around few match points against him. Hope your daughter can experience that sooner rather than later but you will not let her because it will get in the way of her being the next Sharapova !?!?!

Their foundation has 3 million dollars in assets and give away 300K a year to develop youth tennis grants etc....that is what is on their 990 IRS and yes you are right they also give 120K to cancer

The bulk of the Jr. french open draw were former Mo players,,,,,,,,, you would guess very silly
http://www.mcbtennis.org/Little-Mo-Players-Make-Up-Bulk-of-French-Open-Field.aspx

The point is I have seen kids play at these little Mo tournaments and some have beautiful strokes and some don't. The point is they give back 300K a year to develop youth tennis. OTOH, you discourage parents and kids on an internet forum to participate in tournaments because their strokes are not perfect "according to you" which will be devastating to their tennis career whatever that means

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

I think it will be very interesting to see what sort of players develop who actually went through QS all the way through the 10's instead of trying to avoid it because it is not exciting enough

I have two boys, the younger is on QS (two years) and the older went through regulation (will revisit green for maybe 6 months). From now I can tell you the younger one will have better strokes, could be QS could be other factors, we shall see, they might both quit tennis altogether,,,,,,,who knows

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

We know what kinds of players come out of regular training....Federer, Nadal, and on and on..

do we have to go through this again :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us3ENfevCKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7DO5Duticg

TCF one last point who would you pick to win between the a player with the best strokes ala Safin vs one with unorthodox strokes like Santoro,,,,,,,,,,,,, I rest my case

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Ok, I see a whole lot of dumping on the USTA in this thread. I don't like the idea of of mandating QST60 (orange) balls for U10 tournaments. MAYBE for the Novice level but certainly not for the Challenger and Open levels of U10.

A whole lot of fingers pointed at the USTA but hasn't this system been used in Europe for the past decade or two? Don't know if it's true, but some had mentioned that Henin was a product of a QST system. Does anyone know how it is implemented in various parts of Europe. Is it for development & training only or is it employed for competition as well.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Oh wow, I jumped in from another thread & did not realize that there was already 7 pages of post on this. So it appears that Federer, Nadal, Verdasco and others are promoting Tennis 10s. Roger indicated that he used larger, slower balls in his tennis development.

 

[chalkflewup]

chalkflewup.....you could not be any more wrong. For every tennis pro rolling up in a fancy car there are 500 more that are not.

I volunteer 10 hours a week at the local park as do most other coaches I know. We deal with at risk kids. We have changed lives. Most of us enjoy what we do in exchange for very little profit.

The USTA has blown millions upon millions paying CEOs golden parachcutes, employing their buddies at huge salaries, over charging for tournaments.

They are a horribly run good old boys network that throws a few thousand to the peons for every million they give out in executive salaries.

If the USTA was not corrupt they would have millions more to spend in the trenches and the game would indeed grow fast.

There you go again on your "corrupt" little anti USTA train. Yawn.

I applaud your volunteer efforts, however; I don't know any coaches that volunteer 10 hours a week but, I know plenty of coaches that charge $80 an hour to feed balls for 45 min and kill the last 15 minutes letting junior hit a few serves. $80 an hour to teach a kid how to play tennis. That's a real problem. $80 an hour and you're complaining about tournament fees being to high? Please. The majority of that fee goes to the club hosting the tournament. So if you think the tournament fees are excessive why don't you campaign to have the club hosting the tournament donate a portion of their tournament fees to a grass roots program to grow the game. Your buddy Macci might be able to sacrifice some of his tournament purse but i don't think anyone else will (with his hourly private fees he can afford it).

You can continue to sour on the USTA but i believe you are barking up the wrong tree. The coaches are the trenches and that's where an opportunity lies to make an impact. I believe the USPTA needs to get involved with a grass roots program.

 

[seminoleG]

^ Oh wow, I jumped in from another thread & did not realize that there was already 7 pages of post on this. So it appears that Federer, Nadal, Verdasco and others are promoting Tennis 10s. Roger indicated that he used larger, slower balls in his tennis development.

We have serval kids from London that train with my daughter. They train with Green Ball 50% of the time. All Their Tournaments (London USTA equivalent) for 10s are Green Ball. However @ 10 they allow them to play up to 12s for Regulation. You can only play up 2 years no matter what your age. They do not have any 12 playing 16s. If you are younger than 10 and want to play Regulation you must then go to Tennis Europe 12s.

http://www.tenniseurope.org/JuniorTennis/Jun_Te_Junior-Department.aspx

So the more advanced 8-9s in London who are looking for regulation tournaments are playing up in Tennis Europe.

Now to a man the parents don't seem to understand what the big deal is, but consider they DO NOT PLAY the Green Ball tournaments either.

 

[seminoleG]

I asked why they don't enter any Tournaments while in the states. From what I have seen in Match Play these kids would easily beat most of the girls in the Top 5.
Also to a man they have been told by many of the Country Federations they play Tournaments in the USTA Jr System and Point chasing is a waste of time.

I can say from what I see QS and Green Ball TRAINING is superior for stroke technique. Based on 2 years seeing these kids.

 

[Soianka]

There you go again on your "corrupt" little anti USTA train. Yawn.

I applaud your volunteer efforts, however; I don't know any coaches that volunteer 10 hours a week but, I know plenty of coaches that charge $80 an hour to feed balls for 45 min and kill the last 15 minutes letting junior hit a few serves. $80 an hour to teach a kid how to play tennis. That's a real problem. $80 an hour and you're complaining about tournament fees being to high? Please. The majority of that fee goes to the club hosting the tournament. So if you think the tournament fees are excessive why don't you campaign to have the club hosting the tournament donate a portion of their tournament fees to a grass roots program to grow the game. Your buddy Macci might be able to sacrifice some of his tournament purse but i don't think anyone else will (with his hourly private fees he can afford it).

You can continue to sour on the USTA but i believe you are barking up the wrong tree. The coaches are the trenches and that's where an opportunity lies to make an impact. I believe the USPTA needs to get involved with a grass roots program.

I do agree that tournament fees are too high. There is really no reason for them to be that high.

As bad a job as the officials do in many cases, those should be volunteer positions.

So the only real expense are the court fees and the (cheap) trophies.

But I think lots of "tournament directors" make a living off of hosting junior tournaments.

And yes, these tennis coaches do charge a whole lot considering how many lessons a serious junior will need from age 7-18 or so.

 

[Soianka]

We have serval kids from London that train with my daughter. They train with Green Ball 50% of the time. All Their Tournaments (London USTA equivalent) for 10s are Green Ball. However @ 10 they allow them to play up to 12s for Regulation. You can only play up 2 years no matter what your age. They do not have any 12 playing 16s. If you are younger than 10 and want to play Regulation you must then go to Tennis Europe 12s.

http://www.tenniseurope.org/JuniorTennis/Jun_Te_Junior-Department.aspx

So the more advanced 8-9s in London who are looking for regulation tournaments are playing up in Tennis Europe.

Now to a man the parents don't seem to understand what the big deal is, but consider they DO NOT PLAY the Green Ball tournaments either.

That is interesting that they are only allowed to play up 2 years.

 

[BMC9670]

Have you ever seen little Mo tournies? I would guess 95% are silly things for the parents and kids. Most are not taken that seriously except for a few crazed parents....they are for charity.

Most of the top 8-9 year olds played Little Mo in our section last year. Saw some great players. It was actually my son's first tournament and was a good experience. I think by 10, 11 the best players don't play it because they are playing in 12U USTA tournaments.

Didn't realize where the money goes - makes that high entry fee more palatable!

 

[JLyon]

I do agree that tournament fees are too high. There is really no reason for them to be that high.

As bad a job as the officials do in many cases, those should be volunteer positions.

So the only real expense are the court fees and the (cheap) trophies.

But I think lots of "tournament directors" make a living off of hosting junior tournaments.

And yes, these tennis coaches do charge a whole lot considering how many lessons a serious junior will need from age 7-18 or so.

Right would love to see that happened. How many Pros will want to force their staff to work as officials and deal with out of control parents and many kids who could learn a little respect.

 

[Soianka]

Right would love to see that happened. How many Pros will want to force their staff to work as officials and deal with out of control parents and many kids who could learn a little respect.

I don't know. There are volunteers in that capacity in other youth sports.

 

[andfor]

I do agree that tournament fees are too high. There is really no reason for them to be that high.

As bad a job as the officials do in many cases, those should be volunteer positions.

So the only real expense are the court fees and the (cheap) trophies.

But I think lots of "tournament directors" make a living off of hosting junior tournaments.
And yes, these tennis coaches do charge a whole lot considering how many lessons a serious junior will need from age 7-18 or so.

Yes the fees are high. Although I see indoor tournament fees being almost the same as outdoor fees. Of course draw sizes are typically smaller indoors.

I have nothing against TD's making money off hosting tournaments. If they run a good tournament great. There's a lot of dynamics behind running a large tournament. Most Tournament Directors don't have enough courts a one sight to host the entire tournament. The alternate sites they use charge them for the court use. I don't know all expenses but would guess additional court cost could be a large one.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

There you go again on your "corrupt" little anti USTA train. Yawn.

I applaud your volunteer efforts, however; I don't know any coaches that volunteer 10 hours a week but, I know plenty of coaches that charge $80 an hour to feed balls for 45 min and kill the last 15 minutes letting junior hit a few serves. $80 an hour to teach a kid how to play tennis. That's a real problem. $80 an hour and you're complaining about tournament fees being to high? Please. The majority of that fee goes to the club hosting the tournament. So if you think the tournament fees are excessive why don't you campaign to have the club hosting the tournament donate a portion of their tournament fees to a grass roots program to grow the game. Your buddy Macci might be able to sacrifice some of his tournament purse but i don't think anyone else will (with his hourly private fees he can afford it).

You can continue to sour on the USTA but i believe you are barking up the wrong tree. The coaches are the trenches and that's where an opportunity lies to make an impact. I believe the USPTA needs to get involved with a grass roots program.

Then you are totally out of touch with kids tennis outside your comfort zone.

I have lived in PA and spent countless hours with coaches working at the Arthur Ashe center. They outreach into all the schools.

I lived in Sarasota and saw tons of volunteer coaches in Payne Park. Bradenton, many working in the parks.

YMCAs all over the country with Christian coaches volunteering.

Palm Beach County where we are now, coaches doing lots of low wage work.

Of course there are pros that charge $80,$100 or more for lessons. And for every one of those there are many others who volunteer in the parks and schools. And for every $80/hour coach there are 20 guys in lower to moderate income areas charging $20-40/hour.

The USTA is clueless. These grass roots people are what will make tennis better. The $80-100/hour people are just fine.

The USTA is disgusting, million dollar 'charity events' to wine and dine their friends and toss a few grand to the kids. Millions wasted in a few high performance kids. This QS nonsense.

You are not even looking at the right tree like alone barking up it. The tournaments do not make much money for clubs at all. The USTA gets a cut. You think $50 from 30 kids pays for utilities, insurance, maintenance, displacing club members etc? How about a killer tournament with 100 kids at $80.....wow, $8000 to pay all the bills and split with the USTA. They have $2000 left over and run 4 tournies a year. Yeah, those club owners are getting rich off those fees.

The tennis parents and kids leave many clubs in ruins with litter. Frankly I don't know why most clubs would even bother with the USTA 10s,12s, 14s with the disrespect that goes on.

What a bunch of out of touch garbage. The problem with tennis is the USTA upper management are a corrupt bunch of greedy buggers who could care less about the real trenches of tennis.

 

[andfor]

I don't know. There are volunteers in that capacity in other youth sports.

I can't think of one sport my kids have played in which the refs did not get paid which includes Ice Hockey, Baseball (including T-ball), Basketball, wrestling and tennis. I believe paying the refs some sort of wage in youth sports is the norm.

For the most part the coaches with the exception of tennis, are volunteers.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I can't think of one sport my kids have played in which the refs did not get paid which includes Ice Hockey, Baseball (including T-ball), Basketball, wrestling and tennis. I believe paying the refs some sort of wage in youth sports is the norm.

For the most part the coaches with the exception of tennis, are volunteers.

Its supply and demand. If parents felt comfortable putting up with the frustration of trying to teach tennis to 5-9 year olds, they would do it. More parents feel comfortable teaching little kids baseball and basketball.

The day enough parents want to take the time and effort and then volunteer to coach tennis, there will no longer be any need for tennis coaches for children.

I see parents giving tennis lessons to young kids and they either are teaching it all wrong or start getting frustrated within minutes. The number of times I see the parents and kids storm off the court within a short time is too large to remember.

I don't see that happen much when they are volunteer basketball coaches.

 

[julian]

Quite an achievement

^ Oh wow, I jumped in from another thread & did not realize that there was already 7 pages of post on this. So it appears that Federer, Nadal, Verdasco and others are promoting Tennis 10s. Roger indicated that he used larger, slower balls in his tennis development.

Somehow you managed to get my blood boiling by remarks about Europe.

 

[ga tennis]

Tennis is a game of movement.At 8 9 and 10 years old kids need to learn to move and track balls just as much as they need to learn proper strokes.Whats the point of having perfect strokes if a player doesnt get to the ball and get set up?I think that quickstart will slow the game down as well as slowing down kids reaction to the ball as well as their first step.My daughter will play the 12s next year even thiugh she is 8.Keep quickstart for begginers!!!!

 

[seminoleG]

Tennis is a game of movement.At 8 9 and 10 years old kids need to learn to move and track balls just as much as they need to learn proper strokes.Whats the point of having perfect strokes if a player doesnt get to the ball and get set up?I think that quickstart will slow the game down as well as slowing down kids reaction to the ball as well as their first step.My daughter will play the 12s next year even thiugh she is 8.Keep quickstart for begginers!!!!

Don't know what Section you are in so I am referencing the few Super Series I have seen with TOP 20 Girl 10s in SoFla. You must have a gifted girl :shock: and If I were you I would Video Tape her make a DVD and send to the USTA to get her training paid for.

 

[ga tennis]

Don't know what Section you are in so I am referencing the few Super Series I have seen with TOP 20 Girl 10s in SoFla. You must have a gifted girl :shock: and If I were you I would Video Tape her make a DVD and send to the USTA to get her training paid for.

She is no phenom but she is top 15 in Georgia in the 10s as an 8 year old.She is way too good to go backwards and play quickstart..

 

[seminoleG]

Don't know what Section you are in so I am referencing the few Super Series I have seen with TOP 20 Girl 10s in SoFla. You must have a gifted girl :shock: and If I were you I would Video Tape her make a DVD and send to the USTA to get her training paid for.

For Example the #2 or #3 Girl from NY (Won most matches 0-0)just played a Super Series and lost in the QF to a girl ~#30 wasn't that close of a match. #20 Gril from Mid Atlantic lost in SF to a girl ~#50 in florida.

All relative to Region/Location

 

[seminoleG]

She is no phenom but she is top 15 in Georgia in the 10s as an 8 year old.She is way too good to go backwards and play quickstart..

Yea for GA I heard you guys are livid. Why not get the Coaches to organize Club Matches like they do in Europe.

From what I have been told by parents that train during breaks/summers it provides a better competitive environment and allows the kids to play Tennis rather than Play for Trophies.

 

[ga tennis]

For Example the #2 or #3 Girl from NY (Won most matches 0-0)just played a Super Series and lost in the QF to a girl ~#30 wasn't that close of a match. #20 Gril from Mid Atlantic lost in SF to a girl ~#50 in florida.

All relative to Region/Location

We live in Georgia.

 

[ga tennis]

Yea for GA I heard you guys are livid. Why not get the Coaches to organize Club Matches like they do in Europe.

From what I have been told by parents that train during breaks/summers it provides a better competitive environment and allows the kids to play Tennis rather than Play for Trophies.

We do play against other academies.Its a sad truth but we do have to chase points because if her ranking isnt high enough she wont be able to get into any of the draws at the big tournaments.People can say what they want about kids not needing to worry about playing tournaments at that age but she improves so much after every tornament and she constantly looks at the list of upcoming tournaments to see which one she wants to play.She loves playing tournaments!!

 

[seminoleG]

We do play against other academies.Its a sad truth but we do have to chase points because if her ranking isnt high enough she wont be able to get into any of the draws at the big tournaments.People can say what they want about kids not needing to worry about playing tournaments at that age but she improves so much after every tornament and she constantly looks at the list of upcoming tournaments to see which one she wants to play.She loves playing tournaments!!

The Beauty of America is Choice!

from what I have witnessed there are 2 Types of Kids in the Top 1/3rd in Florida: I know parents from both groups and they laugh when I talk about this.

1- Point Chaser, Plays any tournament after combing over the applicant list to see who they can beat and get more points. But don't do well (final/Semi-Final consistently) in Designated's and Super Series. Plays 12s Locals and rarely gets past 1st Round

2- Players, Enter only the Big Tournaments no Locals rarely seeded above 4 or so and seem to win most of the time (QF/F). They never really improve their ranking because they don't play enough Tournaments. They win 60-70%of those matches

I have had many converstations with USTA FLorida on the subject of Regional/Sectional etc...... You have no Points you don't get in. So they promote Point Chasing.

That said if they put value on Quality of wins like the ITF this would stop. For example if I make the Final of any 10s Designated I should be exempt from any other 10s Tournament for the Year.

But that would mean no $$$$$ for Tournament Directors.

So yes you have to keep in the road, at least in Florida lost of close choices all the time.

 

[chalkflewup]

Then you are totally out of touch with kids tennis outside your comfort zone.

I have lived in PA and spent countless hours with coaches working at the Arthur Ashe center. They outreach into all the schools.

I lived in Sarasota and saw tons of volunteer coaches in Payne Park. Bradenton, many working in the parks.

YMCAs all over the country with Christian coaches volunteering.

Palm Beach County where we are now, coaches doing lots of low wage work.

Of course there are pros that charge $80,$100 or more for lessons. And for every one of those there are many others who volunteer in the parks and schools. And for every $80/hour coach there are 20 guys in lower to moderate income areas charging $20-40/hour.

The USTA is clueless. These grass roots people are what will make tennis better. The $80-100/hour people are just fine.

The USTA is disgusting, million dollar 'charity events' to wine and dine their friends and toss a few grand to the kids. Millions wasted in a few high performance kids. This QS nonsense.

You are not even looking at the right tree like alone barking up it. The tournaments do not make much money for clubs at all. The USTA gets a cut. You think $50 from 30 kids pays for utilities, insurance, maintenance, displacing club members etc? How about a killer tournament with 100 kids at $80.....wow, $8000 to pay all the bills and split with the USTA. They have $2000 left over and run 4 tournies a year. Yeah, those club owners are getting rich off those fees.

The tennis parents and kids leave many clubs in ruins with litter. Frankly I don't know why most clubs would even bother with the USTA 10s,12s, 14s with the disrespect that goes on.

What a bunch of out of touch garbage. The problem with tennis is the USTA upper management are a corrupt bunch of greedy buggers who could care less about the real trenches of tennis.

So cast stones at tennis parents and kids that play USTA tournaments for littering and trashing the clubs. Another generalization - it's not right TCF.

Are you a member of the USTA? If so, are you active within your section? Do you allow your kids to play USTA tournaments?

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Just for the record the USTA has around $300,000,000.00 is assets and makes around $50,000,000.00 a year. They give most if it back to tennis development. The total compensation of its officers are around $7,500,000.00

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Just for the record the USTA has around $300,000,000.00 is assets and makes around $50,000,000.00 a year. They give most if it back to tennis development. The total compensation of its officers are around $7,500,00.00

How about we refer to the actual record from the tax return?

A.P. and Sports Business Journal— U.S. Tennis Association tax forms show that former CEO of professional tennis Arlen Kantarian received more than $9 million in total compensation in 2008.

The 2008 tax year was the first for which the USTA was required to list the compensation for more than just one employee, so individual pay in previous years is not available.

In addition to Kantarian, the USTA, paid two other executives more than $1 million and a fourth just under $1 million. Six additional executives earned close to or more than $700,000.

Total compensation in 2008 at the USTA, including benefits, reached $50.4 million, up from $44.5 million in ’07, according to the tax return.

Kantarian declined to comment.

USTA compensation

Arlen Kantarian* Chief executive, professional tennis $9.15 million
Pierce O’Neil Chief business officer $1.39 million
Michelle Wilson* Chief marketing officer $1.07 million
Gordon Smith Executive director $987,430
James Curley U.S. Open tournament director $856,907
Kurt Kamperman Chief executive, community tennis $825,862
Harry Beeth Chief financial officer $722,422
Danny Zausner Managing director, National Tennis Center $703,041
Andrea Hirsch General counsel $696,955
Patrick McEnroe Davis Cup captain, director of elite training $694,305

We could go on and list the dozens of connected friends who also get large amounts of money, but I think you get the point.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Also, "giving most back to player development".....first of all not true according to tax records, and even if true, how much is wasted? Thats the point. If an organization "gives back" but is poorly run than changes are needed.

If a huge sum is given to a failing high performance program that is still a poorly run organization.

From tennis writer Charles Brinker:

"What started out as a fairly modest program with just a handful of coaches, has turned into a money-eating monster.

The USTA development program has put exactly zero players into this U.S. Open.

I’m kind of shocked there’s not more of an outcry from people,” said Harold Solomon. “People should be asking, ‘Are you guys getting the job done and, if not, what do we need to do and how do we do it.’ ”

Solomon has his own views on that subject and he begins by pointing out that the USTA has never developed a top player. Andy Roddick? Spent his junior career with a couple of private coaches. Mardy Fish? He was in the same group with Roddick. The Williams sisters? Coached by private academy coach Rick Macci in Florida and by their father, Richard. John Isner? Four years at the University of Georgia. Sam Querrey? Private coaches in California.

“A number of academies do a very good job,” said Solomon. “The USTA should just certify an academy based on certain criteria and let young players have the choice of going where they want to go so that the USTA doesn’t have to put together this huge bureaucracy that is getting bigger and bigger all the time. There is a much less expensive way of doing things.”

Meanwhile, the USTA maintains its own facility in Boca Raton on the site of the Evert Tennis Academy, complete with dorms and cafeteria. The problem, as Solomon sees it, is that it’s largely a waste of money. Why not just let the private academies do what they do best. Produce players.

Not long ago, the USTA asked Solomon to run a week-long camp at his academy for some of the USTA’s prospects.

“I tried to put them through a week of what it will take to be successful in professional tennis,” said Solomon. “And they looked at me as if I’m crazy. This is something we don’t really want to do.

I’ve known Harold Solomon for years. This isn’t some guy with an anti-USTA agenda or trying to square a fight with someone. This is one of the most thoughtful, incisive minds in the game and a man who has coached Jim Courier, Monica Seles, Mary Joe Fernandez, Jennifer Capriati and Anna Kournikova.

People need to listen to what Harold Solomon has to say. Not just listen, but take his advice."

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

How about we refer to the actual record from the tax return?

A.P. and Sports Business Journal— U.S. Tennis Association tax forms show that former CEO of professional tennis Arlen Kantarian received more than $9 million in total compensation in 2008.

The 2008 tax year was the first for which the USTA was required to list the compensation for more than just one employee, so individual pay in previous years is not available.

In addition to Kantarian, the USTA, paid two other executives more than $1 million and a fourth just under $1 million. Six additional executives earned close to or more than $700,000.

Total compensation in 2008 at the USTA, including benefits, reached $50.4 million, up from $44.5 million in ’07, according to the tax return.

Kantarian declined to comment.

USTA compensation

Arlen Kantarian* Chief executive, professional tennis $9.15 million
Pierce O’Neil Chief business officer $1.39 million
Michelle Wilson* Chief marketing officer $1.07 million
Gordon Smith Executive director $987,430
James Curley U.S. Open tournament director $856,907
Kurt Kamperman Chief executive, community tennis $825,862
Harry Beeth Chief financial officer $722,422
Danny Zausner Managing director, National Tennis Center $703,041
Andrea Hirsch General counsel $696,955
Patrick McEnroe Davis Cup captain, director of elite training $694,305

We could go on and list the dozens of connected friends who also get large amounts of money, but I think you get the point.

how about we list the whole article ?

Kantarian compensation is a cumulation of three years (3 million)

look I am not defending their compensation, they are executives that increased the assets of the USTA, are you telling me that the USTA gave zero $$$ back to the community?


Under Kantarian’s guidance, annual revenue for the U.S. Open surged to more than $200 million, and his pay was tied to how the event performed. He also is largely credited with introducing to the sport innovations like electronic line calling and blue courts, while also creating the Olympus U.S. Open Series, a branded circuit of summer events tied into the Open.

A USTA spokesman said, “At the turn of the century, the USTA made a conscious decision to invest in professional talent, and those investments have paid off. The revenues from 2000 to 2008 are up $93 million, and that is a 75 percent increase.”

Kantarian was not the only executive to depart the USTA in the last year. Several of his lieutenants also left the organization after disagreeing with the direction of the USTA under new Executive Director Gordon Smith, who has placed more focus on promoting recreational tennis.