USTA Tournament Frustration (10 & Under)

[TennisCoachFLA]

Protour....give it up buddy. You came on with $7.5 million to officers, implying $50 mil in profits of which you said most went back to the programs....a blatant error. The $50 million in total compensation is loaded with buddies on the payroll of various officers.

The total compensation of all employees is $50 mil....plus the $10s of millions that go to high performance. Does not leave much to the local parks now does it?

And now you cite the old revenue up nonsense the USTA puts out.

Do you know that the tax return rules have changed in 2008 so they can not hide their cheating as much?

Did you know they booked $20 million in give always at events as revenue....then base their compensation on it as if they were sales?

Did you know they count given away seats at low seed matches at the US Open as being sold for $200 each?? Then took their bonuses based on the 'increase' in revenue??

The USTA is a piggy bank for the connected.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Protour....give it up buddy. You came on with $7.5 million to officers, implying $50 mil in profits of which you said most went back to the programs....a blatant error. The $50 million in total compensation is loaded with buddies on the payroll of various officers.

The total compensation of all employees is $50 mil....plus the $10s of millions that go to high performance. Does not leave much to the local parks now does it?

And now you cite the old revenue up nonsense the USTA puts out.

Do you know that the tax return rules have changed in 2008 so they can not hide their cheating as much?

Did you know they booked $20 million in give always at events as revenue....then base their compensation on it as if they were sales?

Did you know they count given away seats at the US Open as being sold for $200 each?? Then took their bonuses based on the 'increase' in revenue??

The USTA is a piggy bank for the connected.

I CHECKED THEIR 2008 990, DID YOU ? I DID NOT SEE $50 MILL FOR TOTAL COMPENSATION, MAYBE YOU SHOULD WORK FOR THE IRS OR BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN ON THE INTERNET.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I CHECKED THEIR 2008 990, DID YOU ? I DID NOT SEE $50 MILL FOR TOTAL COMPENSATION, MAYBE YOU SHOULD WORK FOR THE IRS OR BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN ON THE INTERNET.

Sports Business Journal is a rock solid source and has been for a long time. They have lawyers and accountants on staff as they must defend any challenges.

Quote:

"Total compensation in 2008 at the USTA, including benefits, reached $50.4 million, up from $44.5 million in ’07, according to the tax return."

990s offer limited information.

The accountants on staff at Sports Business Journal dissect the entire tax return. Night and day difference.

 

[ninaz]

TennisCoachFLA,

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Gotta run Protour...have a good night.

 

[ClarkC]

look I am not defending their compensation, they are executives that increased the assets of the USTA, are you telling me that the USTA gave zero $$$ back to the community?

Yes, that is exactly what TennisCoachFLA was saying. He was saying that the USTA gave zero dollars back to the community. That is a very fair characterization of what TennisCoachFLA has been saying. (sarcasm alert here)

As I said earlier, you are not arguing in good faith, hence no one here is taking your side or being persuaded by your posts. Have you noticed that?

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Sports Business Journal is a rock solid source and has been for a long time. They have lawyers and accountants on staff as they must defend any challenges.

Quote:

"Total compensation in 2008 at the USTA, including benefits, reached $50.4 million, up from $44.5 million in ’07, according to the tax return."

990s offer limited information.

The accountants on staff at Sports Business Journal dissect the entire tax return. Night and day difference.

2008 IRS form 990

Line 15 total salary compensation and benefits........$7,677,941.00

DANIEL KAPLAN is just a writer for SBJ who like to sensationalize his stories, like every other journalist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Yes, that is exactly what TennisCoachFLA was saying. He was saying that the USTA gave zero dollars back to the community. That is a very fair characterization of what TennisCoachFLA has been saying. (sarcasm alert here)

As I said earlier, you are not arguing in good faith, hence no one here is taking your side or being persuaded by your posts. Have you noticed that?

oh really?

Line 3 grants and pledges...............$16,578,920.00

now go along and play with your sons stiff Kzen

stay tuned for 2009 and 2010 990 IRS form and I will find out how much they have given back to the community

 

[BSPE84]

2008 IRS form 990

Line 15 total salary compensation and benefits........$7,677,9641.00

Just for the record the USTA has around $300,000,000.00 is assets and makes around $50,000,000.00 a year. They give most if it back to tennis development. The total compensation of its officers are around $7,500,00.00

$7,500,00.00 and $7,677,9641.00?? Sounds like somebody could benefit from a QS version of math...

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

$7,500,00.00 and $7,677,9641.00?? Sounds like somebody could benefit from a QS version of math...

corrected........... I was rounding things, did not care to print the whole exact #, hey this is public knowledge you can look it up yourself

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

The USTA is disgusting, million dollar 'charity events' to wine and dine their friends and toss a few grand to the kids. Millions wasted in a few high performance kids.

SO TCF YOU ARE SAYING USTA TOSSES FEW GRAND TO THE KIDS? only a few?

do you want me to go through the USTA community outreach 990 and every 990 of every section and their foundations 990 and find out how much they have given back to the community, please don't make me go though this again?
I am sure it is more in 2009 and 2010 after your boy kantarian left

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

SO TCF YOU ARE SAYING USTA TOSSES FEW GRAND TO THE KIDS? only a few?

do you want me to go through the USTA community outreach 990 and every 990 of every section and their foundations 990 and find out how much they have given back to the community, please don't make me go though this again?
I am sure it is more in 2009 and 2010 after your boy kantarian left

The numbers you gave are $50 million in gross profit and you implied most of that went back into the grass roots programs.

The tax returns show compensation alone was $50 million. And we know millions more go toward the hand full of kids in high performance.

Thus a small percentage is left for the grass roots programs.

Your 990 you keep touting.....how much goes to high performance and its coaches and how much to a park program in poor areas? You can not answer that because the form you have would not split those things out. No one knows for sure. You are counting the total that goes into all programming without a clue what portion of that goes to high performance, how much to clubs owned by their rich buddies, how much goes to the inner city.

But take a step back and look at your own numbers and what it must cost for high performance.....how much pie is left?

These are not tennis lovers. They are typical connected men who use nonprofits to get rich. I guarantee you that you could find a tennis lover who is very competent to fill the positions that are paying $400,000-1,000,000 each for $100,000-$300,000.

If the USTA was truly a benevolent organization made up of tennis lovers I guarantee you the total compensation could be $25 million, the income generated just as high, and another $25 million could go into the tennis programs around the country.

These nonprofits are the oldest trick in the book. They always toss something down to the peons. But the goal is to enrich the guys at the top.

So if someone gets $500,000 for a job worth $200,000, and tosses us $1000, we should all hold them a parade I suppose.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Some more actual numbers for you. Remember the USTA is supposed to be a non profit that has the goal to grow US tennis. The ATP and WTA are pure profit money making endeavors.

Lets compare the salaries of the highest paid executives in tennis from 2009.

Pierce O'Neill USTA CEO $1.5 million
Adam Helfant ATP CEO $1.3 million
Gordan Smith USTA Executive director $1.3 million
Jim Curley USTA director $1.3 million
Pat Macenroe USTA high performance $1.1 million
Stacey Allaster WTA CEO $866,000

Four out of the top 6 people are from the nonprofit USTA. I also love how Pat Mac got a huge raise again. By the time one of his finds actually wins something notable he should be making about $5 million.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

The numbers you gave are $50 million in gross profit and you implied most of that went back into the grass roots programs.

The tax returns show compensation alone was $50 million. And we know millions more go toward the hand full of kids in high performance.

Thus a small percentage is left for the grass roots programs.

Your 990 you keep touting.....how much goes to high performance and its coaches and how much to a park program in poor areas? You can not answer that because the form you have would not split those things out. No one knows for sure. You are counting the total that goes into all programming without a clue what portion of that goes to high performance, how much to clubs owned by their rich buddies, how much goes to the inner city.

But take a step back and look at your own numbers and what it must cost for high performance.....how much pie is left?

These are not tennis lovers. They are typical connected men who use nonprofits to get rich. I guarantee you that you could find a tennis lover who is very competent to fill the positions that are paying $400,000-1,000,000 each for $100,000-$300,000.

If the USTA was truly a benevolent organization made up of tennis lovers I guarantee you the total compensation could be $25 million, the income generated just as high, and another $25 million could go into the tennis programs around the country.

These nonprofits are the oldest trick in the book. They always toss something down to the peons. But the goal is to enrich the guys at the top.

So if someone gets $500,000 for a job worth $200,000, and tosses us $1000, we should all hold them a parade I suppose.

I will make it easy for you, here an additional $500,000.00 every year right in your own backyard of FL. Do you want me to apply for you and the many hundreds of thousands across this nation add up.

http://www.ustasharethelove.com/grants.html

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Some more actual numbers for you. Remember the USTA is supposed to be a non profit that has the goal to grow US tennis. The ATP and WTA are pure profit money making endeavors.

Lets compare the salaries of the highest paid executives in tennis from 2009.

Pierce O'Neill USTA CEO $1.5 million
Adam Helfant ATP CEO $1.3 million
Gordan Smith USTA Executive director $1.3 million
Jim Curley USTA director $1.3 million
Pat Macenroe USTA high performance $1.1 million
Stacey Allaster WTA CEO $866,000

Four out of the top 6 people are from the nonprofit USTA. I also love how Pat Mac got a huge raise again. By the time one of his finds actually wins something notable he should be making about $5 million.

TCF I think you ought to do a youtube video like Ted williams, who knows you might get lucky, maybe you can get a job at the USTA and get off the streets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6kI_u3ho_c

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

TCF I think you ought to do a youtube video like Ted williams, who knows you might get lucky, maybe you can get a job at the USTA and get off the streets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6kI_u3ho_c

Ha, I saw that guy, hope he stays clean. I once was offered a 'job' from a buddy when I ran a large health club to serve on the board of directors for the YMCA in that district. He basically implied it would be nice money for a few meetings and some golf.

I said no thanks. I guess my parents raised me not to be able to sleep at night taking money without putting in the hard work. So I don't want $400,000 from the USTA for doing very little.

Got to look at that guy in the mirror every a.m.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I will make it easy for you, here an additional $500,000.00 every year right in your own backyard of FL. Do you want me to apply for you and the many hundreds of thousands across this nation add up.

http://www.ustasharethelove.com/grants.html

Several coaches I know have applied, never heard a word back.

The USTA is very tricky. On the website they have 10 or so stories about grant recipients. They head each one with...received from the $500,000 grant. Makes you think they all got $500,000 each.

Did you know they send $500 or $2000 to each group....not $500,000 to each group? The $500,000 is the total pie supposedly available.

How much of the $500,000 is actually distributed? No one knows. But yeah, they throw a few bucks to the peons. They are not stupid, of course they send out some money as to keep the scam alive and continue to take home millions at the top.

I bet that $500 really changed tennis in that town. Honestly, you know costs in tennis. How much can anyone accomplish with $500 or even $2000 for an entire area's programming? Sure ain't paying the staff $80/hour now are they?

 

[ga tennis]

I wonder how much money they have spent in promoting quickstart?

 

[seminoleG]

I wonder how much money they have spent in promoting quickstart?

Man if you were at the US Open you would have thought the Pros were playing QS:???:

I was thinking maybe the USTA looks at the top 100 in each Region each age group. Have Camps/Match play to see who is really got some athletic ability. Help private academies develop these kids. I have seen at least 4 girls in 10s one got to every ball and never quit. She was a dynamo but lost 6-1, 6-1. It will be a year plus before she wins any of these BS events. But to a man every parent there was impressed at how she moved but she lacked technique. She was one of the most athletic little girls I have ever seen. Whatever system the USTA uses in the future has to discover a talent like her. The current point chasing system will not allow this to happen.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Several coaches I know have applied, never heard a word back.

The USTA is very tricky. On the website they have 10 or so stories about grant recipients. They head each one with...received from the $500,000 grant. Makes you think they all got $500,000 each.

Did you know they send $500 or $2000 to each group....not $500,000 to each group? The $500,000 is the total pie supposedly available.

How much of the $500,000 is actually distributed? No one knows. But yeah, they throw a few bucks to the peons. They are not stupid, of course they send out some money as to keep the scam alive and continue to take home millions at the top.

I bet that $500 really changed tennis in that town. Honestly, you know costs in tennis. How much can anyone accomplish with $500 or even $2000 for an entire area's programming? Sure ain't paying the staff $80/hour now are they?

ALL OF IT IS DISTRIBUTED.

Whether $500,000 dollars or $500,000 worth of pennies dimes and nickels is still.......... $500,000 dollars!!!!!!!! and that is the additional amount that FL gets which is in the millions.

I looked at 990 of USTA FL section an in statement 3 in 2007 there is a detailed list of $296,259 total in direct community support, so add the 500K in 2010 and there you have it almost 1 million in direct support only in FL. Now go around each section or state and added them up.

Anyway, in our section, we have applied and got $25,000 to renew our towns four tennis courts which were badly ruined on one condition, they should have QS lines we raised $75,000 so far. We are doing a charity event tomorrow and will raise another $10,000 hopefully by the spring we will have our $100,000 to begin on the site. We shall have four brand new tennis courts by this summer

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Ha, I saw that guy, hope he stays clean. I once was offered a 'job' from a buddy when I ran a large health club to serve on the board of directors for the YMCA in that district. He basically implied it would be nice money for a few meetings and some golf.

I said no thanks. I guess my parents raised me not to be able to sleep at night taking money without putting in the hard work. So I don't want $400,000 from the USTA for doing very little.

Got to look at that guy in the mirror every a.m.

How much do you get an hour for privates TCF? When I come down to FL I want you to teach my kids.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

I wonder how much money they have spent in promoting quickstart?

few million, not few grand

 

[jgriff]

Thanks everyone. I am glad I am not the only one frustrated with this. My daughter does play at a tennis academy in a Quickstart Select Group. The group ages from 7-10 with the 60' ft court and orange balls for the less experienced and the 78' ft court with either green or regular balls for the more experienced. In Atlanta is gets more complex, because ALTA (Atlanta Lawn Tennis Association), which a majority of Atlanta juniors play (Alternates seasons with USTA junior programs), uses regular balls and full courts for their 10 and under.

does your kid play ALTA? my 7 yr old has been asked to join a 10 and under team. he's in quickstart as well.

 

[sureshs]

Some more actual numbers for you. Remember the USTA is supposed to be a non profit that has the goal to grow US tennis. The ATP and WTA are pure profit money making endeavors.

Lets compare the salaries of the highest paid executives in tennis from 2009.

Pierce O'Neill USTA CEO $1.5 million
Adam Helfant ATP CEO $1.3 million
Gordan Smith USTA Executive director $1.3 million
Jim Curley USTA director $1.3 million
Pat Macenroe USTA high performance $1.1 million
Stacey Allaster WTA CEO $866,000

Four out of the top 6 people are from the nonprofit USTA. I also love how Pat Mac got a huge raise again. By the time one of his finds actually wins something notable he should be making about $5 million.

Sounds exorbitant, but who are we comparing against? Elected officials? That is never a fair comparison, because many governors make less money than a successful salesperson in a private company. And much less than CEOs of small companies.

Are we comparing them to CEOs of for-profit companies? Many make less than this in salary, but far far more when you add bonuses and stock grants and options.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Sounds exorbitant, but who are we comparing against? Elected officials? That is never a fair comparison, because many governors make less money than a successful salesperson in a private company. And much less than CEOs of small companies.

Are we comparing them to CEOs of for-profit companies? Many make less than this in salary, but far far more when you add bonuses and stock grants and options.

The comparison from that chart was strictly the highest paid executives in tennis. The point was that a non profit USTA with a benevolent mission had higher salaries at the top than for profit companies involved in tennis. Most of the highest paid tennis people were from the USTA.

The bonus for the CEO in this case of the USTA was $ 3 mil per year on top of salary. I am sure other no profit CEOs are running the same shady deal, does not make it any more right however.

 

[sureshs]

The comparison from that chart was strictly the highest paid executives in tennis. The point was that a non profit USTA with a benevolent mission had higher salaries at the top than for profit companies involved in tennis. Most of the highest paid tennis people were from the USTA.

The bonus for the CEO in this case of the USTA was $ 3 mil per year on top of salary. I am sure other no profit CEOs are running the same shady deal, does not make it any more right however.

They will say it is needed to "retain talent" and point to some successful sponsorship deals, TV rights negotiations, USO attendance etc. Isn't this the same complaint that shareholders have against the board of directors of private firms awarding the CEO his salary and bonuses? Like Goldman Sachs or even GM. It is difficult to debate this as data points are limited. How can you prove that some other CEO could have done the same/better job? It becomes speculative. You can't prove what did not happen. If the CEO did a bad job, they can say it was still the best anyone could have done in a bad economy, and so he deserves even more!

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

The bonus for the CEO in this case of the USTA was $ 3 mil per year on top of salary. I am sure other no profit CEOs are running the same shady deal, does not make it any more right however.

there are salary compensation and benefit reports for all non profits for all to read, it is available on their 990's, the bigger the assets the bigger the benefits, it is public knowledge and the IRS knows them all, if there were shady then the IRS will be after them. http://www.charitynavigator.org/__asset__/studies/2010_CEO_Compensation_Study_Revised_Final.pdf

there is council on foundations, guidestar etc..... look them up go to www.IRS.gov it is all there to read

If I am the CFO of the Bill gates foundation (40 billion) and doubled their assets, I expect a salary raise or some type of bonus? don't you think

 

[topspinrj]

does your kid play ALTA? my 7 yr old has been asked to join a 10 and under team. he's in quickstart as well.

My daughter played on a 10 & Under Beginning Alta team (C5). Was the right level for her 1st season but now after that season and T2, it is not the right level for her, so we are either going to do 12 & Under Beginner or 10 & Under (C3/C4). Issue is my tennis center really only have C5 teams.

 

[Soianka]

...

ddd

 

[jgriff]

My daughter played on a 10 & Under Beginning Alta team (C5). Was the right level for her 1st season but now after that season and T2, it is not the right level for her, so we are either going to do 12 & Under Beginner or 10 & Under (C3/C4). Issue is my tennis center really only have C5 teams.

I wasn't aware there was more than one 10 & under ALTA levels. My kid's going to give it a go, so we'll see. He just turned 7 and I wonder about the regulation balls, but we've been practicing taking balls off the rise or moving back to get into position. Should be interesting to say the least, but he's pretty psyched about it.

 

[netlets]

All you need is the USTA to bring you more kids? I see a coach pulling up to a club in a Porsche and charging $100 an hour and you want the USTA to bring you more kids to teach? I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with this bitter anti-USTA attitude. As a coach, be an ambassador for the sport and go out and grow the game, network at the schools, talk to other coaches, set up ladders with other clubs, create some excitement, etc... We need more blue collar coaches that are willing to roll up their sleeves, get their hands dirty, get creative, and work together to grow the game.

I totally disagree and think he made excellent points. The USTA's job is to grow the game of tennis. It's sad, but the USTA deserves every bit of criticism they receive, as they are lacking in common sense all too often. I have been a USTA member for over 30 years as well as countless friends of mine (we are mostly 5.0 tournament players) and none of us are happy with them. I've been in the Eastern and New England sections and we are constantly in shock at the lack of awareness they have for the game. Whether it be the way the rankings in each section are conducted (I actually won a tournament this summer and my ranking dropped!), or the way they have now forced Quickstart down the throats for our kids. My son is 9, has been playing tournaments with normal balls since he was just under 8, and took his lumps initially. Now that he is 9 he is experiencing success since he is getting stronger and is winning tournaments now. He absolutely does not want to use the green ball. We used them when he was 5-7. It's not fair that he should move up already, since he is still much smaller and not as strong as many of the 11 year olds playing twelve and under. At this age two years is a major difference. So what do we do now? Just tell him there are no tournaments for him since we all agree he cannot go backwards after 2.5 years with a normal ball. Is this too tough to understand for the USTA? This program needed to be phased in. Once the kids that are currently using the regular balls turn 11 then the green ball should be brought in (next year). At this time, the kids who are used to using QS balls, green or otherwise, can be brought in seamlessly. Why continue to punish your most loyal customers? It seems this is the habit of the USTA...punish the people that spend the most amount of money on your events. Making the move this year to QS has made many of the parents that frequent the tournaments furious and many will just skip the rest of the 10's and wait a year until the 12's. My last point is that if the QS is so important to the USTA, why not give it the best chance to succeed? Don't anger people with it. Introduce it properly, when kids don't have to go backwards in their development. That surely does not keep children in the game. How many kids would go back to Tball once they were hitting a pitched ball for a couple of years?

 

[netlets]

ALL OF IT IS DISTRIBUTED.

Whether $500,000 dollars or $500,000 worth of pennies dimes and nickels is still.......... $500,000 dollars!!!!!!!! and that is the additional amount that FL gets which is in the millions.

I looked at 990 of USTA FL section an in statement 3 in 2007 there is a detailed list of $296,259 total in direct community support, so add the 500K in 2010 and there you have it almost 1 million in direct support only in FL. Now go around each section or state and added them up.

Anyway, in our section, we have applied and got $25,000 to renew our towns four tennis courts which were badly ruined on one condition, they should have QS lines we raised $75,000 so far. We are doing a charity event tomorrow and will raise another $10,000 hopefully by the spring we will have our $100,000 to begin on the site. We shall have four brand new tennis courts by this summer

You're really fighting an uphill battle in this thread aren't you? The fact is, people who have been around the game know better. You are putting up a good fight, I'll give you that, but really? The people that have a passion for tennis and still compete are mostly the people that are frustrated with the USTA. That means, the people that have contributed to tennis, brought in many people through teaching the game, live to play, and watch it on TV...we're the ones constantly frustrated because WE CARE ABOUT THE GAME. It's absurd what the top people make. It is NOT a non profit in our eyes. If I hear that the US Open had a larger attendance than any of the other Grand Slams another year I'm going to be sick. Why, because they built a stadium too large for tennis and are selling more grounds passes than should be allowed on a tournament day. The bottom line for the USTA is to make money. Forget the loyal fans experience, we just want your money.

 

[armsty]

If the kids are good enough, are they able to play up in the 12's which I assume would be with the yellow ball?

I am all for the quickstart system as we have had massive success in recent years in my city, we've got the first Hot Shot (quickstart in aus) tournament series of its kind in the country and it's rapidly growing bigger and better every time around, and it's definately the way of the future.

I understand arguments about these kids who are fantastic at 8 and 9 with the yellow ball. But unless these players are using topspin, slice, court positioning well, footwork, angles, coming to the net, serving out wide, down the tee, everything the pros are doing, then they're wasting their time in the hard ball comps.

We have 8 year olds still playing on the 36' court who are standing 1-2m behind the baseline ripping massive topspin groundstrokes to the corner and playing profession looking points. They will be slowly moving up the system and they love it, the success they can achieve is so much greater on a small court.

The people complaining about these rules are parents who have kids they think are going to be the next Nadal or Fed.

Tennis is evolving for the majority and that's that. It's not all about strokemaking ability.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

If the kids are good enough, are they able to play up in the 12's which I assume would be with the yellow ball?

I am all for the quickstart system as we have had massive success in recent years in my city, we've got the first Hot Shot (quickstart in aus) tournament series of its kind in the country and it's rapidly growing bigger and better every time around, and it's definately the way of the future.

I understand arguments about these kids who are fantastic at 8 and 9 with the yellow ball. But unless these players are using topspin, slice, court positioning well, footwork, angles, coming to the net, serving out wide, down the tee, everything the pros are doing, then they're wasting their time in the hard ball comps.

We have 8 year olds still playing on the 36' court who are standing 1-2m behind the baseline ripping massive topspin groundstrokes to the corner and playing profession looking points. They will be slowly moving up the system and they love it, the success they can achieve is so much greater on a small court.

The people complaining about these rules are parents who have kids they think are going to be the next Nadal or Fed.

Tennis is evolving for the majority and that's that. It's not all about strokemaking ability.

In America things are quite simple....when we have American tennis stars then tennis takes off among kids. Had Melanie Oudin been the real deal and now a top 10 player, 100000 more little girls would be playing tennis than are now.

Quickstart is a novelty here. Kids will play it at events. In reality they get bored within a few months and want to play 'real' tennis.

I am glad mini tennis works in Australia. I have seen the wonderful 'points' played on small courts. I have taught 2 year olds to hit nice shots with balloons and 3 year olds to look great with foam balls.....whatever. But none of us has a clue whether mini tennis at 8-9-10 helps or hurts long term development.

Research shows that young kids have a limited window to develop reaction time. Perhaps adjusting to a regulation ball at age 7-8-9 is vital to this process. Perhaps slower mini tennis balls harm this process.

Perhaps mini tennis will create many mediocre players but no stars. We don't know.

What we do know is that the all time greats as of this moment....Sampras, Fed, Nadal, Agassi, Graf, Martina, Evert and the rest.....were not trained using Quickstart or any such system. I don't think Stosur or Tomic or Hewitt were either.

I do not think Quickstart will grow the game in America. I do think a clever marketing campaign on popular kids shows, and the USTA making tennis accessible and affordable, would.

 

[armsty]

Quickstart isn't for the minority, it's for the majority. Not until a kids can move through the colours and show all the things i mentioned above, should they be regarded as "talented" (a word i hate using at any time)

 

[BMC9670]

In America things are quite simple....when we have American tennis stars then tennis takes off among kids. Had Melanie Oudin been the real deal and now a top 10 player, 100000 more little girls would be playing tennis than are now.

Completely agree. And even when we had the best in the world, tennis just does not complete culturally with other popular sports for kids/parents attention.

Here is a good example: go to Germany and pick up a comic book - yes, a comic book. Among the cartoons you will find tons of photos, stories, interviews, etc with the country's top soccer players. It's built into their culture. Now, tennis is not up there with soccer, but my wife reports that when she was young (she is German), you would find Steffi and Boris all over kids pop culture just like today's soccer players.

In the US, even when Sampras and Agassi dominated, this is not the case, it's NFL, NBA, and MLB players. This isn't going to change. We need to accept it and use QS as a tool to train kids already playing tennis, not expect it to change the culture.

 

[armsty]

Can I point out that you have womens ranks 4 and 5 at the moment.

And 4 men in the top 20 (8, 17, 18 and 20)

Australia? We have Womens number 6 and mens 54.

It's not about the top pros, its about what your USTA (or our TA) can do in terms of getting kids into the sport.

Now having read over what I just said, i sould like i know all my ****. But this is what tennis is like in my area, pretty sure its similar in many cities in australia.

Every primary school in our area has some sort of tennis, whether it be compulsory or not depends on the school, but the kids usually try everything they can. We as coaches always push for 1st and 2nd class kids, get them early. We don't do heaps of tennis, but more throwing, catching, quickstart stuff that they can get the satisfaction of success, while improving their skills. From there, they get the coach who goes to the school (always local)'s flyer taken home. The kid tells mum or dad they loved tennis today, they call and inquire. IF the club is smart, they offer a discount for first term kids, kids that have done stuff with them, etc.

How coaches go about their school works is different, I've done a lot of work here and there with several coaches. The ones who have the most success dont care about technique, they throw anyone up to 9 on a red ball court to start at the schools. Thats where success is easiest! The kids want success! Some coaches request 15 kids at a time, which i find is a waste of time, as they can't really get a great atmosphere. The best way I've seen is to get a whole class of 30 kids into it, different stations, rotation, keeping them active. Quickstart style. One coach takes on 60 kids with him and another coach, and has big groups and heaps of stations. The kids love it, as they can sneak into groups with their friends and compete with them insted of the 'assigned" groups.

Once they're at the club the quickstart system keeps them with success, along with coaches that know how to improve skills quickly, without the kid having to fail very much. Parents are asked to sit down offcourt, they usually form their parent groups and get chatting and become friends, they then see tennis as a fun activity for not only the kids but for them, they keep coming back, the kids improve, they are impressed!

I'm tired and probably missed something, but how do kids in the US get introduced to tennis?

 

[BMC9670]

Can I point out that you have womens ranks 4 and 5 at the moment.

And 4 men in the top 20 (8, 17, 18 and 20)

Australia? We have Womens number 6 and mens 54.

It's not about the top pros, its about what your USTA (or our TA) can do in terms of getting kids into the sport.

Now having read over what I just said, i sould like i know all my ****. But this is what tennis is like in my area, pretty sure its similar in many cities in australia.

Every primary school in our area has some sort of tennis, whether it be compulsory or not depends on the school, but the kids usually try everything they can. We as coaches always push for 1st and 2nd class kids, get them early. We don't do heaps of tennis, but more throwing, catching, quickstart stuff that they can get the satisfaction of success, while improving their skills. From there, they get the coach who goes to the school (always local)'s flyer taken home. The kid tells mum or dad they loved tennis today, they call and inquire. IF the club is smart, they offer a discount for first term kids, kids that have done stuff with them, etc.

How coaches go about their school works is different, I've done a lot of work here and there with several coaches. The ones who have the most success dont care about technique, they throw anyone up to 9 on a red ball court to start at the schools. Thats where success is easiest! The kids want success! Some coaches request 15 kids at a time, which i find is a waste of time, as they can't really get a great atmosphere. The best way I've seen is to get a whole class of 30 kids into it, different stations, rotation, keeping them active. Quickstart style. One coach takes on 60 kids with him and another coach, and has big groups and heaps of stations. The kids love it, as they can sneak into groups with their friends and compete with them insted of the 'assigned" groups.

Once they're at the club the quickstart system keeps them with success, along with coaches that know how to improve skills quickly, without the kid having to fail very much. Parents are asked to sit down offcourt, they usually form their parent groups and get chatting and become friends, they then see tennis as a fun activity for not only the kids but for them, they keep coming back, the kids improve, they are impressed!

I'm tired and probably missed something, but how do kids in the US get introduced to tennis?

This is my point. It's more about the culture and pros as role models. The Williams sisters have done a lot for tennis recognition in the US and it is spawning more interest, but as I pointed out with Sampras and Agassi, not nearly what other sports that are ingrained in US culture.

How do kids get introduced to tennis in the US? Pretty much only through parents. There is no tennis in elementary schools, rarely in recreation programs, and almost exclusively private clubs. My kids come home from school with flyers about joining little league baseball, basketball, football, soccer, karate, pottery, music, etc, but never tennis. It just isn't on the radar.

Back to QS. If the USTA really wanted to make some headway in growing the game, why not use some of the money to partner with elementary schools? At least kids would have an introduction that way. I understand the need to grow the game, but forcing kids under 10 who already play tennis to play QS is not the way to grow the game. Exposing tennis to millions of new comers is the key, and you can't do that in private clubs.

 

[ga tennis]

If the kids are good enough, are they able to play up in the 12's which I assume would be with the yellow ball?

I am all for the quickstart system as we have had massive success in recent years in my city, we've got the first Hot Shot (quickstart in aus) tournament series of its kind in the country and it's rapidly growing bigger and better every time around, and it's definately the way of the future.

I understand arguments about these kids who are fantastic at 8 and 9 with the yellow ball. But unless these players are using topspin, slice, court positioning well, footwork, angles, coming to the net, serving out wide, down the tee, everything the pros are doing, then they're wasting their time in the hard ball comps.

We have 8 year olds still playing on the 36' court who are standing 1-2m behind the baseline ripping massive topspin groundstrokes to the corner and playing profession looking points. They will be slowly moving up the system and they love it, the success they can achieve is so much greater on a small court.

The people complaining about these rules are parents who have kids they think are going to be the next Nadal or Fed.

Tennis is evolving for the majority and that's that. It's not all about strokemaking ability.

Whats the point of standing 6 feet behind the base line ripping massive topspin shots if they are playing on a 36 foot court?Wouldnt the ball be out?Its not just the parents who think their kid is the next Nadal its most every parent i have talked to that hates the mandatory quickstart rules.In Georgia last year we had an option either quickstart or regulation and most tournaments in Georgia didnt have ANY kids sign up for quickstart??I doubt any pro in the mens or womens game was forced to play under 10s with a small racket and low compression balls!

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Can I point out that you have womens ranks 4 and 5 at the moment.

And 4 men in the top 20 (8, 17, 18 and 20)

Australia? We have Womens number 6 and mens 54.

It's not about the top pros, its about what your USTA (or our TA) can do in terms of getting kids into the sport.

Now having read over what I just said, i sould like i know all my ****. But this is what tennis is like in my area, pretty sure its similar in many cities in australia.

Every primary school in our area has some sort of tennis, whether it be compulsory or not depends on the school, but the kids usually try everything they can. We as coaches always push for 1st and 2nd class kids, get them early. We don't do heaps of tennis, but more throwing, catching, quickstart stuff that they can get the satisfaction of success, while improving their skills. From there, they get the coach who goes to the school (always local)'s flyer taken home. The kid tells mum or dad they loved tennis today, they call and inquire. IF the club is smart, they offer a discount for first term kids, kids that have done stuff with them, etc.

How coaches go about their school works is different, I've done a lot of work here and there with several coaches. The ones who have the most success dont care about technique, they throw anyone up to 9 on a red ball court to start at the schools. Thats where success is easiest! The kids want success! Some coaches request 15 kids at a time, which i find is a waste of time, as they can't really get a great atmosphere. The best way I've seen is to get a whole class of 30 kids into it, different stations, rotation, keeping them active. Quickstart style. One coach takes on 60 kids with him and another coach, and has big groups and heaps of stations. The kids love it, as they can sneak into groups with their friends and compete with them insted of the 'assigned" groups.

Once they're at the club the quickstart system keeps them with success, along with coaches that know how to improve skills quickly, without the kid having to fail very much. Parents are asked to sit down offcourt, they usually form their parent groups and get chatting and become friends, they then see tennis as a fun activity for not only the kids but for them, they keep coming back, the kids improve, they are impressed!

I'm tired and probably missed something, but how do kids in the US get introduced to tennis?

America is different than Australia. Nobody knows the names of the 17, 18, 20th ranked men. They cared about the Williams sisters when they were #1, many, many girls came for lessons because of them. They cared when the American media said Oudin was great at the US Open, again I saw lots of girls come to try the sport.

Roddick is a nice man, but has no pizaaz and is obviously not the best in the world. Thats what sells in America. Combine that with the fact that its hard to say he will ever beat Nadal/Fed to win another slam and he does not help with marketing.

America is what it is, fickle and distracted by many other sports. For tennis to succeed here and grow you have to have several things:

1. An exciting American male player like Nadal or Fed.

2. A glamorous female like a Sharapova type, with the game to be ranked at the top. The second best would be a flat out great American female player who may not be as glamorous but is the best in the world.....Serena's replacement if she calls it quits.

3. The USTA running ads with currently cool pop stars telling kids how great tennis is.

4. The USTA fighting to get tennis into elementary school programs like BMC said.

And that would not put tennis anywhere near football, basketball, baseball....but it would make it a solid market in America.

Quickstart is not a magnet for American kids. Mini tennis has always been used by coaches for beginners. The kids move through it and on to real tennis. The vast majority of coaches know how to move kids through the phases, they did not need anything mandated like Quickstart.

Kids do not quit because they didn't play Quickstart. They do not join because of Quickstart.

If 1-4 above happened more kids would play tennis. 1 and 2 will happen by trying to get our best athletes into tennis early. 3-4 are likely to help 1 and 2 happen a lot more than Quickstart ever will.

 

[ClarkC]

My son is 9, has been playing tournaments with normal balls since he was just under 8, and took his lumps initially. Now that he is 9 he is experiencing success since he is getting stronger and is winning tournaments now. He absolutely does not want to use the green ball. We used them when he was 5-7. It's not fair that he should move up already, since he is still much smaller and not as strong as many of the 11 year olds playing twelve and under. At this age two years is a major difference. So what do we do now? Just tell him there are no tournaments for him since we all agree he cannot go backwards after 2.5 years with a normal ball. Is this too tough to understand for the USTA?

If the kids are good enough, are they able to play up in the 12's which I assume would be with the yellow ball?

armsty: Maybe it is best to read what has already been said in a thread so that you don't waste time asking questions that have already been answered several times.

 

[BMC9670]

I totally disagree and think he made excellent points. The USTA's job is to grow the game of tennis. It's sad, but the USTA deserves every bit of criticism they receive, as they are lacking in common sense all too often. I have been a USTA member for over 30 years as well as countless friends of mine (we are mostly 5.0 tournament players) and none of us are happy with them. I've been in the Eastern and New England sections and we are constantly in shock at the lack of awareness they have for the game. Whether it be the way the rankings in each section are conducted (I actually won a tournament this summer and my ranking dropped!), or the way they have now forced Quickstart down the throats for our kids. My son is 9, has been playing tournaments with normal balls since he was just under 8, and took his lumps initially. Now that he is 9 he is experiencing success since he is getting stronger and is winning tournaments now. He absolutely does not want to use the green ball. We used them when he was 5-7. It's not fair that he should move up already, since he is still much smaller and not as strong as many of the 11 year olds playing twelve and under. At this age two years is a major difference. So what do we do now? Just tell him there are no tournaments for him since we all agree he cannot go backwards after 2.5 years with a normal ball. Is this too tough to understand for the USTA? This program needed to be phased in. Once the kids that are currently using the regular balls turn 11 then the green ball should be brought in (next year). At this time, the kids who are used to using QS balls, green or otherwise, can be brought in seamlessly. Why continue to punish your most loyal customers? It seems this is the habit of the USTA...punish the people that spend the most amount of money on your events. Making the move this year to QS has made many of the parents that frequent the tournaments furious and many will just skip the rest of the 10's and wait a year until the 12's. My last point is that if the QS is so important to the USTA, why not give it the best chance to succeed? Don't anger people with it. Introduce it properly, when kids don't have to go backwards in their development. That surely does not keep children in the game. How many kids would go back to Tball once they were hitting a pitched ball for a couple of years?

My son is in the exact same situation. We're caught in the middle. I'm struggling to find good practice matches for him, which would be a good alternative. What section are you in?

 

[netlets]

My son is in the exact same situation. We're caught in the middle. I'm struggling to find good practice matches for him, which would be a good alternative. What section are you in?

New England Section...CT. Where are you located?

 

[BMC9670]

New England Section...CT. Where are you located?

Middle States... near Philly. A bit far for a practice match. Bummer.

 

[armsty]

I want to know now what balls these kids under 10 are using, hard balls, that allow them to have rallys, move each other side to side, use tactics, etc, without the rallys becoming big looping messes, I just don't see how it's possible for kids of this age to rally with a hard ball from the baseline and learn anything except for belting it with minimal spin to get it deep.

 

[BMC9670]

I want to know now what balls these kids under 10 are using, hard balls, that allow them to have rallys, move each other side to side, use tactics, etc, without the rallys becoming big looping messes, I just don't see how it's possible for kids of this age to rally with a hard ball from the baseline and learn anything except for belting it with minimal spin to get it deep.

As I've said before, my son used orange balls at 5-6, green balls at 7-8 and is now late 8 and is transitioning to regulation balls. He can sustain a rally with regulation, hitting fairly deep, with some spin, decent directional control, 2HBH with the recent addition of a BH slice if stretched. He can take a short sitter and put it away with spin and angle. Volleys are quite good. Serve is OK, but mainly flat first serve. Second serve with spin is a work in progress. When we play three and out (rally three times and then try and win the point) sometimes he actually gets legit points off me.

We do still use green balls for strategic rallying work and of course, he can hit out more and use more spin with them. His younger sister is still in the orange ball stage and sometimes he and I will hit with them for fun. And yes, he can do some pretty extreme stuff with them, but it's not realistic for him now. He's past that stage.

And, as I've said before, I would be OK with my son playing green ball leagues or tournaments for another year or even two (up to 10), but they aren't available here. All 10U play orange ball on a 60' court from here on out, and even those are hard to find.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I want to know now what balls these kids under 10 are using, hard balls, that allow them to have rallys, move each other side to side, use tactics, etc, without the rallys becoming big looping messes, I just don't see how it's possible for kids of this age to rally with a hard ball from the baseline and learn anything except for belting it with minimal spin to get it deep.

Not sure what type of coaches you have there but the Spanish and Euros and American and Russian coaches use a variety of methods.

Hand fed drills 'connect' the coach and player. You can manipulate the kid's footwork and movement and strokes just like you want them. You work on their spins, directionals, etc. all within 5 feet of the child. A good coach using hand fed methods can produce amazing players.

Racquet fed drills when they get a little older. Rallies with pros or parents. Use of green balls to keep the rallies intact for the U10s.

My question for you is why do you feel it is important for kids that age to be able to rally with each other anyway? Why the need to learn all tactics at age 7-8?

Tennis is unique. In any other sport kids have coaches and/or teammates to work with them or remind them on tactics at young ages while they play the games. In tennis they gradually learn to stand on their own. So what if they develop tactics at 11-12 instead of 7-8? Tennis is not like other kid's sports, never has been, never will.

Many wonderful players of all levels, weekend rec players, solid club players, to the greatest tennis players of all time have been developed using the methods I outlined above.

I am not sure why the need to reinvent the wheel here. Kid come to and leave tennis for many reasons, none of which involve whether mini tennis is available in a formal league form or not.

I do not mean to offend but I can take any of my students and within an hour have them dominating at mini tennis and destroying kids raised on mini tennis. Because it would seem like the game was at 1/3rd speed to them. They can do all the things you say. They can adjust and start ripping orange balls with heavy topspin. Its not hard at all. But it dumbs down the game and they get bored very quickly.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

armsty, you seem like a passionate young tennis coach. I know in Australia you could run this experiment since your mini tennis program is taking off.

Find the best mini tennis 8 year old you can find. Then find the best 8 year old raised the old way, moving on to regulation balls as soon as possible.

Train the regulation 8 year old for 2-3 sessions in mini tennis.

I would bet that the regulation 8 year old would dominate. His reactions will be so much better than the other kid, his movement so much more effortless on the smaller court, that it would not even be a contest.

To me mini tennis/Quickstart could be a success at making more recreation players to buy tickets some day to watch the pros. Thats all good.

But I guarantee you the top college scholarships and pros will all be kids raised the traditional tennis way. From the studies I have seen elite reaction time developed before age 10 is critical. I doubt the slow ball kids ever totally catch up. And a .01 second difference could be the key between a good college player and a top 30 pro.

 

[armsty]

armsty, you seem like a passionate young tennis coach. I know in Australia you could run this experiment since your mini tennis program is taking off.

Find the best mini tennis 8 year old you can find. Then find the best 8 year old raised the old way, moving on to regulation balls as soon as possible.

Train the regulation 8 year old for 2-3 sessions in mini tennis.

I would bet that the regulation 8 year old would dominate. His reactions will be so much better than the other kid, his movement so much more effortless on the smaller court, that it would not even be a contest.

To me mini tennis/Quickstart could be a success at making more recreation players to buy tickets some day to watch the pros. Thats all good.

But I guarantee you the top college scholarships and pros will all be kids raised the traditional tennis way. From the studies I have seen elite reaction time developed before age 10 is critical. I doubt the slow ball kids ever totally catch up. And a .01 second difference could be the key between a good college player and a top 30 pro.

Funny you say that. I did something similar, I worked at a school with a boy who is in a talent squad, his brother (15) just returned from playing on some form of junior tour in Spain I believe. The boy (8) was playing regulation ball and at a high level, I believe he went very deep in some strong U10's tournaments with reg ball. I, among others in a school group, put him on an orange court and he had no concept of spin, direction, pace, etc. He struggled to hit the ball in a good strike zone and he was used to the pace and bounce of a regulation ball, this meant he had no skills besides hitting a high bouncing ball. Slice, he was done.

We have several average kids at our clubs, train once a week for 1 hour, usually just mucking around as well, and they would have beaten him easily.

I believe in the quickstart system because I'm a part of a program that is developing fast and has dedicated staff and parents. Go find out about Mike Barrell and see some of his stuff

 

[Tennis_Stringman]

Sounds like TennisCoachFLA has the USTA all figured out, haha! The USTA works well if you are a member of the inside club however must of us are on the outside looking in. Pat Mac has certainly made the club work for him; be agreeable, never criticize the system and pay lip service to everything. It sure beats feeding tennis balls to a bunch of tournament juniors on Long Island which is what he would be doing if he had a different last name, haha!