I totally 100% agree with this. I will say, though, that I also got an email from Middle States that says the move up/split up rule does not apply at all for Mixed 40+ because it's not a national program. So, mixed has either (1) the harshest restrictions of all classes in 18s because you have to track nationals players in tons of leagues and levels at once or (2) no restriction at all in 40+.
USTA wants to "share" 2014 nationals with everyone
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I totally 100% agree with this. I will say, though, that I also got an email from Middle States that says the move up/split up rule does not apply at all for Mixed 40+ because it's not a national program. So, mixed has either (1) the harshest restrictions of all classes in 18s because you have to track nationals players in tons of leagues and levels at once or (2) no restriction at all in 40+.
tennisjon
Professional
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Oh this is too Good. Too good for words. So There is some Fairness in this world afterall. Rejoice everyone,,,,REJOICE
The email I got didn't mention tri-level, but the justification they gave is that there is no nationals for 40+ mixed so national rules don't apply. Since there are no nationals for tri-level either, logically the same would be true for tri-level, but I don't know that for sure.
The problem is there is a nationals for 40+ Mixed. It is April 11-13 in Maui. This will kill my men's 2014 40s team because several of my new guys are on the local team going.
Here is the link. Nats is in Hawaii.
http://www.usta.com/Adult-Tennis/US...s__mixed_invitiational_40__over_60_70_80__90/
I don't think it's officially part of the national program though since it's being called an "invitational".
That may be, that is how Tri-Level Nats works too. If it does not count and the same group does not make MXD Nats, my 40s team next year may be salvaged. Unfortunately, the likelihood of our local 18+ MXD team not making nationals is very low. They are incredibly stacked and the core of the team has already won Nats several times and the only difference this time is the women are a whole lot better than the group that won nats.
goober
Legend
I don't understand how you cannot play with your partner of many years. You and your partner= 2 people. You can play on the same team together maybe just not a team that has more than 3 nationals players from the year before, but certainly another team.
This rule was initiated to since Puerto Ricans are cheating in adult tennis league championships. When you burn the rotten, the rest of the innocent feels the heat too.
goober
Legend
It would- but I remembered when this was posted before people whined that it wasn't fair to bench players to get automatically bumped.
tennisjon
Professional
Not if the only other team in your area also has 3 people who went to nationals.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Sort of forces players to move up a level or merge with at least four teams. Only 2 local teams that won Nat'ls moved up a level.
goober
Legend
Form a new team, move up levels or just sit around and whine about it. You only need 3 courts in mixed. If you formed a new team you might have to *gasp* take players that are actually at the lower range of your level or even someone below your level, but would that be the end of the world. You could still play with your partner or do only want to play a dominant teams?
chay337
Rookie
There's a petition requesting a reversal.
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/reverse-the-usta-national.fb40?source=s.icn.fb&r_by=9109755
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/reverse-the-usta-national.fb40?source=s.icn.fb&r_by=9109755
tennisjon
Professional
Very true. I have captained once before. I am not good at the organizing part of it all. I just don't think that you should have to break up a team because of this rule. The USTA should just make teams that exceed the rule to be deemed non-National eligible. They can stay together. Play their league together. Maybe be able to go to districts and/or sectionals, but not nationals.
I don't play USTA leagues to go to nationals. I consider going to sectionals a bonus that we strive for. My teams, however, all compete to at least win their league. This is the first year I am going. I enjoy competing with my friends. I have been on teams that everyone plays an equal amount and its nice social tennis, but I am more competitive than that and want something more out of my USTA leagues. My weekend social leagues are for equality.
Still, the biggest injustice of this rule is to include all players on a squad regardless if they are qualified for nationals or not. I have 2 4.0 friends who subbed on my 4.5 team and are now being punished for a rule that wasn't in existence before the season began. They wouldn't have played, nor would we have asked them to play, had we known that this would cost them from being able to play with their other teams.
tennisjon
Professional
It doesn't work in mixed doubles. In mixed doubles there are 3 levels and 2 genders. That is 6 groups of people that could have someone who went to nationals and none of them could have gone together.
Brian11785
Hall of Fame
Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Regardless I love the oxymoronic "top tier 3.5s". HA!
I need to retract this statement related to 40+ mixed. Our sectional person contradicted what the district coordinator sent me when I forwarded it to a mixed captain and he started adding guys from my team. Apparently, players on a 40+ mixed team that advances to the "invitational" aren't considered nationals players, but 40+ mixed teams are subject to MU/SU as it relates to adding players from other nationals. So, when the mixed captain added too many people from my adult nationals team, he got a message from the section coordinator that that's not allowed.
schmke
Legend
I'm sure some of the players would be fine with not being allowed to advance to playoffs the following year if they could still play. The problem is, as written, the rule doesn't even allow forming a team with more than 3 Nationals players so some aren't even able to play.
Schemke, but that is because there is no hiatus rule right now. Just make a rule that says, if you have participated in nationals, you are ineligible for playoffs. No three people limit, but you must have enough others to field a team for playoffs, otherwise, the next team in line gets the playoff spot. The good players will still find a home while other people get a chance at nationals.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Why not play up?
schmke
Legend
That would be fine if they changed to rule to say play up or play at level and just not be eligible for playoffs. I was simply saying the rule as-is doesn't allow that.
JoelDali
Talk Tennis Guru
People that whine about sandbaggars are jealous of those that are able to corral the epic immortal Sanbaggar Supremes. When I played 3.5 I was called out as a SB and I was. But I was also 100% ignorant of USTA ratings.
The guy from Houston is also unaware of ratings. Some former GOATs of tennis immortality can get fooled by captains and coerced into playing God Mode against obese elephants with babolats.
The guy from Houston is also unaware of ratings. Some former GOATs of tennis immortality can get fooled by captains and coerced into playing God Mode against obese elephants with babolats.
If you play in Houston, I doubt they are unaware of the ratings. Houston is legendary for their ratings manipulation. They have several captains that are very good at what they do. Here in Dallas, we have many as well but we are not as good at it. Our hands are not clean so don't take it as a holier than thou, but Houston knows 'the game within the game.'
He played a year of 4.5 up here in Philly and dominated, losing only a single match at sectionals. He's definitely not unaware. He also has an request for hitting partners on Tennisopolis advertising himself as 4.5/5.0, so he is crystal clear about his true level. I give people a lot of beneift of the doubt in these situations, but this one simply does not pass the smell test AT ALL. This is the type of case that gives USTA tennis a black eye, and there should be sanctions of some sort against the player AND the captain that signed him up for 4.0.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse
KoaUka
Rookie
Believe that's an "invitational", do those count as well?
goober
Legend
Yeah Cha cha DiGrigorio was a definite sandbagger. She looked like she was about 30 years old while at a high school dance. Of course the whole cast looked way to old to be in high school. Olivia Newton John was 29 years old pretending to be a high school senior. So accept it or we would have never had a classic musical
Originally I was told no anything goes, but that was clarified to 40+ mixed players from the "invitational" don't count as "nationals" players for the purpose of the MUSU, but 40+ mixed teams can't have more than three "nationals" players from other teams/leagues.
bruintennis
Semi-Pro
When I was at the captain's meeting at the 40&over 4.5+ nationals, the tournament director quickly read the rule and said that the meeting was not the place to discuss it. He spent about 30 seconds on the controversial rule cause I'm sure it would have been a long, long angry discussion if he wouldn't have read it quickly and moved on to the next topic immediately.
No, it really doesn't.
If you want to be able to go to the top repeatedly I suggest playing in the open divisions or the ATP
If you want to play in NTRP divisions and you are upset that you cant keep taking the same people to nationals year after year .... too friggin bad, I have zero sympathy for you.
tennisjon
Professional
I have some problems with it. This year was the first year I have gone to nationals. I have made districts and sectionals before with different teams, but never made it out. On one of my nationals teams were two subs that helped fill in for matches that were inconsequential to us winning our league (actually, we finished second). They were actually rated .5 point below our level. They subbed just so we didn't have to forfeit a court. They didn't get to go to nationals. One didn't even qualify and the other didn't go because he would never get played as the weakest player on the team.
Now, this year, they are essentially blackballed from playing mixed because there are 6 levels/genders in which people are pooled from and the 3 max (which all came from different teams making nationals) mean that they can't play on the team. The other team in the league has their cap full too. Essentially, in doing us a favor, they screwed themselves over for a year.
I get the basics of the rule, but the application and lack of communication prior to implementation was way off. In mixed, it can be really hard to find a team to play on. People who didn't go to nationals or even qualify for nationals shouldn't be penalized for going, especially, if they played out of level.
I don't play to go to nationals, although that is a goal. I enjoy the exercise and competition, but I most enjoy being part of the team. There should be teams that went to nationals that are allowed to stay together and compete, but are not eligible to go to nationals if they don't comply with the rules of the 3 max. The USTA should be encouraging more play, not limiting it.
schmke
Legend
A simple modification to the rule would to not include all team members as a "Nationals player" but instead only give that designation if they actually played at Nationals. That would address at least some of the complaints about the current rule.
mikeler
Moderator
I was also "just a sub" who played the minimum number of matches in Districts to play at Sectionals and played 1 match at Sectionals so I could qualify for Nationals. Somehow I ended up winning all 4 matches including a blowout at Sectionals and now I go from a 4.5 sub to a 5.0 NTRP rating. ssgator80 who posts on here and was a starter remained at 4.5.
schmke
Legend
It was the blowout at Sectionals that likely was the key for you. Your Nationals win was rated a bit lower and likely almost pulled you back down to a 4.5.
I'm guessing at who ssgator80 is, but if I'm right, I agree he should have stayed a 4.5. Being a "starter" doesn't matter, only what the results are. And he had some close wins which didn't boost his rating too much plus lost his last match at Nationals.
I would have no problem with them dropping the split up rule if they just automatically bumped all players who played in post local league play (districts/sectionals/or nationals) on a team that went to nationals.
If you are good enough to band together and head off to Nationals the next year, good on you.
An even better solution would be to say you can go to Nationals once at each level and age group. So you can go to Adult, over 40, and over 55 at 3.5 once each. I'd even say you can play in mixed at nationals once as a 3.5, up to you whether you want to use that at the 6.0 mixed, 7.0 mixed, or 8.0 mixed.
These people going to nationals year after year really aren't helping to bring new folks into tennis.
If you are good enough to band together and head off to Nationals the next year, good on you.
An even better solution would be to say you can go to Nationals once at each level and age group. So you can go to Adult, over 40, and over 55 at 3.5 once each. I'd even say you can play in mixed at nationals once as a 3.5, up to you whether you want to use that at the 6.0 mixed, 7.0 mixed, or 8.0 mixed.
These people going to nationals year after year really aren't helping to bring new folks into tennis.
mikeler
Moderator
You got the right guy.
dizzlmcwizzl
Hall of Fame
TBH I suspect national aspirations are responsible for attracting a very small percentage of new league players (<<1%)
However, the same folks and teams winning local leagues year, after year after year are probably responsible for a fair number of people leaving league tennis.... hence the new rules.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Why don't they make sure SAME team doesn't win the division every year then ? Nothing changes, SAME team wins every year in the district or local division.
Do something about that and STOP letting people Appeal and get what they want. STOP the Appeals and the computer do its job.
Do something about that and STOP letting people Appeal and get what they want. STOP the Appeals and the computer do its job.
