UTR Questions

I had some questions about the Universal Tennis Rating.

1) Is UTR Rating considered more accurate than TRN?
2) I heard that more coaches are looking at UTR rankings as opposed TRN? Or do they look at both equally? I heard the Eastern states leverage TRN while the West coast schools leverage UTR?
3) Does UTR go by age or just by the skill level of the player your playing against?
4) Can you move up the list by beating other players at your same level?
5) Lets say your 12 on the list how many 13's or 14's do you have to beat to climb?
6) Also I saw someone post they were a 12.4 I only see 12 no "." point. Do I have to pay a premium to see that? Or how do I figure out how close I am to the next level?
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
1)UTR and TRN are more accurate in different situations. UTR uses the last 30 match results. TRN uses a full 12 month of results. If a player is on the rise or on the decline, UTR will be quicker to capture the player's movement up and down. However, UTR fluctuates more than TRN. There are time periods when my son's TRN has fluctuated only 5-10 spots while on UTR, his rating moved up or down .5. Most serious junior tournament players are at least 10.5 (ones who play nationals are probably 11.5+) and very few are above 13.5 so a .5 is a significant fluctuation.
On UTR a player can go down because his higher wins are replaced by lower wins. For example, within the last 6 months, a friend of my son's was 12.4/12.5. He played some large draw tournaments-one required for endorsement. The player had a lot of wins vs 12+ players but with UTR only showing 30 results, the UTR dropped some of his earlier (but still within 6 months) 12+ wins and kept the wins vs 8.5s-10s. On TRN he stayed the same; on UTR he dropped about .5. I think UTR would be more accurate if it kept 6 months of results or kept the highest wins within 6 months, if a player played more than 30 matches in 3 months. There are some junior tournaments where players have played up to 10 matches. There are a lot of player who would hit 30 matches in 3 months in certain time periods. The number of matches included is not an issue for college matches; most college players dont play over 30 matches Sept-May. Most play less than 30 matches in a year.

UTR rewards the player who plays hard and goes 3 sets against a higher ranked opponent before losing. That probably is a predictor that the player is going to move up in the future on TRN too; the player will start winning some of those 3 setters. TRN reflects head to head wins.

UTR is helpful too since so many players play up. TRN ranks players within class. However at an 18s tournament, there may be 13-18 year olds in the draw. How do you compare a bluechip freshman with a 4 star senior? One option-check out rating on UTR where age is irrelevant.

2) Calfornia, Texas, and the NE (Boston) have hosted opens with juniors, college players, and pros based on UTR. It is better known in those areas and well respected coaches vouch for it. My son has told his UTR (12+) to coaches in other areas, and he gets a blank stare-like what are you talking about? They just wanted to know TRN and ITF.

I think part of the reason colleges may not put much stock in UTR ratings is that many college UTR ratings are understated. Coaches look at a junior's UTR rating and may not believe it because it is higher than most of their college players. Many international freshmen start playing college at 19. If players take a gap year, they cant compete 6 months after graduation so those players have understated UTR. UTR includes college results from fall play, but many college coaches have not input fall colleges results into ITA ratings so they are not in UTR either. This is not UTR's fault. However UTR ratings have a reliability factor-think they have to have results of 8 matches to be reliable. So you have international players who did not compete Jan-Aug 2015, they may play 8+ matches in the fall which would give them an accurate rating, but the matches are not in the ITA or UTR system. I think the big Power schools input results, but a lot of the midtier schools are missing a lot of data.

3) UTR is not based on age-just skill. UTR is not even by gender. Now UTR is sorted by gender on the website, but an 11.5 could be a woman, a junior, a college player, etc. The UTR based tournament opens held this year did not have a separate men's and women's draw. There was one draw including men and women seeded by UTR.

4) UTR is not about beating a player-it is a about # of games won. If an 11 won 7 or more games vs a 12, the 11 player would go up. If a 12.5 player takes 3 sets to beat an 11.0 player, the 12.5 player will probably go down as it would be expected for the 12.5 to beat the 11 in 7 games or less.

5) Read 4. You dont have to beat any 13s or 14s to move up-you will move up if you are winning 7 games or more vs 13s and 14s while at the same time not allowing 11s to win more than 7 games against you.
6) you have to pay the 4.95 a month to see decimal places. To do some college sorts, you would play 9.95 a month. the $5 a month is a good value; the college sorts are not accurate-again not UTR's fault. Maybe after spring dual match season the college sorts will have meaning too.

There is someone from UTR that posts in the college forum regularly. He will probably respond to you. Bottomline I think you need both UTR and TRN. UTR has more international results. UTR also includes some high school results. However with the 30 match limit, I dont know if high school teams with tournament players will want to report HS matches into UTR Database. Even for players who won all their matches-which some on our team did-their UTR would go down because they would have some wins vs 8s and 9s when for tournaments these players were playing mostly 10.5s -13s. Dropping a 12 win for a 8 win hurts UTR rating. Some of the guys had 30 matches in 3 months without HS matches and with high school matches they may have played up to 20 matches in a month. Obviously inputting the HS results might help the 6s-9s on the lower high school teams but not many of those guys will play college tennis unless as walk on or low D3.
 
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Thanks for the great info as always. It sounds like my son is in a very good spot then. I just hope he can keep it going long enough to get into a good academic / athletic school to help offset the ridiculous cost of college tuition.
 
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jcgatennismom

Professional
As a blue chip, I'm sure your son is already on the radar of top coaches. Just keep him healthy, uninjured, and interested for several more years. If your son goes to the academy I think he does, I am sure the pros there have connections to coaches. Continue to read articles on TRN and parentingaces.com to educate yourself on the ranking systems and the recruiting process. You might consider deleting your last post as you have given out fairly specific info on your son, especially considering your ironically chosen username. Try to be patient with the process. Your son is already at the level of some college players but he has 3 1/2 more years of high school. Get informed but don't get bogged down in the details this early.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
Thanks for the advice. Would you recommend any of the Athletic Recruiting Services like NCSA? Or is it too early for this?[/Q

You don't need recruiting services but watch these free recruiting videos http://www.schollylife.com/Scholly Life Coaching. They will tell you what to do freshman through senior year. Later if you need consulting services to help find better fit for your son or to negotiate offers, you could look into their services. ( Scholarship for Athletes). I have heard good things about them, and their free videos helped us understand the process. I have heard NCSA pushes D3 schools and doesnt do anything you couldn't do yourself.

For now just find out schools of interest and visit campuses to get feel. See which players have committed or are playing for schools of interest, and try to talk to them about the recruiting process to X school and why they chose X over Y school. Commitments are shown on TRN, and through your network of tennis players and parents, you probably can get cell # or facebook info for those tennis players. Some of the committed seniors may be playing the high level 18s when your son is playing 16s, and you may be able to talk to their parents. Also ask the pros at your academy about the recruiting process at those schools. Then this May after dual match season, check the stats of those schools to see how many matches freshmen got to play. Check the TRN level of those players as juniors or seniors to see where your son would need to be. Since he is already a blue chip, he should be a candidate for most schools of interest if he continually improves his game. Check the schools of interest to see which recruit in state, the % of American/international, etc. Usually the top schools will take the top 30-50 Americans before going after international talent. I really don't think your son needs to write coaches for another 12-18 months but ask the parents of the committed students to recommend a timeline or timeframe. Also look at how many recruits schools take each year and how many return. Some schools churn and burn; they may bring in 5-7 freshmen and half are gone the next year. Others may field a smaller roster and develop players. You have to talk to players and parents about how manageable the load of school and tennis is. There are a lot of transfers in tennis-some because guys sat on the bench, and others because tennis practice demands and school load were too much. You can learn about the different schools now so you and your son can focus on fewer schools that are a good fit spring or summer after soph year.

Remember when the time comes for coaches to be contacted, your son will be the one to call or Email the coaches. Certainly you can practice phone calls with son or review/edit Emails before he sends, but the coaches want to hear from players not parents. The videos will help you know your role.
 
There is someone from UTR that posts in the college forum regularly. He will probably respond to you.
Thank you jcgatennismom for providing your detailed response earlier in this discussion thread. Should there still be further clarification required, we would be happy to respond to questions submitted via our website.

We have been advised that the TW Message Board Policies does not allow for self promotion of services, which would restrict our ability to respond to the initial list of questions on this thread. We respect the TW policies, as we believe there is great value that this forum provides to the tennis community.

Universal Tennis
 
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andfor

Legend
Thanks for the advice. Would you recommend any of the Athletic Recruiting Services like NCSA? Or is it too early for this?
When you find out how much they charge you'll say no. Like jcgatennismom, my take on them is they specialize more in helping players get into good DIII programs and maximize the merit award money available there. Her advice is very solid, especially about having your player make all the contacts personally.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
When you find out how much they charge you'll say no. Like jcgatennismom, my take on them is they specialize more in helping players get into good DIII programs and maximize the merit award money available there. Her advice is very solid, especially about having your player make all the contacts personally.
I used ncsa

10/10 would recommend to anyone. I got full ride offers from 2 schools and ended up going d3 but I never would have made connections with what ended up being my top 10 choices had I not used ncsa


The price is like 1200 but honestly, it's worth it for a network that many coaches use and that really does a great job sorting through every school in the us

It has a an amazing match system which matched me with 200 schools, ultimately 50 made my list and over 8 months I narrowed it down to my last few now.

It's amazing if not the best recruiting network out there.

If you're not a 5 star, I would get it every time
 

andfor

Legend
I used ncsa

10/10 would recommend to anyone. I got full ride offers from 2 schools and ended up going d3 but I never would have made connections with what ended up being my top 10 choices had I not used ncsa


The price is like 1200 but honestly, it's worth it for a network that many coaches use and that really does a great job sorting through every school in the us

It has a an amazing match system which matched me with 200 schools, ultimately 50 made my list and over 8 months I narrowed it down to my last few now.

It's amazing if not the best recruiting network out there.

If you're not a 5 star, I would get it every time
Great to hear from someone who followed through the process working with NCSA. Thanks for sharing.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Great to hear from someone who followed through the process working with NCSA. Thanks for sharing.
Everyone scoffs at them because of the price, but what's the price of finding the best and cheapest school? Sure I paid just over 1000$ but I found schools that are top 50 in the country and will cost me 50-60k for all 4 years.

Most people pay that in 2 or less years. When I graduate with less debt and a degree from a better school....you know I won't be regretting buying the ncsa membership. I have friends who only had 20 schools to choose from

I had over 200 schools


It's so much easier because you can find schools with a very specific filter from sat score range to what major you want. And it has a database of every schools contact information for the coaches. It's very easy and user friendly


ITd proven to work which is why parents aren't fussing over the cost.


Ncsa gets you where you want to go, even if you don't know you what you want.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
Everyone scoffs at them because of the price, but what's the price of finding the best and cheapest school? Sure I paid just over 1000$ but I found schools that are top 50 in the country and will cost me 50-60k for all 4 years.

Most people pay that in 2 or less years. When I graduate with less debt and a degree from a better school....you know I won't be regretting buying the ncsa membership. I have friends who only had 20 schools to choose from

Ncsa gets you where you want to go, even if you don't know you what you want.
Out of the 200 schools, what % were D1, D2, and D3? Since you are playing D3, would you have gotten the same academic/need scholarships anyway without tennis? There are a lot of lurkers on these boards, so for their benefit, would you recommmend NCSA primarily to 2 star, maybe 3 stars who are academically strong as far as rigorous courseload, GPA and test scores? For the D1 and D2 in your list of 200, was most of the aid they offered still merit and need vs athletic? I cant see the benefit for 4 star-blue chips. Does NCSA give just Email and office phone numbers or does it give cell numbers of coaches too? Usually the cell phone numbers are not on the college website, but coaches include them in Emails to recruits. I know a lot of my son's contact with coaches has been via text. My son is a 4 star but even his 3 star friends get a response to Emails sent to midtier D1 schools. In our section, there are 3 stars with offers from midtier D1 that they pursued on their own. That is why I wonder if NCSA is best for 2 stars.

My impression, and correct me if I am wrong, is that colleges that use NCSA to help them find recruits are obviously colleges that are not already being bombarded with Emails from US and foreign recruits. Since international recruits send out tons of Emails to D1 and D2s, I assume NCSA clients are mainly D3 and D1/D2 schools that are not fully funded for tennis and who are using academic $ to fill those unfunded spots. Therefore if a player does not have sterling GPA, test scores, etc, he/she is probably better off not using NCSA.

Ihatetennis, since you are very familar with how this forum works since you have a lot of posts, could you move these posts to another thread on NCSA or recruiting services? I am a relative newbie to the forum so I dont know it that can be done or not. There may be a lot of lurkers wondering about NCSA and they won't think to look for it under a UTR thread. College is expensive and the college recruiting process can be time consuming and confusing. Too many players transfer from making ill-informed initial decisions. They overestimate their value and abilities and end up sitting on the bench. Thanks for sharing from your own personal experience as it may help other recruits find aid or a good fit school via NCSA. We had gotten some marketing phone calls from NCSA but never scheduled a time to hear their pitch on services as our son was getting responses on his own.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Out of the 200 schools, what % were D1, D2, and D3? Since you are playing D3, would you have gotten the same academic/need scholarships anyway without tennis? There are a lot of lurkers on these boards, so for their benefit, would you recommmend NCSA primarily to 2 star, maybe 3 stars who are academically strong as far as rigorous courseload, GPA and test scores? For the D1 and D2 in your list of 200, was most of the aid they offered still merit and need vs athletic? I cant see the benefit for 4 star-blue chips. Does NCSA give just Email and office phone numbers or does it give cell numbers of coaches too? Usually the cell phone numbers are not on the college website, but coaches include them in Emails to recruits. I know a lot of my son's contact with coaches has been via text. My son is a 4 star but even his 3 star friends get a response to Emails sent to midtier D1 schools. In our section, there are 3 stars with offers from midtier D1 that they pursued on their own. That is why I wonder if NCSA is best for 2 stars.

My impression, and correct me if I am wrong, is that colleges that use NCSA to help them find recruits are obviously colleges that are not already being bombarded with Emails from US and foreign recruits. Since international recruits send out tons of Emails to D1 and D2s, I assume NCSA clients are mainly D3 and D1/D2 schools that are not fully funded for tennis and who are using academic $ to fill those unfunded spots. Therefore if a player does not have sterling GPA, test scores, etc, he/she is probably better off not using NCSA.

Ihatetennis, since you are very familar with how this forum works since you have a lot of posts, could you move these posts to another thread on NCSA or recruiting services? I am a relative newbie to the forum so I dont know it that can be done or not. There may be a lot of lurkers wondering about NCSA and they won't think to look for it under a UTR thread. College is expensive and the college recruiting process can be time consuming and confusing. Too many players transfer from making ill-informed initial decisions. They overestimate their value and abilities and end up sitting on the bench. Thanks for sharing from your own personal experience as it may help other recruits find aid or a good fit school via NCSA. We had gotten some marketing phone calls from NCSA but never scheduled a time to hear their pitch on services as our son was getting responses on his own.
4 stars don't get full rides, unless youre a girl

I would recommend it for anyone who isnt a 5 star or blue chip

I also got responses of my own before ncsa, but ncsa honestly helps a lot




Basically it matches you with shcools based on your ability, not all ranking based, so when coaches see that ncsa thinks a 3 star can hang in d1 they look at him and his videos if the ncsa coaches think he has what it takes. It also combines usta tnr and utr in a simple layout for the coaches, includes gpa courses transcripts and sat/act scores


Coaches like recruiting people they know they can admit, even schools who are top d3 use ncsa to get a 360 view of the player. Helps them understand the player and the potential as well.

out of my 200 schools, i was probably about 60-35-5 split d3 d2 d1


As far as the clientele, ncsa has kids in d1s that are more mid tier in rankings. A ton of d2 d3 and naia schools though, but every coach has a profile from what i can see.


The kids with bad gpas and test scores probably don't belong at harvard and would not enjoy it, ncsa finds schools and gives you a % of how well matched you are based on their acceptance scores and grads as well as ability.

I chose d3 because I could get a better education at 72k total over 4 years. Most schools that my friends are going to will cost them 130-150k for the 4 years.

I got absolutely no merit aid either, my grades are okay not great and my sat was good not great. I got in and based on my families income and need they awarded more than 50% in grants to me. While at ut austin or texas a&m i would be paying twice as much a year.




Ncsa is for people who want to enjoy their college life and be able to play at the school that fits them perfectly, it paved the way for me to go to a school that i will be happy and compete at a high d3 level. I also got a handful of d1 d2 and naia offers, but i would pick academics over division any day, plus d3 is strong inside the top 10 schools.



NCSA is for everyone who wants to be a working proffesional and not a tennis player. If youre going pro then you will end up at a top d1. It also lets you get a chance to evaluate your chances at a playing spot well, they will tell you where your level is compared to the team. Some d1 i looked at i would have been benched 1-3 years depending on recruiting classes and some d3 i looked at i would have been top 2 off the bat. neither place is where i would become my best and be happiest, now i am going to a school that i will play a little at the bottom first year or two and then have a chance to be a leader on the team.



I will post these in the ncsa thread, but i think that ncsa is a great tool and i would highly recommend it to anyone looking to play tennis in college but not tennis for a living.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
Thanks for details. This info will help parents decide whether to look into NCSA.

4 stars don't get full rides, unless youre a girl

We parents realize that hardly any boy-blue chip, 5 star, 4 star, etc gets a full ride today unless it is a combination of merit, athletic, and need. Most parents of 3 stars and up I know spend more than the equivalent of a year's total cost at a public in state college on their players' drills, tournament travel, shoes, strings, lessons, etc. I think most parents hope tennis will get their son or daughter into a school where they would not get in without tennis or that tennis will bring down the cost of a private or out of state school to the level of attending college in state.

Basically it matches you with schools based on your ability, not all ranking based, so when coaches see that ncsa thinks a 3 star can hang in d1 they look at him and his videos if the ncsa coaches think he has what it takes.

How does NCSA measure ability-based on a video that recruit sends in? A video of real tournament matchplay is a better representation of player's ability than a staged video against a weaker player.

it also combines usta tnr and utr in a simple layout for the coaches, includes gpa courses transcripts and sat/act scores
TRN allows players to post their GPA (not transcript) and scores on a portion of their profile that is only visible to coaches.

The kids with bad gpas and test scores probably don't belong at harvard and would not enjoy it, ncsa finds schools and gives you a % of how well matched you are based on their acceptance scores and grads as well as ability.

How does NCSA match players academically besides test scores which are objective? A honors college prep course in one high school may be easier than a college prep course in another high school. How does NCSA rate students who are homeschooled or take virtual courses? Many tennis players are 100% homeschooled or go to regular school half day and take a couple virtual courses.

Ncsa is for people who want to enjoy their college life and be able to play at the school that fits them perfectly, it paved the way for me to go to a school that i will be happy and compete at a high d3 level. I also got a handful of d1 d2 and naia offers, but i would pick academics over division any day, plus d3 is strong inside the top 10 schools.

Great insight for a 17 year old. There are a lot of factors that determine the best college fit for a player-not just cost, academic level, and tennis level. I think balance is key. Some players may choose the highest ranked D1 school that makes an offer, but their tennis or grades may suffer due to the amount of practice and travel. Each player needs to decide what type of tennis and what type of overall college experience he/she desires, and then look for schools that can provide that experience. Just because a player gets an offer from a top 75 D1 school, that does not mean it is the best choice. Player may sit on bench, player may struggle to keep 3.0. Does NCSA search engine only provide searches by tennis level and test scores, or do they filter by other criteria?

NCSA is for everyone who wants to be a working professional and not a tennis player. If youre going pro then you will end up at a top d1. It also lets you get a chance to evaluate your chances at a playing spot well, they will tell you where your level is compared to the team. Some d1 i looked at i would have been benched 1-3 years depending on recruiting classes and some d3 i looked at i would have been top 2 off the bat. neither place is where i would become my best and be happiest, now i am going to a school that i will play a little at the bottom first year or two and then have a chance to be a leader on the team.


.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
Repost of prior post as I meant to have questions and comments after quoted text but I did not know how to do. OPs text is now in italics.

4 stars don't get full rides, unless youre a girl

We parents realize that hardly any boy-blue chip, 5 star, 4 star, etc gets a full ride today unless it is a combination of merit, athletic, and need. Most parents of 3 stars and up I know spend more than the equivalent of a year's total cost at a public in state college on their players' drills, tournament travel, shoes, strings, lessons, etc. I think most parents hope tennis will get their son or daughter into a school where they would not get in without tennis, or that tennis will bring down the cost of a private or out of state school to the level of attending college in state.

Basically it matches you with schools based on your ability, not all ranking based, so when coaches see that ncsa thinks a 3 star can hang in d1 they look at him and his videos if the ncsa coaches think he has what it takes.
How does NCSA measure ability-based on a video that recruit sends in? A video of real tournament matchplay is a better representation of player's ability than a staged video against a weaker player.

it also combines usta tnr and utr in a simple layout for the coaches, includes gpa courses transcripts and sat/act scores
TR
N allows players to post their GPA (not transcript) and scores on a portion of their profile that is only visible to coaches. Most D1 and D3 coaches subscribe to TRN-not sure if all D2 do since D2 recruits mostly internationals whose info is not on TRN. Do coaches have to pay to subscribe to NCSA or is their account free? If coaches have to pay, I would think they would just look at TRN unless they were not finding recruits.
Also the list of school NCSA gives you-are they schools actually looking at NCSA profiles or is the list pulled from all D1/D2/D2 schools?

The kids with bad gpas and test scores probably don't belong at harvard and would not enjoy it, ncsa finds schools and gives you a % of how well matched you are based on their acceptance scores and grads as well as ability.
How does NCSA match players academically besides test scores which are objective? A honors college prep course in one high school may be easier than a college prep course in another high school. How does NCSA rate students who are homeschooled or take virtual courses? Many tennis players are 100% homeschooled or go to regular school half day and take a couple virtual courses.

Ncsa is for people who want to enjoy their college life and be able to play at the school that fits them perfectly, it paved the way for me to go to a school that i will be happy and compete at a high d3 level. I also got a handful of d1 d2 and naia offers, but i would pick academics over division any day, plus d3 is strong inside the top 10 schools.

Great insight for a 17 year old. There are a lot of factors that determine the best college fit for a player-not just cost, academic level, and tennis level. I think balance is key. Some players may choose the highest ranked D1 school that makes an offer, but their tennis or grades may suffer due to the amount of practice and travel. Each player needs to decide what type of tennis and what type of overall college experience he/she desires, and then look for schools that can provide that experience. Just because a player gets an offer from a top 75 D1 school, that does not mean it is the best choice. Player may sit on bench, player may struggle to keep 3.0. Does NCSA search engine only provide searches by tennis level and test scores, or do they filter by other criteria?

Again glad NCSA worked for out for you. Probably will work for some players who do not have preset ideas about colleges. I doubt any ITA ranked schools are looking for guys on NCSA. Lot of players are snobby about schools and have the same 10-12 schools on their list; some TRN lists are so ridiculous as players may not have a single school listed that is a realistic option. OK to list a couple stretches but 10?
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Repost of prior post as I meant to have questions and comments after quoted text but I did not know how to do. OPs text is now in italics.

4 stars don't get full rides, unless youre a girl

We parents realize that hardly any boy-blue chip, 5 star, 4 star, etc gets a full ride today unless it is a combination of merit, athletic, and need. Most parents of 3 stars and up I know spend more than the equivalent of a year's total cost at a public in state college on their players' drills, tournament travel, shoes, strings, lessons, etc. I think most parents hope tennis will get their son or daughter into a school where they would not get in without tennis, or that tennis will bring down the cost of a private or out of state school to the level of attending college in state.

Basically it matches you with schools based on your ability, not all ranking based, so when coaches see that ncsa thinks a 3 star can hang in d1 they look at him and his videos if the ncsa coaches think he has what it takes.
How does NCSA measure ability-based on a video that recruit sends in? A video of real tournament matchplay is a better representation of player's ability than a staged video against a weaker player.

it also combines usta tnr and utr in a simple layout for the coaches, includes gpa courses transcripts and sat/act scores
TRN allows players to post their GPA (not transcript) and scores on a portion of their profile that is only visible to coaches. Most D1 and D3 coaches subscribe to TRN-not sure if all D2 do since D2 recruits mostly internationals whose info is not on TRN. Do coaches have to pay to subscribe to NCSA or is their account free? If coaches have to pay, I would think they would just look at TRN unless they were not finding recruits.
Also the list of school NCSA gives you-are they schools actually looking at NCSA profiles or is the list pulled from all D1/D2/D2 schools?


The kids with bad gpas and test scores probably don't belong at harvard and would not enjoy it, ncsa finds schools and gives you a % of how well matched you are based on their acceptance scores and grads as well as ability.
How does NCSA match players academically besides test scores which are objective? A honors college prep course in one high school may be easier than a college prep course in another high school. How does NCSA rate students who are homeschooled or take virtual courses? Many tennis players are 100% homeschooled or go to regular school half day and take a couple virtual courses.

Ncsa is for people who want to enjoy their college life and be able to play at the school that fits them perfectly, it paved the way for me to go to a school that i will be happy and compete at a high d3 level. I also got a handful of d1 d2 and naia offers, but i would pick academics over division any day, plus d3 is strong inside the top 10 schools.

Great insight for a 17 year old. There are a lot of factors that determine the best college fit for a player-not just cost, academic level, and tennis level. I think balance is key. Some players may choose the highest ranked D1 school that makes an offer, but their tennis or grades may suffer due to the amount of practice and travel. Each player needs to decide what type of tennis and what type of overall college experience he/she desires, and then look for schools that can provide that experience. Just because a player gets an offer from a top 75 D1 school, that does not mean it is the best choice. Player may sit on bench, player may struggle to keep 3.0. Does NCSA search engine only provide searches by tennis level and test scores, or do they filter by other criteria?

Again glad NCSA worked for out for you. Probably will work for some players who do not have preset ideas about colleges. I doubt any ITA ranked schools are looking for guys on NCSA. Lot of players are snobby about schools and have the same 10-12 schools on their list; some TRN lists are so ridiculous as players may not have a single school listed that is a realistic option. OK to list a couple stretches but 10?

first one, for guys yeah there are hardly full rides and they are few and far between, unless you can afford it though, many small private schools can ggive grants off need based estimates that will make it cheaper than stat schools in a more personal environment with smaller class sizes


as far as not staging a match, they often look at stroke mechanics from my experience, if you have good technique and can hit the ball well then you can be coached to compete or compete at a lower d1 level.

my list was out of every school in the country, not just the ones on ncsa. ncsa helps schools recruit better teams by being to let the coach have some insight into the player. we have to write statements that are usually 2-3 paragraphs. utr tnr and usta are all put on a page to show our overall rank


the way ncsa matches students with school is the same for all, which is tough because of what you mentioned. they put your gpa plus your weighted gpa along with transcripts and sat/act scores

coaches list what their minimums are and they match you based on these. washington and lee university needs a 1300 sat m&r, if you are below that ncsa has a flag letting you know, but you are still able to pursue them if you wish. my percentage match with my school is 92% my match. I had many 99% matches with their algorithm and this just shows how accurate they are at predicting this.

their search engines also work by state region private or public hbc or not and all girls schools, school size and rural or urban as well as what majors are offerred


it helps you find the right school with the right majors for you.

it also alerts coaches who you match well with, even without you wanting them to. I sent in a video and they reviewed it, within a week i had 70 different schools look at me. since joining ncsa i have had 150 different schools look at my profile on ncsa, and a collective 450 coach views on tnr.
 

Rob_C

Hall of Fame
Repost of prior post as I meant to have questions and comments after quoted text but I did not know how to do. OPs text is now in italics.
There should be an edit button visible in the upper left hand corner of your msg when you're reading it. It should be in the blue title bar of the post. You might want to edit one of your earlier responses to PsychoTennisDad as well. It shows up as one big quote, no response, instead of a quote, then response.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
There should be an edit button visible in the upper left hand corner of your msg when you're reading it. It should be in the blue title bar of the post. You might want to edit one of your earlier responses to PsychoTennisDad as well. It shows up as one big quote, no response, instead of a quote, then response.
you only get this privilege after a certain amount of posts made
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
What is the usual UTR level gap between 2 players when one of them wins 6-1 6-0

I played a kid .4 lower than me and destroyed him, so how helpful will it be to my utr.

Also, I realize how long it takes for utr to change, but recently I have gone up 1 whole level since playing smarter.
 
I had some questions about the Universal Tennis Rating.

1) Is UTR Rating considered more accurate than TRN?
2) I heard that more coaches are looking at UTR rankings as opposed TRN? Or do they look at both equally? I heard the Eastern states leverage TRN while the West coast schools leverage UTR?
3) Does UTR go by age or just by the skill level of the player your playing against?
4) Can you move up the list by beating other players at your same level?
5) Lets say your 12 on the list how many 13's or 14's do you have to beat to climb?
6) Also I saw someone post they were a 12.4 I only see 12 no "." point. Do I have to pay a premium to see that? Or how do I figure out how close I am to the next level?
UTR is the future of tennis and college recruiting.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
UTR is the future of tennis and college recruiting.
College coaches have different views on UTR. Some say it is useful comparing college players to college players but is inaccurate for comparing juniors to college players as they say juniors are over-rated. Some coaches say they are looking for players that are a certain UTR level or above.

I have seen UTR fluctuate a lot for individual players-esp juniors (saw a guy go up to 12.6 down to 11.6 and then back up to 12 over a year with much less variation on TRN) so UTR would be more meaningful if there was an average rating over 6 months. UTR only counts 30 matches, and some juniors can play that many in 3 months.Floridian juniors would have higher UTRs in the summer when there are more clay tournaments; northern and ******* player might have higher UTRs in the winter when more tourneys are played indoors.

I think some college players are seriously under-ranked on UTR for several reasons: 1) lot of schools do not input fall invitational results into ITA or report them late so they are not input into UtR 2) incoming international freshmen may have taken a gap year and not competed in 6 months or more 3) all the unfinished matches in college once match has clinched. What if every time a guy is leading in a 3rd set against a higher rated player, the team clinches before he finishes? UTR wont reflect his true level. Ironically he would be rated higher if he lost quickly in the 3rd set as UTR views 3rd set wins and losses the same. UTR just measures if a match was competitive, not who won or lost. UTR ratings are the most inaccurate in the fall; by the end of dual match season most ratings are probably fairly accurate except for the guys who dont get to finish their matches. Players who played some in the fall but warmed the bench in spring and decide to transfer would probably be underrated for the above reasons.

UTR is being used for seeding and/or selection for new Oracle junior tournaments, some Opens, etc. I hope UTR will tweak the formula so there is less fluctuation. I dont think 3 set wins and losses should be rated the same. The win should have some premium over close losses. I have seen guys who have lost a lot of close 3 set matches rated higher than players than won a much higher % of 3 set matches against the same group of guys but maybe had one upset loss.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
College coaches have different views on UTR. Some say it is useful comparing college players to college players but is inaccurate for comparing juniors to college players as they say juniors are over-rated. Some coaches say they are looking for players that are a certain UTR level or above.

I have seen UTR fluctuate a lot for individual players-esp juniors (saw a guy go up to 12.6 down to 11.6 and then back up to 12 over a year with much less variation on TRN) so UTR would be more meaningful if there was an average rating over 6 months. UTR only counts 30 matches, and some juniors can play that many in 3 months.Floridian juniors would have higher UTRs in the summer when there are more clay tournaments; northern and ******* player might have higher UTRs in the winter when more tourneys are played indoors.

I think some college players are seriously under-ranked on UTR for several reasons: 1) lot of schools do not input fall invitational results into ITA or report them late so they are not input into UtR 2) incoming international freshmen may have taken a gap year and not competed in 6 months or more 3) all the unfinished matches in college once match has clinched. What if every time a guy is leading in a 3rd set against a higher rated player, the team clinches before he finishes? UTR wont reflect his true level. Ironically he would be rated higher if he lost quickly in the 3rd set as UTR views 3rd set wins and losses the same. UTR just measures if a match was competitive, not who won or lost. UTR ratings are the most inaccurate in the fall; by the end of dual match season most ratings are probably fairly accurate except for the guys who dont get to finish their matches. Players who played some in the fall but warmed the bench in spring and decide to transfer would probably be underrated for the above reasons.

UTR is being used for seeding and/or selection for new Oracle junior tournaments, some Opens, etc. I hope UTR will tweak the formula so there is less fluctuation. I dont think 3 set wins and losses should be rated the same. The win should have some premium over close losses. I have seen guys who have lost a lot of close 3 set matches rated higher than players than won a much higher % of 3 set matches against the same group of guys but maybe had one upset loss.
I think some d3 conferences get hit with a lot of underrating. I know a player who is now a sophomore and no.1 for the second year on his team who is rated 10.25..... Even though he has the play and results of someone who is rated 12-12.5.

He had a 15 or so match win streak after spring break and only lost to nationally rated opponents.
 
Hard to say. Did this player have quality wins or just beat a bunch of average players. Only a handful of players in Division3 are at 12.5. What conference was this player in?
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Hard to say. Did this player have quality wins or just beat a bunch of average players. Only a handful of players in Division3 are at 12.5. What conference was this player in?
beat regionally and nationally ranked oponents.

Vitalii stadnyk. Super underrated. Huge serves and groundstrokes.

a 10.25 can't get mvp of the year 2 times in a row and go undefeated at line 1 in a conference.


I have played utr 12s and him, he would wipe the floor with them.

HCAC conference.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
There needs to be more cross play between the different college divisions and between college players and juniors to ensure UTR accuracy. Within each grouping, the relative ratings of players may be fairly accurate, but if a D3 player only plays other D3 players, he is not going to move up on UTR. US D3 players can play ITA showcases, US open regional wildcard qualifier tourneys, etc this summer to attempt to show they are competitive with D1 and to increase their UTR rating. 10.31 is a fairly low UTR rating for college; our 2D on the high school tennis team is rated higher than that. In fact on paper per UTR , many local high school teams would trounce all but the top 25 D3 teams, as many teams have 2 singles players at 12+ and round out the teams with 10s and 11s; at least 5 teams have 12.5+ singles players. I know one team my son's team beat even had a 12 at 2D; all their top 7 were 11+. However your guy Vitalii might be able to beat all those guys-who knows without the crossplay. My son has a freshman friend who had a winning season at a top 20 D2 team, yet that player is ranked only 11.37. Top D2 and D3 players are probably underrated. There are 45 junior male players just in my state 8th grade to seniors who are rated 12+, and my state isnt California or Florida. There are less than 60 total 12+ players in all of men's D3. That may not make sense to you, and possibly some of these UTR ratings will adjust up and down with summer cross play. UTR is just one measurement tool, and any college player who thinks he is underrated has the option to pursue playing Future Qualifiers and other summer tournaments to show he/she can compete with higher rated players and improve his/her UTR rating.

Many D1 college teams are sending players to Future/qualifiers in the fall instead of or in addition to fall invitationals. It will be interesting to see if any top D3 teams do the same. Do D3 teams play at all in the fall? Is it against D3 rules for D3 players to compete in fall events like Futures?
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
There needs to be more cross play between the different college divisions and between college players and juniors to ensure UTR accuracy. Within each grouping, the relative ratings of players may be fairly accurate, but if a D3 player only plays other D3 players, he is not going to move up on UTR. US D3 players can play ITA showcases, US open regional wildcard qualifier tourneys, etc this summer to attempt to show they are competitive with D1 and to increase their UTR rating. 10.31 is a fairly low UTR rating for college; our 2D on the high school tennis team is rated higher than that. In fact on paper per UTR , many local high school teams would trounce all but the top 25 D3 teams, as many teams have 2 singles players at 12+ and round out the teams with 10s and 11s; at least 5 teams have 12.5+ singles players. I know one team my son's team beat even had a 12 at 2D; all their top 7 were 11+. However your guy Vitalii might be able to beat all those guys-who knows without the crossplay. My son has a freshman friend who had a winning season at a top 20 D2 team, yet that player is ranked only 11.37. Top D2 and D3 players are probably underrated. There are 45 junior male players just in my state 8th grade to seniors who are rated 12+, and my state isnt California or Florida. There are less than 60 total 12+ players in all of men's D3. That may not make sense to you, and possibly some of these UTR ratings will adjust up and down with summer cross play. UTR is just one measurement tool, and any college player who thinks he is underrated has the option to pursue playing Future Qualifiers and other summer tournaments to show he/she can compete with higher rated players and improve his/her UTR rating.

Many D1 college teams are sending players to Future/qualifiers in the fall instead of or in addition to fall invitationals. It will be interesting to see if any top D3 teams do the same. Do D3 teams play at all in the fall? Is it against D3 rules for D3 players to compete in fall events like Futures?

D3 teams don't send their kids to futures since our season is basically until ita's end.

Without cross play the bubble for player ratings is stuck. On his utr before he started college tennis he was playing against 13s and going into 3 sets with them. Since he does not play against those guys those matches dropped off and he hasn't even played a 12 according to utr in over a year.

A guy going 3 sets at 13 is not going to drop level, especially if his college results are only getting better.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
T
D3 teams don't send their kids to futures since our season is basically until ita's end.

Without cross play the bubble for player ratings is stuck. On his utr before he started college tennis he was playing against 13s and going into 3 sets with them. Since he does not play against those guys those matches dropped off and he hasn't even played a 12 according to utr in over a year.

A guy going 3 sets at 13 is not going to drop level, especially if his college results are only getting better.
I looked the guy up out of curiosity, and the losses he had against high 12s were in 2013 in grade 4 and 5 ITF qualifiers. His opponents may be high 12s now but it is hard to know what they were in 2013. UTR shows current rating, not rating of opponent when match was played. If they are 12.8s now, they might have been 10.8s or below then. I also see the guy has lost to several US players who were 2 and 3 stars in the juniors. Of course they may have grown 4 inches, gained 30 lbs of muscle, and reinvented their game since the juniors. Maybe your teammate will play some Futures in his own country this summer and come back a 12 next year. Since he won most of his matches, does D3 have individual national championships this month where he could compete against the 12+ D3 players? Or may be he will transfer to a higher D3 team or D2 team. Is it unusual for a D3 team to have 2 international starters? Usually D3 teams are 90% US players since D3 does not offer athletic aid. I dont keep up with D3 as very few 4 star or higher players from our section go D3; if they are that smart, they usually play Ivy. Mostly 2 stars from our section play D3. Maybe one 5 star guy a year goes to play for one of the top 5 D3s.

Now that some Opens, the Oracle Regionals, etc base selection on UTRs, players need to take ownership of their UTR ratings. If they are killing their low rated college opponents, they can get themselves unstuck from their UTR bubble by playing outside tournaments in the summer or fall.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
T


I looked the guy up out of curiosity, and the losses he had against high 12s were in 2013 in grade 4 and 5 ITF qualifiers. His opponents may be high 12s now but it is hard to know what they were in 2013. UTR shows current rating, not rating of opponent when match was played. If they are 12.8s now, they might have been 10.8s or below then. I also see the guy has lost to several US players who were 2 and 3 stars in the juniors. Of course they may have grown 4 inches, gained 30 lbs of muscle, and reinvented their game since the juniors. Maybe your teammate will play some Futures in his own country this summer and come back a 12 next year. Since he won most of his matches, does D3 have individual national championships this month where he could compete against the 12+ D3 players? Or may be he will transfer to a higher D3 team or D2 team. Is it unusual for a D3 team to have 2 international starters? Usually D3 teams are 90% US players since D3 does not offer athletic aid. I dont keep up with D3 as very few 4 star or higher players from our section go D3; if they are that smart, they usually play Ivy. Mostly 2 stars from our section play D3. Maybe one 5 star guy a year goes to play for one of the top 5 D3s.

Now that some Opens, the Oracle Regionals, etc base selection on UTRs, players need to take ownership of their UTR ratings. If they are killing their low rated college opponents, they can get themselves unstuck from their UTR bubble by playing outside tournaments in the summer or fall.
I think he will play futures this summer. Honestly he is a great player. I am a 9.55 right now and I would get killed by him.

There is a video on youtube if you look him up

At 16 he has great consistency and power. Now he is 4 or 5 years older and 60 pounds heavier.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
I think he will play futures this summer.
There is a video on youtube if you look him up

At 16 he has great consistency and power. Now he is 4 or 5 years older and 60 pounds heavier.
Your teammate has some great overheads and placed his cross courts to the corners nicely, but a lot of his and his hitting partner's play is back and forth down the middle. His hitting partner hits everything back straight to him. In a real match, players are pulled off court for deep corner shots (or hit on rise), player have to retrieve, recover, and be ready for the next shot. His hitting partner was returning shots so it was easy for him to look good. Still he looks similar to some 11.5+ juniors I have watched, and that video is a couple years old. Would be interesting to see video of him against a similar level player. Looks like he was hitting hard strokes and serves then, and since he has bulked up now, he would have even more power. He could very easily be a 12+ now.

That is what my son needs to do is to bulk up. He has grown 5-6 inches over the last 18 months, gained some weight but not enough for his height. D1 college players are so physical and can stand their ground. Can't get away with just being scrawny and scrappy like in the juniors-running down every ball. What do you think is the ideal weight for a 6 or 6'1 college player?
 
I think he will play futures this summer. Honestly he is a great player. I am a 9.55 right now and I would get killed by him.

There is a video on youtube if you look him up

At 16 he has great consistency and power. Now he is 4 or 5 years older and 60 pounds heavier.
Ok player. So many good college players now at all levels Div 1, 2, 3 he would have to get a lot better to have a shot at doing well in futures this summer.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Your teammate has some great overheads and placed his cross courts to the corners nicely, but a lot of his and his hitting partner's play is back and forth down the middle. His hitting partner hits everything back straight to him. In a real match, players are pulled off court for deep corner shots (or hit on rise), player have to retrieve, recover, and be ready for the next shot. His hitting partner was returning shots so it was easy for him to look good. Still he looks similar to some 11.5+ juniors I have watched, and that video is a couple years old. Would be interesting to see video of him against a similar level player. Looks like he was hitting hard strokes and serves then, and since he has bulked up now, he would have even more power. He could very easily be a 12+ now.

That is what my son needs to do is to bulk up. He has grown 5-6 inches over the last 18 months, gained some weight but not enough for his height. D1 college players are so physical and can stand their ground. Can't get away with just being scrawny and scrappy like in the juniors-running down every ball. What do you think is the ideal weight for a 6 or 6'1 college player?
160-180 is about the right weight fro tennis players. Not many are heavier than that.

I'm trying to get to 155-160 before spring season. I am 141, back in november i was 121 with very little body fat. Putting on muscle has definitely
Ok player. So many good college players now at all levels Div 1, 2, 3 he would have to get a lot better to have a shot at doing well in futures this summer.
This was when he was 16, he is 19 or 20 and a ton bigger now.
 
Every good player is trying to get stronger and faster and many started with way more talent. All the best to him pursuing his dreams but good luck even becoming a top collegiate player.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
Every good player is trying to get stronger and faster and many started with way more talent. All the best to him pursuing his dreams but good luck even becoming a top collegiate player.
Oh he's playing futures for fun

He has a 3.85 in international business. All conference academic honor roll and conference mvp 2 years in a row(just finished sophomore year).
 
99% of all college players play futures for fun. Everyone loses money and only 1% have a chance to make it. Congrats on his GPA but most tennis players have great GPA's in strong majors.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
99% of all college players play futures for fun. Everyone loses money and only 1% have a chance to make it. Congrats on his GPA but most tennis players have great GPA's in strong majors.
"Most" players don't have great gpa's in strong majors....

I'm not knocking on tennis players, but college players at the d1 level are not doing tough majors. Most implies the majority, and I know that most tennis players at a d1 are taking easier majors like econ or business.

International business is a little tougher than business, but still not the toughest. 3.85 gpa, that is a really great gpa, most tennis players do not have 3.85 gpas.
 
You seem to have a lot of false information on majors and GPA's of tennis players. How much do you know about Division I tennis? Apparently not much but good luck in your posts and spreading false knowledge.
 
99% of all college players play futures for fun. Everyone loses money and only 1% have a chance to make it. Congrats on his GPA but most tennis players have great GPA's in strong majors.
I'll go out on a limb to say this is most likely true. If they select a strong major (i.e. STEM related major), they probably have the smarts to earn a good GPA.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
I'll go out on a limb to say this is most likely true. If they select a strong major (i.e. STEM related major), they probably have the smarts to earn a good GPA.
I dont know how many D1 players would be STEM majors, esp for ranked teams. All those labs would interfere with practice. I think the guys serious about STEM majors are probably playing D3 or Ivy. I have seen D1 rosters where all the players are business majors. Many of them do have high GPAs but they are choosing majors that fit in with their practice schedule. The tennis players we know that are thinking about premed want to play for Ivy's or highly academic D1 LACs. At Georgia Tech, where over 60% of students major in engineering and only 13% major in business, 6/10 of the tennis players major in business, and only 3 in engineering, choosing industrial engineering which is supposedly the easiest engineering major. I am sure the players who major in business are smart or they would not have gotten in Tech in the first place, but they chose a major they can manage and play 20+ hours of tennis a week. That is just one example, but I would imagine the rosters of most ranked teams (excluding ranked Ivys) include a lot of business, communication, exercise science, and sports management majors and not too many STEM majors.
 

Ihatetennis

Hall of Fame
You seem to have a lot of false information on majors and GPA's of tennis players. How much do you know about Division I tennis? Apparently not much but good luck in your posts and spreading false knowledge.
False information? Look at the a&m roster. They're almost all in "easy" majors

I know for a fact that there are players that may not be able to play cuz of grades sometimes during the semester. Some of them are people I know.
 
We are enjoying the discussion, and don't mean to interrupt.

However, we'd like to provide clarification on the posted comment
"lot of schools do not input fall invitational results into ITA or report them late so they are not input into UtR".

Results from all singles matches submitted to the ITA site for the 2015-16 season have been imported into the UTR system, unless submitted by the school within the past few days. We anticipate no issues with completeness of ITA results on the UTR system for this past season. Should you have any questions about our college tennis results collection efforts, please drop us a note at our contact form on the Universal Tennis website.

Thank you.

Team UTR
 

Tennis Sam

Rookie
Ihatetennis posted a link to a D3/ACC rank list in another thread. TRN and UTR look pretty similar to me in this listing. Maybe the small differences are accounted for by the number of matches used as jcgatennismom pointed out above, but it doesn't look like it makes much of a difference. The top players of both are all at the top. The bottom players of both are all at the bottom. UTR may undervalue the D3 players by a slightly, but not by much. If you sort by UTR in descending order, it looks about the same as the TRN sort.

It's pretty cool seeing how the D3 players fit in. Kind of interesting that the top 32 D3 players are better than the #1 player at Boston College, but maybe that's cause they don't give scholarships there either. Must be rough for them competing in a conference as strong as the ACC.
 

W4TA

New User
Just noticed an extremely large grouping of Southern California kids jump from 11 to 12 UTR rating. Is there some type of seasonal component (or a purging of older inactive players) that would account for this?
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
Is this documented anywhere, or is this just something that you have observed?
From UTR's own site: The UTR system is designed to help identify which match pairings would be predictably “competitive” and which match pairings would be predictably “noncompetitive”. It is not the purpose of the UTR system to predict winners and losers.W-L record is not the best indicator of a player’s level of play: In order to determine how good a player is, it is more meaningful to know how many games he/she won and lost against a given opponent than simply to know whether he/she won the match. Universal Tennis introduced the concept of the Competitive Threshold™. A player is described as having reached the Competitive Threshold™ in a match if he or she can win 1 game more than half the number of games needed to win the match. http://universaltennis.com/about.aspx#vision

UTR calculates a competitive range for a player, e.g. if a player is ranked 12, there is a greater than 50% chance that the player will have competitive matches with players ranked up to 1.0 below or 1.0 above him/her-e.g. 11-13. UTR even considers 6-3, 6-4 a competitive match; players don't have to win a set to be considered competitive.

Based upon the above, I assume UTR's algorithm considers 3rd set winners and losers about the same, if not the same.

I posted a similar response on another thread with a little more detail and examples. I have observed plenty of junior players who have lost close 3 sets ranked higher on UTR than junior players with a much high % of wins but maybe they had 1-2 non close losses against players in the same range. I have seen guys that are ranked 50 spots lower than on TRN (the junior tennis database based on H2H wins over 12 months), e.g. a 125 vs a 75, yet the TRN 125 may be .4 higher on UTR because he lost as lot of close matches vs players with UTRs .5-1.0 higher.
 

Tennis Sam

Rookie
It is not the purpose of the UTR system to predict winners and losers.
Kind of an odd position. Isn't that the hallmark of a good rating? They are pushing to have these ratings used for seeding and selection into tournaments.

Based upon the above, I assume UTR's algorithm considers 3rd set winners and losers about the same, if not the same.
That's a reasonable conclusion, but I would still be a little shocked if the third set wins don't count for anything.

The point systems are definitely not as accurate, but at least you can understand them. I wish all these organizations out there that rank or rate players would publish their methodologies in a lot more detail.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
Kind of an odd position. Isn't that the hallmark of a good rating? They are pushing to have these ratings used for seeding and selection into tournaments.
I think UTR is OK for selection but a system based on H2H wins would be better for seeding. I wish UTR ratings were used to set a minimum for national junior tournaments (some 2 stars from weak sections get in on quotas), US Open National Playoffs, etc. There is no reason why the 1S of a division 1 team ranked 14+ should have to play 1-2 rounds of UTR 8 1 star juniors in the sectional national playoffs. I think the methodology behind TRN is better as it is based on wins only; when it has been used to predict results of major tournaments, it was a slighter better predictor of results than UTR. However, only UTR has the database of results of junior, college, pro, ITF, etc tournament results. UTR would be great with a few tweaks:

1)weigh 3 set wins slightly more than 3 set losses and considerably more than 3,4 losses. Right now a person who wins 7 games is competitive with the winner but I don't think they should be ranked the same. It is OK to count games won and weigh more games won, but weight wins more.

2) Include unfinished ITA matches that go to 3 sets, e.g. if a lower ranked player goes to 3 sets with a higher ranked player, he should get some credit. Right now losers of 3 sets get the same or almost the same value as the winner. However college players who do not finish the 3rd set get no credit to their rating.

3) If the system is only going to include the last 30 matches, keep the top wins in the last 6 months. Keep the losses in the 30 count to be fair. For example, if a player has a 20-10 record, keep the top 20 wins in the last 6 months but the last 10 losses even if the player played 30 matches in 3 months. In recent summer tournaments, some players may have played close to 20 matches between two tournaments if they played a lot of backdraw matches-they could possibly go through their 30 count in 6 weeks or less. Summer tourneys are often large draw tournaments with a wide range of UTRs so the wins in the early rounds can replace higher UTR wins from smaller draw tourneys just a few months before. Men's opens and the national sectional playoffs include some players with lower UTR ratings than college players and high ranked juniors. Either there should be a minimum UTR for the tourneys or UTR should keep the highest wins in a 6 month period. Sometimes D1 teams schedule matches against weak teams. Players could have high UTR wins from fall invitationals/futures replaced by those low UTR wins. Wins can hurt a player's UTR since there is a finite count of matches. For time based systems, e.g. 6 month or 12 rolling months, wins don't hurt as all wins would be included. I wish UTR would use 30 matches if a player had not played 30 matches in 6 months,or 6 months results if a player has played more than 30 matches in less than 6 months. There are guys who have stopped playing that have high UTR rankings as UTR will go back 12 months and set a rating with a minimum of 8 matches. Actually the current UTR system would encourage players with a current high rating to stop playing if they were up for selection for a big tournament based on UTR rating. Again not because they were afraid of losing, but because if they won in a weak draw, they would drop and possibly miss out on selection.

4) Put the teams in the right conferences! There are D1 teams that moved out of conferences 2 years ago still in the wrong conference on UTR. Would only take an hour or two to fix.

On another note, UTR has written in blogs about tournament directors seeding more than a quarter of the draw so only first rounds would be blow outs, and then the remaining matches would be more competitive. Makes a lot of sense. I hope UTR is tweaked and is used more for tournament selection for juniors, adults, etc so players do not have to travel so much to play competitive tournaments.
 
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