UTR to USTA conversion 2020

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
So now that UTR is incorporating more data than in 2017/2018 by having more people using the system, what are people seeing for men’s and women’s adult ratings correlations?

I am seeing men’s 3.5 to 4.0 start about 5, and men’s 4.0 to 4.5 start about 6.

For women’s I am seeing 3.5 to 4.0 start around 4, and 4.0 to 4.5 start around 5.

However, I have less personal experience with adult women’s ratings.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Not exactly what I am seeing.
Sometime about the time leagues started back up here (June 1) after 2-3 match results went in our entire region took a nosedive adjustment one weekend.

Men's 3.5 almost universally 4s (used to be 5s and 6s)
Women's 3.5 are all 3s and 2s (had been 3s and some 4s)
Women's 4.0 50/50 3s and 4s (had been mostly 4s some 5s)
Men's 4.0 Mostly 5s, some 6s (had been mostly 6s some 7s)

These are doubles ratings .... which I think UTR is struggling with. In fact mine has still not changed, not even .01 in adding 17 matches from June 1st
But when I cross check players I know at each rating/gender and then look at who they played in singles, really not much difference for those who play significantly in both dubs and singles.

There is no doubt UTR is cramming all the adults into a tiny band.

Maybe they are doing this simply to be able to force mixed doubles into their formula as a 3.0/4.0 pair would have prior a greater than 2.0 UTR difference.
 

WhiteOut

Semi-Pro
So now that UTR is incorporating more data than in 2017/2018 by having more people using the system, what are people seeing for men’s and women’s adult ratings correlations?

I am seeing men’s 3.5 to 4.0 start about 5, and men’s 4.0 to 4.5 start about 6.

For women’s I am seeing 3.5 to 4.0 start around 4, and 4.0 to 4.5 start around 5.

However, I have less personal experience with adult women’s ratings.
I'm a mid-hi NTRP 3.5 male (regularly play 3.5 and 4.0 matches). Pre covid my singles UTR hovered somewhere around 3.7x (dubs UTR is just over 4.0)

i just played my first singles match last week since covid began, and won 3-4. My UTR went to 3.5x
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
I'm a mid-hi NTRP 3.5 male (regularly play 3.5 and 4.0 matches). Pre covid my singles UTR hovered somewhere around 3.7x (dubs UTR is just over 4.0)

i just played my first singles match last week since covid began, and won 3-4. My UTR went to 3.5x
Interesting. I am not sure that UTR ratings are anymore reproducible than USTA ratings. If adult men’s 4.0 ranges from UTR 3.5 to 6.0 depending on geographic area, that is not a very helpful system.
 

QuadCam

Professional
Both systems are flawed since there isn't a human (eye test) element to the ratings. They both rely on the game score differential to determine how it'll affect your rating. . Firstly, this means that you are supposed to go out and try to pummel your opponent. I hate that idea! If you only win a close one (on paper) becuae you didn't want to demoralize your buddy on the other side of the net, the ratings systems think both players are the same ability. Secondly, it makes no sense in doubles. There are too many dynamics going to know how each player faired on that court.

Bring back the human rating clinics.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Looks like TLS is publishing a UTR conversion now. Just from looking at guys I know:

High 3.5 male (TLS 3.4) converts to 5.0

Mid 4.0 male (TLS 3.75) converts to a 5.8

High 4.0 male (TLS 3.9) converts to a 6.5

Low 4.5 male (TLS 4.1) converts to 6.8
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
There is no doubt UTR is cramming all the adults into a tiny band.

Maybe they are doing this simply to be able to force mixed doubles into their formula as a 3.0/4.0 pair would have prior a greater than 2.0 UTR difference.
It is hard for me to see how UTR could create a mixed doubles program, at least not anything like what we are used to with USTA. There just aren’t going to be enough male/female pairings among the adult league crowd with both players having a similar UTR. For instance, there will be an oversupply of high 4.0 males and not enough females with a equivalent UTR to match them with. You would have to have significant high school or college female participation to do that.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
It is hard for me to see how UTR could create a mixed doubles program, at least not anything like what we are used to with USTA. There just aren’t going to be enough male/female pairings among the adult league crowd with both players having a similar UTR. For instance, there will be an oversupply of high 4.0 males and not enough females with a equivalent UTR to match them with. You would have to have significant high school or college female participation to do that.
I agree ... HOWEVER they are now including USTA mixed league and tournament matches and putting them into verified ratings. So you have 7.0 with 4.0M/3.0F pairings and 8.0 with 4.5M/3.5F pairings ... those should never be within 2 UTR points of each other, but it seems the system is forcing it.

So, I think that is why the band is narrowing.

Honestly have thought for a long time and continue to believe that UTR is next to useless for adult league players.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
...they are now including USTA mixed league and tournament matches and putting them into verified ratings. So you have 7.0 with 4.0M/3.0F pairings and 8.0 with 4.5M/3.5F pairings ...
That is going to kill USTA mixed as we know it. For instance, it will be impossible for high 4.0 males to maintain their UTR with mixed matches on their record.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Both systems are flawed since there isn't a human (eye test) element to the ratings. They both rely on the game score differential to determine how it'll affect your rating. . Firstly, this means that you are supposed to go out and try to pummel your opponent. I hate that idea! If you only win a close one (on paper) becuae you didn't want to demoralize your buddy on the other side of the net, the ratings systems think both players are the same ability. Secondly, it makes no sense in doubles. There are too many dynamics going to know how each player faired on that court.

Bring back the human rating clinics.
Are ATP and WTA players seeded by human rating or by their results in matches?
 
Doesn’t seem like UTR is regularly updating. I have had many matches this summer, and it took them over a month to change my rating and it happened only once. I’ve played since that adjustment and my rating just sits there. My normal double partner’s rating has been stuck all summer and he’s played 3-4 matches
 

QuadCam

Professional
Are ATP and WTA players seeded by human rating or by their results in matches?

as you likely already know, they are seeded by a rolling annual points system that are earned by round wins at tournaments. Their points from tournament round victories are the same value whether it comes from a 6-0,6-0 slaughter or a 7-6,6-7,7-6 squeaker.

The UTR rating of the #1 pro to the #100 pro differ by 1.2 UTR points (16.12 for Djoker to 14.92 for Stefano Travaglia.) At that level UTR doesn't really show much of a difference in players.

And at some Grand Slams, player rankings have been by the eye test. They are trying to get away from it, but the Slams have the ability to seed players differently from their ATP ranking due to court surface specific play (grass, clay, etc)

In the late 90s, USTA was still using rating clinics where players had to perform in from of raters to get a baseline rating. I think it helped with the sandbagging problem that really comes to light at sectional tournaments.
 

Vox Rationis

Semi-Pro
And at some Grand Slams, player rankings have been by the eye test. They are trying to get away from it, but the Slams have the ability to seed players differently from their ATP ranking due to court surface specific play (grass, clay, etc)
That's not the eye test. Wimbledon gives some weight to the previous years grass court results because grass courts are so few. But it is still results based. No human element involved. https://www.essentiallysports.com/how-does-the-wimbledon-seeding-system-work/amp/

Why would someone's judgment of a person's rating be more accurate than that person's results?
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
That is going to kill USTA mixed as we know it. For instance, it will be impossible for high 4.0 males to maintain their UTR with mixed matches on their record.
How is this going to kill USTA mixed? Over the age of perhaps 30 does any adult who plays mixed care about their UTR aside from bemusement?

If someone enjoys playing mixed, how would this change anything? Would they stop playing because they don't want their UTR to drop? That would be silly.

My area has zero UTR tournaments that are open to adults. Zero. Not One. So UTR is of absolutely no value.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Doesn’t seem like UTR is regularly updating. I have had many matches this summer, and it took them over a month to change my rating and it happened only once. I’ve played since that adjustment and my rating just sits there. My normal double partner’s rating has been stuck all summer and he’s played 3-4 matches
Yup. No change and over 20 matches in the system. Not even .01

I emailed them about it and in response was told that some people are very consistent. Yeah. Not that consistent!
 

QuadCam

Professional
Both utr and usta use margin of victory in their calculations. I think it would be better suited to go by wins and losses. Sometimes a close win can bring your rating down.

As we all know, you don't always play your best every time you go on the court. Sometimes, you have to struggle to win over a "lesser" player.

When I was trying to get back to bring a 4.5, i had to really focus on going out and dominating opponents. It wasn't fun... For me or the opponent. For example, I'm already up a break and could easily cruise to a 6-3 or 6-4 set.... But I knew that for a better rating, i really needed to get another break to make for a more "impressive" set score. That's BS! It shouldn't be like that. I can still win. I shouldn't have to punish my friend on the other side all in the sake of improving my rating.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
For example, I'm already up a break and could easily cruise to a 6-3 or 6-4 set.... But I knew that for a better rating, i really needed to get another break to make for a more "impressive" set score. That's BS! It shouldn't be like that. I can still win. I shouldn't have to punish my friend on the other side all in the sake of improving my rating.

 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
How is this going to kill USTA mixed? Over the age of perhaps 30 does any adult who plays mixed care about their UTR aside from bemusement?

If someone enjoys playing mixed, how would this change anything? Would they stop playing because they don't want their UTR to drop? That would be silly.

My area has zero UTR tournaments that are open to adults. Zero. Not One. So UTR is of absolutely no value.
With USTA reducing the singles component of leagues, it is moving toward becoming a doubles only league. Almost all of the opportunities for singles league play and tournament play are UTR, in my area. There is a co-ed UTR singles tournament open to adults at least twice a month, and abundant singles leagues. If you like all aspects of tennis (like I do), in the scenario described above, playing USTA mixed will lower your UTR so that you would potentially not qualify for the group you need to be in for singles play.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
With USTA reducing the singles component of leagues, it is moving toward becoming a doubles only league. Almost all of the opportunities for singles league play and tournament play are UTR, in my area. There is a co-ed UTR singles tournament open to adults at least twice a month, and abundant singles leagues. If you like all aspects of tennis (like I do), in the scenario described above, playing USTA mixed will lower your UTR so that you would potentially not qualify for the group you need to be in for singles play.
That sounds like great fun and something that if available I would enjoy playing in. So yes, if that existed in my area I would actually care about my UTR.

BUT .... for a singles UTR tournament wouldn't they look only at a player's singles UTR and not look at their doubles UTR? So why would playing mixed matter?
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
That sounds like great fun and something that if available I would enjoy playing in. So yes, if that existed in my area I would actually care about my UTR.

BUT .... for a singles UTR tournament wouldn't they look only at a player's singles UTR and not look at their doubles UTR? So why would playing mixed matter?
You are correct, they don't overlap when tournaments are "seeded" unless the tourney manager goes rogue, which is not likely to happen.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
That sounds like great fun and something that if available I would enjoy playing in. So yes, if that existed in my area I would actually care about my UTR.

BUT .... for a singles UTR tournament wouldn't they look only at a player's singles UTR and not look at their doubles UTR? So why would playing mixed matter?
Actually, you are correct. I always forget that UTR issues separate ratings for doubles and singles. So that wouldn’t be an issue.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
as you likely already know, they are seeded by a rolling annual points system that are earned by round wins at tournaments. Their points from tournament round victories are the same value whether it comes from a 6-0,6-0 slaughter or a 7-6,6-7,7-6 squeaker.

The UTR rating of the #1 pro to the #100 pro differ by 1.2 UTR points (16.12 for Djoker to 14.92 for Stefano Travaglia.) At that level UTR doesn't really show much of a difference in players.

And at some Grand Slams, player rankings have been by the eye test. They are trying to get away from it, but the Slams have the ability to seed players differently from their ATP ranking due to court surface specific play (grass, clay, etc)

In the late 90s, USTA was still using rating clinics where players had to perform in from of raters to get a baseline rating. I think it helped with the sandbagging problem that really comes to light at sectional tournaments.
Labor intensive activities like rating are on the way out.

Eventually, AI will be used with videos to determine NTRP, but even then algorithms like UTR and USTA which rely on actual results are the best.

The only Slam which doesn't follow tour seeding is Wimbledon and they do that by giving more weight to results on grass. They don't have people watching and rating a pro.
 
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