UTR what’s yours?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by TwistAndShout, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. TwistAndShout

    TwistAndShout New User

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    So junior tennis is more about UTR these days than USTA ranking. My son wants to know what UTR I was in high school... in 1989 lol!

    He’s 13 and a 7.1. Thats decent since he still weighs 105 lbs but the really good kids in the 14s are 10+ UTR. (Rafa is like 16.4)

    I know I was 4.0 league in like 2000.

    Is there much cross classification data now that we have UTR tournaments? I’m thinking I would have been an 8 ish UTR as a full grown college senior playing 4.0...thoughts? Thinking 3.5 equates to 5-6 UTR; 4.0 equates to 7-8???
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  2. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

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    I think @nytennisaddict did some research into that.
     
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  3. Postpre

    Postpre Rookie

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    No way 3.5's are anywhere close to a 6 UTR. 4.0's, on the other hand, are about 5-7 UTR.
     
    #3
  4. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    How do you get a UTR ranking?
     
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  5. TwistAndShout

    TwistAndShout New User

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    https://myutr.com/

    You should have one if you play in USTA matches
     
    #5
  6. OnTheLine

    OnTheLine Hall of Fame

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    As a 3.5 woman, my UTR is now a 3. They seemed to have just done a major upload of league match data that at least goes through December 1st.

    Most 3.5s are either a 2 or a 3 that I know around here ... at 4.0 women, you start seeing the occassional 4.
     
    #6
  7. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    I'm a 10. In UTR and looks. ;)
     
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  8. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    Found this conversion chart. Looks legit.
    [​IMG]
    I would be an 8-9
     
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  9. TwistAndShout

    TwistAndShout New User

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    Thanks for posting this :) but I do find it very hard to believe. I do not have verified data or samples but I cannot see a 3.5 man being a 7-8 UTR. I’m a former 4.0 in league play although I have not been in a league for many years I rally with a 7 utr junior all the time and I can’t see it. I figured there would be plenty of 3.5 and 4.0 folks on this forum who could look up their UTR and give real data
     
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  10. navigator

    navigator Hall of Fame

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    Discussion of issues with UTR:
    https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/observations-on-universal-tennis-ratings.604627/

    I'm a 4.5T and my UTR bounced from 10.8 down to 8 or so and then up a bit then... don't know what it is now - my UTR fell out of "official" status - and I stopped paying for the service. There's not really a legitimate conversion.

    It's interesting that there was a poster who worked for UTR who used to come join the threads that mentioned UTR last year. Then when folks started pointing out all of the widespread anomalies and issues s/he kind of disappeared.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
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  11. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    From playing opponents with both a UTR and USTA rating, this is my best attempt:

    2.0 = 1
    2.5 = 2
    3.0 = 3
    3.5 = 4-5
    4.0 = 6-7
    4.5 = 8-9
    5.0 = 10-11
    5.5 = 12-13
    6.0 = 14
    6.5 = 15
    7.0 = 16

    But there are some inconsistencies. I've seen a USTA 5.0 with an 8 UTR and a USTA 4.5 with a 10 UTR. Though the 5.0 was a 40+ player and the 4.5 was a sandbagger.
     
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  12. OnTheLine

    OnTheLine Hall of Fame

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    And I think the conversion gets really bizarre for women.
    You will see many 3.0 women, even those that play singles and win at sectionals with a UTR of 1. Well, what the heck does that even mean?
     
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  13. Postpre

    Postpre Rookie

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    This chart is preposterous. It's laughable to think a 3.5 male is tantamount to a 7-8 UTR.
     
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  14. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    Okay. Complain to the guy that made it.
     
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  15. Coolio

    Coolio Professional

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  16. MarinaHighTennis

    MarinaHighTennis Professional

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    Strange I have a 20-4 record in 4.5 & 2-1 in 5.0 but I'm a 6.54
     
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  17. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    Is UTR the more popular rating system in California?
     
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  18. MathGeek

    MathGeek Hall of Fame

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    dropping fast
     
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  19. TwistAndShout

    TwistAndShout New User

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    If you pay for the service you can see the history of the players you played and their respective UTR ratings. You might have a projected rating or you might have a lot of matches with people that have a projected rating. You might need 20 or 30 scores logged in official tournaments to get truly rated. My son beat another player last weekend 6-0, 6-0 but it did not even count toward his UTR because the guy did not have any other matches... that guy has randomly been rated 4.8 with his only match being against my 7.09 rated son. Two or three months ago my son played a girl three years older than him that had of 6.2 rating and he thought he was going to sweep the floor with her but she beat him quite handily. It turns out that she just had a projected rating. Projected ratings have a great deal more volatility and less reliability
     
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  20. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    The tencap system is intriguing. it offers a handicap guide if players of diff. levels compete.
     
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  21. rogerroger917

    rogerroger917 Hall of Fame

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    Adults utr is not equitable to juniors utr. Not the same head to head. Not enough of them.

    And no a 3.5 ntrp adult singles player would not even get games off a 7 utr boy. That's funny.
     
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  22. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

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    I thought the selling point of UTR was that it was universal: across gender, country, and age.
     
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  23. rogerroger917

    rogerroger917 Hall of Fame

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    Supposed to be. But it doesn't work like that because there is no real head to head between juniors and adults. Between junior boys and girls it's better.

    I have played tons of adult 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 players. And numerous junior kids. Utr 6 thru 12. (My son is 12) I help my son train everyday. Utr does not work across adults and juniors.

    I actually find the tennis recruiting TRN head to head system to be a better at predicting junior matchups. Their expected win percentage system is really on point. They are more selective in the matches used in the junior records. Utr uses all matches within 12 months.
     
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  24. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    I'm a 7.60 UTR and 4.5 USTA, my son is a 9.38 UTR, we are pretty even right now in singles, but not for long.
     
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  25. MarinaHighTennis

    MarinaHighTennis Professional

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    all the juniors are talking about it haha. Every time im coaching, they always ask me: what's your UTR, then they search me up and say I have a low rating and worse than them haha
     
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  26. MarinaHighTennis

    MarinaHighTennis Professional

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    that makes UTR a bad system no? hahaha
     
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  27. TwistAndShout

    TwistAndShout New User

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    Its really good between rated players of the same class. Cross-classification, e.g. boys v girls, men v. women, juniors v. adults, is more accurate when there is more data, i.e. more cross-play. You only get that in UTR tournaments as far as I know. It requires participation from players to be accurate. There are definitely 'sleepers' out there in juniors especially the ones that play high school but are not tournament players.

    UTR tournaments are much better IMO than USTA since you pit players of equal ability against each other. If my 7.06 son plays in a UTR tourney he might play a 6.9 14 yr old girl, a 7.3 17 yr old kid and a 7.5 12 yr old boy, but if he plays USTA 14 yr old boys category, he might win Main Draw 6-0, 6-1 against a 4 UTR and next round lose 6-1, 6-1 against a 9.5 UTR. Then he goes to the consolation division and might beat a 5.0 then lose to an 8.4. None of these matches might be competitive.
     
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  28. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Here's my new rating system:

    low C: beginners just starting, or players that rarely play who have invested little effort to improving
    mid C: intermediate beginners, beginning to use stroke patterns
    hi C: advanced beginners, some stroke patterns OK but slow or very inconsistent
    low B: low intermediates, adding more consistency
    mid B: intermediate intermediates - this player has actual stroke patterns that look correct on a few of the strokes but has significant weaknesses on others
    hi B: advanced intermediates - pretty solid tennis, starting to see real strengths in good FHs, serves, etc... but still holes in some strokes
    low A: low advanced - solid tennis but relative weaknesses
    mid A: intermediate advance - very solid tennis and weapons emerging in the form of aggressive shots or above average consistency
    hi A: advanced advance - good tennis players, top of the rec levels. all around game with aggressive shots
    AA: recent very good college or challenger players who no longer compete
    Pro: wta, atp, challengers, qualifiers - people trying to make $ competing.

    USTA has too few levels. ALTA in Atlanta has too many levels. My scale has a total of 10 rec levels and that should do it.
     
    #28
  29. CosmosMpower

    CosmosMpower Hall of Fame

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    UTR 5, USTA 3.5C but I win a lot in USTA 3.5C, could hang with lower 4.0's.
     
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  30. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    usta 4.5 (mid if you believe tr and tls)...
    utr (singles): 7.31 projected (based on 4 singles matches)...
    utr seems accurate to me... doesn't line up with NTRP (which is a mix of singles/doubles)...
     
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  31. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    agreed that no 3.5 adult will be competitive with a 7 utr.... (maybe opposite handed?)
    big difference IMO is that junior UTRs are based on 3 set matches.
    adults are 3rd set tb.
     
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  32. CJ Tennis

    CJ Tennis Rookie

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    Content not available.
     
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  33. TwistAndShout

    TwistAndShout New User

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    A lot of Jr matches are best 2 of 3 sets but technically the third set is a 10 point tiebreaker. Higher rated tournaments are legitimate 2 of 3 sets. Consolation matches are sometimes 8-game pro set. Also there are also 4 game no ad sets emerging.
     
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  34. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    This is much more accurate than the chart, in my experience.

    I am a strong 4.0 or a weak 4.5 in USTA. My UTR is projected to be 7. That seems accurate because I've beaten two guys who are confirmed 7's in competitive matches.

    The guys who beat me are all ranked as 8s and are solid/strong 4.5s.
     
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  35. Bender

    Bender G.O.A.T.

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    For sure I gonna be a 15+ for looks, no?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  36. CJ Tennis

    CJ Tennis Rookie

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    Content not available.
     
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  37. barringer97

    barringer97 Semi-Pro

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    Males:
    UTR 8.0-9.4 = 4.5 NTRP
    UTR 9.5-10.9 = 5.0 NTRP
    UTR 11 above = 5.5+ Opens
    Females:
    UTR 6.6-7.4 = 4.5 NTRP
    UTR 7.5-8.9 = 5.0 NTRP
    UTR 9 above = 5.5+ Opens
     
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  38. barringer97

    barringer97 Semi-Pro

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    It's based on everything, 8 game pro-sets and shortened 6 game pro sets. Every Game counts.
     
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  39. OnTheLine

    OnTheLine Hall of Fame

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    I don't understand UTR at all for women ... they just added all of January/Feb matches ... where I am currently 11-2 YTD playing both at level (3.5) and up at 4.0.. My wins are by decent margins, sets wins at mainly 2s and 3s with a few bagels. Losses are all 3rd sets. 1 loss at 3.5 and 1 loss (3 wins) at 4.0.
    My UTR DROPPED from a 3 to a 2.

    AND, a female friend of mine that just bumped up from 2.5 to 3.0NTRP has a UTR of 4 on a total of 12 matches in past rolling 12 months (mine is over 70 matches!) playing a mix of 2.5 and 3.0 league.

    So, I should just join a UTR tournament and play at the 2 level and prove that their system sucks for adult women. But that would mean traveling 300+ miles.
     
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  40. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    you have to think about the *quality* of your wins and losses... not just about W/L
    I can go 0-10 in season, and have my UTR go UP depending on how good my opponents are, and how close the scores were.
    imagine if you played 3 matches in an open league, and you lost 6,6; 6,6; 6,6... but your losses were to fed, nadal, djoker... your utr for sure would be 16+ despite "never winning a match".
    similarly if was "undefeated" to beginners... but lost by the same score (6,6).. my utr would drop dramatically
    it's cool, i too thought my UTR # would be higher (so i'm not as good as i thought i was) :p
     
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  41. OnTheLine

    OnTheLine Hall of Fame

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    I do get that ... know how to do math ... part of why I think UTR is useless for league players.

    I am according to TR a 3.68 today. but a 3.5C ..
    My wins at 3.5 are all line 1 Singles and dubs, wins at 0s, 1s. 2s and one 3. One loss against someone with a higher TR in 3rd set breaker, although I won more overall games (6-1; 6-7; 0-1) ... in each case in the dubs matches, partners that were much lower TR #s than mine (3.02 - 3.06), and one a 3.0 playing up with a TR of 2.48

    and wins at 4.0:
    A. 6-2; 6-3 against a 3.76 (dubs, avg rating)
    B. 6-3; 6-4 against a 3.68 (dubs, avg rating)
    C. 7-5; 6-2 against a 3.67 (dubs, avg rating)
    Loss at 4.0 4-6; 3-6 aganst a 3.92

    (these are doubles, in each case with exact same partner with a TR of 3.58 just bumped up from 3.5)

    My TR, and likely my NTRP is going up and my UTR is going down? Yeah, makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

    At UTR 2 .. I would be up against NTRPs of 2.5 and low 3.0 .... would be a boring as heck match for everyone involved.
     
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  42. TwistAndShout

    TwistAndShout New User

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    Are you guys just viewing your own UTR rating for free? You need to purchase (at least for one month) the full subscription. Then you can see the UTRs of the people you are playing. If the tennis ball logo next to their name is green, then they are rated. If its orange, they are projected. If there is a checkmark next to their name, they are being counted in your rating. If there is no checkmark, they are not counted. Is your status, "rated" or "projected." You can actually be rated even if you play a lot of projected rated players. If you have 30 scores in and most of your counted scores are against rated players, then your rating should be accurate.

    Also, you might go down if you roll out a good win from your top 30. Maybe you are a 6.01 and you got that rating because you beat a 6.8. But that was 29 matches ago, and now you just beat a 5.1 rated player 6-4, 6-4. You look at your rating and loe and behold you went down after the win to a 5.97. Its because you rolled out the good win from the calculation.

    Garbage in, garbage out; UTR is only as accurate as the data and sample size.
     
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  43. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    i see what you're saying.
     
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  44. OnTheLine

    OnTheLine Hall of Fame

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    And the matches that fell off were all losses (some of them ugly ugly) from last January/February.

    Yeah, UTR just doesn't make sense on their women's ratings at least for adult league playing women.
     
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  45. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    probably isn't a men's vs. women's thing...
    my guess is that the lower your are down the skill tree, the less likely you'll have played someone with a "confirmed" utr rating (withing a few degrees of separation)
    by utr 7-8, you're probably in the sphere of competitive juniors, who, somewhere in the country might have played the equiv of an NTRP 4.0 in a UTR tourney...
    but somewhere below that the "formula" is just guestimating.
    my $0.02.
     
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  46. OnTheLine

    OnTheLine Hall of Fame

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    Nope, I like the free spending of $0.02 though ... with the exception of one match, every single of my matches is against others with Rated not Projected numbers.
    I think it is an adult women problem. They have to slot us down low enough so there is room for adult men in the 5-8 range. If you are an adult male 4.0 with a UTR of 6-7 you are going to wipe out an adult female 4.0 (or should, I am not delusional in the battle of the sexes thing) so you need to put her down a few notches, say at least 3-4 or so ... now you have left only 3 levels for all the rest of the women (at best) so your 2.5, 3.0 and 3.5s are all somewhere lower than 4 making entire rating groups a disaster.

    How can level 2 have 2.5, 3.0, 3.5s and a few 4.0s that I know all in the same rating group at 2? Would that be a fun tournament for anyone?
     
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  47. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

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    Sandbagger! ;)
     
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  48. OnTheLine

    OnTheLine Hall of Fame

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    Yup that is me ... is it time to add a profile statement: "3.5 Sandbagger in Residence" ?
     
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  49. TwistAndShout

    TwistAndShout New User

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    #49
  50. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    fyi, for a short period, UTR gives exact ratings (seems like a try-it-before-you-buy-it thing)...
    I'm 7.37UTR (singles), based on the matches they gleaned from my (USTA record in the 4.5 leagues i play)
    based on what I've seen, I'd completely ignore the conversion chart (https://blog.tennis360hub.com/post/109642704797/how-to-find-competitive-matches-between-ntrp-and), ESPECIALLY if your NTRP is even partially doubles based..
    NTRP is not a skill rating... it's a grouping mechanic the USTA uses to provide a somewhat normalized distribution of playing levels (with 3.5 making up the bulk of the "bulge" of the distribution curve)

    pretty cool UTR "heat map"
    https://myutr.com/media/UTR_Player_Range.pdf (where are all the McEnroe critics (regarding Serena being 700 on ATP... according to the chart, Serena would struggle to even qualify for futures events on the ATP tour))
    some interesting observations:
    * 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5... all have a decent overlap with their neighboring levels
    * 4.5 & 5.0, big gap... like there is a level missing... or more likely because they just bucket all "good players" under 5.0 (for the distribution curve thing)... so while it's possibly to be between 4.0/4.5... it's unlikely you're a 4.5/5.0 player... (ie. it's likely you're just a good 4.5, but nowhere near 5.0))
    * if you're, a 4.5 guy, you're about as good as nationally ranked 12y girl (who's probably literally a third of your size)... suck it up and deal with it
    * if you're a 4.0 guy,... you're not even as good as a nationally ranked 12y girl...
    * d3 women? title ix programs i'm guessing...
    * 2.5, 3.0, 3.5... women, yeah, that's like the same level... but since there are so many, needed to separate them
    * 5.5 men... IME, they were all ex-d1...so likely just a "half life decay" issue with the UTR calc... (ie. which weights recent matches more heavily.... and many 5.5's just teach now)

    discuss!
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
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