Vaidisovas high elbow in her serve

sientelo

New User
Vaidisova has a really high elbow in her serve - if you watch it here in slow motion at 25% speed its easy to see

http://youtu.be/coX9CqO0EJk?t=3m6s

Her hitting elbow only just drops below her shoulder. Is this really so bad? Her serve is one of her best shots and she's been in the worlds top 10.

I've been struggling to get my hitting elbow low (well failing more precisely) with my own serve - I'm thinking maybe its not as big a problem as I thought. I don't know
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Not too bad because she does drop it down to the proper trophy position prior to her racket head drop. If your elbow is too high for your trophy, it can put undue stress on your shoulder. It might not hurt now, but if you do this for a decade or so, it can result in rotator cuff issues.

.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
At trophy position, when it counts, her right elbow is actually well below the line of her shoulders, and some would say it's a LOW elbow position at trophy.
 

jussumman

Hall of Fame
High elbow is key to a good serve, says ex coach of Roger Federer, Wawrinka, Dimitrov!!

I can't stand reading here how high elbow is a bad thing. LeeD you say that at trophy position when it counts the elbow is well below line of shoulders, well maybe during that phase. Generally a high elbow is key to a successful serve. Don't listen to me. This guy who coached Federer and a bunch of other slam winners, all time greats, knows.

I recorded this clip from Tennis Channel. What do you have to say to this video LeeD?
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
^^^it's not low, at her fully loaded position her upper arm is at 90 degrees to her side, which is pretty much perfect - it looks lower due to her shoulder tilt, but biomechanically speaking her load position is pretty spot on (at least her racquet arm anyway)
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
jussumman - Peter is basically showing what I just described, but it is not what I would class a high elbow - he demo's it at pretty much 90 to the shoulder. Higher than that and your looking at weak throwing action or possibly impingement injury.
 

WildVolley

Legend
High elbow is key to a good serve, says ex coach of Roger Federer, Wawrinka, Dimitrov!!

I can't stand reading here how high elbow is a bad thing. LeeD you say that at trophy position when it counts the elbow is well below line of shoulders, well maybe during that phase. Generally a high elbow is key to a successful serve. Don't listen to me. This guy who coached Federer and a bunch of other slam winners, all time greats, knows.

I don't think you've been paying attention if you think the elbow position showed by that coach is what people here call a high elbow. Don't know what LeeD has advocated, but his rotator cuff injuries may be leading him astray.

Most of us argue for keeping the elbow in line with the shoulders at the trophy position.

The OP throws both arms up above his shoulder line at the start of his serve. I believe that causes him to level off his shoulders too early in the swing and that he wasn't pulling the elbow down and in line before the forward swing.

I'm personally not a fan of the high elbow start - I don't see quarterbacks or pitchers doing that. It works for Wawrinki, but my preference is to see the elbow go no higher than Raonic's, which is slightly above the line of his shoulders when taking back the racket.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Don't know how I got involved in this....
I advocate right elbow in line with shoulders, and a bit of shoulder tilt.
Vaidisova has slight lower elbow position, but so slight it might not be representative of all serves.
And who said I was correct? I advocate. I'm not saying an aligned elbow with both shoulders is correct.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
You got involved when you said...

At trophy position, when it counts, her right elbow is actually well below the line of her shoulders, and some would say it's a LOW elbow position at trophy.

Which isn't true - her shoulder line is bang on 90, as you would want, but her shoulder over shoulder rotation sets her upper body angle.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
My, aren't we picky?
I said aligned was best.
Her actual elbow is below her right shoulder.
Someone got something up his butt today?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
True... she starts out with high elbow.
True... she lowers her elbow as she starts the trophy position to a good position. While level with a line draw between her shoulder's, her elbow is actually LOWER than her hitting shoulder at trophy position.
You got a hair up you butt.
 

Coolio

Professional
LeeD getting the last word in on the issue just to make sure he has won the argument. Congrats! :)
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Winning or losing makes no difference to me.
When someone says I"m wrong, and proceeds to give evidence I"m correct, THAT makes a difference.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
^^^ The trick is to change your point about halfway through the debate and pretend that's what you meant all along or that you didn't actually say the other stuff in the first place. Of all LeeD's numerous embellished sporting achievements, this is the skill he has perfected to the highest degree :)
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
What are you talking about?
I said her elbow drops from too high to close to correct. Warwrinka uses a higher elbow at his trophy position. So, to Stan, her elbow is LOW.
Other players with really LOW elbow positions on trophy, maybe Isner?, would say it's too HIGH.
 

jussumman

Hall of Fame
I don't think you've been paying attention if you think the elbow position showed by that coach is what people here call a high elbow. Don't know what LeeD has advocated, but his rotator cuff injuries may be leading him astray.

Most of us argue for keeping the elbow in line with the shoulders at the trophy position.

The OP throws both arms up above his shoulder line at the start of his serve. I believe that causes him to level off his shoulders too early in the swing and that he wasn't pulling the elbow down and in line before the forward swing.

I'm personally not a fan of the high elbow start - I don't see quarterbacks or pitchers doing that. It works for Wawrinki, but my preference is to see the elbow go no higher than Raonic's, which is slightly above the line of his shoulders when taking back the racket.

Keeping the elbow in line with the shoulders at the trophy position and tilting is what I consider a high elbow and what Lundgren calls it. I guess when you guys talk about high elbow you mean to say it's above the shoulder level line. It can be just a matter of linguistics and we're all on the same page. Clearly whatever this coach is showing is great advice as the results show in his students. He and I just call it high elbow.
 

WildVolley

Legend
Keeping the elbow in line with the shoulders at the trophy position and tilting is what I consider a high elbow and what Lundgren calls it. I guess when you guys talk about high elbow you mean to say it's above the shoulder level line. It can be just a matter of linguistics and we're all on the same page. Clearly whatever this coach is showing is great advice as the results show in his students. He and I just call it high elbow.

Yeah, we're on the same page.

Note, almost everyone here but you calls a high elbow an elbow clearly above the shoulder line at trophy. The OP who started this thread throws his elbow far above his shoulder line, which is why he is comforted by videos of pros doing the same thing.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
High elbow is key to a good serve, says ex coach of Roger Federer, Wawrinka, Dimitrov!!

I can't stand reading here how high elbow is a bad thing. LeeD you say that at trophy position when it counts the elbow is well below line of shoulders, well maybe during that phase. Generally a high elbow is key to a successful serve. Don't listen to me. This guy who coached Federer and a bunch of other slam winners, all time greats, knows.

I recorded this clip from Tennis Channel. What do you have to say to this video LeeD?

Sorry jussumman, you really missed the mark on this one. Did you watch the Vaidisova serve linked in the OP? The high elbow position that I was talking about in my post is not the same thing as the high elbow referenced in your video link. If you've read any of my posts on the trophy position in the past, I have always advocated that the elbow should more-or-less be in line with the shoulder tilt. Some players have the elbow tucked in (close to the body). Others have the elbow position much too high -- above the shoulder tilt. Take a look at the Tomic image below for an extreme example of this:

zx7eiq.png



This is what I was referring to be a high elbow position. This is NOT what coach Lundgren is talking about in your video. Tomic's high elbow position shown here is possibly very stressful to his shoulder/rotator according to biomechanics experts. In the past, I have provided a couple of links that discuss this.

Vaidisova's elbow is a tad too high prior to her trophy, but her elbow position is nothing like Tomic's elbow. Since her elbow does not rise too much above her shoulder tilt line and it does not stay in a "high" position for very long, she is probably not putting too much stress on the shoulder.

For an example of an elbow position that is too low, you might take a look at Djokovic prior to 2010. Here is an image of a low position on a Gulbis serve:

http://ataaznet.ipage.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Gulbis+Launch+Position.jpg
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Don't lots of big servers use a "too low" elbow positioning?
Dr.Ivo ?
Isner.
Querry.
Most of the tall guys with big serves?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Keeping the elbow in line with the shoulders at the trophy position and tilting is what I consider a high elbow and what Lundgren calls it. I guess when you guys talk about high elbow you mean to say it's above the shoulder level line. It can be just a matter of linguistics and we're all on the same page. Clearly whatever this coach is showing is great advice as the results show in his students. He and I just call it high elbow.

Just saw this post from you after my 2nd post above, Sounds like we are on the same page now. The "high position" that I was talking about wrt to Nicole's elbow position shown in the OP video. When the elbow is in line with the shoulder tilt line, I would never refer to that as a high elbow. Not unless you are seeing a very high % of elbow positions that are too low.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Don't lots of big servers use a "too low" elbow positioning?
Dr.Ivo ?
Isner.
Querry.
Most of the tall guys with big serves?

By any coaching or biomechanically definition of "too low"' no, none of the above would be considered. Ivo and John are pretty much ideal, Querry is on the lower side of the optimal range, but certainly not too low from a biomechanical standpoint.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Fellow poster from the old days when I first started, Lawman, had a really low trophy position.
I think he played at high 6.0 levels, going to at least 6 Futures/Q's/Satelite tourneys.
He said he had low elbow because of previous shoulder injuries.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This frame has her around leg thrust time. OK shoulder angle according my interpretation of the Ellenbecker video.
232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv47%3A7%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E286%3C%3B633%3B5257ot1lsi

For higher toss heights maybe the timing is adjusted in this part of the serve. ? The toss looks high. Is she waiting for the ball to come down?

Her racket face looks a little odd, grip?

Sampras has a nice take back with external shoulder rotation going into trophy position.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBv4WjGQWFQ

She misses that external shoulder rotation - if it should matter for her pre-stretch?

She's coming back.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/tenni...s-to-pro-tennis-in-albuquerque-175829265.html
 
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goran_ace

Hall of Fame
Great to see her playing again. I hadn't realized she un-retired. She still looks like "a well developed young lady" (Gimelstob)
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
My understanding is that there are Two Separate Key Checkpoints for elbow at Trophy Position:

1. The elbow should be flexed at approximately 90 degrees.

2. The elbow must also be approximately inline with the shoulder tilt.

So even if a player has the correct 90 degree elbow flexion, he may still suffer from "high elbow" or "low elbow" position as it relates to the shoulder tilt.


I think the pic on the left displays a "high elbow" position.

serve2-300x187.jpg


Elbow above shoulder tilt Elbow inline with shoulder tilt.


Which isn't true - her shoulder line is bang on 90, as you would want, but her shoulder over shoulder rotation sets her upper body angle.

I'm not clear on what Ash is saying by "shoulder line bang on 90".

90 degrees would be a very steep shoulder tilt and Vaidisova's shoulder tilt does not look to be nearly that steep.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
My understanding is that there are Two Separate Key Checkpoints for elbow at Trophy Position:

1. The elbow should be flexed at approximately 90 degrees.

2. The elbow must also be approximately inline with the shoulder tilt.

So even if a player has the correct 90 degree elbow flexion, he may still suffer from "high elbow" or "low elbow" position as it relates to the shoulder tilt.


I think the pic on the left displays a "high elbow" position.

serve2-300x187.jpg


Elbow above shoulder tilt Elbow inline with shoulder tilt.




I'm not clear on what Ash is saying by "shoulder line bang on 90".

90 degrees would be a very steep shoulder tilt and Vaidisova's shoulder tilt does not look to be nearly that steep.

A 30 fps camera takes one frame every 33 milliseconds. Vaidisova may be lowering her upper arm. You should capture all her frames that are closest to this time, and see if they show you an average. With high speed video you just look at the video and select the frame.

An angle to place the hitting arm exactly in line is not necessary, see the Ellenbecker video and look at many high level serves. I'd guess that the upper arm is 10-20 d up from in line at impact or so, on average, for high level serves, but I don't want to interpret the Ellenbecker video, you have to judge for yourself. I believe that the idea is to reduce the risk of impingement for forceful internal shoulder rotation that is used in high level serves by keeping the upper arm bone away from rubbing on the acromion. The same principle applies during the wind up for external shoulder rotation that is in the above pictures.
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
I take the reference point to be when the tossing arm is essentially vertical.

As per Jeff Salzenstein's serve instructional video, the elbow should be basically inline with the shoulder tilt...

At the moment the tossing arm is vertical, I think the server should have the hitting elbow inline and begin the collapse into the racquet drop position.

In the case of Vaidisova, when her tossing arm is vertical, her hitting elbow is not inline with shoulder tilt -- she has a "high elbow" position. But she eventually gets her elbow inline with the shoulder tilt but only AFTER dropping her tossing arm. Is this a problem? Perhaps... What is the point of getting the tossing arm vertical only to drop it early? She might be losing some of the shoulder-over-shoulder "cartwheeling" action by dropping her tossing arm before beginning the racquet drop?...

Here are examples of Jeff demonstrating incorrect (in his view) "High Elbow" and "Low Elbow" at trophy position:


0qSR4Sum.jpg



outuqpm.jpg


shH77WGm.jpg


gxuUs0m.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGWyLmyWzvc
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
An angle to place the hitting arm exactly in line is not necessary, see the Ellenbecker video and look at many high level serves. I'd guess that the upper arm is 10-20 d up from in line at impact or so, on average, for high level serves, but I don't want to interpret the Ellenbecker video, you have to judge for yourself. I believe that the idea is to reduce the risk of impingement for forceful internal shoulder rotation that is used in high level serves by keeping the upper arm bone away from rubbing on the acromion.

Ellenbecker video:

http://tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&rv=1

At 08:50 in the video,

Greater than 90 degrees shoulder abduction at serve contact risks rotator cuff injury. This also agrees with the Jim McLennan rotator cuff video.

But I don't recall Ellenbecker offering any opinion on proper elbow position at trophy...

But as Systemic Anomaly mentioned, high elbow at trophy could lead to injury over time... Don't know if low elbow at trophy will lead to injury.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
.........................................................

In the case of Vaidisova, when her tossing arm is vertical, her hitting elbow is not inline with shoulder tilt -- she has a "high elbow" position. But she eventually gets her elbow inline with the shoulder tilt but only AFTER dropping her tossing arm. Is this a problem? Perhaps... What is the point of getting the tossing arm vertical only to drop it early? She might be losing some of the shoulder-over-shoulder "cartwheeling" action by dropping her tossing arm before beginning the racquet drop?...

shH77WGl.jpg

..............................................................................

I'm taking the reference point as the lowest part of her knee bend just before the leg thrust. Look at knees or head rising.
This frame, from the same video that you posted, is later than yours and her arm is better positioned.
232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv%3A%3B7%3Enu%3D92%3B5%3E359%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D377%3B%3C%3B6%3B59348nu0mrj


From looking at several serves stop-action single-frame here are some points:
1) she raises her hitting arm very high
2) she brings it down pretty fast and is probably OK when her legs thrust up causing external shoulder rotation.
3) her upper arm drops as soon as her legs thrust up - it certainly is not high any longer during external shoulder rotation when it counts most.
Legs have extended and upper arm is low in this frame.
232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv479%3C%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E286%3C%3B%3C%3A8%3B7257ot1lsi


Have some other frames showing upper arm with knees bent. They are similar to the first image.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
:)
Ellenbecker video:

http://tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&rv=1

At 08:50 in the video,

Greater than 90 degrees shoulder abduction at serve contact risks rotator cuff injury. This also agrees with the Jim McLennan rotator cuff video.

But I don't recall Ellenbecker offering any opinion on proper elbow position at trophy...

But as Systemic Anomaly mentioned, high elbow at trophy could lead to injury over time... Don't know if low elbow at trophy will lead to injury.

That is a very good point. In addition, Ellenbecker elaborates farther on the 90 degrees of 'abduction' around minute 9 and demonstrates. He talks about shoulder tilt and its affect.

There appear to some issues involving defining shoulder abduction relative to the side of the body, as it is usually done. For purposes of shoulder impingement, 'abduction' probably should be defined relative to the movable scapula. ?

ShoulderMvmnt.jpg


Here is a discussion from another forum.
Thread -
Shoulder Orientation- Overhead Baseball Pitch & Tennis Serve
Read more: http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thre...tation-overhead-baseball-tennis#ixzz3EDVpzlsY

http://asmiforum.proboards.com/thread/2104/shoulder-orientation-overhead-baseball-tennis

A reply.
[quote author="@davewhiteside" source="/post/11741/thread" timestamp="1403566355"]I think I can help out with this:

I saw the reply but it brought up some more complications that I've already had with clearly understanding the Ellenbecker video. The various joints' angular positions are defined for the anatomical position, for example, standing with a straight spine and raising the arm out to the side. In in the real world the scapula can assume quite an angle and the spine can be bent, especially laterally. I have to study the issue of joints' angular positions more to understand Kinwar's data better. Does 'shoulder abduction' relate to the angle to side of the body from the anatomical position or is it the glenohumeral joint's angle where the GH joint itself can also be rotated up separately by the scapula's angular position. I'll look up these joint position definitions when I have more time.
The way we generally define shoulder abduction is the angle created between the upper arm the side of the trunk:
2hpui4n.png


Using more scientific language, it can be defined by comparing the the long-axis of the trunk and long-axis of the upper arm. In other words, if your arm is resting by your side, shoulder abduction will be close to 0°. If you raise your arm to horizontal, shoulder abduction will be 90°. Point to the sky, it's 180°.

In theory, you could report the upper arm relative to the scapula, however the preponderance of tennis and baseball research I've seen uses the thorax and upper arm.

[/quote]

As far as the 90 degree elbow angle for the trophy position, I believe that Ellenbecker's video emphasizes the very violent internal shoulder rotation leading to impact and in the follow through. The much more gradual external shoulder rotation around the trophy position is also an impingement risk but I guess probably not as much.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I take the reference point to be when the tossing arm is essentially vertical. As per Jeff Salzenstein's serve instructional video, the elbow should be basically inline with the shoulder tilt...

At the moment the tossing arm is vertical, I think the server should have the hitting elbow inline and begin the collapse into the racquet drop position.

In the case of Vaidisova, when her tossing arm is vertical, her hitting elbow is not inline with shoulder tilt -- she has a "high elbow" position. But she eventually gets her elbow inline with the shoulder tilt but only AFTER dropping her tossing arm. Is this a problem? ...

Not yet looked at Chas' response in depth to this but here is my take. [Note: The OP video does not have quite the resolution (frame rate) that I would prefer]

Nicole does appear to start to drop her tossing arm a little bit early. However, from what I can see in this video, her right elbow appears to start dropping to the the "preferred position" a split second before the tossing arm starts to drop. Difficult to say with absolute certainty with this video tho'. The left arm does drop a bit from the vertical by the time the right elbow is in line with the shoulder tilt. (Chas' image in post #25 is very close to this).

While the tossing arm is no longer vertical when the elbow is in the "optimal position", I would say that it might be close enough. Perhaps not ideal, but the tossing arm is not really all that far from the vertical. Some high-level servers do not even get to a full vertical position for the trophy. Or the tossing arm is at some other high position when the racket arm appears to be in the trophy phase. Mechanics & timing vary a bit from one high level server to the next. Take a look at the left arm position in these images of servers at the trophy position (or close to the trophy position).

roddick-serve-03.jpg


http://www.tacticaltennisblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/2012-08-29T202822Z_1_CBRE87S1KVG00_RTROPTP_3_SPORTS-US-TENNIS-OPEN-ISNER_JPG_475x310_q85.jpg
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/Resources/step120.jpeg
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
I'm taking the reference point as the lowest part of her knee bend just before the leg thrust. Look at knees or head rising.
This frame, from the same video that you posted, is later than yours and her arm is better positioned.

232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv%3A%3B7%3Enu%3D92%3B5%3E359%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D377%3B%3C%3B6%3B59348nu0mrj
outuqpF.jpg



I see.

With that approach, if we take the beginning of the leg thrust to be the "trophy position", we can examine and evaluate her position at that relevant point in the motion, where she achieves a somewhat better inline elbow position.

And Vaidisova's "high elbow" prior to that point, may not be altogether significant. Maybe personal preference. (Although I think it might be an unnecessary motion that complicates the serve).

I follow Jeff's "trophy pose" checkpoint of making sure the hitting elbow is inline with the shoulder tilt at the precise moment the tossing arm has finished raising and is approximately vertical (few degrees leeway there).

With that standard, Vaidisova exhibits the same "high elbow" flaw that Jeff corrects with the student in the "High Elbow" pic above...

I think it's important to clearly define the "trophy pose" terminology, so when someone speaks of a "high elbow" position we know precisely what point of the service motion is being referenced.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Ellenbecker video:
http://tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&rv=1

At 08:50 in the video,
Greater than 90 degrees shoulder abduction at serve contact risks rotator cuff injury. This also agrees with the Jim McLennan rotator cuff video.

But I don't recall Ellenbecker offering any opinion on proper elbow position at trophy...

But as Systemic Anomaly mentioned, high elbow at trophy could lead to injury over time... Don't know if low elbow at trophy will lead to injury.

I believe that you are correct. Ellenbecker does not specifically talk about a proper elbow position at the trophy. However, from what he does say in the video, it does make sense that a very high elbow position (significantly greater than 90 degrees of abduction) at the trophy position or prior to the trophy position might also be stressful to the shoulder/rotator cuff. Other sources have indicated that a high number of reps of these high elbow position are probably detrimental to the shoulder. These sources include discussions with a chiropractor, physical therapist, and numerous players with shoulder issues as well as written articles on the subject. Some of these players with shoulder problems have indicated that they were told by medical experts that the shoulder is not really designed for repetitive motions with the arm lifted much higher than 90 degrees of abduction.

I have also had a quite a few students who have employed a high elbow position similar to the Tomic images (post #19). A few of them had developed shoulder pain in less than a year. When we corrected the elbow position, the problem subsided. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence and my sample size is relatively small. However, many shoulder issues will take years, even decades, to manifest and I have seen enough first hand to satisfy my beliefs about elbow/shoulder positions for the tennis serve.

I've also seen quite a few students who have employed a very low shoulder position at the trophy position. I do not recall any more than one case of shoulder pain (injury) associated with a very low position. The biggest problems that I've seen with a very low elbow position are timing errors and/or inadequate racket head drops. With a very low elbow position, the timing of the racket head drop and/or upward swing to contact can be erratic. I have also seen cases where players were able to produce a decent amount of spin with a low elbow position but unable to produce very much power. I have seen a few exceptions to this however. Some were able to produce a ton of power (but consistency may have been less than ideal).
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Since developing shoulder/rotator issues from volleyball in the early 90s, I have been looking closely at the mechanics of throwing, volleyball spiking, badminton smashing (and clearing) and tennis serves (and overheads). It appeared to me that the mechanics that many elite volleyball players employ for the spike is particularly stressful to the shoulder/rotator. Many volleyball players do develop shoulder/rotator injuries from overuse. The following article appears to confirm my suspicions. This article undoubtedly also has considerable relevance to tennis serves and other overhand throwing/hitting actions.

http://prefitpt.com/blog/2013/08/19/the-biomechanics-of-volleyball-the-arm-swing-part-2-2-of-many/

The following article on baseball pitching/throwing should also be a caveat for tennis servers. The shoulder tilt for baseball pitchers is very close to horizontal so only the right shoulder (for a righty) is used as a reference for the elbow position. The torso rotation is a bit different (simpler) since the torso is not tilted either. However, there is still quite a bit of the mechanics that is similar to a tennis serve. In this video, Dick Mills talks about the dangers of a very low elbow position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvNMvOeHUL8
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Jeff Salzenberg's instruction looks like a very good approach. I can see where raising the upper arm very high early could cause trouble if it is still high at the trophy position. You would not want to have to carefully time bringing the arm into position. Vladisova's upper arm moves down pretty fast, you can see movement each frame.

I just started downloading videos from Youtube to analyze them on free Quicktime. It works great with no fumbling around trying to catch the best frame. I could find all of Vladisova's frames quickly. Highly recommend doing it to anyone interested in analyzing tennis strokes with the detail that we have gone into here. On Youtube page, use their search box to find a Dave...? video that describes how to do it. Search: downloading Youtube videos

'Trophy pose' is probably by appearance only in usage. The deepest knee bend as a checkpoint is something that I just decided to use. Leg thrust externally rotates the shoulder and it seems like the shoulder should be in a good orientation for that.

If you look at the Sampras video above, none of these issues come up and his hitting shoulder always looks well aligned.

I think that the main idea should not involve the tossing arm. The upper arm bone of the hitting arm, the humerus, ends in a ball that fits into the the very shallow socket of the glenohumeral (shoulder) joint, part of the moveable scapula. At the extreme levels of performance for the serve this bone end has to be controlled to stay in place.

It is very hard to accurately know how the scapula is oriented from pictures or videos. Viewed from behind it is easier to draw a line from the tossing shoulder through the hitting shoulder and compare how that line lines up with the upper arm bone.

We should view these angles with a grain of salt. Here is Federer almost to impact. His arm looks high. I believe he may have had a back problem at that time.

People's shoulder structures vary and some are more at risk of impinging than others.

But use the Ellenbecker video and not my interpretations.

17 milliseconds before impact. Federer has stretched his ISR muscles using the various phases of the kinetic chain. Here he lets these muscles rapidly shorten, rotating his entire arm to accelerate the racket to just before impact. Probably about 70° arm rotation in 4 frames at 240 fps, the internal shoulder rotation rate is about 2800°/sec. Muscle shortening using pre-stretch is 'passive' and probably does not give the feeling of much effort. Impact was on the next frame, not shown.

The rapid wrist flexion may be a result of the ISR or earlier elbow extension and not wrist flexor muscles. ?

The racket 'edge-on' to the ball to the racket strings on the ball results mostly from the ISR turning the racket face as shown in these frames.

On the last frame just before impact, the angle between the forearm and racket is about 40° as viewed. (Probably a kick or slice serve.)

The angle between his shoulders and the upper arm is 145° (arm 35° up from shoulder line extended) as viewed in this frame. That is a little more than most, 10-20°(?) up. See Ellenbecker video on the shoulder, serve and orientation to avoid impingement.

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232323232%7Ffp54433%3Enu%3D92%3B5%3E359%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D36%3A275%3A986348nu0mrj
232323232%7Ffp54397%3Enu%3D92%3B5%3E359%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D36%3A27695%3C7348nu0mrj
232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv7628%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E2793669%3A78257ot1lsi


This is what determines the pace and quality of the serve. How can you see it without high speed video?

The next time you are playing look at the shoulder orientations of your opponents or other players. You will see a lot of shoulder orientations, many not very good according to Ellenbecker and McLennan. However, many/most of these people are probably not using strong internal shoulder rotation on their serves. If you have an unknown serving technique you are on your own for safety.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The come back bio posted above on Vladisova indicates that she has had shoulder injuries -
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/tenni...s-to-pro-tennis-in-albuquerque-175829265.html

"Why did she quit?

.................................There were a lot injuries, surgery, and rehab – two shoulder operations, the most recent a year ago."

This issue should be studied with high speed video throughout the serve and not just at a few checkpoints. The highest stress or impingement risk could be around the time that the internal shoulder rotation acceleration is greatest or when the rotation rate is high. ?
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Shoulder orientation near impact.

232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv8%3C4%3C%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E287327257%3A257ot1lsi


Could be high. ?

But it would take some comparisons from this same camera angle to judge........
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Opponent. I saw this serve. An ace wide outside, 40-40, 2nd set 3-5.

232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv67%3B%3A%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E2873289364257ot1lsi


From this camera angle, this looks like a very risky shoulder orientation.

Leaves me with some questions........
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Just saw this post from you after my 2nd post above, Sounds like we are on the same page now. The "high position" that I was talking about wrt to Nicole's elbow position shown in the OP video. When the elbow is in line with the shoulder tilt line, I would never refer to that as a high elbow.

One question with regard to establishing the "shoulder tilt line", specifically the position of the back shoulder (hitting shoulder) at trophy position.

I am following Jeff's guideline of letting the tossing arm continue upwards to an approximate vertical position.

In the pic below, Jeff's student also creates a bit of "archer's bow" by leading with the hip. The degree of leading hip is probably personal preference.

This extended tossing arm position and leading hip will naturally create a shoulder tilt position.

At this trophy position point, we can draw a line from the front tossing shoulder to the back hitting shoulder to establish the "shoulder tilt line".

In other words, we don't really have to consciously manipulate the position of the back hitting shoulder.

Just allow the tossing arm to extend, and the archer's bow to form and simply let the hitting shoulder naturally drop to a low position?

Is that the idea?


gxuUs0l.jpg
 
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Shoulder orientation near impact.

232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv8%3C4%3C%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E287327257%3A257ot1lsi


Could be high. ?

But it would take some comparisons from this same camera angle to judge........

Looks okay to me. Almost nobody can get the elbow-shoulder line perfect.

Opponent. I saw this serve. An ace wide outside, 40-40, 2nd set 3-5.

232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv67%3B%3A%3Dot%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E2873289364257ot1lsi


From this camera angle, this looks like a very risky shoulder orientation.

Leaves me with some questions........

She looks like she can hurt her shoulder.
 
One question with regard to establishing the "shoulder tilt line", specifically the position of the back shoulder (hitting shoulder) at trophy position.

I am following Jeff's guideline of letting the tossing arm continue upwards to an approximate vertical position.

In the pic below, Jeff's student also creates a bit of "archer's bow" by leading with the hip. The degree of leading hip is probably personal preference.

This extended tossing arm position and leading hip will naturally create a shoulder tilt position.

At this trophy position point, we can draw a line from the front tossing shoulder to the back hitting shoulder to establish the "shoulder tilt line".

In other words, we don't really have to consciously manipulate the position of the back hitting shoulder.

Just allow the tossing arm to extend, and the archer's bow to form and simply let the hitting shoulder naturally drop to a low position?

Is that the idea?


gxuUs0l.jpg

Sounds about right.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Shoulder orientation near impact.

Could be high. ?

But it would take some comparisons from this same camera angle to judge........

Too high meaning greater than the recommended 90 degree shoulder abduction at impact discussed by Ellenbecker?

I think one problem with implementing Ellenbecker's tip is that it is not all that physically easy to get into such a steep shoulder tilt position at impact.

Especially for rec players.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
^ Even the best server's will usually be at greater than 90 degrees of abduction at contact -- but not much greater than 120 degrees for elite servers. To achieve this, the front shoulder must be pulled down sufficiently for a steep (reverse) tilt. When a rec player reaches up for the contact with an inadequate tilt, the abduction angle can be greater than 140 degrees (sometimes nearly 180 degrees... ouch!). Here is Federer at contact:

http://www.tenniscruz.ch/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Federer-service-Contact.jpg

With a lesser shoulder tilt at contact, the rec player should probably follow the advice of Jim McLennan for getting leverage on the serve w/o stressing the shoulder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsYFra60Q0
 

jjsang23

New User
Vaidisova has a really high elbow in her serve - if you watch it here in slow motion at 25% speed its easy to see

http://youtu.be/coX9CqO0EJk?t=3m6s

Her hitting elbow only just drops below her shoulder. Is this really so bad? Her serve is one of her best shots and she's been in the worlds top 10.

I've been struggling to get my hitting elbow low (well failing more precisely) with my own serve - I'm thinking maybe its not as big a problem as I thought. I don't know

Her trophy position looks pretty good to me...
https://imageshack.com/i/eymqvK4gp
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
^ Even the best server's will usually be at greater than 90 degrees of abduction at contact -- but not much greater than 120 degrees for elite servers. To achieve this, the front shoulder must be pulled down sufficiently for a steep (reverse) tilt.

I think I understand now what Ellenbecker means by the 90 degrees of abduction at contact.

When you drop the front shoulder, the hitting shoulder scapula upwardly rotates.

Video of scapular upward rotation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjYpnDQvkt8

So biomechanically, you are effectively impacting the serve with about a 90 degree shoulder abduction.

Ellenbecker video: http://tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&rv=1

At 08:45. "The tennis serves all occur at about 90 degrees of abduction."
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Too high meaning greater than the recommended 90 degree shoulder abduction at impact discussed by Ellenbecker?

I think one problem with implementing Ellenbecker's tip is that it is not all that physically easy to get into such a steep shoulder tilt position at impact.

Especially for rec players.
We may be taking joint angles defined for other purposes, such as measuring range of motion, into complex athletic motions that they were not originally intended for. Shoulder 'abduction' as defined is a problem as my earlier reply discussed. I received a reply from an expert, which is posted in reply #34 .

This site has an on-topic discussion of the shoulder.
http://bestperformancegroup.com/?page_id=921

Shoulder girdle and humerus (upper arm bone).
shldrgirdle.png


The shoulder girdle can be tilted in relation to the spine. That will change the angle between the arm and side of the body or spine/thorax = will change the abduction angle. But when the upper body tilts, the arm may still have the same exact angle relative to the scapula. See discussion in reply #34.

Raul_SJ, you want to get a word of text such as "90°" that simplifies a very complex issue. It does not. I think your question points out an inconsistency in this issue regarding the definition and applicability of shoulder 'abduction'.

Ellenbecker has put our attention on this issue with a lot of detail. I believe that he also explains tilting the shoulders adequately around minute 9. In a 20 minute video, he can't give an anatomy lesson. We can find pictures and videos of high level serves to further understand this issue in detail, I think that viewing pictures is necessary.

My opinion - If you look at the shoulder girdle and draw a line between the balls on each humerus, you have a reference line. That line can be tilted by trunk motions and maybe other motions. As that line tilts, the tilt alone directly affects the 'abduction angle' - as defined and used - the angle between the arm and the side of the body.

In usage, this is probably how shoulder abduction is measured.
2hpui4n.png


Most important for injury issues is probably the positions of the humerus and acromion, details unknown. The acromion and shoulder joint itself are part of the scapula, and the humerus is in contact with the shoulder joint. The scapula is also connected to the clavicle by a joint so that the scapula can move on its own relative to the line of the shoulder girdle (see illustration reply #34). It can be left to future generations to figure this all out.........and exactly what causes the injury..... Fortunately, we have now important guidance in Ellenbecker's video - probably enough information to avoid many shoulder injuries, otherwise, we would have nothing.

My view - Since I can't see the scapula very accurately, I look at the line between the shoulders and extend it to form an angle with the upper arm bone. I would estimate at impact for a high level serve that the upper arm bone forms an average angle of 10-20° above shoulder line extended. That is a lose estimate, but, say, arm up 40° does not look right to me. I don't think in terms of abduction angle on the serve because of the shoulder tilt. If the shoulders were not tilted as in the service impact and the arm-shoulder line angle were 10-20° up, the 'abduction' angle would be 100-110° - more than the 90°. You should view the Ellenbecker video and high level serve videos and make your own estimates. Camera viewing angle is important for estimating angles.

We can see what many high level servers, using internal shoulder rotation, are doing in pictures and videos and copy this orientation if we choose. For servers using unknown serving techniques, Waiter's Tray, etc. or rec players with physical limitations, consider the information, but you are on your own for injury risk issues.

Look at the shoulder angles of players at your courts.
 
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