Vatic Pro Prism Flash excellent

[kreative]

I visited a big Tennis and Pickleball supplier today in Reading PA..
I didn't get to demo anything, but I did see many paddles to get an idea of grip sizes..as well as hybrid shapes and lengths of paddles..
The best feeling grip was the Engage MX Pursuit 6.0 Pro as it was nearly identical feeling to a tennis racket..the paddle also felt very good in hand.
But I wanted to see how others felt in hand..
I know this is a Vatic thread and I want to respect that... But anyone have an experience and comments regarding the Gamma Obsidian or the Engage MX Pursuit 6.0 Pro.?
You can DM me here..
Many thanks in advance..
A...

Haven't played with either unfortunately. The original Engage Pursuits (non-ultra) were a huge hit on many local courts. Engage flopped with the Ultra series and since then I've only seen one person playing with the Pro so far.

 

[kreative]

We sound like we are at similar learning curve place.

Adding the 2hbh very late in my tennis has created a problem in pickleball … choices. I consider myself lucky in hindsight that I had only the 1hbh in tennis until near the end. I’m where you are … working out where to go with 2hbh.

As it stands now:

- 1hbh flat - default baseline drive
- 1hbh slice - default ros
- 1hbh - default volley
- 1hbh - default dink other than 2hbh cc dink unless 1hbh needed for reach

- 2hbh ros occasionally to mix it up
- 2hbh swing volley from transition occasionally … I put this one at the top of what needs to become my go to … hard after so many years of 1hbh s&v
- 2hbh default cross court 3rd shot ts drop from left/ad side … I was pretty lethal with tennis 1hbh drop, but I never think 1hbh slice 3rd shot drop, maybe I should

I have noticed against better players topspin doesn’t gain you much on ros (other than keep it in ). Seems like my main thought/goal in rec play should be to make the servers 3rd shot drive or drop the most difficult. Topspin just makes the wiffle bounce a little higher … low slice seems to make opponent make more errors on 3rd shot. So at this point … other than just enjoying hitting 2hbh ros … I would put that low on the list of improving play/results. I put 2hbh swing volley from transition at the top, and also from kitchen when it’s presented to me with enough time and spacing. I intend to stick with 1hbh volley on most volleys at body … no Anna Leigh matrix slide to the right for me.

What other ares do you think 2hbh would be good? I guess 3rd shot drive choice depends on player’s best backhand. For me … it also depends on bounce and reach … for those stretched and low … I need to hit 1hbh.

Maybe it's late and my brain is tired or I must have missed it, but what is "ros"?

In tennis, over the years I've switched back and forth between a 1hbh and 2hbh for for the last 10-15 years it's been a 2hbh drive with 1hbh slice and volley. In pickleball, I tend to slice and drop on by bh so the 1-hander felt more natural. 1hbh volley felt more natural as well. I can hit a 1hbh drive, but my default muscle memory doesn't think about doing that so as I'm trying to mix up drives more I'm trying to incorporate the 2hbh. The biggest areas I see advantages in are the mid-court swing volley and drive volley both shots I don't hit in tennis...go figure, lol. I also think it could help me with countering during kitchen fire fights and also lend to improve stability on the dinks although would need to improve footwork due to less reach, but the court it smaller...

 

[Bud]

Maybe it's late and my brain is tired or I must have missed it, but what is "ros"?

In tennis, over the years I've switched back and forth between a 1hbh and 2hbh for for the last 10-15 years it's been a 2hbh drive with 1hbh slice and volley. In pickleball, I tend to slice and drop on by bh so the 1-hander felt more natural. 1hbh volley felt more natural as well. I can hit a 1hbh drive, but my default muscle memory doesn't think about doing that so as I'm trying to mix up drives more I'm trying to incorporate the 2hbh. The biggest areas I see advantages in are the mid-court swing volley and drive volley both shots I don't hit in tennis...go figure, lol. I also think it could help me with countering during kitchen fire fights and also lend to improve stability on the dinks although would need to improve footwork due to less reach, but the court it smaller...

Return of serve

 

[ByeByePoly]

Maybe it's late and my brain is tired or I must have missed it, but what is "ros"?

In tennis, over the years I've switched back and forth between a 1hbh and 2hbh for for the last 10-15 years it's been a 2hbh drive with 1hbh slice and volley. In pickleball, I tend to slice and drop on by bh so the 1-hander felt more natural. 1hbh volley felt more natural as well. I can hit a 1hbh drive, but my default muscle memory doesn't think about doing that so as I'm trying to mix up drives more I'm trying to incorporate the 2hbh. The biggest areas I see advantages in are the mid-court swing volley and drive volley both shots I don't hit in tennis...go figure, lol. I also think it could help me with countering during kitchen fire fights and also lend to improve stability on the dinks although would need to improve footwork due to less reach, but the court it smaller...

ros (return of serve) is a habit I picked up from too much typing in tennis tips forum. I should spell it out here … and will.

bolded … agree and same, and for me also 2hbh cross court dink.

One of my problems with 1hbh dinking has been as a tennis player that hit a lot of 1hbh slice (baseline and some backspin on some 1hbh volleys). So I showed up in pickleball trying to slice most 1hbh dinks. Also high volleys at kitchen until it hit me that if a ball was high enough to hit flat or downward 1hbh slice than it was high enough to drive (yeah I felt stupid). So on dinks … tendency for too much slice and added wrist play. I obviously could just fix that on 1hbh dinks … and pretty much did on less slice unless there and easy dink … pretty much didn’t fix the too much wrist play (still shows up when stretched on 1hbh cross court dink). I watch the pros … and they hold that firm wrist position (sometimes with extension with wrist back to square up the paddle) … no wrist and all arm pendulum. Well … the 2hbh dink seemed to solve much of this for me … no slice, not wrist play (every now and then I might flip the hands for aggressive 2hbh cross court dink with a little topspin), and by definition the two arm swing is a simple pendulum.

So … basically have converted to 2hbh dink now … thinking 2hbh swing volley work in progress. I think transition zone 2hbh swing volley is by far the biggest gain … so that is the first up to bat.

btw … on backhand drives my mind from tennis thinks flat 1hbh low over the net (particularly down the line). If topspin drive … particularly cross court … I think 2hbh. If I’m on left/ad side and hitting cross court topspin drop I have already switched to 2hbh. For whatever reason I never think 1hbh slice 3rd shot drops … which is weird because I had a very good 1hbh tennis drop shot. Perhaps that variety should be added to the list. Once I’m in a competitive match I tend to default to same narrow habits.

I will throw this John Cincola video in here since I was talking about 2hbh cross court dinks. There are times on wide dinks where I need to go with 1hbh dink for reach. My thinking is (after watching video) … my go to dink not past my body/outside foot 2hbh cross court as much angle as desired, past my body/outside foot 1hbh dink to middle or straight over net. Obviously one’s shuffle step speed and range changes what is “past body/outside foot”.

Really starting to appreciate Cincola’s instruction videos. I was talking to one of our better players and he had also come to the same conclusion.

 

[ByeByePoly]

fyi … pulled out my Pro V7 16mm last night and I my timing from baseline was off after 2ish months with Pro Flash 14mm. Played V7 for 5+ months and had total control with it. LOL … just goes to show with even paddles … full baseline swings and timing match swing weight.

 

[kreative]

ros (return of serve) is a habit I picked up from too much typing in tennis tips forum. I should spell it out here … and will.

bolded … agree and same, and for me also 2hbh cross court dink.

One of my problems with 1hbh dinking has been as a tennis player that hit a lot of 1hbh slice (baseline and some backspin on some 1hbh volleys). So I showed up in pickleball trying to slice most 1hbh dinks. Also high volleys at kitchen until it hit me that if a ball was high enough to hit flat or downward 1hbh slice than it was high enough to drive (yeah I felt stupid). So on dinks … tendency for too much slice and added wrist play. I obviously could just fix that on 1hbh dinks … and pretty much did on less slice unless there and easy dink … pretty much didn’t fix the too much wrist play (still shows up when stretched on 1hbh cross court dink). I watch the pros … and they hold that firm wrist position (sometimes with extension with wrist back to square up the paddle) … no wrist and all arm pendulum. Well … the 2hbh dink seemed to solve much of this for me … no slice, not wrist play (every now and then I might flip the hands for aggressive 2hbh cross court dink with a little topspin), and by definition the two arm swing is a simple pendulum.

So … basically have converted to 2hbh dink now … thinking 2hbh swing volley work in progress. I think transition zone 2hbh swing volley is by far the biggest gain … so that is the first up to bat.

btw … on backhand drives my mind from tennis thinks flat 1hbh low over the net (particularly down the line). If topspin drive … particularly cross court … I think 2hbh. If I’m on left/ad side and hitting cross court topspin drop I have already switched to 2hbh. For whatever reason I never think 1hbh slice 3rd shot drops … which is weird because I had a very good 1hbh tennis drop shot. Perhaps that variety should be added to the list. Once I’m in a competitive match I tend to default to same narrow habits.

I will throw this John Cincola video in here since I was talking about 2hbh cross court dinks. There are times on wide dinks where I need to go with 1hbh dink for reach. My thinking is (after watching video) … my go to dink not past my body/outside foot 2hbh cross court as much angle as desired, past my body/outside foot 1hbh dink to middle or straight over net. Obviously one’s shuffle step speed and range changes what is “past body/outside foot”.

Really starting to appreciate Cincola’s instruction videos. I was talking to one of our better players and he had also come to the same conclusion.

Definitely agree...I have the same "bad" habit transitioning from tennis hitting my 1hbh with too much slice so I've been working on that as well.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Definitely agree...I have the same "bad" habit transitioning from tennis hitting my 1hbh with too much slice so I've been working on that as well.

Latest in my paddle over analysis … I now do not expect to ever be satisfied with any paddle. Perhaps I should just drill and forget paddles … lol. Actually looks like drilling will be in my future … but with paddle obsession.

Sad confession to follow:

I had added weight to Vatic Flashes (Prism 16mm 8.5 oz, Pro 14mm 8.7 oz) trying to match extended paddle drives while maintaining the quicker hand advantage of the hybrid shape. I have decided that is a self-defeating exercise … either stick with thermoformed extended and be ”good enough” dinking with it … OR … play with hybrid or standard paddle and keep them light/fast.

So my first test/experiment was remove lead from Flash 14mm … 8.7 oz -> 8.3 oz (only lead left at 4 and 8). Played acceptable from baseline, all upside from kitchen … particularly roll volleys to targets (still enjoy wife’s Flash 16 @8.2 oz the most with roll volleys … effortless point and shoot).

So … good to go right … thermoformed Flash 14mm it is. It would have been … but I thought “why not remove weight from Prism Flash 16mm and revisit playing with it“. I did … 8.5 oz -> 8.2 oz. Played doubles with it for 2+ hours with some of our better doubles players … very good results with less banging and improved control (dink tolerance, drops, resets, fine in firefights without thermoformed pop, etc). So one has to ask oneself … does power win more higher intermediate and up doubles or does maximum control. Asked a different way … does 3rd shot drive pace win more or lethal 3rd shot drops, more resets back into opponent kitchen, more dink accuracy and shot tolerance.

Not sure … definitely want the answer to be banging … but that hasn’t been my observation … at least not as a given. I watched our 5.0 pro destroy some of our best bangers in doubles and never hit a 3rd shot drive.

From today:

cons:
- my forehand drives much less … I can really bang a forehand with V7
- Prism Flash spin good but noticeably not as good as Vatic thermoformed … time would tell if baseline topspin lob still an option for me. Still get good 1hbh backspin on return of serve, but not as much as Flash 14mm.

pros:
- putting this at top because I found it most satisfying… extra control/precision helped find those illusive opponent backhands. That is a big deal with so many one wing bandits in pickleball … great forehands and anemic backhands. Nothing has bothered me more coming from tennis not being able to exploit backhand weakness easily
- I am more accurate hitting to targets with the Prism Flash 16mm than any other paddle I have tried so far. For example … serving tight to right/deuce Tee, or return serve to target. Also … although paddle is medium power, ability to swing out more even in pickleball can be useful.
- Resetting (or attempting to) while under fire in transition area seems more easy and accurate. I think since so many balls come back in this silly game … this has to count for a lot in winning and losing.
- 1hbh slice drop was a thing … no idea why I haven’t been using this all year given my tennis 1hbh drop.

I stuck with the Prism today … Monday will stick with Flash 14mm. In particular… I want to hit 1hbh slice drops and test my accuracy. This reminds me … forehand topspin drops seem easier with all the Vatic thermoformed … the extra easy topspin matters on those for me.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Vatic Prism Flash 16mm @8.2 oz it is. Three open play doubles sessions …touch and control and accuracy works in doubles … who knew? Why didn’t someone tell me to buy $90 paddle and stop?

Anyone that comes from tennis and has experienced thermoformed power and spin is unlikely to give it up. That said … if you are in the middle of figuring out this game like me and making paddle choices, probably not a bad idea to throw a control paddle in the mix.

This is my sound advice until my next paddle purchase.

 

[kreative]

You're right that I've gotten too used to thermoformed power, not so much that I'm hitting baseline drives all the time, but more so less swing required on defensive resets or countering drives.

Glad to hear that you've found a setup that works.

 

[ByeByePoly]

You're right that I've gotten too used to thermoformed power, not so much that I'm hitting baseline drives all the time, but more so less swing required on defensive resets or countering drives.

Glad to hear that you've found a setup that works.

Any guesses on how long? Over and under on a week?

 

[ByeByePoly]

You're right that I've gotten too used to thermoformed power, not so much that I'm hitting baseline drives all the time, but more so less swing required on defensive resets or countering drives.

Glad to hear that you've found a setup that works.

Experienced tennis players typically pick rackets, string and tension based on swing speed. To me my wife’s setup was a rocket launcher, and she thought mine lacked power. My guess is that even in pickleball doubles that becomes more of factor in future paddle trends. The problem is that in doubles pickleball the “match your swing speed” thing makes sense with drives, serves, return of serves, overheads, swinging volleys … but not so much with dinks, blocks, counters, roll volleys, firefights (basically everything at kitchen other than overheads).

So one might guess the best doubles paddle would be controlled power but also good pop at kitchen. I think some of the newer paddles like the Ronbus Nova might be a move in that direction (fyi … haven’t hit it). But to me … I think there are more variables at the kitchen (will always be a tradeoff). For example … give me a heavy static weight non-poppy paddle to reset a ball blasted at me at the kitchen. However … countering those same blasts … would like lighter poppy paddle (poppy giving less time for opponent, lighter for faster hands, both lateral and wristy snap hand speed/movements). I already proved to myself that 8.7oz Flash 14mm was fine (actually good) for straight on 1hbh punch volleys, but throw in need for quick reaction and reach and 8.7oz feels heavier.

We ain’t in Kansas (tennis) anymore … best you can do is be informed and pick elements of the tradeoff that is most important to you.

For example … here are my tradeoffs one year into doubles:

- flash shape over extended (baseline and reach loss, *kitchen gain and faster hands)
- 8.2oz or less (baseline and overhead loss, *kitchen gain and faster hands)
- non-thermoformed (drives power and spin loss, control gain)

* I have not hit a standard shape shorter/wider paddle recently. We had Prince Response Pros early on. For some doubles only rec players … I bet it’s the right choice. I assume splitting the difference with hybrid shape/length generally better for tennis players.

2024 … more drills less paddles

I would still enjoy being able to try new paddles for entire games. I get to hit other’s paddles at open play in warmup on occasion:

I have recently hit (briefly):

- Volair Forza Mach 1
- Gearbox Pro Power Elongated
- Six Zero Double Black Diamond

The only one that immediately struck me as “nice, would like to hit this more” was the 6.0 DBD. Would also be curious about the Ruby … not Infinity because I want the edge guard.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I visited a big Tennis and Pickleball supplier today in Reading PA..
I didn't get to demo anything, but I did see many paddles to get an idea of grip sizes..as well as hybrid shapes and lengths of paddles..
The best feeling grip was the Engage MX Pursuit 6.0 Pro as it was nearly identical feeling to a tennis racket..the paddle also felt very good in hand.
But I wanted to see how others felt in hand..
I know this is a Vatic thread and I want to respect that... But anyone have an experience and comments regarding the Gamma Obsidian or the Engage MX Pursuit 6.0 Pro.?
You can DM me here..
Many thanks in advance..
A...

Sorry … Engage hasn’t been on my radar ($270) but I remembered the latest one you mentioned got rave reviews from top paddle reviewers.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I probably already posted this … but here are thoughts from 5.0+ guys on Vatic Prisms:

Short version: “seeking max power/spin look elsewhere … but otherwise good to go beginner to pro”

btw … none of us getting paid for our pickleball. I wouldn’t think of switching my tennis racket from match to match, timing, accuracy and shot tolerance was everything. But pickleball … yeah … might just need to pull out the banger paddle on occasion for fun.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Any guesses on how long? Over and under on a week?

Update:

I love me some purple … made it over a week … no new paddles. Have played with only Prism for 5-6 sessions and have had my best results. Same education as tennis … low user errors win. I did bump Prism back up to 8.4oz and that is where I will keep it.

 

[Longbow5]

Update:

I love me some purple … made it over a week … no new paddles. Have played with only Prism for 5-6 sessions and have had my best results. Same education as tennis … low user errors win. I did bump Prism back up to 8.4oz and that is where I will keep it.

BBP, you have the weight at 4 and 8 o'clock positions? Thank you for all your posts.

 

[ByeByePoly]

.

 

[ByeByePoly]

BBP, you have the weight at 4 and 8 o'clock positions? Thank you for all your posts.

prism flash 16mm … 3g at 4 and 8 … 8.4 oz

pro flash 14mm … 3g at 4, 8, tip … 8.4 oz … have played up to 8.6 oz

pro V7 16mm … no lead … 8.4 oz

All 8.4 oz was just a coincidence … experimentation just ended there. Overgrip and head tape/electrical tape on all three paddles, which surprisingly factors into the weight.

I played with the prism for 2 months and really like that paddle. In last 2 weeks went back to pro flash 14mm for one reason … topspin lob. I’m still convinced that one shot is enough of a doubles game changer for me to accept a little less consistency. The prism 16mm has very good topspin, but the pro flash 14mm additional spin gives me the best chance for baseline topspin to become a legit low user error shot. We will see … sometimes plans fail.

 

[fishepa]

I've just started getting into Pickleball, coming from tennis 3.5. What exactly is the difference in playability in a Flash 16mm vs 14mm?

 

[ByeByePoly]

I've just started getting into Pickleball, coming from tennis 3.5. What exactly is the difference in playability in a Flash 16mm vs 14mm?

Flash 16mm more forgiving and more power from baseline and pop at kitchen. Usually 14mm more pop at kitchen than 16mm, not our experience with our 2 pro flashes.

14mm you can swing out more without fear of launching, but stiffer pingy feeling.

Your final pickleball level will quickly be determined by kitchen skills more than baseline (dinking, firefights, roll volleys, smashes). Thinking back on this year I might have improved faster if someone put a control paddle in my hand and tell me to forget about baseline and power paddles. That said … banging with pro V7 good transition therapy from tennis.

Every type of paddle is a trade off … pick what is most important to you. Power vs fastest hands at kitchen.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I've just started getting into Pickleball, coming from tennis 3.5. What exactly is the difference in playability in a Flash 16mm vs 14mm?

Short version: just buy 16mm … will feel better than 14mm.

For the best paddle reviewer answer to your question, I will link Chris Olson (Pickleball Studio) review at the bottom. My experience with wife’s 16mm and my 14mm matches pretty much everything he said, except I didn’t think dinking and resetting was any harder with 16mm, just more springy (actually pleasant) assist.

I thought of a different way to give you a “fellow tennis player reply” … just some random thoughts from an aging 4.5 tennis player that still has 4.5 strokes but “3.5 at best legs”

Doubles:

- I lose all the time when I had the best strokes on the court … beat from kitchen
- pro V7 -> swingweight 120ish, 8.4 oz feels like good wiffle plow through from baseline, best for baseline drives (significantly best) best for overheads (significantly best), feels too head heavy at kitchen once you get better at kitchen and firefights.
- Pro Flash 16mm -> swingweight 115ish, 8.2 oz feels light with less plow through from baseline, can hit fast baseline drives but from springy launch, lack of top control swinging out on return of serve, awesome for roll volleys and firefights at kitchen (best), the less head heavy balance really shows up in flicks, roll volleys, topspin, topspin lobs
- Pro Flash 14mm -> swingweight 110ish, 8.4. oz also feels light with less plow through from baseline even at 8.4 oz, drives without the “springy assist” (I find myself adding paddle lag for pace), good predictable control on return of serve which is why I bought 14mm and not a 2nd 16mm flash, also excellent for roll volleys and firefights at kitchen but would put 16mm first here, the less head heavy balance really shows up in flicks, roll volleys, topspin, topspin lobs (supposedly 14mm more spin and different texture than 16mm, but I seem to hit my topspin lobs equal with 16mm and 14mm, and both more than prism 16mm flash.

If I knew what I knew now, I think I would have bought a second 16mm pro flash instead of 14mm. The more control with 14mm on serves and returns is true, but it loses out on what ends up being more important to me (lightest paddle for flicks, roll volleys at kitchen). I prefer the 8.2 oz 16mm at the kitchen (really fun effortless point and shoot feeling). With 14mm, it needed more lead, 8.4-8.6oz for all court play, but then that defeats the faster hand thing at the kitchen.

So the paddle I want is:
- feels like prism flash 16mm
- 3000 rpm
- plays that way at 8.0-8.2oz, 115ish swingweight.

 

[ByeByePoly]

fyi … for anyone starting out selecting a paddle I would put sweet spot/forgiveness near the top of the list. Even if you come from tennis, you are most likely to use most of the face of the paddle … firefights from 14 feet, plastic balls, go out of round, low bounce, not nearly as predictable as tennis. This isn’t always the same thing as “softer” or “control paddle”. The gen 2 thermoformed paddles are stiffer paddles compared to gen 1 “sandwich” construction … but generally provide larger sweet spots and carry shot better hit near edges and throat even if they don’t feel better. The paddle reviewers are now starting to include “twist weight” and opinions about sweet spot size.

The “forgiveness factor” for me at the moment:

- I love the Vatic Pro Flash 14mm on days when I’m playing well. My guess is the 14mm weighted up has a higher level ceiling than it’s 16mm sibling. What I have found with pickleball is that I have much larger swings in consistency than I had with tennis. So on good days, I want the 14mm.

- On bad days I reach for the Vatic Prism Flash 16mm. Even on a bad day … Prism Flash is like instant control. But with paddles, you miss what you give up … in my case thermoformed baseline power and spin. For the most it’s the thermoformed spin that I miss the most. btw … the Prism spin is also very high, but you know the difference if you have played thermoformed.

So what I want:
- flash hybrid shaped
- thermoformed but with confidence and control of prism flash

The Vatic Pro Flash 16mm (springy) needs to have a baby with the Vatic Prism Flash 16mm. I played a couple of games with Six Zero Double Black Diamond and that might be the baby. I haven’t hit the Ruby yet. Perhaps Dayrl/Vatic will put a Kevlar face on Vatic Pro Flash 16mm for the baby.

 

[macguyvur]

ros (return of serve) is a habit I picked up from too much typing in tennis tips forum. I should spell it out here … and will.

bolded … agree and same, and for me also 2hbh cross court dink.

One of my problems with 1hbh dinking has been as a tennis player that hit a lot of 1hbh slice (baseline and some backspin on some 1hbh volleys). So I showed up in pickleball trying to slice most 1hbh dinks. Also high volleys at kitchen until it hit me that if a ball was high enough to hit flat or downward 1hbh slice than it was high enough to drive (yeah I felt stupid). So on dinks … tendency for too much slice and added wrist play. I obviously could just fix that on 1hbh dinks … and pretty much did on less slice unless there and easy dink … pretty much didn’t fix the too much wrist play (still shows up when stretched on 1hbh cross court dink). I watch the pros … and they hold that firm wrist position (sometimes with extension with wrist back to square up the paddle) … no wrist and all arm pendulum. Well … the 2hbh dink seemed to solve much of this for me … no slice, not wrist play (every now and then I might flip the hands for aggressive 2hbh cross court dink with a little topspin), and by definition the two arm swing is a simple pendulum.

So … basically have converted to 2hbh dink now … thinking 2hbh swing volley work in progress. I think transition zone 2hbh swing volley is by far the biggest gain … so that is the first up to bat.

btw … on backhand drives my mind from tennis thinks flat 1hbh low over the net (particularly down the line). If topspin drive … particularly cross court … I think 2hbh. If I’m on left/ad side and hitting cross court topspin drop I have already switched to 2hbh. For whatever reason I never think 1hbh slice 3rd shot drops … which is weird because I had a very good 1hbh tennis drop shot. Perhaps that variety should be added to the list. Once I’m in a competitive match I tend to default to same narrow habits.

I will throw this John Cincola video in here since I was talking about 2hbh cross court dinks. There are times on wide dinks where I need to go with 1hbh dink for reach. My thinking is (after watching video) … my go to dink not past my body/outside foot 2hbh cross court as much angle as desired, past my body/outside foot 1hbh dink to middle or straight over net. Obviously one’s shuffle step speed and range changes what is “past body/outside foot”.

Really starting to appreciate Cincola’s instruction videos. I was talking to one of our better players and he had also come to the same conclusion.

Seconded. He’s

 

[macguyvur]

fyi … for anyone starting out selecting a paddle I would put sweet spot/forgiveness near the top of the list. Even if you come from tennis, you are most likely to use most of the face of the paddle … firefights from 14 feet, plastic balls, go out of round, low bounce, not nearly as predictable as tennis. This isn’t always the same thing as “softer” or “control paddle”. The gen 2 thermoformed paddles are stiffer paddles compared to gen 1 “sandwich” construction … but generally provide larger sweet spots and carry shot better hit near edges and throat even if they don’t feel better. The paddle reviewers are now starting to include “twist weight” and opinions about sweet spot size.

The “forgiveness factor” for me at the moment:

- I love the Vatic Pro Flash 14mm on days when I’m playing well. My guess is the 14mm weighted up has a higher level ceiling than it’s 16mm sibling. What I have found with pickleball is that I have much larger swings in consistency than I had with tennis. So on good days, I want the 14mm.

- On bad days I reach for the Vatic Prism Flash 16mm. Even on a bad day … Prism Flash is like instant control. But with paddles, you miss what you give up … in my case thermoformed baseline power and spin. For the most it’s the thermoformed spin that I miss the most. btw … the Prism spin is also very high, but you know the difference if you have played thermoformed.

So what I want:
- flash hybrid shaped
- thermoformed but with confidence and control of prism flash

The Vatic Pro Flash 16mm (springy) needs to have a baby with the Vatic Prism Flash 16mm. I played a couple of games with Six Zero Double Black Diamond and that might be the baby. I haven’t hit the Ruby yet. Perhaps Dayrl/Vatic will put a Kevlar face on Vatic Pro Flash 16mm for the baby.

My new ruby just arrived today. Can’t wait to hit it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

My new ruby just arrived today. Can’t wait to hit it.

Congrats … love that new paddle smell. Since they are often sold out I bet you had to wait. I haven’t got to hit one yet … but I suspect I will get to because very popular. I did play a couple of games with DBD and really liked it.

I also will have a new paddle soon … the Vatic Pro Oni Flash. I couldn’t help myself … I wanted the limited edition Dragon.

 

[ByeByePoly]

paddle journey update:

Sold my Hurache X to a friend (I loved it, but wanted a little more spin) … went back to my Vatic Pro Flash 14mm (weighted to 8.5 oz 4,8,12) and was reminded how much I like it. I go through cycles (like taking a timeout to improve soft game) where I go back to the Prism Flash. I did that recently for a couple of weeks working on 3rd shot drops. It’s always a tradeoff between driving (the tennis player) and the soft game. I have noticed for me I can go away from the drives too much as I work through the power/soft game balance. Also …driving will always be more fun than dinking for this tennis player, so there is that.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Some random paddle thoughts at a year and a half:

Definitions:

power - full swings
pop - kitchen shorter strokes (blocks, counters, think 1hbh ping pong punch volley)
static weight - weight of paddle
swing weight - how heavy paddle feels to swing … two 8.0 oz static weight paddles can feel completely different depending on weight distribution (balance point, head light vs head heavy)

My current random thoughts/opinions:

- power matters more in singles, pop and control matters more in doubles (kitchen)
- players should match paddles to them, and not them to paddles
- it’s not just power players that can get assist with power
- I agree with paddle reviewers that swing weight is key, I disagree with their dismissal of static weight
- I think paddle spin from baseline and spin from kitchen (rolls, speedups) should be two different metrics. My thought is grit matters more at kitchen.
- feel isn’t necessarily the best metric to pick which paddle you will play best with
- 2hbh players look for 5.3” handles or longer

Longer explanations:

Power: Usually a player that hits topspin can better take advantage of the additional power. The court is short, and a hard flat shot tends to sail long. Related … many pros teach rec players 70% with dip is much more effective in doubles than 100% pace.

Pop: You are probably playing at a decent rec level if max pop helps you more than it hurts you.

My wife comes from tennis and hits pretty flat, but still benefits from her Vatic Pro Flash 16mm thermoformed power because her swing speed is less and her flat shots stay in and her overheads rock (an example of paddle matches player). I love her Pro Flash 16mm, but found the Pro Flash 14mm better matched my faster swing speed. Same with tennis racquets … I launched balls with her racquet, and she found mine to be lacking power. Obviously baseline strokes in pickleball is less of a factor than tennis, but still something someone might consider (I do).

So obviously matching paddle to your full swings involves swing weight … it was an important metric with grooved tennis strokes. But … I also cared about the racquet static weight. I didn’t like 12oz racquets … didn’t matter if it was 10 pts headlight. To me, swing weight is a measure of how it feels during the acceleration part of the swing. That doesn’t account for racquet/paddle movement/prep prior to swing. Lower swing weight didn’t help getting 12 oz racquet into tennis serve trophy position. To me there are even more examples, mainly at kitchen, where paddle static weight matters a lot. Think of all the times in a firefight where you have rapid hand/paddle movement to a different location … that is all static weight movement. I would say the typical 1hbh ping pong volley is more static weight than swing weight. On roll volleys and flicks, I stink it is both … static to place hand/paddle … swing weight during hit (not to the degree of baseline strokes).

Feel: Most tennis players that walk into a pro shop and pick up a light head light tennis racquet will think it feels great, but we learned that didn’t mean what we played best with. Same with strings … gut or multis felt great … and yet we played with poly strings for control and topspin and tennis elbow. I am noticing the same is true for paddles. The Hurache X carbon/fiberglass/carbon with 6 inch grip felt great to me … responsive, quick off the face. The Prism Flash, and to lesser extent Pro Flash 14 feels denser, less fast off paddle face … but the part that matters to me most for play is control and spin. Can I hit my spots on drives, and does spin come easily … is there a feeling of “grab”. I continue to want more grab and spin.

Anyway … some of my recent paddle thoughts. Those of us that came from tennis miss strings … no paddle will ever fix it. But at least … carbon and peel ply came along so we got some grab.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Got to hit the new Thrive Azul 16mm for a few minutes today. Good looking blue kevlar paddle. I expected my Vatic Pro Flash 14mm would feel stiffer, but Flash feels soft in comparison. Didn’t get to play points with it … if I do will post impressions here.

 

[macguyvur]

6.0 Ruby specs. Heavier than factory specs. Not sure how I feel about it, but let's see.

Stock without overgrip band
static weight: 235.5 g / 8.31 oz
Balance: 9.5" / 5.5 pt HH

Stock with overgrip Tourna Mega Tak, overgrip band, head tape
Static weight: 245.4 g / 8.66 oz
Balance: 9.375" / 5 pt HH

 

[ByeByePoly]

6.0 Ruby specs. Heavier than factory specs. Not sure how I feel about it, but let's see.

Stock without overgrip band
static weight: 235.5 g / 8.31 oz
Balance: 9.5" / 5.5 pt HH

Stock with overgrip Tourna Extra Tak, overgrip band, head tape
Static weight: 245.4 g / 8.66 oz
Balance: 9.375" / 5 pt HH

I think the extra weight has advantages as long as your hands are still fast enough at kitchen. Even at kitchen, blocks/hits seem to be better for me with some extra weight. I settled around 8.4 oz as a target static weight after experimentation with different paddles. But current Vatic Pro Flash 14mm is at 8.5 oz and good to go. I had it at 8.7 oz at one point and liked it. All a tradeoff with paddles … I would want 9.0+ oz on drives and overheads, but back off because of kitchen. I saw Connor Garnett talk about how he adds lead to paddle. Long strip all the way around the tip … 9.3 oz static weight. Opposite of what paddle reviewers suggest … and Garnett doesn’t look particularly strong. It’s funny … if you hold .5 oz in your hand, barely feel the weight.

Edit: A shout out to Daryl at Vatic Pro … if you order paddles from their website you can put desired static weight in a comment field. They do the best they can to match it … I have had multiple Vatic paddles arrive right at the 8.0 oz I requested. I weight it up from there.

 

[macguyvur]

I think the extra weight has advantages as long as your hands are still fast enough at kitchen. Even at kitchen, blocks/hits seem to be better for me with some extra weight. I settled around 8.4 oz as a target static weight after experimentation with different paddles. But current Vatic Pro Flash 14mm is at 8.5 oz and good to go. I had it at 8.7 oz at one point and liked it. All a tradeoff with paddles … I would want 9.0+ oz on drives and overheads, but back off because of kitchen. I saw Connor Garnett talk about how he adds lead to paddle. Long strip all the way around the tip … 9.3 oz static weight. Opposite of what paddle reviewers suggest … and Garnett doesn’t look particularly strong. It’s funny … if you hold .5 oz in your hand, barely feel the weight.

Very helpful. On the tennis court, I've swung 12.3 oz strung and dressed Prestige Pros for years and years, amazing stability and plenty of maneuverability for me. So let's see about 8.5 oz + for pickle. I can get this paddle down to 8.45oz without head tape and the overgrip band. I'll start with it at 8.6 and then go down to the bare minimum if necessary. Wish I had a bit more room for customization.

Edit: A shout out to Daryl at Vatic Pro … if you order paddles from their website you can put desired static weight in a comment field. They do the best they can to match it … I have had multiple Vatic paddles arrive right at the 8.0 oz I requested. I weight it up from there.

This is really good. I wish all would do this. I want to hit the Selkirk Vanguard Control. I've heard Selkirk QC is pretty shabby, and they don't advertise the service Vatic Pro does. I wonder if TW / TP's racquet dept does this for paddles they sell like the racquets. I always ordered racquets in matching sets.

I'm going to be at Wolverine Pickleball in Ann Arbor in a couple of weeks to try to get my mid-70s parents into pickle, and they have Selkirks to demo, so I'll see if I can hit a Vanguard Control. Wish there were easy demos here in Chicago.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Very helpful. On the tennis court, I've swung 12.3 oz strung and dressed Prestige Pros for years and years, amazing stability and plenty of maneuverability for me. So let's see about 8.5 oz + for pickle. I can get this paddle down to 8.45oz without head tape and the overgrip band. I'll start with it at 8.6 and then go down to the bare minimum if necessary. Wish I had a bit more room for customization.


This is really good. I wish all would do this. I want to hit the Selkirk Vanguard Control. I've heard Selkirk QC is pretty shabby, and they don't advertise the service Vatic Pro does. I wonder if TW / TP's racquet dept does this for paddles they sell like the racquets. I always ordered racquets in matching sets.

I'm going to be at Wolverine Pickleball in Ann Arbor in a couple of weeks to try to get my mid-70s parents into pickle, and they have Selkirks to demo, so I'll see if I can hit a Vanguard Control. Wish there were easy demos here in Chicago.

My guess is anyone that liked 12.3 oz racquets has no worries with 8.6 oz paddle (my max was 11.5 oz). That said … we don’t always get body rotation assist in pickleball. I think the worst offender is the 1hbh ping pong punch volley at the kitchen. I heard the PPA commentator Dave Flemming the other day talking about coming to pickleball from tennis … “the 1hbh volley at the kitchen is just weird”. I couldn’t agree more … and would add the bending/reaching forward at the kitchen line.

I always figure weight from the overgrip isn’t hurting much and I couldn’t go without it. I probably change at least once a month … seems to add around .2 oz. I always add electrical tape or edge tape someone locally sells. I could get by with just the top corners where it can get scuffed up from hitting court surface.

It’s very frustrating not being able to easily demo paddles. For the most part I have to get lucky at open play hitting someone’s paddle, and that is just a brief hit. Our Lifetime did get all the 3G Joolas … first time I know of that they got demos. I don’t buy $280 paddles … instead I buy 10 $140 paddles.

 

[sureshs]

@ByeByePoly Are you following all the controversy about Gen 3 foam-filled paddles?

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly Are you following all the controversy about Gen 3 foam-filled paddles?

yes sir … and I have one of those Gen 3 foamed weapons on the way.

 

[sureshs]

yes sir … and I have one of those Gen 3 foamed weapons on the way.

Be careful. The foam seems to be breaking in some paddle tests. And the paddles may not pass USAP tests in the future if they are too powerful.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Be careful. The foam seems to be breaking in some paddle tests. And the paddles may not pass USAP tests in the future if they are too powerful.

I will only bodybag friends and others that deserve it.

I bought the Vatic Oni Flash ... the spatula. Joolas are the diving board, and Gearbox the poly chicken wire.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly Are you following all the controversy about Gen 3 foam-filled paddles?

I had commented above that I briefly hit one of the new 3 G Joolas (Hyperion) and didn’t really like how it felt or see what the hype was about. Hit another 3 G Hyperion today that must have been broken in … and uh oh … we are going to want that feel or something similar.

My guess is there will be a lot of initial 3 G failures … like all the early 2nd gen thermoformed delamination/core crushing. But pretty much got past the 2nd gen issues, at least to the point where the thermoformed tech survived. I hope we come out of the 3 G cycle which leaves “boardy” behind. I think the USAPA needs to change the paddle rules (officially rather than paddle companies getting around it) to allow for some “trampoline”. Police the power (deflection) to some standard, but don’t police the tech. Keep paddles power at some safe standard, but bring in a lot more spin.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Vatic Dragon arrives today … the training begins … hunting to follow

Dracarys … bodybag … let’s eat

 

[ByeByePoly]

Oni Flash 16mm day one (before expected break in)

8 oz with over grip, no added lead weight … about an hour, serves, returns, drives, drops, dinks, no games

- more powerful at 8 oz than my Vatic Pro 14 mm at 8.5 oz with 3g at 3,9,12 … more easy pace on serve … no problem keeping in flat or with topspin
- didn’t have any major control or sweet spot issues
- felt moderately stiff on drives, more stiff on drops/dinks … similar to Vatic Pro Flashes before I added lead. I expect feel to soften with break in, or if I added weight up to my usual 8.4-8.5oz
- different sound than Vatic Pro Flashes, I think louder but not pingy loud
- topspin seemed similar to VP 14 mm, which is a very high spin paddle. Going to require some adjustment with matching swing speed with intended topspin trajectory
- I didn’t feel much trampoline like my few hits with Joola Gen 3 Hyperion … I hope for some with break in
- low drive 1hbh slice return of serve drive … whoa … that is best I have hit that shot with any paddle … effortless. Don’t care about all the current pros nonsense being said about assisting with your opponent’s topspin, I will use 1hbh slice return of serve even more with this paddle (unless something changed with control after break in).
- ball debris all over face of paddle, like my Vatic Prism Flash 16 mm. The Vatic Prism Pros (14 mm and 16 mm) don’t collect as much. All I need is a dry microfiber cloth with Vatic Pros, a wet microfiber cloth for Prism and Oni. Which … shows big topspin doesn’t always require max grit … Vatic Pro Flash 14 mm pretty smooth to touch but max spin
- not sure when and if I will experiment with added weight … probably since an expected change of play with break in I will play several sessions first.
- On day one, not dangerous power imo … we will see after break in

Suppose to play two more times this week, will post thoughts.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Oni Flash 16mm day two

Decided to go ahead and weight Oni to my usual setup

Setup:
- orig static weight 7.9ish oz, guessing 115ish swing weight based on Vatic specs
- over grip … 8.0 oz
- 3g lead at 3 and 9 … 8.3 oz … close enough to my usual 8.4-8.5 oz

Note: I had swing weight room to work with so put lead at 3,9 instead of 4,8.

- felt more plush/less stiff with this setup, really like this less boardy feel on drives
- to me what I hope for with paddle tech improvement… feel, dwell time, trampoline … gen 3 is a move in that direction
- still wasn’t launching many serves or returns, did send some flicks long
- overheads … whoa … have a good overhead and that is the most overhead pace for me so far … noticeably more than with my Vatic Pro V7 which I thought was fast
- sweet spot still feels good to me … some paddle reviewers thought a little less than gen 2 thermoformed but I haven’t noticed it so far
- topspin … obviously very high but still working out swing speed and trajectory. It is very nice being able to hit good pace without having to swing your max … I liked this in tennis … hit good pace with controlled 70% swings

Dragon cleaning required wet microfiber cloth again. This time I didn’t need to do it to hide my contact pattern … good tight pattern today.

3rd hit in two days … will post.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Oni Flash 16mm day three

3 hours today, so 6-7 hours total

Dragon got hotter this session … launched some serves and firefight reflex volleys. Drops, dinks resets still fine … and like solid feel of drives and prefer it over my brief hits with Joola Gen 3 Hyperion and Gearbox PPE.

There will be an upside to easy pace without having to swing at max “if” it becomes a low error dragon. Time will tell.

I removed the 3g at 3 and 9 getting back to 8.1 oz for first half of session, and put back on (8.3 oz) 2nd half. Both setups would work … but will be keeping it at 8.3 oz.