Vegetarian tennis juniors

[sureshs]

Pretty good advice, and not necessarily for tennis.
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http://tennisworld.typepad.com/the_healthy_player/2009/10/mailbag-protein-for-vegetarians.html

My daughter is 14 years old and plays competitive tennis. We are vegetarians and do not eat meat or fish (eggs are OK but not preferred). We do eat different kinds of legumes, beans, vegetables and fruits as part of our daily diet. What is the best source of protein for my daughter on a daily basis and also on match days? Thanks and Regards.—Sundara Vardhan

This is a great question, especially since it’s been reported that vegetarianism among adolescents seems to be on the rise. If you’re looking for the single best source of protein for a vegetarian, then Lisa Dorfman, director of sports nutrition and performance at the University of Miami and author of the Vegetarian Sports Nutrition Guide, has one word for you: soy.

“When you’re a vegetarian, you have to look for alternative sources of protein that have all the essential parts of protein, including amino acids,” Dorfman says. “All animal proteins have all the amino acids. Plant-based proteins don’t, except for soy.” So when you can, opt for soy protein (there's tons of soy on the market now, from soy milk to cheese to vegetarian products from brands like Yves, Gimme Lean and Primal Sticks) to make sure you're getting all the essentials to build your muscles and help you recover after workouts. Dorfman also recommends lean sources of protein, like beans, lentils and low-fat dairy products, over higher fat options, like cheese and eggs.

No matter how you get your protein, the most important time to make sure you're eating enough of it is during training. “In a way, training is a lot harder on the body than game day because you’re doing a lot of different things, from strength training to footwork,” she says. Depending on your weight, Dorfman recommends eating 50–60 grams of protein a day during training, and cutting back in the 48 hours before competition to 30–40 grams a day so you’ll have extra room for carbs.

Here are her recommendations for a sample training day, along with lots of water:

Breakfast: Egg Beaters with toast

Lunch: Subway veggie sub

Snack: protein bar or shake

Dinner: pasta with vegetarian meatballs

 

[Cindysphinx]

Here are her recommendations for a sample training day, along with lots of water:

Breakfast: Egg Beaters with toast

Lunch: Subway veggie sub

Snack: protein bar or shake

Dinner: pasta with vegetarian meatballs

Bless her heart, but why would anyone recommend a fast food establishment for veggie fare? Geez, get a whole wheat roll, slap some cheese and veggies on it and call it a day. The smell of all of that processed Subway meat will kill your appetite for sure. Blech.

And if you want eggs for breakfast, crack some eggs fer cryin' out loud. No need to pour them out of a Con Agra container. Here's what Egg Beaters contain: Egg whites, Color Includes, (Beta Carotene), Spice, Salt, Onion(s) Powder, Vegetable Gum (Xanthan Gum, Guar Gum), Vitamins And Minerals, Calcium Sulphate (Sulfate), Iron (Ferric Phosphate), Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol (Tocopheryl) Acetate), Zinc Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12, Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin), Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (HCL)), Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin D3

Protein bar? How about a mozzarella stick and an apple?

I'm not a big fan of processed or fast foods when good alternatives exist, can you tell?

 

[sureshs]

I ordered egg beater scrambled eggs at a Marriott once because of cholesterol issues. I had to throw it away. Tasteless.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Whey protein in addition to egg, milk and veggie protein sources is a good idea. Chickpeas and ground flax seed (not flaxseed oil) should also help. Spirulina is also a very decent source of amino acids.
.

 

[LuckyR]

Being a vegetarian nowadays with all of the fake meat products is pretty easy to do. There are no end of protein containing meals specifically designed for vegetarians.

 

[r2473]

Bless her heart, but why would anyone recommend a fast food establishment for veggie fare? Geez, get a whole wheat roll, slap some cheese and veggies on it and call it a day. The smell of all of that processed Subway meat will kill your appetite for sure. Blech.

And if you want eggs for breakfast, crack some eggs fer cryin' out loud. No need to pour them out of a Con Agra container.

Protein bar? How about a mozzarella stick and an apple?

I was laughing at the same thing. She is definitely addressing this to a certain audience.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Being a vegetarian nowadays with all of the fake meat products is pretty easy to do. There are no end of protein containing meals specifically designed for vegetarians.

True.

I've found that being vegetarian (I eat fish too, though) certainly requires that you go to good eateries. A restaurant that has middling food for omnivores will have garbage for vegetarians. A really great restaurant will have great food for everyone, and the vegetarian offerings can even be better than anything else.

The other place I've found it really pays to be a vegetarian is at rubber chicken events. Everyone else gets bland looking chicken, and I get this elegant plate of puff pastry filled with amazing vegetables and other cool things.

Cindy -- not looking forward to the Las Vegas buffets this weekend

 

[WildVolley]

Are there any professional tennis players in the top 500 who are vegetarians?

It is much easier to eat a non-vegetarian performance diet. I've never seen credible evidence that the supposed health benefits of vegetarianism can't be more easily obtained just by adding vegetables and fruits to a diet that includes meat.

Unless the vegetarianism is done for religious reasons, this would seem the sensible course for a serious athlete.

 

[borg number one]

I faced this same problem being a junior tennis player and a pure vegetarian. Being vegetarian has GREAT health benefits. I simply made sure I got enough protein from alternative sources: chick peas, cheese, whey protein (protein shakes), etc. Soy protein tends to interfere with iron absorption per my wife who is a doctor. It's not too difficult to get enough protein and you avoid all the JUNK that is in meat, like saturated fat, etc., etc,etc....Nevermind the ethics/health/religious reasons as well.

When I graduated from high school I was only 6 feet tall, and about 150 pounds, as I had not fully matured. I played National tournaments as a junior, and made a DIV1 college team (UT), and played some pro satellite tournaments before devoting myself fully to school/career. I have no doubt that if I wanted too, I would have become a pro player at least ranked in the hundreds somewhere.

I have seen NO EVIDENCE that being vegetarian hurts an athlete in any way. You'd be surprised to know some folks that eat absolutely NO RED MEAT. See: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=387612803&blogId=508937796

In college, I kept adding strength and kept the fat off, unlike my peers. I am now 41, 6 feet tall and 165 lbs, with very low body fat and extremely low cholesterol levels (per my doctor who confirmed that she had never seen someone with such low cholesterol).

I've run 5 marathons and am as quick as ever, plus I have great stamina. I have aged well and the number one reason is that I am pure vegetarian. Typically, folks that eat a lot of meat also pack on the pounds and fat as they age into their 30's and beyond, I'm sorry to say.

Plus, I have kept up my exercise routine, including calisthenics with moderate weights and strength training as well.

 

[El Diablo]

A nutritional consultant who mentions two brand names (Egg Beaters and Subway) in the space of a few sentences is not someone to be trusted.

 

[WildVolley]

In college, I kept adding strength and kept the fat off, unlike my peers. I am now 41, 6 feet tall and 165 lbs, with very low body fat and extremely low cholesterol levels (per my doctor who confirmed that she had never seen someone with such low cholesterol).

You might want to have that very low cholesterol checked. Low cholesterol in a number of studies has been shown to correlate with a greater risk of early death than high cholesterol.

 

[T Woody]

It's not too difficult to get enough protein and you avoid all the JUNK that is in meat, like saturated fat

I'd be very interested if you'd provide me with peer reviewed research that saturated fat is bad for you. Most people cite conventional wisdom more than anything else.

Typically, folks that eat a lot of meat also pack on the pounds and fat as they age into their 30's and beyond, I'm sorry to say.

I know this is an offhand comment, but it's quite vague and subjective.

A teenager (especially male) should be consuming high amounts of casein and whey protein, not soy. Soy is possibly the least optimal protein for growing adolescents and performance athletes. Soy absorption per gram consumed is very low compared to other proteins. As well, soy contains lectins and protease inhbitors, "antinutrients" which block the absorption of vital nutrients. Soy is also rich in estrogenic compounds, which essentially cause an big change in the testosterone/estrogen levels, not a good thing for a growing adolescent male.

 

[borg number one]

Really, what is your source for that information and it seems that my doctor would have been somewhat concerned don't you think?


http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/chol/wyntk.htm (high blood cholesterol)

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cholesterol-level/AN01394
(low cholesterol)-these studies are probably what you are referring to....

Any risks associated with low cholesterol, as long as it is reasonable pale in comparison to the risks associated with high cholesterol WildVolley.

I'm sure the Beef Industry would LOVE to scare people about the supposed "dangers" of having low cholesterol though and talk about how everyone needs a lot of beef, etc..

 

[borg number one]

I agree, see my post T Woody, Whey Protein is better than Soy protein for many reasons.

 

[borg number one]

T Woody, see references 7-28 in the wikipedia link on saturated fat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat

 

[WildVolley]

Really, what is your source for that information and it seems that my doctor would have been somewhat concerned don't you think?

I've been aware of this relation for a long time, though I'm not sure where I first heard about it - strange that your doctor isn't. A google search will bring up a lot of articles about it.

Here's an example of a site talking about it with an associated graph. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/07/mrfit-mortality.html

The question of cholesterol levels and disease isn't settled for high or for low cholesterol levels. But it is known that low cholesterol is associated with higher mortality rates much like high cholesterol levels, and that's why I'd ask your doctor about your extraordinary low levels. The question is whether disease is causing the low cholesterol level or the low cholesterol level is causing the associated diseases like stroke and cancer.

Also, I'm not much of a believer in the claim that saturated fats lead to high cholesterol levels. I've eaten a diet high in saturated animal fats and I have normal cholesterol levels with higher than normal HDL level. Many other people are reporting similar results. I do, however, make an effort to eat a diet rich in vegetables and fruit, and low in simple carbs.

In my opinion high triglycerides are a problem not high cholesterol. Eating too many carbs and trans-fats is the problem, not saturated animal fats. I'll stick with my butter and cream.

 

[sureshs]

Are there any professional tennis players in the top 500 who are vegetarians?

It is much easier to eat a non-vegetarian performance diet. I've never seen credible evidence that the supposed health benefits of vegetarianism can't be more easily obtained just by adding vegetables and fruits to a diet that includes meat.

Unless the vegetarianism is done for religious reasons, this would seem the sensible course for a serious athlete.

I would wager that most athletes eat meat.

The problem with meat, as with everything else, is if you overdo it. Whereas it is difficult and probably harmless to eat too much veggy food, it is quite easy to overindulge on meat.

I have now seen many science channel programs which confirm that meat eating led to the modern human and expanded brain. The hominid lines which did not eat meat became extinct.

 

[sureshs]

Bless her heart, but why would anyone recommend a fast food establishment for veggie fare? Geez, get a whole wheat roll, slap some cheese and veggies on it and call it a day. The smell of all of that processed Subway meat will kill your appetite for sure. Blech.

And if you want eggs for breakfast, crack some eggs fer cryin' out loud. No need to pour them out of a Con Agra container. Here's what Egg Beaters contain: Egg whites, Color Includes, (Beta Carotene), Spice, Salt, Onion(s) Powder, Vegetable Gum (Xanthan Gum, Guar Gum), Vitamins And Minerals, Calcium Sulphate (Sulfate), Iron (Ferric Phosphate), Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol (Tocopheryl) Acetate), Zinc Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12, Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin), Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (HCL)), Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin D3

Protein bar? How about a mozzarella stick and an apple?

I'm not a big fan of processed or fast foods when good alternatives exist, can you tell?

What is wrong with Subway? I think the author's suggestion was to provide a quick meal for a family with busy children.

 

[sureshs]

I faced this same problem being a junior tennis player and a pure vegetarian. Being vegetarian has GREAT health benefits. I simply made sure I got enough protein from alternative sources: chick peas, cheese, whey protein (protein shakes), etc. Soy protein tends to interfere with iron absorption per my wife who is a doctor. It's not too difficult to get enough protein and you avoid all the JUNK that is in meat, like saturated fat, etc., etc,etc....Nevermind the ethics/health/religious reasons as well.

When I graduated from high school I was only 6 feet tall, and about 150 pounds, as I had not fully matured. I played National tournaments as a junior, and made a DIV1 college team (UT), and played some pro satellite tournaments before devoting myself fully to school/career. I have no doubt that if I wanted too, I would have become a pro player at least ranked in the hundreds somewhere.

I have seen NO EVIDENCE that being vegetarian hurts an athlete in any way. You'd be surprised to know some folks that eat absolutely NO RED MEAT. See: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=387612803&blogId=508937796

In college, I kept adding strength and kept the fat off, unlike my peers. I am now 41, 6 feet tall and 165 lbs, with very low body fat and extremely low cholesterol levels (per my doctor who confirmed that she had never seen someone with such low cholesterol).

I've run 5 marathons and am as quick as ever, plus I have great stamina. I have aged well and the number one reason is that I am pure vegetarian. Typically, folks that eat a lot of meat also pack on the pounds and fat as they age into their 30's and beyond, I'm sorry to say.

Plus, I have kept up my exercise routine, including calisthenics with moderate weights and strength training as well.

That is some achievement. Your ethnicity puts you in the higher cholesterol range, yet you managed to fight the odds. I myself have controlled my cholesterol and don't take any meds for it. But I am nowhere as fit as you.

 

[borg number one]

Thanks a lot Sureshs, I appreciate that. Believe me, it hasn't been easy, as I've worked to combine diet and exercise, plus staying away from lots of oil, sugar (desserts) and "empty calories", plus I don't drink alcohol really, except a beer very rarely say a few every 6 months or so. That's another thing, if you drink a lot of alcohol, plus eat a lot of meat, plus a lot of sugar, plus few vegetables/fruits, that's a formula for a ton of health problems, a shorter life, and much lower quality of life. Sorry if I sound "preachy" at all, but I try to tell all my friends about some of the things that have really helped me sustain good health/fitness.

 

[ollinger]

The most comprehensive data on low choleterol levels were from the well-known Framingham Study. The Study showed that LOW cholesterol levels under age 50 were associated with IMPROVED longevity. Over age 50, LOW cholesterol levels were associated with DECREASED longevity, probably as a result of illnesses that had already developed and predisposed to low cholesterol (diseases causing decreased oral intake, diseases causing malabsorption.....)

 

[Cindysphinx]

What is wrong with Subway? I think the author's suggestion was to provide a quick meal for a family with busy children.

What is wrong with Subway?

Subway has managed a successful marketing campaign to position itself as a healthy alternative. Compared to competitors like McDonalds, perhaps this is so.

Still, they tend to sell a lot of white bread and sugared drinks and chips. They are also a big corporation, and I prefer to see my food dollars go to local businesses and toward locally grown produce and other foods.

If you are busy, you can drop by the supermarket and buy lettuce, cheese, tomatoes, and a whole wheat bun and it will be cheaper and better for you and for local commerce.

 

[WildVolley]

The most comprehensive data on low choleterol levels were from the well-known Framingham Study. The Study showed that LOW cholesterol levels under age 50 were associated with IMPROVED longevity. Over age 50, LOW cholesterol levels were associated with DECREASED longevity, probably as a result of illnesses that had already developed and predisposed to low cholesterol (diseases causing decreased oral intake, diseases causing malabsorption.....)

I didn't know that, but the Framingham study also showed that higher consumption of saturated animal fat was associated with lower cholesterol levels, which seems to shoot a hole in the lipid hypothesis.

Also, the followup to Framingham showed that high cholesterol levels after the age of 47 were not associated with increased risk of heart disease.

 

[LuckyR]

True.

I've found that being vegetarian (I eat fish too, though) certainly requires that you go to good eateries. A restaurant that has middling food for omnivores will have garbage for vegetarians. A really great restaurant will have great food for everyone, and the vegetarian offerings can even be better than anything else.

The other place I've found it really pays to be a vegetarian is at rubber chicken events. Everyone else gets bland looking chicken, and I get this elegant plate of puff pastry filled with amazing vegetables and other cool things.

Cindy -- not looking forward to the Las Vegas buffets this weekend

Two truisms. The great thing is at a true foodie place, even if there is nothing on the menu that is vegetarian, if you ask the waitstaff to "have the chef make something nice for me", my wife has never been disappointed at what is in essence a "special" off of the menu at a rock bottom price.

 

[Cindysphinx]

BorgNumberOne,

In addition to the compelling reasons you cite to give up meat, please add "environmental concerns." Anyone who is interested can google the environmental impact of raising beef, chicken, turkey and pork. It's really quite startling stuff.

I wound up giving up these foods 18 months ago when teen daughter came home from her environmental science class announcing that she would no longer eat these things for environmental, political and ethical reasons. Middle child said "Me too." Youngest never liked meat anyway. Rather than making two dinners every night, I decided to give it a go.

My cholesterol plunged from 239 to 189 in about 8 months with no other lifestyle changes. During my physical, my doc started flipping through my chart to see what statin he had put me on, and he was surprised to see I had achieved that result simply by giving up meat. I am thrilled to be statin-free, and I think this new way of eating gets the credit.

My cooking has morphed into an emphasis on Indian cooking, seafood, pasta, Mexican for the most part. You'd be amazed how much awesome tasting food there is out there that doesn't have meat. As a lifelong meat eater, I never would have believed it.

Cindy -- who makes a mean kidney bean curry over coconut rice

 

[WildVolley]

My cooking has morphed into an emphasis on Indian cooking, seafood, pasta, Mexican for the most part. You'd be amazed how much awesome tasting food there is out there that doesn't have meat. As a lifelong meat eater, I never would have believed it.

Cindy -- who makes a mean kidney bean curry over coconut rice

There definitely is good tasting vegetarian food, but nothing will replace a rare prime rib-eye steak, barbecued brisket, fresh salmon, wild grouse, fresh venison, or bacon. If God didn't want me to eat animals, why did he make them so tasty?:twisted:

And, as noted above, higher consumption of saturated animal fat is associated with lower cholesterol levels. I'm a fan of olive oil, but butter, lard, and beef tallow makes cooking taste better.

 

[Cindysphinx]

There definitely is good tasting vegetarian food, but nothing will replace a rare prime rib-eye steak, barbecued brisket, fresh salmon, wild grouse, fresh venison, or bacon. If God didn't want me to eat animals, why did he make them so tasty?:twisted:

And, as noted above, higher consumption of saturated animal fat is associated with lower cholesterol levels. I'm a fan of olive oil, but butter, lard, and beef tallow makes cooking taste better.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe this based on what I have read and based on my own experience. I think it is pretty obvious that eating a diet high in saturated animal fat is bad for you in many ways, including increased cancer risk.

As far as whether meat tastes better . . . I used to think so also. I never would have believed otherwise until I tried it.

Still, I see no need to preach or convert anyone. I used to think that vegetarians were scrawny people who lived a life of culinary deprivation. Now I have learned otherwise. If that helps someone take the plunge, great. If not, it's all good.

Cindy -- who now prefers things like kalamata olives and outrageous cheeses, but who admits that the worst thing about being vegetarian is the endless chopping

 

[Sangria Munky]

a trip to the pork slaughter house for free!

 

[borg number one]

Cindysphinx, I think that is awesome! I really do. Keep up your new diet as it will be great for you and your children. Your point is a VERY good one. Meat production does create a very large environmental impact.
See:http://www.goveg.com/environment.asp

For example, the salmonella found in vegetables is caused by, you guessed it, fecal matter runoff from nearby meat production farms.

Yes, there is a huge environmental impact from the meat industry.

Since many always talk about how "tasty" meat is, I want to respond to that very common opinion.

I don't want to get too gross, and I'm not trying to have this thread "go sideways" away from the OP's initial question, but I like to ask my close, new, meat-eating friends the following questions to think about as to eating meat vs. being pure vegetarian (I do this if they try to keep asking "why don't you just eat meat"):

1. Why do people feel it's okay to slaughter certain animals and not others? (horses, dolphins, whales, dogs, cats, etc.. are all taboo for many especially in the USA, but cows, pigs, lamb,etc..are "a ok". By the way, horse slaughter is actually alive and well in some parts of the U.S.)

2. Some Americans tease Indian vegetarians for "worshipping cows" (very ignorant) and not eating beef especially, and then they are horrified by Orientals who eat say, dog meat...No consistency! No consistent logic! Do some animals just "look too pretty to slaughter?

3. As far as "taste", I like to pose the following "logical quandary" (meat eaters, you have been warned, you may not want to read the example below):

It has been written that "human flesh" (I know it's gross, and I don't mean to offend you Wildvolley and others..) is supposedly "tasty" actually, per those that have actually consumed it and compared it to other animal meat. Of course cannibalism is a major "taboo" in almost all parts of the world now, for very good reason.

Well, if you took a adventurous eater from say one of those weird food eating shows and had him travel to a far away country, and prepared a "delicacy" in that country prepared with human flesh, covered with vegetables, spices, etc..and told that person it was just some animal they slaughter, well, what would happen???

The adventurous eater would eat the dish, and "find it quite tasty" and ask, well, what animal is this exactly???

He wouldn't know the difference would he? He WOULD NOT be able to differentiate the "meat" being consumed. Makes you think doesn't it? At the base level, "meat" that is consumed is just not fundamentally different than the absolute taboo dish I described above. Sorry, I know the thought of eating such "flesh" is very offensive, but for many vegetarians, what human beings do to animals is truly offensive and despicable. Having said that, I understand that once you have a certain diet and tastes as far as food, it can be EXTREMELY difficult to change your diet. Note that about 99% of the meat consumed in the U.S. comes from "factory farms" and just 1 hamburger can have meat from several different slaughterhouses literally from several different states. There is rampant food poisoning caused by the consumption of meat. I have never had such a "stomach upset" in my entire life, not one time, ever.

 

[borg number one]

Sangria Munky, that's a good point. If people had to actually watch the entire process, many opinions and diets would change. It's easy to "distance oneself" and feel purposefully "naive" as to exactly what happens at slaughterhouses.

 

[sureshs]

BorgNumberOne,

In addition to the compelling reasons you cite to give up meat, please add "environmental concerns." Anyone who is interested can google the environmental impact of raising beef, chicken, turkey and pork. It's really quite startling stuff.

I wound up giving up these foods 18 months ago when teen daughter came home from her environmental science class announcing that she would no longer eat these things for environmental, political and ethical reasons. Middle child said "Me too." Youngest never liked meat anyway. Rather than making two dinners every night, I decided to give it a go.

My cholesterol plunged from 239 to 189 in about 8 months with no other lifestyle changes. During my physical, my doc started flipping through my chart to see what statin he had put me on, and he was surprised to see I had achieved that result simply by giving up meat. I am thrilled to be statin-free, and I think this new way of eating gets the credit.

My cooking has morphed into an emphasis on Indian cooking, seafood, pasta, Mexican for the most part. You'd be amazed how much awesome tasting food there is out there that doesn't have meat. As a lifelong meat eater, I never would have believed it.

Cindy -- who makes a mean kidney bean curry over coconut rice

Be careful with the kids though. They need a lot of protein in the growing years.

 

[borg number one]

Very true Sureshs..good point. Protein, especially in the growing years is very important. You should monitor daily intake in terms of grams and consider a whey protein shake in the morning. I have one every morning, with milk and a banana, using a blender. My mother started me on protein shakes when I was about 15 (smart lady!).

GNC has an excellent whey protein formula in different flavors (vanilla is my favorite). Just that one serving gets you about 21g of protein, plus you have the milk as well. It's pretty filling.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Be careful with the kids though. They need a lot of protein in the growing years.

Relative to body weight this is very true. However, total protein intake for kids is somewhat less than adults.

http://www.annecollins.com/dieting/protein-rda.htm
http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/protein-requirement.php

According to Ano & others in the know, Optimum Nutrition makes some of the best whey protein powders. For a decent whey product that is very reasonably priced I'll go with NOW (Foods) products:

NutritionalCenter.com/site/en/search/whey+isolate/product/0

NOW also makes an unflavored whey protein isolate product which is my own preference. This product includes no sugar and almost no other carbs or fats (unlike flavored products). Therefore a serving size is about 40% less.

NowFoods.com/Products/ProductsbyCategory/Category/M002795.htm

.

 

[sureshs]

Very true Sureshs..good point. Protein, especially in the growing years is very important. You should monitor daily intake in terms of grams and consider a whey protein shake in the morning. I have one every morning, with milk and a banana, using a blender. My mother started me on protein shakes when I was about 15 (smart lady!).

GNC has an excellent whey protein formula in different flavors (vanilla is my favorite). Just that one serving gets you about 21g of protein, plus you have the milk as well. It's pretty filling.

My son has been having protein shakes for years now. I don't recall which one but I think it is from GNC - my wife takes care of these things.

 

[borg number one]

Great Sureshs, yes my wife does that for me now in the mornings, or of course sometimes I make them as well (for her too). Those protein shakes will really help your son.

 

[Kevin T]

As long as the diet is well-balanced, even vegetarians shouldn't need protein supplements. The average American has no problem with protein intake. Your average 14yo boy only needs 55g of protein/day.

http://www.rd411.com/tkcenter/article.php?ID=fyp-1-2_K-0512

Just increase ~50% or so if your youngster is a competitive athlete.

 

[LuckyR]

Interesting article that theorizes that it was cooking that lifted proto-humans above the animals way back when. To summarize the theory goes like this: the length of the bowel for animals is much, much longer than for humans (to extract the nutrients from raw food). By switching to cooked food after the discover of fire, nutrients were much more accessible, thereby selecting for shorter bowel lengths which freed up more blood flow to go to the brain --> smarter proto-humans --> more cooked cuisine --> modern man.

Interesting modern experiment. Chimps given the choice of cooked vs raw versions of their routine diet choose cooked, taste-wise.

 

[Kevin T]

Interesting article that theorizes that it was cooking that lifted proto-humans above the animals way back when. To summarize the theory goes like this: the length of the bowel for animals is much, much longer than for humans (to extract the nutrients from raw food). By switching to cooked food after the discover of fire, nutrients were much more accessible, thereby selecting for shorter bowel lengths which freed up more blood flow to go to the brain --> smarter proto-humans --> more cooked cuisine --> modern man.

Interesting modern experiment. Chimps given the choice of cooked vs raw versions of their routine diet choose cooked, taste-wise.

Mmmhmm. You forgot to add the regression to the raw food diet, as espoused by the Hollywood elite.

 

[T Woody]

Interesting article that theorizes that it was cooking that lifted proto-humans above the animals way back when. To summarize the theory goes like this: the length of the bowel for animals is much, much longer than for humans (to extract the nutrients from raw food). By switching to cooked food after the discover of fire, nutrients were much more accessible, thereby selecting for shorter bowel lengths which freed up more blood flow to go to the brain --> smarter proto-humans --> more cooked cuisine --> modern man.

Interesting modern experiment. Chimps given the choice of cooked vs raw versions of their routine diet choose cooked, taste-wise.

It's called the expensive tissue hypothesis, and this is a fabulous blog post that details the studies surrounding it.

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-library/are-we-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-part-ii/

Our ancestors' preference for calorie dense food like animal meat enabled our brains to grow larger and guts to shrink while maintaining the same metabolic rate. Had we eschewed meat and continued to live off the pounds and pounds of vegetation necessary to sustain us, our brains would not have grown and guts would have remained the same, similar to apes and cows. Thoughts?

 

[borg number one]

TWoody, while there is great debate as to some of the benefits of meat eating by "our early ancestors", let's agree that human beings continue to evolve and adapt to the environment in terms of nutrition and survival.

So, using that reasoning, the focus should be, "what is the best diet for us today", shouldn't it?

When answering that question, one should consider many factors such as health (longevity of life and quality of life), ethics, spirituality/religion, the environment, and overall "social costs" such as health care expenses, etc.

See some weblinks meat, human evolution and cultural anthropology:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0218_050218_human_diet_2.html

http://www.ecologos.org/meat-eating.htm

http://www.naturalhub.com/natural_food_guide_meat.htm

For a myriad of reasons, we can have a very healthy diet that does not contain meat. That is a proven fact that many health experts do not dispute. Not eating meat has so many benefits, with no downside. What is the downside?

We are no longer just "hunter-gatherers", primarily eating small animals (not large ones). So, the focus must be what's the best diet for us today in the here and now, even if there were some benefits (though arguable) created by meat-eating, especially since human animals had to stave off extinction at the hands of other animals. It's no longer a kill or be killed world for us human beings.

 

[sureshs]

I had mentioned the meat-eating and human evolution link as an aside. Now that we (or some of us) have already evolved, it does not matter much now, or at least what we can think of now. The early hominids like Ardipithecus had an opposable toe (like our thumb) to help in grasping while climbing, but trees are not our main habitat now.

 

[sureshs]

For a myriad of reasons, we can have a very healthy diet that does not contain meat. That is a proven fact that many health experts do not dispute. Not eating meat has so many benefits, with no downside. What is the downside?

Following are the perceived downsides, from the point of view of meat eaters:

Getting complete amino acids to build proteins requires extra effort, like eating soy/whey etc. Meat supplies complete amino acids.

Traditional cultures had developed a way of ingesting all the complete amino acids from different foods within a 24 to 48 hour window where they are effective. It required a great variety in each day's cooking and handing down of traditional recipes. This is not feasible in today's nuclear families and urban lifestyle.

Taking protein supplements can be considered as artificial ways of eating, similar to fast foods or soda. It is something you do because your regular meal does not provide it. It can be argued that the meal is then not complete.

In the military, you need to be trained to survive on anything. You cannot go to a war zone and ask for a protein shake.

Many people genuinely like the taste of meat. I have had people tell me that they have to have meat once a day. Their communities have been doing that for generations, so they don't see any issue.

Most things are OK in moderation. The problem of overeating meat is just the problem of overeating. Once upon a time, all that meat got digested by the farmer in his manual work. If you eat the same amount but sit in front of the TV, there is a problem, but it is not the problem of meat.

As far as the means of production go, cows are reared for milk in the same kind of automated factories. If a person's ancestor had chickens in his farm, he would eat them. The modern person depends on mass produced meat. The problem, he would argue, is not meat but mass production, which can also be blamed for all different kinds of foods and other commodities.

Most athletes eat meat. They, and soldiers, would claim that a certain amount of aggressiveness and energy comes from meat, which is essential to their work.

In some parts of the world, the only protein available is meat or fish. The land does not allow protein crops to be grown. Meat and fish have been the staple of these communities for generations.

 

[T Woody]

borg, I like the tact your taking with the debate, so I'll respond to some of the factors you mentioned from the 'pro-meat' side of the coin.

Environmental - The way I shop for beef is to drop by my local farmer's market a few times a week and buy grassfed beef, free range eggs and chicken raised locally from a farm just down the road. I will say without hesitation this leaves much less of an impact on mother earth than an 'environmentally conscious' vegetarian who goes to safeway and buys oranges flown in from australia or strawberries from argentina. I realize I'm talking in black and whites here, but the carbon footprint a person leaves depends much more on how they buy their food than what food they buy.

I'll concede the CAFO's where most commerically raised animals are pumped full of hormones and gourged with food to promote growth at three times the normal speed is a huge problem in the meat industry. But it doesn't mean sustainable meat farming isn't possible, though it's a small minority in our country. Here is a good article looking at the possibility of sustainable meat farming. I'd also urge people to read Pollan's Omnivore's Dillemma or check out the work of Joel Salatin at Polyface Farms.

http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2009/07/27/paleoprimal-lifestyle-sustainable-meat-production/

Moral - This is a tough one for many people. I look at it like this: Based on the way we've evolved, humans are not natural herbivores. A good example of a pure herbivore is a cow, a rheumatoid animal who contains the type of stomach and intentine specifically designed to turn vegetation into protein to sustain their massive body. We don't have this capability. We get our protein by allowing the cow to do the magical work of turning grass into protein, then we eat the cow. This is how omnivores and carnivores survive. I simply see the food chain as a law of nature and evolution. We were designed to get quality, usable protein from these animals. To do that, we must kill them. Not that I'm heartless. I think they should be killed in the most sterile, humanely way possible so they do not suffer. Though many people who take a moral issue with this say that killing them in any way at all is inhumane. I'd ask these people to watch a close up video of lion stalking and killing a zebra and ask them how humane that act of nature is.

Health & Longevity - Meat and other fatty natural products like butter have taken a tremendously inordinate share of the blame for heart disease and obesity over the past 50 years. The true culprit is processed food and diets heavy in grain. These things disrupt our blood sugar and insulin, promote fat storage, cause inflammation in the cells, and give us cravings for more food, causing people to overeat. Since your wife is a doctor, I'm sure she and you both are aware of this and judging by your excellent health markers, I'd bet you eat natural foods almost exclusively. And this is the real answer, whether you eat meat or not. It's certainly possible to construct a very healthy diet both with or without meat if the diet is composed of a variety of fruits, vegetables, nuts, seed, and beans. The problem with many of the studies you cited was they did not control well for garbage carbohydrate present in the diet of the subjects, which adding separate variable to the mix, highly skewing the results. Essentially, meat has become the whipping boy in the obesity epidemic while people turn a blind eye on the massive increase in the consumption of processed carbohydrate.

Religious - I have no answer. As with all subjects that are faith based, it's impossible to logically argue against someone's passion, opinion, and belief system. I'll leave that alone.

 

[borg number one]

Sureshs, I could give you responses to just about each and every one of those reasons above, but I'll save that for another time. Plus, all of the above has to be weighed against the downside also, for everyone.

Thanks though, you brought up some reasonable arguments against avoiding meat. In summary though, I don't think they add up in terms of the total downside of meat consumption/meat production.

 

[borg number one]

Thanks TWoody, good discussion as this is a worthy topic for debate. You are what you eat, aren't you? I'll read your post in detail and respond to both you and Sureshs probably by tomorrow morning.

 

[T Woody]

Sureshs' point about the opposable toe on Ardipithecus sparked an important point about how evolution ties in to this. Archeological evidence suggests our guts used to be large and our brains small, more similar to apes. As we began to eat meat and more calorie dense food (supplemented with fruits and veggies), our stomachs grew smaller and our brains grew larger to adapt to this development, similar to the way an opposable toe was a way to adapt to the repetitive climbing of trees.

The point is, whether we like it or not, our bodies have evolved over 2 million years to eat and digest a combination of animal meat, fruits, and vegetation. Like a truck with a diesel engine or an F-16 that requires complex jet fuel, you should feed the human body what it was designed to run on best. This is less a point of contention with vegetarians and more with people who demonize natural meat yet see no problem with refined grains, 'healthy' processed foods, or supplementation. It logically does not follow that something created in the past 100 years (or less) will be as good for the body as something it was evolved to consume, whether it's meat or not.

 

[borg number one]

Thanks TWoody, there is much "food for thought". I will respond in more detail, but here are some counter points to your arguments above and some of the arguments forwarded by Sureshs.

http://www.vegansa.com/veganism-diet-and-human-evolution.php#carni

 

[T Woody]

Thanks TWoody, there is much "food for thought". I will respond in more detail, but here are some counter points to your arguments above and some of the arguments forwarded by Sureshs.

http://www.vegansa.com/veganism-diet-and-human-evolution.php#carni

I'm sorry borg, but I just cannot accept that as a source. This quote is misinformed at best and just an outright lie at worst:
"Those living in the frozen Arctic wastes, such as the Inuit or Eskimos, have to rely exclusively on animals for their food, die in their 40s and suffer from osteoporosis (weak bones due to a shortage of calcium)."

Here's a summary of the Inuit experience (which actually cites references), which has undergone a number of studies to show that a diet composed of up to 80% animal fat leads to increased longevity and low risks of heart disease and athlersclerosis

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/07/inuit-lessons-from-arctic.html

The guy on that vegan website is essentially writing an op ed piece with no references in order to fill content on the site. Not exactly solid evidence of anything.

I do agree with you that from a sustainability point of view currently, cutting back on meat slightly or altogether is better for our environment. However, I won't budge on the subject of health/longevity. I think in the end, we'll both end up beating out heads against the wall because the real culprit isn't "meat or non meat" but rather processed food, refined grains, and overeating that is the true source of all of our nutritional problems.

 

[WildVolley]

One argument against vegetarianism is how small and weak vegetarian kids look. I've read on line that this is a myth, but in my experience (I live in California - lots of Vegetarians and Vegans) vegetarian children are small, scrawny and weak looking.

Either vegetarianism is not optimal for the developing child/athlete or many vegetarians are doing a poor job of getting proper nutrition for their children.

 

[borg number one]

TWoody, how about longevity and the Mediterranean Diet? Also, how about links between longevity and reduced caloric intake (something much more difficult to achieve with meat intake).

I know you don't like that source, but I'll look for many others in due time. Instead of dismissing all of the material out of hand in the article, how would you speak to many of the points raised as to evolution and "optimal diets"?

Wildvolley, that's an interesting reason for not being vegetarian, but note that kids growing up, especially very athletic kids, tend to be quite thin anyway. Plus, how about when they are in their 20's, 30's and beyond? Often the kids that are pretty big and muscular in their teens end up with huge stomachs and lots of excess body fat in their later years as they continue with their same diets as their metabolism changes and they fail to exercise the way they used to. On the other hand, those so called "scrawny kids" often end up being much more fit long-term than their "girthier" counterparts. The typical American "high school jock" is a great example of that.