Very good summary of what is happening and why to Djokovic

[Rina]

Novak Djokovic: Is his vaccine saga an unforced error for Australia? (yahoo.com)

Part of the text:

On Wednesday, Prime Minister Scott Morrison responded to the public outcry by saying the decision to grant Djokovic a vaccine exemption certificate was a matter for the state government of Victoria.

A few hours later, a statement from Australia's Home Affairs Minister Karen Andrews appeared to contradict Mr Morrison - saying that "while the Victorian government and Tennis Australia may permit a non-vaccinated player to compete", the federal government would enforce its requirements at the border.

The following day, Mr Morrison's stance changed as it was revealed that Djokovic's visa had been cancelled, and that the 34-year-old was facing deportation.

"Rules are rules," the prime minister said.

In less than 24 hours, Mr Morrison had U-turned from initially accepting that the Serbian's exemption - and participation in the Australian Open - was a matter for the state of Victoria, to putting his foot down on the federal government's right to enforce its border rules.

It's impossible to ignore the politics at play here.

 

[MotoboXer]

#conspiracy . . .

 

[PilotPete]

The better question is, if there were no such thing as 6-month prior infection criterion on the table anywhere in Australia, would Djokovic have tried to fake an adverse reaction to a past Covid vaccine, Serbian doctor certified of course.

 

[reaper]

The better question is, if there were no such thing as 6-month prior infection criterion on the table anywhere in Australia, would Djokovic have tried to fake an adverse reaction to a past Covid vaccine, Serbian doctor certified of course.

Hasn't he declared a positive test, rather than claimed an adverse vaccine reaction? Or has there been an update I've missed?

 

[pj80]

Hasn't he declared a positive test, rather than claimed an adverse vaccine reaction? Or has there been an update I've missed?

he is asking if prior infection was not on the table...

 

[intrepidish]

The OP was a garbage summary.

There is black letter administrative law for entry in Australia. It's quite simple and any doubts can be cleared up by contacting the administrative arm which actually establishes border law. No one else; not TA and not any regional entity, supersedes that. Djokovic and his team can easily find out what those black letter requirements are and no doubt they did.

Novak chose to try and enter not having fulfilled the black letter requirements and paid the price. It appears that people who were interested in having him come may have been involved in trying to help him squeak through if no one was looking closely. But someone DID look.

Nothing any other agency or entity told him is relevant for that border entry.

 

[reaper]

The OP was a garbage summary.

There is black letter administrative law for entry in Australia. It's quite simple and any doubts can be cleared up by contacting the administrative arm which actually establishes border law. No one else; not TA and not any regional entity, supersedes that. Djokovic and his team can easily find out what those black letter requirements are and no doubt they did.

Novak chose to try and enter not having fulfilled the black letter requirements and paid the price. It appears that people who were interested in having him come may have been involved in trying to help him squeak through if no one was looking closely. But someone DID look.

Nothing any other agency or entity told him is relevant for that border entry.

Leaving aside the legality of this, the federal government should have been a party to the state government/TA process. People coming as participants in what is by attendance the largest annual event in Australia shouldn't have to be experts on where power stands on different matters in Australia's federation. By excluding the federal government from that process they've ended up granting players meaningless exemptions...the process may as well have been non existent.

 

[intrepidish]

Leaving aside the legality of this, the federal government should have been a party to the state government/TA process. People coming as participants in what is by attendance the largest annual event in Australia shouldn't have to be experts on where power stands on different matters in Australia's federation. By excluding the federal government from that process they've ended up granting players meaningless exemptions...the process may as well have been non existent.

Wrong. The federal government has no obligation nor duty to be a party to any other entity's process. It is rather those other entities which are superseded by, and which must be in harmony with, the relevant governing body in administrative law for the matter at hand. And it was always clear who that was.

 

[xFedal]

"At the moment he can leave, but his lawyers are defending him by claiming he tested positive covid on the 16th December. He was at several events close to people unmasked on the 17th and beyond. If he has lied he can be jailed for 15 years." I thought the worst that happens is the 3 year ban, but 15 years in jail no way!!!!!!

 

[Rina]

The OP was a garbage summary.

There is black letter administrative law for entry in Australia. It's quite simple and any doubts can be cleared up by contacting the administrative arm which actually establishes border law. No one else; not TA and not any regional entity, supersedes that. Djokovic and his team can easily find out what those black letter requirements are and no doubt they did.

Novak chose to try and enter not having fulfilled the black letter requirements and paid the price. It appears that people who were interested in having him come may have been involved in trying to help him squeak through if no one was looking closely. But someone DID look.

Nothing any other agency or entity told him is relevant for that border entry.

Here we have the alleged law poster who is clearly a Nadal fan and has lost his mind. LIke some many Australians did.

 

[PilotPete]

"At the moment he can leave, but his lawyers are defending him by claiming he tested positive covid on the 16th December. He was at several events close to people unmasked on the 17th and beyond. If he has lied he can be jailed for 15 years." I thought the worst that happens is the 3 year ban, but 15 years in jail no way!!!!!!

15 years in a Serbian jail for Jesus is a weeks stay at the Raddison.

 

[intrepidish]

Here we have the alleged law poster who is clearly a Nadal fan and has lost his mind. LIke some many Australians did.

Easy to call something ''losing your mind' and much harder instead to actually counter a straightforward legal argument when you don't really even understand the most basic of principles as in your case.

 

[reaper]

Wrong. The federal government has no obligation nor duty to be a party to any other entity's process. It is rather those other entities which are superseded by, and which must be in harmony with, the relevant governing body in administrative law for the matter at hand. And it was always clear who that was.

I didn't argue that the federal government had a legal obligation to be party to the process, merely that they should have been party to the process. I'd be surprised if the government has never previously taken part in a process it wasn't legally obligated too. The process, as it existed was really only able to confer advice to Australian players, which is an inadequate process for an event at which only a small minority of players are Australian.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Wrong. The federal government has no obligation nor duty to be a party to any other entity's process. It is rather those other entities which are superseded by, and which must be in harmony with, the relevant governing body in administrative law for the matter at hand. And it was always clear who that was.

And, to put a finer point on it for the Americans here, states *freak out* when they think the federal government is getting all up in their business.

But now people here are saying the federal government in Australia should have been involved in the state of Victoria's determination of what standards it should have for who could enter the grounds of Melbourne Park?

 

[Cindysphinx]

I didn't argue that the federal government had a legal obligation to be party to the process, merely that they should have been party to the process. I'd be surprised if the government has never previously taken part in a process it wasn't legally obligated too. The process, as it existed was really only able to confer advice to Australian players, which is an inadequate process for an event at which only a small minority of players are Australian.

The federal government *was* part of the process. They told TA *twice* that prior Covid wouldn't get anyone into the country.

 

[intrepidish]

I didn't argue that the federal government had a legal obligation to be party to the process, merely that they should have been party to the process. I'd be surprised if the government has never previously taken part in a process it wasn't legally obligated too. The process, as it existed was really only able to confer advice to Australian players, which is an inadequate process for an event at which only a small minority of players are Australian.

The advice was clear and published. It was accessible to all. The reason there is confusion is that 1 very important player was not interested in going along with what was well known to be the 100% agreed upon black letter rule.

 

[Bartelby]

The Minister did not contradict the Prime Minister. He suddenly and inexplicably changed his mind and set in train a series of events designed to cancel unlawfully Djokovic's visa.

 

[insideguy]

How in the heck can a state grant an exemption for something like that. This is weird in and off itself

 

[intrepidish]

The Minister did not contradict the Prime Minister. He suddenly and inexplicably changed his mind and set in train a series of events designed to cancel unlawfully Djokovic's visa.

Once more, if you want certainty, it is well established practice to contact the administrative entity which is responsible for publishing the legal requirements.

There is black letter administrative law for entry in Australia. It's quite simple and any doubts can be cleared up by contacting the administrative arm which actually establishes border law. No one else; not TA and not any regional entity, supersedes that. Djokovic and his team can easily find out what those black letter requirements are and no doubt they did.

Novak chose to try and enter not having fulfilled the black letter requirements and paid the price. It appears that people who were interested in having him come may have been involved in trying to help him squeak through if no one was looking closely. But someone DID look.

Nothing any other agency or entity told him is relevant for that border entry.

 

[Rina]

Easy to call something ''losing your mind' and much harder instead to actually counter a straightforward legal argument when you don't really even understand the most basic of principles as in your case.

I understand that if you are Australian, it is easier for you to be mad at Djokovic than at yourself. If you were honest, you would realize that you have put up with a crapload of restrictions for the last two years, that has done what? Caused a man to beat up a jogger in a park? Arrested teens for gathering on the beach, limited your movement to an hour or two during the day?
Instead of admitting that your and your countrymen are insane pushovers that have granted insane powers to politicians you project your anger at a random athlete.

 

[Rina]

5, 6 people like my post and the linked article, but there is intrepidish... who knows better.

 

[intrepidish]

I understand that if you are Australian, it is easier for you to be mad at Djokovic than at yourself. If you were honest, you would realize that you have put up with a crapload of restrictions for the last two years, that has done what? Caused a man to beat up a jogger in a park? Arrested teens for gathering on the beach, limited your movement to an hour or two during the day?
Instead of admitting that your and your countrymen are insane pushovers that have granted insane powers to politicians you project your anger at a random athlete.

I notice you are now not even trying to address the legal argument. That is good because you can not.

The rest of what you write is of no relevance in this context in addition to being highly contestable.

 

[reaper]

The federal government *was* part of the process. They told TA *twice* that prior Covid wouldn't get anyone into the country.

Tennis Australia claims that the Minister personally directed Tennis Australia to the official government site "Smart Traveller" on December 7, which listed (according to TA) a previous Covid positive as a basis for exemption. Irrespective, the exemption process provided 2 levels of clearance (Victorian government and TA) where a 3rd level of clearance was required (federal government). As such, the feds should have been a formal element of the process, not dispensing ad hoc advice.

 

[intrepidish]

5, 6 people like my post and the linked article, but there is intrepidish... who knows better.

The number of people liking a post in no way establishes its veracity in any context much less in terms of the legal obligation which was ignored by Djokovic.

 

[Bartelby]

The PM of Australia engaged in a process that led to the unlawful cancellation of Djokovic's visa, and for that he will be held to account.

 

[intrepidish]

Tennis Australia claims that the Minister personally directed Tennis Australia to the official government site "Smart Traveller" on December 7, which listed (according to TA) a previous Covid positive as a basis for exemption. Irrespective, the exemption process provided 2 levels of clearance (Victorian government and TA) where a 3rd level of clearance was required (federal government). As such, the feds should have been a formal element of the process, not dispensing ad hoc advice.

Nothing Tennis Australia is saying is relevant and some of it may not in fact even be true.

There is and has been for many years an administrative legal entity which is responsible for making the rules and regulations known.

If anyone needs clarification, as in any other similar country, they contact THAT entity and no other entity.

 

[Rina]

The number of people liking a post in no way establishes its veracity in any context much less in terms of the legal obligation which was ignored by Djokovic.

It is an opinion, you know, something we are allowed to have in the world... but you are not allowed in Australia. Look up the definition of it.

 

[reaper]

Nothing Tennis Australia is saying is relevant and some of it may not in fact even be true.

There is and has been for many years an administrative legal entity which is responsible for making the rules and regulations known.

If anyone needs clarification, as in any other similar country, they contact THAT entity and no other entity.

The entity you contact is the official material published by the government. Most of us don't have a line to call the relevant minister. Tennis Australia were able to contact the minister, who they claim referred them to the government's Smart Teaveller website, from where they drew their protocols.

 

[Bartelby]

If a mistake were made in the issue of the visa, and I don't believe this is the case, they would have to give Novak notice of a change to his visa.

This is why they tortured him into agreeing to the cancellation of the visa. They knew they had no right to cancel without notice.

They used sleep depirvation and being kept incommunicado as soft torture techniques, as you can see from his submission.

 

[Cindysphinx]

The entity you contact is the official material published by the government. Most of us don't have a line to call the relevant minister. Tennis Australia were able to contact the minister, who they claim referred them to the government's Smart Teaveller website, from where they drew their protocols.

Yes, you can go to the web site and sort it out for yourself.

And if you or I or Novak do that right now, we will see there is no medical exemption for foreign nationals entering Australia.

And if you look at the wrong website and misunderstand what it says and how these things work (or if you listen to what a third party like TA says instead), that's on you.

 

[Lleytonstation]

This is a terrible summary. Who are you? The media?

 

[MeatTornado]

No such thing as a good summary of what happened until the matter is resolved and both sides speak publicly about it.

There's too much we still don't know about what's going on.

 

[guanzishou]

There is no U-Turn. In November The Health Department already warned Craig Tiley twice that past covid-19 infection is not a valid medical exemption for entry to Australia.

 

[Bartelby]

The Australian state tortured the world's leading tennis player. Let that sink in for a few minutes!

 

[reaper]

Yes, you can go to the web site and sort it out for yourself.

And if you or I or Novak do that right now, we will see there is no medical exemption for foreign nationals entering Australia.

And if you look at the wrong website and misunderstand what it says and how these things work (or if you listen to what a third party like TA says instead), that's on you.

Maybe. Participants at major events are ordinarily subject to facilitation through processes such as these. I still believe the federal government should have been party to the initial TA/Vic government process. It's easy to see how for an event that requires clarification for international competitors that would have been a superior process, and difficult to see how it would have made the process inferior to what existed.