Very interesting what Popsicle says here...

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
It's interesting that Sandgren interprets the problem as one involving a lack of independent professional representation.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Perhaps our favourite Bart will start a GoFundMe for these struggling underrepresented Top 100 player-millonaires.

Cry us a river!
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
Well, Djokovic and his close family are/have been pretty deeply involved in tournament organization, both ATP and non-ATP (Belgrade, Adria Tour), so that description is no longer very accurate.

ATP transparently doesn't want a rival tour/a tour split, so I think Djokovic's involvement in the PTPA unnerves them more than any player demands.

For similar reasons, ATP is probably wary of Fed (who has showed with the Laver Cup that he has the pockets and connections to operate tournaments outside the scope of the ATP). Right now it seems ATP is trying cater to Fed/is on amiable terms with him, but these things can change at the drop of a hat.
I’m not sure what “that description is no longer very accurate “ is referring to. However, if it relates to arguments by some to discredit the PTPA by suggesting it’s a guise for Djoker to seed the formation of a new tour I don’t think it’s going to satisfy the players. Bottom line is many players feel the ATP is not working for them and they’d be better off with their own association and apparently trust Djokovic to take the lead.

Why is the ATP better for players than a player only association handling all negotiations on behalf of players with the tournaments, TV/media and every other potential revenue stream as well as with respect to non-monetary issues ? If the ATP CEO can’t explain it to the players in a clear and convincing way and without allegedly screaming at Popsy for 90 minutes than I don’t think the ATP has a happy future.
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Your feelings of class resentment are on display. Interesting!
It has already been pointed out to you that the typical Top 100 player comes from the 98'th percentile of the socio-economic ladder.

Yet you continuously to characterize it as class warfare.

It cannot be class warfare when the two sides are from the same upper classes!

Pospisil has allowed us to see the 'class struggle' in action, comrade,
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Even Goldman Sachs' junior bankers are claiming exploitation given that their hourly rate is less than a McDonalds' employee!

It has already been pointed out to you that the typical Top 100 player comes from the 98'th percentile of the socio-economic ladder.

Yet you continuously to characterize it as class warfare.

It cannot be class warfare when the two sides are from the same upper classes!


 

NonP

Hall of Fame
Wow, not sure if the players were ever this vocal about their support for Pop (and Novak) and the PTPA but those tweets are probably not anomalies. No wonder Gaudenzi and other ATP bigwigs are feeling threatened!

One more thing:

Players take the side of Popsicle.

That's a really damning stat. Even if you acknowledge that golf is the game for business types and hockey and cricket may boast a bigger worldwide audience 1.3% seems an awfully low share for what is supposed to be the world's most popular individual sport. Would like to see a breakdown of the worldwide revenue by sport, I bet it's not all that more flattering if at all to tennis.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Even Goldman Sachs' junior bankers are claiming exploitation given that their hourly rate is less than a McDonalds' employee!
Isner cites the Bloomberg report that shows the sport of tennis accounts for only 1.3% of global TV and Media rights.

Tennis is vastly underperforming other sports with respect to TV viewership.

Indeed, this report aligns with our experience. We do not know of anyone who sits down and watches an entire 3 hour ATP tennis match. The rare exceptions are Slam matches and Slam finals featuring Big Three.

The TV revenue looks quite pathetic.

If there is no TV revenue, there is really not much to negotiate here. The sport needs to gain more viewers.

This will likely lead to gimmicks such as Slams switching to best of three to draw more viewers. Bart will be happy but it will infuriate the true tennis purists and hardcore fans.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
1.3% of a one hundred billion dollars is 1.3 billion dollars. That's not chicken feed. So it all depends on the total value of the rights in circulation.

Isner cites the Bloomberg report that shows the sport of tennis accounts for only 1.3% of global TV and Media rights.

Tennis is vastly underperforming other sports with respect to TV viewership.

Indeed, this report aligns with our experience. We do not know of anyone who sits down and watches an entire 3 hour ATP tennis match. The rare exceptions are Slam matches and Slam finals featuring Big Three.

The TV revenue looks quite pathetic.

If there is no TV revenue, there is really not much to negotiate here. The sport needs to gain more viewers.

This will likely lead to gimmicks such as Slams switching to best of three to draw more viewers. Bart will be happy but it will infuriate the true tennis purists and hardcore fans.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
1.3% of a one hundred billion dollars is 1.3 billion dollars. That's not chicken feed. So it all depends on the total value of the rights in circulation.
Tennis viewership is pathetic. It first needs to go up. Then and only then can the negotiations proceed from a position of power.

Get the TV/Media ratings up!

 
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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Every apologist for capitalism ever born tells the workers they must wait and wait and wait ... while government gives billions in free handouts to business buddies.

Tennis viewership first needs to go up. Then and only then can the negotiations proceed.
Get the TV ratings up!
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
This Popsicle dunderhead had no business bringing his feud with the ATP head onto the court. Just play your match.

Nobody on the court knows about nor cares about your difficult meeting. Truly bizarre behaviour.

One wonders if this was not intentional to draw attention to PTP as surely nobody could be this stupid?
:unsure:

 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
There are public figures more famous than Pospisil who spend their time fuming and ranting on twitter. Now those people are really big-time dunderheads, as you would say.

This Popsicle dunderhead had no business bringing his feud with the ATP head onto the court. Just play your match.

Nobody on the court knows about nor cares about your difficult meeting. Truly bizarre behaviour.

One wonders if this was not intentional to draw attention to PTP as surely nobody could be this stupid?
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
A lot of support by the players for Pospisil, and little to none for Gaudenzi. Hardly surprising!
Popsicle is supposed to be a player representative and negotiator. A diplomat.

Popsicle has made an inexcusable blunder by whining on the court of all places. Truly bizarre. Has disgraced himself and the sport and is now unfit to negotiate anything with the ATP Chairman.

Get somebody else with the proper temperament.
 
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This statement fully confirms what I previously stated about how far the "intentions" of those that want a "change" go, and also indicates that those who are for that change have neither the ideas, nor they understand what they are asking.

The question is: where are the detailed goals and approaches by which the new "representation" of the players intends to achieve them?

Why is Pospisil "trying to unite the players" in an non-descript manner, undercover, with no clear objective and, in what appear to be, conflict of interest with the ATP?

Lastly, the statements of some of the players indicate that they have the mentality of children. "Big heart" and "good intentions" are not an excuse for doing stupid things, nor they help with making good decisions, so why is that a leading motive when outlining his actions on court. His actions on court should have been met with strong criticism, not with apologetic rhetoric.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You have only confirmed your pre-existing prejudice. Isner's statement is rather detailed given its limits, but you can't expect a full plan from it.

The usual technique of people who want to hide their own prejudice is to to demand more detail than any given context allows.

Calling players children is the final confirmation that you are running on prejudice and ad hominem attack.

This statement fully confirms what I previously stated about how far the "intentions" of those that want a "change" go, and also indicates that those who are for that change have neither the ideas, nor they understand what they are asking.

The question is: where are the detailed goals and approaches by which the new "representation" of the players intends to achieve them?

Why is Pospisil "trying to unite the players" in an non-descript manner, undercover, with no clear objective and, in what appear to be, conflict of interest with the ATP?

Lastly, the statements of some of the players indicate that they have the mentality of children. "Big heart" and "good intentions" are not an excuse for doing stupid things, nor they help with making good decisions, so why is that a leading motive when outlining his actions on court. His actions on court should have been met with strong criticism, not with apologetic rhetoric.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The ATP does not recognise the PTPA. There is no negotiation and no need for either a negotiator or a diplomat. Pospisil has revealed a hidden dirty war. I thank him for that.

Popsicle is supposed to be a player representative and negotiator. A diplomat.

Popsicle has made an inexcusable blunder by whining on the court of all places. Truly bizarre. Has disgraced himself and the sport and is now unfit to negotiate anything with the ATP Chairman.

Get somebody else with the proper temperament.
 
You have only confirmed your pre-existing prejudice. Isner's statement is rather detailed given its limits, but you can't expect a full plan from it.

The usual technique of people who want to hide their own prejudice is to to demand more detail than any given context allows.

Calling players children is the final confirmation that you are running on prejudice and ad hominem attack.
PTPA hasn't given any detail in any context ever, so your statements are simply more excuses in line with what we have already seen. Players are well advised to support something that has clear goals instead of going by emotions as their statements about Pospisil's big heart show. It really is very simple, for anyone who understand what a true desire for a change is.

Of course, all that has absolutely nothing to do with his on court behaviour, so those who come out with such statements are playing politics, when they are absolutely clueless about these matters. They even openly admit that their reserved demands for more money are such not because they care much about the situation, but because of how it would look to someone else. Amateur Central.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You just don't support the idea behind the PTPA. You have moved on from calling the players 'children' to calling them 'emotional'.

In other words, you made no progress.

(n)(n)(n)

PTPA hasn't given any detail in any context ever, so your statements are simply more excuses in line with what we have already seen. Players are well advised to support something that has clear goals instead of going by emotions as their statements about Pospisil's big heart show. It really is very simple, for anyone who understand what a true desire for a change is.

Of course, all that has absolutely nothing to do with his on court behaviour, so those who come out with such statements are playing politics, when they are absolutely clueless about these matters. They even openly admit that their reserved demands for more money are such not because they care much about the situation, but because of how it would look to someone else. Amateur Central.
 
You just don't support the idea behind the PTPA. You have moved on from calling the players 'children' to calling them 'emotional'.

In other words, you made no progress.

(n)(n)(n)
I have stated multiple times over the years that ATP doesn't represent the player's interests well years and years before PTPA was even on the drawing board, and, as far as I can judge, PTPA is striving to just be another ATP, not what an organisation wanting to restructure the sport should be. It is a FAKE alternative .

I have written extensively about the draws rigging, the seeding system, the other preferential treatment for the top players - all in line with the fact that I don't think that the ATP is doing a good job. On the other hand, you have defended privileges for top players, just because their name is this or that, so you are fake too.

(y)
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The PTPA is an association oriented to typical pay and condition demands. It's not another ATP and doesn't aspire to be an alternative. You are plainly wrong here.

Conditions would include some of the minor issues you raise, but it is overwhelmingly dedicated to better pay and conditions for all players and not just the top ones.

As for draw rigging there is none. You've succumbed to conspiracy thinking here unfortunately.

I have stated multiple times over the years that ATP doesn't represent the player's interests well years and years before PTPA was even on the drawing board, and, as far as I can judge, PTPA is striving to just be another ATP, not what an organisation wanting to restructure the sport should be. It is a FAKE alternative .

I have written extensively about the draws rigging, the seeding system, the other preferential treatment for the top players - all in line with the fact that I don't think that the ATP is doing a good job. On the other hand, you have defended privileges for top players, just because their name is this or that, so you are fake too.
 
The PTPA is an association oriented to typical pay and condition demands. It's not another ATP and doesn't aspire to be an alternative. You are plainly wrong here.

Conditions would include some of the minor issues you raise, but it is overwhelmingly dedicated to better pay and conditions for all players and not just the top ones.
That is not true, and even if it was it leaves wide open the question who a tour with continuing distorted competition favours. The answer is always "those who made it to the top", which means the top 300-500 at best, so it is again the same story, but with the inclusion of a bit more players. That is not "the sport" and will not remedy anything other than to stuff a couple more bank accounts.

The "minor issues" are not minor at all. In some instances they are the very reason why the lower ranked players cannot benefit from the system as it is, and mostly they are just the symptoms of much bigger issues.

In short, the PTPA representatives have not demonstrated that they intend to be e true "players association". The tennis players are not only the top 300-400-500, and the severe lack of attraction to the sport of talent starts well below those rankings.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Now you want the PTPA to solve the problems of professional tennis tout court. Not possible!

That is not true, and even if it was it leaves wide open the question who a tour with continuing distorted competition favours. The answer is always "those who made it to the top", which means the top 300-500 at best, so it is again the same story, but with the inclusion of a bit more players. That is not "the sport" and will not remedy anything other than to stuff a couple more bank accounts.

The "minor issues" are not minor at all. In some instances they are the very reason why the lower ranked players cannot benefit from the system as it is, and mostly they are just the symptoms of much bigger issues.

In short, the PTPA representatives have not demonstrated that they intend to be e true "players association". The tennis players are not only the top 300-400-500, and the severe lack of attraction to the sport of talent starts well below those rankings.
 
Now you want the PTPA to solve the problems of professional tennis tout court. Not possible!
I want an association of the tennis professionals to be an association of the tennis professionals, not for the selected few. It is that simple.

How many problems and to what extend they will be able to solve is a matter of work and circumstances, but at least it will be an honest work towards achieving what they were created for.

Fake organisations are not the answer. In fact, if I were a crook businessman, who wants to keep doing what he is doing with minimal hassle, and not be disturbed with real change, I would have thrown them a morsel, effectively buying their derrieres and shutting them down.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You're just talking nonsense. The Association is not going to solve the problems of the world. The only thing fake is your objection.

I want an association of the tennis professionals to be an association of the tennis professionals, not for the selected few. It is that simple.

How many problems and to what extend they will be able to solve is a matter of work and circumstances, but at least it will be an honest work towards achieving what they were created for.

Fake organisations are not the answer. In fact, if I were a crook businessman, who wants to keep doing what he is doing with minimal hassle, and not be disturbed with real change, I would have thrown them a morsel, effectively buying their derrieres and shutting them down.
 
You're just talking nonsense. The Association is not going to solve the problems of the world. The only thing fake is your objection.
No one is talking about the problems of the world, and you have sold their "cause" for peanuts even before they started. Big business would love to have someone like you at the helm of the syndicates.

:cool:
 

steenkash

Hall of Fame
ATP mafia being called out again and again and yet people think this is about tennis players and them being spoiled. Putting your professional career in jeopardy is not a decision made lightly yet only a few are brave enough to speak out. Novak, Nadal and Federer are all in an advantageous position and yet only one of them has offered to help lower-ranked players. That same player who's been viciously attacked by media and their continued attempt for his character assassination. I'd say it's funny but this is getting very dangerous for anyone who opposes ATP.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Amazon drivers store their pee and poo in boxes because they are never given any time to visit proper facilities.

That's work in the twenty-first century if you don't resist! Hope that's cleared things up.

I don't know what is more opaque
1. The feud between the ATP and PTPA or
2. The discussion in this thread :unsure:
 
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Forehanderer

Professional
Amazon drivers store their pee and poo in boxes because they are never given any time to visit proper facilities.

That's work in the twenty-first century if you don't resist! Hope that's cleared things up.
So no simple explanation but keep adding more equations into an already unclear scenario. Great!
 

Forehanderer

Professional
You have to make clear what you find opaque if you want a specific answer. Otherwise it's a statement and not a question.
If you can't see its a question, then there is no point arguing over this. This is going nowhere. What is the purpose of PTPA and why they have a beef with ATP. Answer this. Just to let you know - this is a question not a statement. If you can't answer it, just say you don't know instead of coming up with amazon workers taking a dump in boxes.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I've answered this question numerous times in the course of this thread. You just need to read it and you'll find this to be the case. I presumed you had already.

If you can't see its a question, then there is no point arguing over this. This is going nowhere. What is the purpose of PTPA and why they have a beef with ATP. Answer this. Just to let you know - this is a question not a statement. If you can't answer it, just say you don't know instead of coming up with amazon workers taking a dump in boxes.
 

Forehanderer

Professional
@Bartelby You were the one who quoted me. So you should furnish the details. Forget that. I finally found out what your explanation is
The ATP is not run by players. They merely have some sort of advisory input. The interests of tournament owners and players are opposed, obviously, and the owners have the power.

The PTPA is a professional association that is not in the business of running tennis tournaments. It's in the business of putting pressure on owners for the benefit of players.

The ATP refuses to engage with the PTPA so, hence, relations devolve into slanging matches of which Pospisil has made us all too aware.
Gotcha. So PTPA is a players association that doesnt run the business and the ATP doesn't engage with the PTPA. This sound Unionish and nothing good comes out of Unions. Unions have been here for more than a century and its effectiveness is abysmal
PTPA set out to be the "transparent" counterpoint to the ATP, yet they are even more underground than the ATP.

LMAO

:cool:
And this guy makes a valid point which is that it never really puts out what PTPA aims to accomplish. He makes an extension that they are even more secretive than the ATP which I don't know but one might surmise that this is a possibility. He didn't quote you and neither did I but you were the one who replied back to both of us and maybe to most in this topic. And you disqualify him with this post and also called him an old man as your final say.
Yet another absurd comment.
They are guilty of pushing the tennis over the edge with their schemes to create privileges for the top players over everyone else, and they are not even hiding it, so they single-handedly ruined the competition in the sport and in the process made it less attractive for young people to compete or/and to succeed in it. A lot of damage was done, but the PTPA is not the organisation to tackle those problems. The way I see it, PTPA wants to replace ATP doing roughly the same thing, so it is not the real alternative. As I said, they are even shadier than the ATP.

:cool:
Here again tennishands is making an interesting point. Competition is what makes the sport and if young upcomig players are caught up in the mess, how does that help the player or the competition. If the PTPA is looking after the lesser players, then it should provide a means to sustain them if a player's strike is carried out as a final retort to ATP's unwillingness to budge. This might explain why PTPA is tentative to make their views public. PTPA saying its a players only association is not revealing anything. They should have a mission and goals and most importantly a registration. Without these things, it is just a namby pamby group that doesn't go anywhere except the scene enacted in the court yesterday.
Most players including the big 3 were privileged few (you could say that about all tennis players as its not a cheap sport) but even they were supported by their parents for a while until they got the fame and riches. You can't expect a young player eager to succeed and make a name for himself find himself in the bad books of the ATP and get sidelined. Its easier for Big 3 and maybe for Popsy but not that easy for a Sinner or a Musetti.
 

Forehanderer

Professional
Oh oh — shots fired.

Now watch Gaudenzi & co drag and wake-up Federer and Nadal from their vacation to respond more favorably
I'm sorry gaudenzi is in no position to ask fedal to back him up. Fedal can light the laver cup and be more popular than miami open or whatever tournament. ATP is in some deep sheet
 

Visionary

Professional
There is no logical connection other than the fact that he is angry at the ATP and this is an ATP event. And that the clash with the Head happened the day before and it is still annoying him.
Is there not a possibility that the player's affected by the treatment of the tennis organization's leadership? Professionalism is expected from every ATP tennis player on the court, but when unexpected happens some may not have a thick enough skin. Pro athletes' performances may be influenced by their private lives issues; hard to imagine how their ability to play the sport is hit given that those problems are with the organization they depend on so much.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Is there not a possibility that the player's affected by the treatment of the tennis organization's leadership?
Popsipil should not have let the bad meeting affect his match. Bringing up Gaudenzi's name to the Chair Umpire at the match. There is no relevance. It was very bizarre.

More likely, the on-court melodramatics was all very calculated to draw attention to the ATP's objections to PTP activities. Bart appears to agree with this assessment.

The ATP does not recognise the PTPA. There is no negotiation and no need for either a negotiator or a diplomat. Pospisil has revealed a hidden dirty war. I thank him for that.
 
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