Vid of two guys at a rec tournament, guess their level

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
You lost to the two in the first post? haha :)

I think I have an idea of a player you are and I have seen a few. You're a fancy and very form conscious player, so much so that you can't play well in a match. Am I right? :)


The maxwell/tim guys are a different story. They are real, hardcore competitors. Quite advance. They go on offense when they have a chance.
There is nothing wrong with being conscious about form, especially when you are new in tennis. As matter of fact, I think that's how u go further as rec tennis player. You will lose to more experienced players at the beginning. But once ur legs and movement get better, u will leave those behind. Fire just need to work on his legs and movement
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
There is nothing wrong with being conscious about form, especially when you are new in tennis. As matter of fact, I think that's how u go further as rec tennis player. You will lose to more experienced players at the beginning. But once ur legs and movement get better, u will leave those behind. Fire just need to work on his legs and movement
Proper form gives you efficiency and confidence.

I've played enough pushers and old guys to know that they are not necessary to win at each level though.

There are those that accuse me of being a pusher too. I'm fine with it.
 

Kevo

Legend
I play with falling 4.0s. They were 5.0s or higher when they were younger. And they know how to make you uncomfortable. Sometimes I think that they are sandbagging.
There is a lot of that around here. I think all the teams that go to state are basically sandbaggers. I've known players that were told to lose by their coach and even told what kind of score he wanted. I hate that garbage myself. I mean it's rec league tennis and you decide you need to cheat at it. Pathetic. One of those coaches wanted me on his team once and I didn't know him that well at the time. Seemed like a nice guy. After asking around I found out about his shenanigans and turned him down. Didn't want any part of it.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
We have the closing of our summer league this weekend, so there are some tournaments organized and we play knockouts etc...

Anyway, made some footage of a some games in a match today

Vid is unedited, so complete point by point, only breaks are cut out.

Lets see TTW make some guesses of their level

And also, enjoy

These guys would be somewhere around 4.0 here in my part of the U.S.

Lefty could probably reach 4.5 with a slightly better serve and a better net game to attack those weak mid-court balls.
 

user92626

Legend
There is nothing wrong with being conscious about form, especially when you are new in tennis. As matter of fact, I think that's how u go further as rec tennis player. You will lose to more experienced players at the beginning. But once ur legs and movement get better, u will leave those behind. Fire just need to work on his legs and movement
You don't know what I was referring to.

I'm not talking about that level of consciousness.

I'm talking about players who seem forever conscious about every little thing instead of the fundamentals. Like the wrist angle, spacing on every shot. They can't shake it off in a match. Good competitors (key words there) are the ones who drop every manual conscious step and focus on doing their best actions, whether they can recall from training or not.

I know some of those "fancy, form" players. They aren't good partners. They are too slow and too rigid. The good partners are the ones who get down and get their hands "dirtied".

This is all in matches. If you're in a practice session, you can be conscious of little things, but notice in practice you need to set up particular scenarios to be effective, ie not everything and the kitchen sink as in a whole match.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
You don't know what I was referring to.

I'm not talking about that level of consciousness.

I'm talking about players who seem forever conscious about every little thing instead of the fundamentals. Like the wrist angle, spacing on every shot. They can't shake it off in a match. Good competitors (key words there) are the ones who drop every manual conscious step and focus on doing their best actions, whether they can recall from training or not.

I know some of those "fancy, form" players. They aren't good partners. They are too slow and too rigid. The good partners are the ones who get down and get their hands "dirtied".

This is all in matches. If you're in a practice session, you can be conscious of little things, but notice in practice you need to set up particular scenarios to be effective, ie not everything and the kitchen sink as in a whole match.
Im not like that at all, I don't think about anything like that during a match.

I do however have little experience and mileage still, need at least 2-3 years of extensive match and tournament and league play before I start to be what I would say solid and play a solid game.

Right now I have some decent strokes, tho still lots of room for improvement.

But I lack alot in:

Tactics
Shot selection
Mental toughness
Decision making
Having a plan or strategy
Knowing all types of opponents and how to play them and also getting used to all balls and dealing with all types of balls
Footwork
Reading the opponent
etc etc

So my level is very up and down, im capable of alot based on my technique and shots, but based on all of the above im also capable of making incredibly st*pid mistakes or decisions etc

If I manage to videotape a match that I play where I play really good, freely, relaxed and also manage to make some good decisions and serve clicking and people on this forum would not know me or how long ive been playing or anything im very confident that I would be rated very high by many people, ive played some good matches and won quite a few games off some very high rated players official UTR players.

But if I manage to videotape a match where im a bit tight and/or where I also make alot of tactical and st*pid mistakes which im very capable of making tons of, or my footwork is very lazy and sloppy because im underestimating the slow balls, then I would be rated very low here, and ive lost some matches against some very horrible looking rec players who don't really have anything they can hurt me with, by basically making tons of st*pid mistakes and trying to outhit them with winners left and right from start to finish, where I hit some great winners but too many errors.

But the real kicker is, im not even sure what I do right when I play very high level tennis, I haven't figured it out yet, but I do know that sometimes I made a TON of extremely amateurish and very naive and st*pid mistakes and give away tons of points in alot of matches, but sometimes something kinda clicks and I manage to play right and smart and good. But I need many many years still of improving my game which needs alot to improve yet, not to mention gain a ton of match experience.
 

34n

Rookie
What exactly do you do with your coach aimed at improving match performance? Any specific drills?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
What exactly do you do with your coach aimed at improving match performance? Any specific drills?
Im slowly transitioning into some tactics stuff and so on, but match performance improves the most by playing matches, theres no other way around that.

For example last week I played a guy and lost 6:2 6:1 and I didn't feel like I played well, I wanted to hit crazy hard shots and hit winners from defense, and some other blunders and tactical mistakes.

Then this last time we played again I lost 6:4 7:6 and played much much better, by adjusting a few things and it ended up working extremely well, and I would have won the first set if not for two horrible service games.

Trying out stuff, and changing and adjusting and all that, all processes to improve your game.
 

leojramirez

Rookie
Im slowly transitioning into some tactics stuff and so on, but match performance improves the most by playing matches, theres no other way around that.

For example last week I played a guy and lost 6:2 6:1 and I didn't feel like I played well, I wanted to hit crazy hard shots and hit winners from defense, and some other blunders and tactical mistakes.

Then this last time we played again I lost 6:4 7:6 and played much much better, by adjusting a few things and it ended up working extremely well, and I would have won the first set if not for two horrible service games.

Trying out stuff, and changing and adjusting and all that, all processes to improve your game.
You'll get there and could do sooner if you change your mindset. Train not to hit winners but not to miss a shot. Become a pusher for a while, once you nailed that to the point where you are confident that not even a pusher can beat you at pushing, then you start bringing attacking shots into the mix. At that point you'll know at least what to expect from yourself, and even when playing badly and missing shots from your usual game you'll always have the confidence that pushing will at the very least keep you in the game until your shots start clicking again.
Its easier than you think, just got to believe it.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
You'll get there and could do sooner if you change your mindset. Train not to hit winners but not to miss a shot. Become a pusher for a while, once you nailed that to the point where you are confident that not even a pusher can beat you at pushing, then you start bringing attacking shots into the mix. At that point you'll know at least what to expect from yourself, and even when playing badly and missing shots from your usual game you'll always have the confidence that pushing will at the very least keep you in the game until your shots start clicking again.
Its easier than you think, just got to believe it.
Well I will never push, but I assume you mean fast swing topspin margin rally shots.

Anyway yes its good of course, to develop consistent groundstrokes that you can hit 20 in a row no problem with active spin, but you also need to move fast and have good footwork and position well, something I tend to lack the most against slow balls and such, since im underestimating them and think they are slow and easy hence I can afford to save energy.

Sometimes I get too caught in the idea of since Federer is my idol and I love his gamestyle, that I have to be aggressive all the time and go for shots and risk it and let it get too much into my head at times.
 

leojramirez

Rookie
Well I will never push, but I assume you mean fast swing topspin margin rally shots.

Anyway yes its good of course, to develop consistent groundstrokes that you can hit 20 in a row no problem with active spin, but you also need to move fast and have good footwork and position well, something I tend to lack the most against slow balls and such, since im underestimating them and think they are slow and easy hence I can afford to save energy.

Sometimes I get too caught in the idea of since Federer is my idol and I love his gamestyle, that I have to be aggressive all the time and go for shots and risk it and let it get too much into my head at times.
We can all learn a thing or two from the pusher. I meant more wall mode djokovic like, not attacking balls, just placing them and using margins. Feds game is too complicated to model yourself on.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
We can all learn a thing or two from the pusher. I meant more wall mode djokovic like, not attacking balls, just placing them and using margins. Feds game is too complicated to model yourself on.
Yes but in my opinion you should model your game depending on yourself and what ur good at.

I haven't quite figured out everything yet about my game, infact I haven't figured much out.

But I do know that I will model my service game similarly to Roger and similar players, and build towards that in the next years, because I have a naturally good serve, so I should exploit it and try to take advantage of it with serve +1 and possibly also attacking the net if the opportunity is there and really building a strong service game that holds service games easy and efficiently.

But other than that, I have yet to figure out the best strategies or strenghts to play towards in other situations like return or when ur bogged down in a rally etc..
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
You don't know what I was referring to.

I'm not talking about that level of consciousness.

I'm talking about players who seem forever conscious about every little thing instead of the fundamentals. Like the wrist angle, spacing on every shot. They can't shake it off in a match. Good competitors (key words there) are the ones who drop every manual conscious step and focus on doing their best actions, whether they can recall from training or not.

I know some of those "fancy, form" players. They aren't good partners. They are too slow and too rigid. The good partners are the ones who get down and get their hands "dirtied".

This is all in matches. If you're in a practice session, you can be conscious of little things, but notice in practice you need to set up particular scenarios to be effective, ie not everything and the kitchen sink as in a whole match.
I think you are extrapolating Fire's playing. From his videos and his posts, i see nothing indicating him to be someone forever conscious about every little thing.
You and I can both agree that in match play, a full fancy form is not going to be helpful. And overly conscious is good in practice but not in match play.
 

34n

Rookie
Im slowly transitioning into some tactics stuff and so on, but match performance improves the most by playing matches, theres no other way around that.
Matches don’t happen too often. On the other hand there are a few common drills that may be as effective as actual match play. Your coach certainly knows them.
The hard part is finding a motivated parter who would be spending time on relatively boring drills.
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
We have the closing of our summer league this weekend, so there are some tournaments organized and we play knockouts etc...

Anyway, made some footage of a some games in a match today

Vid is unedited, so complete point by point, only breaks are cut out.

Lets see TTW make some guesses of their level

And also, enjoy

3,5 to weak 4.0
 

BetaServe

Professional
@FiReFTW what happens if someone keeps hitting to your BH? Especially low slice to your BH? Or constantly making you come to the net (by hitting a short slice to your BH) knowing that your volleys are the worst aspect of your game?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
@FiReFTW what happens if someone keeps hitting to your BH? Especially low slice to your BH? Or constantly making you come to the net (by hitting a short slice to your BH) knowing that your volleys are the worst aspect of your game?
What makes you think volleys are the worst aspect of my game?

I handle low balls well on my backhand but it depends, shorter ones i can attack, deep ones cant really do much and if its a really knifing slice then i might have some problems but not many can hit an extremely good knifing slice, infact most people ive played so far almost never hit backhand slices.
 

user92626

Legend
You'll get there and could do sooner if you change your mindset. Train not to hit winners but not to miss a shot. Become a pusher for a while, once you nailed that to the point where you are confident that not even a pusher can beat you at pushing, then you start bringing attacking shots into the mix. At that point you'll know at least what to expect from yourself, and even when playing badly and missing shots from your usual game you'll always have the confidence that pushing will at the very least keep you in the game until your shots start clicking again.
Its easier than you think, just got to believe it.
This is actually a good tip.

No one can get good, hit good without having gone thru the previous, easier steps which many call pushing. An analogy is you cannot get to the top step in a stairway without stepping on the lower steps first.

I have done alot of no-missing, high % tennis (many call it pushing). Done a lot of old men's tennis, played alot with old men, women, newbies as well who hit at snail pace. In those instances I was freed up from pace pressure to work in footwork, and different, improvised shots.

By the time I played with better, younger players I was already much better than them. On the other hands these "better, younger" players who always avoid old men, women, have stunt footwork, movement and hitting range. They rip alot of short balls out. For instance they really hate playing against my partner who's a consistent lobber. They aren't used to teeing off high balls. My partner even felt bad from winning with one style.
 
You'll get there and could do sooner if you change your mindset. Train not to hit winners but not to miss a shot. Become a pusher for a while, once you nailed that to the point where you are confident that not even a pusher can beat you at pushing, then you start bringing attacking shots into the mix. At that point you'll know at least what to expect from yourself, and even when playing badly and missing shots from your usual game you'll always have the confidence that pushing will at the very least keep you in the game until your shots start clicking again.
Its easier than you think, just got to believe it.
My current partner plays like this and it's helping me a lot already in just a week of rallying with him. No more going for low margin attempted winners, either get him out of position or wait for him to get fed up and do a kamikaze approach to the net. And he is also amazing with lobs so it's ridiculously difficult to approach/volley against him.
 
And he is also amazing with lobs so it's ridiculously difficult to approach/volley against him.
I have some suggestions. When he hits these amazing lobs, is he in relative balance and unrushed or can he hit them from any postion? Most people's ability to lob falls off rapidly when they're off-balance, stretched, pushed back or pulled forward, or the contact point is very low or high.

- Hit your approach low
- Hit your approach short
- Hit your approach down the middle and make him move out of the way to hit the lob
- Don't close to the net so much; hang back a bit closer to the SL and look for the telltale clues [ie open racquet face, less aggressive stance, etc]
- Approach off of unexpected shots [ie one that pushed you back a bit that you semi-moonballed]
 
I have some suggestions. When he hits these amazing lobs, is he in relative balance and unrushed or can he hit them from any postion? Most people's ability to lob falls off rapidly when they're off-balance, stretched, pushed back or pulled forward, or the contact point is very low or high.

- Hit your approach low
- Hit your approach short
- Hit your approach down the middle and make him move out of the way to hit the lob
- Don't close to the net so much; hang back a bit closer to the SL and look for the telltale clues [ie open racquet face, less aggressive stance, etc]
- Approach off of unexpected shots [ie one that pushed you back a bit that you semi-moonballed]
So, basically, he is a good athlete so even if I rush him, he can maintain balance in a seemingly unbalanced position and hit a deep lob. Imagine this for instance: I drilled one into his FH corner and got inside the court but still far enough (from the net) to hit an approach into his BH side. It was fast and deep into the BH corner and he STILL got there and lobbed it. And deep lobs so they take the smash out. Yes, I have been trying to avoid closing down the net though that means opening up his passing shot. But it's a risk I have to take. Mind, he has passed me as well from ridiculous positions. And these are passing shots that go around the net post and then angle into the court so I can't make a volley off them.

What DOES work when I execute it well is to go crosscourt on the short ball and make sure the FH kisses the intersection of the service line and singles alley. THAT is finally placed where he can't get to it or even if he does, he is too far out of court to do anything against my reply. But a regular DTL approach doesn't usually work because he anticipates it and starts moving probably even as I am completing the shot. I have tried exactly what you suggested: a low and short approach. It is my preferred approach shot and I find it difficult to execute against him because he uses topspin to produce good elevation off balls that aren't that fast nor too deep. What I am saying is there is less momentum on the incoming balls for me to work with so when I go too flat on the approach shot in an attempt to keep it low, I end up netting it which didn't used to happen before for me.

Other than that (outside of an approach-volley tactic) what works is changing up the rhythm. Just feeding him 3/4 length balls, not letting him get on the attack and then either make a drop or come up with a drastic injection of pace to surprise him. This way, winning a point (for both of us) becomes more about a cat and mouse game, hanging on until one person grabs a small opening to go for the kill. It's not how I used to play before and I can totally see now why I always fared badly in tournaments, lol.
 
So, basically, he is a good athlete so even if I rush him, he can maintain balance in a seemingly unbalanced position and hit a deep lob. Imagine this for instance: I drilled one into his FH corner and got inside the court but still far enough (from the net) to hit an approach into his BH side. It was fast and deep into the BH corner and he STILL got there and lobbed it. And deep lobs so they take the smash out. Yes, I have been trying to avoid closing down the net though that means opening up his passing shot. But it's a risk I have to take. Mind, he has passed me as well from ridiculous positions. And these are passing shots that go around the net post and then angle into the court so I can't make a volley off them.

What DOES work when I execute it well is to go crosscourt on the short ball and make sure the FH kisses the intersection of the service line and singles alley. THAT is finally placed where he can't get to it or even if he does, he is too far out of court to do anything against my reply. But a regular DTL approach doesn't usually work because he anticipates it and starts moving probably even as I am completing the shot. I have tried exactly what you suggested: a low and short approach. It is my preferred approach shot and I find it difficult to execute against him because he uses topspin to produce good elevation off balls that aren't that fast nor too deep. What I am saying is there is less momentum on the incoming balls for me to work with so when I go too flat on the approach shot in an attempt to keep it low, I end up netting it which didn't used to happen before for me.

Other than that (outside of an approach-volley tactic) what works is changing up the rhythm. Just feeding him 3/4 length balls, not letting him get on the attack and then either make a drop or come up with a drastic injection of pace to surprise him. This way, winning a point (for both of us) becomes more about a cat and mouse game, hanging on until one person grabs a small opening to go for the kill. It's not how I used to play before and I can totally see now why I always fared badly in tournaments, lol.
Have you tried S&V?
 
Have you tried S&V?
Not yet. Serve is a little rusty since we simply couldn't play at all for four months during the monsoon (no indoor courts here). I do intend to use it as a surprise weapon because his return is a tad passive possibly as a consequence of him strictly adhering to a high percentage baseline game. I try to be aggressive on returns though that is also because I take it early. It's maybe the one shot I am legit good at, at least on the forehand side. So far haven't tried chip charge either because his second shot is really good. Recovers well even against hard hit and deep returns.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
We have the closing of our summer league this weekend, so there are some tournaments organized and we play knockouts etc...

Anyway, made some footage of a some games in a match today

Vid is unedited, so complete point by point, only breaks are cut out.

Lets see TTW make some guesses of their level

And also, enjoy


4.0 ish.
 

NLBwell

Legend
The big guy plays like my former brother-in-law - a tall ex-football player (American). My brother-in-law was a decent 3.5 league/tournament player. These guys seem more consistent than him, so could be a high 3.5 or a 4.0.
 

basil J

Hall of Fame
They look like 3.0 3.5 to me. awful footwork. the footwork in the video with Tim and Maxwell is miles better. Better footwork =more time to prepare and execute.
 
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