[video] 5.5 vs. 4.5 lesson

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I also don't think there's anything 'excessively' big about your takeback. If there's anything that I did notice, was that your BH has more penetration than your FH. IMO, it's mostly because of the later contact point on your FH. It's amazing how much even a slightly earlier contact point makes a difference in results.

There's a lot of focus on finishing FH on the left side as what the Pros do, but sometimes players forgot (myself included) the side finish is not really the 'end goal', it was just a side-effect of their rotational swing path. With that side finish, the Pros also add their impeccable anticipation and early prep that allows them to hit early and generate great ball penetration. Think forward first before wrapping around - i.e. think of that imaginary straight line to drive through first before wrapping around. Having very loose/relaxed arm also should help generate greater racquet head speed. Most players tighten up in match play and forget that loose/relaxed arm when swinging.

Maybe I'm imagining, but on FH 0:28 I feel I can hear by the sound of the ball that it was not a clean contact. OTH, compare with your BH on 0:38, cleaner hit, earlier contact point, more leaning forward and better penetration.
 
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I also don't think there's anything 'excessively' big about your takeback. If there's anything that I did notice, was that your BH has more penetration than your FH. IMO, it's mostly because of the later contact point on your FH. It's amazing how much even a slightly earlier contact point makes a difference in results.

There's a lot of focus on finishing FH on the left side as what the Pros do, but sometimes players forgot (myself included) the side finish is not really the 'end goal', it was just a side-effect of their rotational swing path. With that side finish, the Pros also add their impeccable anticipation and early prep that allows them to hit early and generate great ball penetration. Think forward first before wrapping around - i.e. think of that imaginary straight line to drive through first before wrapping around. Having very loose/relaxed arm also should help generate greater racquet head speed. Most players tighten up in match play and forget that loose/relaxed arm when swinging.

Maybe I'm imagining, but on FH 0:28 I feel I can hear by the sound of the ball that it was not a clean contact. OTH, compare with your BH on 0:38, cleaner hit, earlier contact point, more leaning forward and better penetration.
ironically i think :38 was a mishit. i remember thinking, "i hit deeper when i mishit than when i hit it clean"
 
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Watch your video, forward to :38, and go slow motion from there.
This is a fairly neutral rally. The shot your coach made was not an outright winner, it was deep, but not baseline deep, at least 4 5 feet from the baseline, with average pace. But you failed to put the ball back.
Look at your take back, it was very far back. Then you realize that you did not have enough time to hit the ball when its in front of you. Then you rushed your stroke through. The whole mechanic was a mess because you did not have enough time to complete a swing, the contact was not clean.
you and i must not be seeing the same thing, because that fh miss at :38 was due to a high arcing heavy topspin deep ball that mid judged. if you think that was a "fairly neutral rally ball" then you are a better player than me.

i was rushed because of my tendency to stand on the baseline, and it pushed me back...

certainly there were a lot of flaws with that particular shot, but more due to me not staying down (i jumped) and aiming flatter (vs high defensive topspin shot)

imo.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
can you explain more? not sure what you mean by "lag closes down too quickly"
It's not clear from your video, but it appears that you are pushing the racket through contact instead of pulling it(pulling effect when the wrist is leading, pushing when racket head is ahead of the wrist),
The result of your shots made me think that you might not be holding the wrist lag through contact. In my experience (the lag makes a huge difference to the spin and depth). IMO, FH could be very explosive if you use straight arm - it's easy power with straight arm and secondly by making the wrist lead the racket through contact.

See the image below - the wrist is leading the racket head at contact.
When I say you are closing down the lag quickly - I meant the wrist is not leading at contact.

If the wrist is leading, you are able to generate more spin and drive harder to make the ball land deep.

IMO, your backhand utilizes kinetic chain and your core muscles. But, forehand is another story. You turn sideways and use the non-dominant hand to get setup for the shot, but the stroke execution is not using your core or much of kinetic chain. You swing really fast and it's dominated by arm - the legs and the upper body is not moving in unison with the arm. They seem to move after contact.

 
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It's not clear from your video, but it appears that you are pushing the racket through contact instead of pulling it(pulling effect when the wrist is leading, pushing when racket head is ahead of the wrist),
The result of your shots made me think that you might not be holding the wrist lag through contact. In my experience (the lag makes a huge difference to the spin and depth). IMO, FH could be very explosive if you use straight arm - it's easy power with straight arm and secondly by making the wrist lead the racket through contact.

See the image below - the wrist is leading the racket head at contact.
When I say you are closing down the lag quickly - I meant the wrist is not leading at contact.

If the wrist is leading, you are able to generate more spin and drive harder to make the ball land deep.

IMO, your backhand utilizes kinetic chain and your core muscles. But, forehand is another story. You turn sideways and use the non-dominant hand to get setup for the shot, but the stroke execution is not using your core or much of kinetic chain. You swing really fast and it's dominated by arm - the legs and the upper body is not moving in unison with the arm. They seem to move after contact.

100% agree,

i want to point out that my opponent is having a big say in allowing me to set up the way i want to :)

kinda reminds me of the boxing adage,... "everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the face"

that said, my coach did say that i'm recovering too quickly (ie taking shortcuts hitting, to save time to get ready for the next shot). i'm better off putting all my time and effort to execute a shot correctly, because it will give me a higher probability to neutralize (which in turn regains the time i lost in execution)

moral of the story IMO is that once your fundamental strokes are there, conditioning and movement (particularly hitting on the run without sacrificing technique (as you pointed out)), should be the priority
 
you and i must not be seeing the same thing, because that fh miss at :38 was due to a high arcing heavy topspin deep ball that mid judged. if you think that was a "fairly neutral rally ball" then you are a better player than me.

i was rushed because of my tendency to stand on the baseline, and it pushed me back...

certainly there were a lot of flaws with that particular shot, but more due to me not staying down (i jumped) and aiming flatter (vs high defensive topspin shot)

imo.
NYTA , you play much better than I do.
At :38 it was a mishit from your coach, it might make you misjudge the trajectory of the ball. Still it was an unforced error. I didn't see your coach hitting that backhand down the line with any attacking attention at all.
Anyway, :cool: i think i should stop here
 
The coach just graduated from college and probably hasnt been teaching long.

The slice fh and drop shot are very disrespectful as a pro (unless asked for forward movement). You dont want your lesson to lose, you want them to hit great shots and win, not hack them up.

No one Ny faces is going to use a chip forehand as weapon unless its a serve return, found it to be unprofessional.

Hitting a tweener vs someone who is paying you? What is your goal here?
You don't think NY will ever face anyone who is capable of hitting slice, chip, or chop forehands?
He's helping NY see some variety.
The match is all in fun, it's a lesson between players at completely different levels, why not hit a tweeter and lighten the mood?
 
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You don't think NY will ever face anyone who is capable of hitting slice, chip, or chop forehands?
He's helping NY see some variety.
The match is all in fun, it's a lesson between players at completely different levels, why not hit a tweeter and lighten the mood?
to be fair, chadillac is right, you won't learn anything from getting beat up by your coach...

that said I ASKED to play against him... spent first hour getting beat up, spent the second hour working on stuff.

but i agree with you, it's my lesson, so i can spend it the way i want :p. i mean if you got to play against (insert your favorite player), would you want to spend your time hitting cooperatively, or would you want to really experience how good they are ;)

coincidentally i spent at least 30 min with him doing nothing but slicing... with me just getting up with heavy topspin.

and that tweener point was hilarious. no disrespect at all.
 
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I just want to say that your serve could be so much better than it is with a simple adjustment. You have practically no upper body rotation at all. Your upper body is virtually motionless during your entire service motion and are left trying to muscle the ball with your arm to generate power. At the peak of your toss, your shoulders are almost level with the ground, and there is no upper body turn at all.

Rather, your upper body should be turned and tilted at the peak of the toss as much as your flexibility allows, so that you can employ maximum upper body rotation in your service motion. It's very easy - as you toss the ball, turn your back to your opponent and slide your left hip toward the right net post. That's it! Here are some benchmarks you should look for. At the peak of your toss, your left arm should be pointing at the ball and in line with your shoulders, and your left shoulder should be almost directly above your right shoulder. From there, you rotate your right shoulder up to the ball dragging the arm and racquet behind it. At contact, your shoulders should reverse positions, with your right shoulder now being almost directly over your left shoulder, and your right arm now extended up to the ball should be in line with your shoulders..
thx again for this observation.. been working the serve for almost a year now... one of these days will post vid of the improvements... i definitely think i'm getting more shoujlder tilt now... still not as much body rotation... one thing at a time.
 
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Jolly would demoralize both of these clowns.

Sad day for the sport and America if that guys a 5.5.
In my area, that guy smoked good 5.0’s like 1,1.
He was itf top 200 at 16y old
Went on to play a ranked d1 (incl then transferred).
Problem is that I don’t have game enough to really show his game. My best shot is barely a rally shot for him.
 
I still believe in LeeD.
You clearly don’t know @JoelDali. His posts are always humorous and intentionally tongue in cheek. :)

If I am not mistaken, he’s a pretty high level player so I’m sure he knows the coach was holding back on @nytennisaddict.
Dali ball boid for the epic immortal Johan Kriek VS McEnroe match at the LA Open in 1981.

Dali was wearing Fila Borg 1980 Wimby kit with Rod Lavers.

These two facts alone make him high level despite devastating losses in Monday Mixed Potluck league.

None of this nonsense erases the fact that the 5.5 guy can’t hang with Kriek or Jolly on indoor carpet or green outdoor har-tru.
 
old enough to be curious about the "over 50's" thread :p
You have very good “hustle” and movement. Your willingness to move forward is also an asset. As you enter the 50’s age group competition do all you can to preserve the movement. It is THE KEY asset necessary to win in senior tennis. That and court sense/anticipation.


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Finally found your video @nytennisaddict

Your stroke and game reminds me of myself, I am first year playing tennis and I do a lot of extreme spin with my groundstrokes.
Still probably can't do it in a match consistently and serve well, but I do think that extreme topspin shot is really one of the easier way to get into higher tier tennis.

Since this is from almost 2 years ago, you probably already fixed a lot of your problems. I just want to know if you are able to hit better "flatter" trajectory extreme topspin shots recently? I have a feeling that one of the reasons you are running around more than your coach is because your shot is too slow. If you can maintain the quality of your spin and increase the pace and lower the launch angle, you would definitely move your coach a lot more and he would probably have to be more serious with you.
 
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Finally found your video @nytennisaddict

Your stroke and game reminds me of myself, I am first year playing tennis and I do a lot of extreme spin with my groundstrokes.
Still probably can't do it in a match consistently and serve well, but I do think that extreme topspin shot is really one of the easier way to get into higher tier tennis.

Since this is from almost 2 years ago, you probably already fixed a lot of your problems. I just want to know if you are able to hit better "flatter" trajectory extreme topspin shots recently? I have a feeling that one of the reasons you are running around more than your coach is because your shot is too slow. If you can maintain the quality of your spin and increase the pace and lower the launch angle, you would definitely move your coach a lot more and he would probably have to be more serious with you.
hehe thx @pencilcheck

i used to hit hawaiian grip... ultra spinny, so this is very toned down in terms of spin!

more important that flatter pace or spin, is always going to be depth. I can hit flat or spinny but the key is finding the middle ground that gives me consistency of depth (which is what i’ve been working on)

I could hit faster but not without losing balance/control/consistency.

this coach is a utr13 i’m an 8.5... depth alone probably would keep in closer, but he literally has millions of more reps that i don’t have. but at least if i could get consistency of depth, that might help bump me 1-2+ utr?


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@nytennisaddict

How have I not seen this :)

Lovely hitting! I can relate to the difficulty you went through as my coach puts me through similar paces (but he has dodgy knees and in his 50s!).

That was 1.5 years ago - what would you say you've improved on up till now? What have you been working on specifically? Just interested.
 
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I went through a similar experience just last week against a top 300 Spanish junior now in his early 20s. Ground strokes were quite fast and the spin something I'm not used to, so much so that I had a sore wrist and hand, partly because my racket hand is dodgy af anyway. His movement was key, so many points I thought I had won for him to return with interest and obviously ball placement. I left quite content after almost 2 hours of high intensity tennis. Next time I play with this guy I'll record it, only problem is making the cuts so that it looks presentable.
 
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@nytennisaddict

How have I not seen this :)

Lovely hitting! I can relate to the difficulty you went through as my coach puts me through similar paces (but he has dodgy knees and in his 50s!).

That was 1.5 years ago - what would you say you've improved on up till now? What have you been working on specifically? Just interested.
thx!

top 3 focus in this priority:
1. serve
2. depth of groundies (height over net, spin to keep it in - in lieu of pace)
3. forecourt (mid court approach, volley, oh)

in general i need to be more deliberate in how i'm hitting, not just grind/counterpunch everything back
 
When the difference is so big a player like this will seem better than they are in reality and the worse player will seem even worse than he is.

Im not saying the dude is not great,he is, but against @nytennisaddict he looks better than he is, while @nytennisaddict looks worse than he is.

The reason for this is that @nytennisaddict strokes do not trouble him, they are rally balls for him, and he can get away with swinging at 50-60% effort at these balls which in retrospect increase his placement and accuracy by alot, which means he can basically hit very accurate spots and completely outplay him and make him run around like a child and force him to hit from tough spots and on the run.

But in reality, while he is far better than @nytennisaddict , this is basically probably the best way for him to beat @nytennisaddict the easiest, because hes placing the ball accurately and making him run and sprint and hit from tough spots until he makes an error or is so much off court that he can easily finish.

If he raised his level and started swinging like he does against equal opposition he would be winning points faster and hit more winners, but he would also make more errors also, so its not that easy like he can hit so much faster, he can but that would make him hit more errors and thats not wise, he plays as much as he has to and thats enough for him to get balls in, if he was swinging out it might have been even worse for him than playing like this.

If he was really swinging he would be hitting winners and the balls would probably trouble @nytennisaddict a bit, but he would also be prone to making unforced errors here and there, specially if @nytennisaddict can get a few balls back in succession, every new one raises the chance for an UE.

While with the way he plays now at 50-60% he basically can get 50 balls in play without missing and hes making @nytennisaddict run around with his placement and hit from tough spots and eventually miss.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
When the difference is so big a player like this will seem better than they are in reality and the worse player will seem even worse than he is.

Im not saying the dude is not great,he is, but against @nytennisaddict he looks better than he is, while @nytennisaddict looks worse than he is.

The reason for this is that @nytennisaddict strokes do not trouble him, they are rally balls for him, and he can get away with swinging at 50-60% effort at these balls which in retrospect increase his placement and accuracy by alot, which means he can basically hit very accurate spots and completely outplay him and make him run around like a child and force him to hit from tough spots and on the run.

But in reality, while he is far better than @nytennisaddict , this is basically probably the best way for him to beat @nytennisaddict the easiest, because hes placing the ball accurately and making him run and sprint and hit from tough spots until he makes an error or is so much off court that he can easily finish.

If he raised his level and started swinging like he does against equal opposition he would be winning points faster and hit more winners, but he would also make more errors also, so its not that easy like he can hit so much faster, he can but that would make him hit more errors and thats not wise, he plays as much as he has to and thats enough for him to get balls in, if he was swinging out it might have been even worse for him than playing like this.

If he was really swinging he would be hitting winners and the balls would probably trouble @nytennisaddict a bit, but he would also be prone to making unforced errors here and there, specially if @nytennisaddict can get a few balls back in succession, every new one raises the chance for an UE.

While with the way he plays now at 50-60% he basically can get 50 balls in play without missing and hes making @nytennisaddict run around with his placement and hit from tough spots and eventually miss.
No.

J
 
When the difference is so big a player like this will seem better than they are in reality and the worse player will seem even worse than he is.

Im not saying the dude is not great,he is, but against @nytennisaddict he looks better than he is, while @nytennisaddict looks worse than he is.

The reason for this is that @nytennisaddict strokes do not trouble him, they are rally balls for him, and he can get away with swinging at 50-60% effort at these balls which in retrospect increase his placement and accuracy by alot, which means he can basically hit very accurate spots and completely outplay him and make him run around like a child and force him to hit from tough spots and on the run.

But in reality, while he is far better than @nytennisaddict , this is basically probably the best way for him to beat @nytennisaddict the easiest, because hes placing the ball accurately and making him run and sprint and hit from tough spots until he makes an error or is so much off court that he can easily finish.

If he raised his level and started swinging like he does against equal opposition he would be winning points faster and hit more winners, but he would also make more errors also, so its not that easy like he can hit so much faster, he can but that would make him hit more errors and thats not wise, he plays as much as he has to and thats enough for him to get balls in, if he was swinging out it might have been even worse for him than playing like this.

If he was really swinging he would be hitting winners and the balls would probably trouble @nytennisaddict a bit, but he would also be prone to making unforced errors here and there, specially if @nytennisaddict can get a few balls back in succession, every new one raises the chance for an UE.

While with the way he plays now at 50-60% he basically can get 50 balls in play without missing and hes making @nytennisaddict run around with his placement and hit from tough spots and eventually miss.
You are partially correct...that you can't make assumptions of the weaker player because he is kinda over matched, even though he might be a terrific player compared to the gen pop. You are wrong though in saying that the better player looks better than he really is. The reality is you don't know. He might be playing at 20 or 30% of his real level. You'll know how good he is only when he is matched up against someone closer to his level.

If someone video taped your recent match and judged your ability by looking at your kick serves without knowing that you didn't intentionally serve faster because your opponent could not handle that, can they arrive at any sort of a reasonable conclusion on how good a player you really are?
 
hehe thx @pencilcheck

i used to hit hawaiian grip... ultra spinny, so this is very toned down in terms of spin!

more important that flatter pace or spin, is always going to be depth. I can hit flat or spinny but the key is finding the middle ground that gives me consistency of depth (which is what i’ve been working on)

I could hit faster but not without losing balance/control/consistency.

this coach is a utr13 i’m an 8.5... depth alone probably would keep in closer, but he literally has millions of more reps that i don’t have. but at least if i could get consistency of depth, that might help bump me 1-2+ utr?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You truly are a saint. You were close to a 5.0 when you posted this video. Yet you don't bristle at posters who admit that they just started playing, but tell you how your shot was too slow, and start giving you technical advice on what you could have done better to trouble your coach.
 
Yes.

When the player is better so much that he can play 60-70% its completely true what i said.

But in this case it probably is not and as @mcs1970 said if the guy plays at 30-40% because hes so much better then if he plays at 60-70 he would crush him even more, thats true.
I didn't say that. I don't know if he's playing at 30% or 90%. I don't know that if he were playing at 70% in this match, it would automatically mean that he would have a much tougher match against someone closer to his level like you're saying. For all you know, that 20-30% that he is leaving on the table might be the best part of his game. What I said is that none of us can make an informed decision on how good the better player really is, because we don't know at what gear he is playing, and what he is not really showing us until he is pushed.

So Jolly is correct here.
 
This guy is utr13 and that is a really high level of tennis, I often play (regular hitting partner) with a guy utr12 (former pro, davis cup player and now completing international in 40+).

Knowing the level of a utr12 player, I will state that the player @nytennisaddict is up against is just messing around with him, and not playing anywhere close to his best.

Anyway it is fun being up against high level players, and good tennis there @nytennisaddict

Im not saying the dude is not great,he is, but against @nytennisaddict he looks better than he is, while @nytennisaddict looks worse than he is.
My personal experience is that I am looking way better playing a guy 2 levels above my own level, than playing a guy 2 levels below (odd shots, inconsistent, junk balls, etc)

Cheers, Toby
 
I didn't say that. I don't know if he's playing at 30% or 90%. I don't know that if he were playing at 70% in this match, it would automatically mean that he would have a much tougher match against someone closer to his level like you're saying. For all you know, that 20-30% that he is leaving on the table might be the best part of his game. What I said is that none of us can make an informed decision on how good the better player really is, because we don't know at what gear he is playing, and what he is not really showing us until he is pushed.

So Jolly is correct here.
But I was speaking in general, its true that we dont know the % here.

But in general, if someone is not at a certain level above where he has way more reserves, just at a level that he is clearly better, then he is better off hitting for example serves at 70-75% with great placement if it forces alot of UE and aces.

If he started hitting at 90% wouldnt make sense, since his placement would worsen and he would not have the same % in.

Thats what I mean, I might have not written it that way at first.

But i now get what jolly meant and hes right about that.

But now that ive made my point clear, do you agree with this, and if not then why?
 
You truly are a saint. You were close to a 5.0 when you posted this video. Yet you don't bristle at posters who admit that they just started playing, but tell you how your shot was too slow, and start giving you technical advice on what you could have done better to trouble your coach.
I found myself getting haughty with @pencilcheck for @nytennisaddict , but then thought...wow, @nytennisaddict has a way cooler mindset than me. I've been playing for less than a year and the only thing comparable about our games is we both wear shoes.
 
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When the difference is so big a player like this will seem better than they are in reality and the worse player will seem even worse than he is.

Im not saying the dude is not great,he is, but against @nytennisaddict he looks better than he is, while @nytennisaddict looks worse than he is.

The reason for this is that @nytennisaddict strokes do not trouble him, they are rally balls for him, and he can get away with swinging at 50-60% effort at these balls which in retrospect increase his placement and accuracy by alot, which means he can basically hit very accurate spots and completely outplay him and make him run around like a child and force him to hit from tough spots and on the run.

But in reality, while he is far better than @nytennisaddict , this is basically probably the best way for him to beat @nytennisaddict the easiest, because hes placing the ball accurately and making him run and sprint and hit from tough spots until he makes an error or is so much off court that he can easily finish.

If he raised his level and started swinging like he does against equal opposition he would be winning points faster and hit more winners, but he would also make more errors also, so its not that easy like he can hit so much faster, he can but that would make him hit more errors and thats not wise, he plays as much as he has to and thats enough for him to get balls in, if he was swinging out it might have been even worse for him than playing like this.

If he was really swinging he would be hitting winners and the balls would probably trouble @nytennisaddict a bit, but he would also be prone to making unforced errors here and there, specially if @nytennisaddict can get a few balls back in succession, every new one raises the chance for an UE.

While with the way he plays now at 50-60% he basically can get 50 balls in play without missing and hes making @nytennisaddict run around with his placement and hit from tough spots and eventually miss.
i'd summarize it as "good players make lesser players look even worse" :p (like what tsit said about nadal, and what nadal looked like against djok)
 
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