Video Of Some Points

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Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
I'd be bringing tlm forward. Either drop shots when possible, or just short slices. Out of his comfort zone.
 

indianballer

Semi-Pro
You have to admit TLM is much more physical on court. He is playing a lot more balls. Shroud in that video both players are playing slice and charge. Old man's tennis.

I still say TLM grinds shroud and mango to pulp. People like to think they can counter certain styles but are usually mistaken. If shroud and mango were a level above TLM I would say yeah they can just hit short slices and low approach shots and win at the net. Problem is shroud,mango and TLM are close in tennis skill level. Shroud can slice and rush the net but his placement is not precise enough. His movement not good enough. I would say TLM gets a racket on every approach and he can just lob it back over his head. They won't be able to cover that due to poor movement. TLM will get to every ball because shroud or mango cannot hit the approach well enough. It will become a push fest with TLM mauling the other guys. Shroud and mango do not have the ground game to play back court with TLM and the ball he hits. The net game will be ineffective due to lack of skill and or movement. I'd bet money on it and I am broke.
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
You have to admit TLM is much more physical on court. He is playing a lot more balls. Shroud in that video both players are playing slice and charge. Old man's tennis.

I still say TLM grinds shroud and mango to pulp. People like to think they can counter certain styles but are usually mistaken. If shroud and mango were a level above TLM I would say yeah they can just hit short slices and low approach shots and win at the net. Problem is shroud,mango and TLM are close in tennis skill level. Shroud can slice and rush the net but his placement is not precise enough. His movement not good enough. I would say TLM gets a racket on every approach and he can just lob it back over his head. They won't be able to cover that due to poor movement. TLM will get to every ball because shroud or mango cannot hit the approach well enough. It will become a push fest with TLM mauling the other guys. Shroud and mango do not have the ground game to play back court with TLM and the ball he hits. The net game will be ineffective due to lack of skill and or movement. I'd bet money on it and I am broke.
That's the way I would think it would play out. I have played against quite a few players that use their style and once I adjust I don't have much problem.

Because I have faced this quite a bit I have become pretty good at lobbing. Plus I rarely if ever play against older guys that cannot move well. I would not have to hit that close to the lines to get it by them. I also think that my topspin would give them fits.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
TLM would be like a food prcessor. Just grinding shroud and mango to bits. Little by little.
That's how I win most of my matches. I grind my opponent down. By the middle of the 2nd set they get tired and start going for to much or start going to the net right away trying to shorten the points.
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
^^ While I was in Spain I saw plenty of guys in the O60s and O70s succeeding playing a slow-paced, grinding style of tennis. They tended to be very fit and mentally tough, as you'd imagine. However, they had the advantage of having played on clay for most of their lives so their bodies weren't beat up. But this style is the predominant style of tennis even in super-senior tennis on clay. Lots of guys succeed with this style in the US on hard courts in the 60+ age groups as well, but... bodies do tend to break down eventually here in the US as a result of the surface. Just my observations.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
We can speculate all we want but until the match is played, you never know. Some matchups are just bad for some people. TLM needs to fly down to San Pablo to remove all doubt.
 

coupergear

Professional
I'd be bringing tlm forward. Either drop shots when possible, or just short slices. Out of his comfort zone.
Yeah, easier said than done. Agree with TLM, I think moonball to the backhand tactic is highly effective at 3.5-4.0, where most guys lack strong volley, overhead and dropshot skills, and movement may be limited. The other skill 3.5/4.0 lack is taking the ball on the rise to cut off the angle and time of the moonballer. We see in the videos, TLM and his opponents are way back, like near the backdrop, rolling away.

Ultimately though, with just a bit more skill with the hands, say a 4.5-- the moonballer is solved. It's sort of like the junkballer argument--you can last up to a point with a limited but very honed skillset, but at higher levels you'll get broken down. Also, from the mental perspective, some guys are too proud to spin junk or short stuff back to the moonballer. They want to prove they can outplay a guy at his own game, rather than make adjustments. However, more often I think it's just an issue of not having the skills to combat an effective tactic at the rating level.
 

Windsor

Rookie
TLM is going to basically maul San Pablo 4.0.. let's get real here.
My view on the basis of the limited evidence available; Tlm v Mango would be close, 50/50 kind of. I actually would give to Mango a tiny edge as he looks more skilled on serve and technically more sound. Tlm V Shroud, I think tlm would win this comfortably. Shraud has some good shots but his movement is too limited to compete effectively at 4.0 for a whole match. Tlm v leed would be a stroll in the park, tlm to win this one easy.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Papa Mango is a 4.5 player. Just because LeeD says he is 4.0 doesn't make it so. 4.5 players may be rated 4.0 for a variety of reasons, especially once they grow older.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, easier said than done. Agree with TLM, I think moonball to the backhand tactic is highly effective at 3.5-4.0, where most guys lack strong volley, overhead and dropshot skills, and movement may be limited. The other skill 3.5/4.0 lack is taking the ball on the rise to cut off the angle and time of the moonballer. We see in the videos, TLM and his opponents are way back, like near the backdrop, rolling away.

Ultimately though, with just a bit more skill with the hands, say a 4.5-- the moonballer is solved. It's sort of like the junkballer argument--you can last up to a point with a limited but very honed skillset, but at higher levels you'll get broken down. Also, from the mental perspective, some guys are too proud to spin junk or short stuff back to the moonballer. They want to prove they can outplay a guy at his own game, rather than make adjustments. However, more often I think it's just an issue of not having the skills to combat an effective tactic at the rating level.
I would say this is pretty accurate the 4.5 level players and up know how to handle topspin and have different ways to break my game down.
 

indianballer

Semi-Pro
Wjat happens if TLM plays Shroud or Mango AT San Pablo? Then it would be like Nadal vs. Sampras. . TLM would become a 7.0 player along with the rest of LeeDs buddies. And Darryle of course
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Speculate all you want.
Fact is, Shroud and Papa play USTA 4.0 League tennis, so they're around 4.0.
Papa is pretty good. We've played maybe 15 different 11 point tiebreaker's now (first to 11), and he wins easily 8 of them. He comes up with some shots you'd need to see to believe, but he does it.
40 years of age, with some quickness, trumps 66 most times.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
I'd have to give an edge to TLM over Shroud based on what was displayed for our viewing. But it would be an interesting match regardless. Perhaps Sureshs can be the ball girl for the match?
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Wjat happens if TLM plays Shroud or Mango AT San Pablo? Then it would be like Nadal vs. Sampras. . TLM would become a 7.0 player along with the rest of LeeDs buddies. And Darryle of course
I don't know that San Pablo group are way out of my league.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, easier said than done. Agree with TLM, I think moonball to the backhand tactic is highly effective at 3.5-4.0, where most guys lack strong volley, overhead and dropshot skills, and movement may be limited. The other skill 3.5/4.0 lack is taking the ball on the rise to cut off the angle and time of the moonballer. We see in the videos, TLM and his opponents are way back, like near the backdrop, rolling away.

Ultimately though, with just a bit more skill with the hands, say a 4.5-- the moonballer is solved. It's sort of like the junkballer argument--you can last up to a point with a limited but very honed skillset, but at higher levels you'll get broken down. Also, from the mental perspective, some guys are too proud to spin junk or short stuff back to the moonballer. They want to prove they can outplay a guy at his own game, rather than make adjustments. However, more often I think it's just an issue of not having the skills to combat an effective tactic at the rating level.
A lot of guys do back up and are not good at playing topspin off the rise but my hitting partner in this video stays on the baseline most of the time and plays shots off the rise very well.

 

BretH

Semi-Pro
I dunno - it seemed effective enough but my opinion would be to develop a shot a little closer to the net and flatter than many of the forehands i saw. They bought time and were not point-losing shots, but did little to advance your point. But again, Federer used that shot quite effective against Djokovic today :)
 

coupergear

Professional
A lot of guys do back up and are not good at playing topspin off the rise but my hitting partner in this video stays on the baseline most of the time and plays shots off the rise very well.

He's trying to take on rise, obviously not interested in the moonball game. He drives the ball flatter in general. But he still has no net game to follow up a good redirect on the rise, and not big enough to hit through your superb defense. So still gaps. What's your score when you play him? Looked close from highlights.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
He's trying to take on rise, obviously not interested in the moonball game. He drives the ball flatter in general. But he still has no net game to follow up a good redirect on the rise, and not big enough to hit through your superb defense. So still gaps. What's your score when you play him? Looked close from highlights.
He wins more than I do. I can battle him pretty close but he is the better player.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
A lot of guys do back up and are not good at playing topspin off the rise but my hitting partner in this video stays on the baseline most of the time and plays shots off the rise very well.
Several great backhands on the rise, really like him going for those confidently. Overall seems this guy isn't playing 100% effort and not picking every chance to give you hard times - more keen to play the game. Which is good. Great partner willing to hit with you, beeing slightly ahead in terms of level, while having fun in playing rather than just winning. Good for you!
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I dunno - it seemed effective enough but my opinion would be to develop a shot a little closer to the net and flatter than many of the forehands i saw. They bought time and were not point-losing shots, but did little to advance your point. But again, Federer used that shot quite effective against Djokovic today :)
I will flatten my shots out sometimes especially when I get in the court, here are a couple I hit flatter.

 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
tlm, your serve seems to have gotten a lot better. Your game really is better suited for clay. I would think indoors/hard courts would be your worst surface. Of course, you seem to run pretty well on the indoor court. Clay/hardtru requires a different set of movement skills.

I find the suggestions about drawing him to the net somewhat amusing. Not that easy to do, unless you are Fed. You end up giving him a lot of sitters.

It's hard to judge shot quality on video. His loopy shots look attackable by a decent 4.5 or better player, but the guys he is hitting with are that good and don't seem to be able to do much with them. Perhaps I am biased because I played a guy with shots like his in my first tournament in my return to tennis and he killed me.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
tlm, your serve seems to have gotten a lot better. Your game really is better suited for clay. I would think indoors/hard courts would be your worst surface. Of course, you seem to run pretty well on the indoor court. Clay/hardtru requires a different set of movement skills.

I find the suggestions about drawing him to the net somewhat amusing. Not that easy to do, unless you are Fed. You end up giving him a lot of sitters.

It's hard to judge shot quality on video. His loopy shots look attackable by a decent 4.5 or better player, but the guys he is hitting with are that good and don't seem to be able to do much with them. Perhaps I am biased because I played a guy with shots like his in my first tournament in my return to tennis and he killed me.
You are right indoor hard hard courts are my worst surface. I usually change my string set up some for more power and after a month or so of playing indoors I start hitting more aggressively and flattening out my shots more. I play better outdoors, the big servers and aggressive players are not as good outdoors. Plus my shots kick up a lot more outside when it is warm. Unfortunately there are very few clay courts in my area and there are no public clay courts, but I would love to play on clay.

Your also right my hitting partner can take my shots off the rise about as good as anybody I have played against. Even though he is used to my shots he still has trouble with them at times. He laughs when many here call those shots weak moonballs. He says that watching them on video and actually playing against them is a lot different, he thinks many would have a different opinion if they hit against me.

I have played against a lot of different styles and have had guys try hitting me short chips and slices to draw me in. I actually like to get in the court on short balls. That's why I hit the looping topspin shots side to side hoping for the short ball or error. As far as serving I can serve bigger at times and I serve faster indoors, but I hate 2nd serving a high % of the time so I usually just tone down the first serve some to get it in more and start the point. I have to much of a high % stay consistent mind set.
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
You seem to be pretty good though, I just don't get why you moonball.
I picked the game up late in life and have limited skills. In my early years I worked on gunning it out more and hitting flat winner type shots and I got decent at it. But then I joined a 3.5 club team and started playing league matches. I thought I could rip big forehands and beat my opponents, but I found out that even at this level most guys were very consistent. When you add up the winners that you hit with errors you make and the amount of shots that you think are winners but still come back it is a losing strategy. Unless you are really good at it.

Then when I learned to hit more topspin on the ball I could finally take full swings and keep the ball in. But as you can see I took the brushing up to an extreme degree and end up with high looping shots that many call moonballs. I enjoy taking big cuts at the ball and I can do that with this style consistently. Using this method I take the net out of the picture and with all the topspin my shots rarely go long.

At the same time I found that most club players hate the jumping topspin shots and many cannot handle them well. So I worked on hitting more topspin with more force trying to make the ball kick up violently and it ended up being very effective. My last year in 3.5 my record was 23 and 2 and won most matches easily so I moved up to 4.0 and still have good success with this method. I hit looping topspin back and forth then throw in backhand slices and short chips and it is pretty effective.

I can play a full 3 sets of this style and many opponents will wear down and become frustrated and start making a lot of errors. I go for winners but only when it is a high % shot and I am in the court with time. I know this style is not pretty and my strokes are funky looking but I use what I have. I would love to be able to win points by being able to rip winners after only a couple shots. Which I do if I am playing a weak enough opponent or guys that can't move well. But in the competive leagues I play in there are no opponents like that.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
TLM is posting the same videos over and over again. We need some new material dude, even if it all looks the same.
Okay I was just using some old clips to show examples of me hitting more aggressive shots. I will do some more filming this indoor season, but I need to do something different and try to not make it look all the same. Lol
 

beltsman

Legend
I picked the game up late in life and have limited skills. In my early years I worked on gunning it out more and hitting flat winner type shots and I got decent at it. But then I joined a 3.5 club team and started playing league matches. I thought I could rip big forehands and beat my opponents, but I found out that even at this level most guys were very consistent. When you add up the winners that you hit with errors you make and the amount of shots that you think are winners but still come back it is a losing strategy. Unless you are really good at it.

Then when I learned to hit more topspin on the ball I could finally take full swings and keep the ball in. But as you can see I took the brushing up to an extreme degree and end up with high looping shots that many call moonballs. I enjoy taking big cuts at the ball and I can do that with this style consistently. Using this method I take the net out of the picture and with all the topspin my shots rarely go long.

At the same time I found that most club players hate the jumping topspin shots and many cannot handle them well. So I worked on hitting more topspin with more force trying to make the ball kick up violently and it ended up being very effective. My last year in 3.5 my record was 23 and 2 and won most matches easily so I moved up to 4.0 and still have good success with this method. I hit looping topspin back and forth then throw in backhand slices and short chips and it is pretty effective.

I can play a full 3 sets of this style and many opponents will wear down and become frustrated and start making a lot of errors. I go for winners but only when it is a high % shot and I am in the court with time. I know this style is not pretty and my strokes are funky looking but I use what I have. I would love to be able to win points by being able to rip winners after only a couple shots. Which I do if I am playing a weak enough opponent or guys that can't move well. But in the competive leagues I play in there are no opponents like that.
Fair enough.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Several great backhands on the rise, really like him going for those confidently. Overall seems this guy isn't playing 100% effort and not picking every chance to give you hard times - more keen to play the game. Which is good. Great partner willing to hit with you, beeing slightly ahead in terms of level, while having fun in playing rather than just winning. Good for you!
Ya he is a great hitting partner we usually hit at least once a week all year long. He is so smooth and effortless it does look like he is not going 100%. I told him that some have mentioned like you that he is taking it easy on me, but he claims no way he is going all out. But not sure if he is being totally honest about that.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Okay I was just using some old clips to show examples of me hitting more aggressive shots. I will do some more filming this indoor season, but I need to do something different and try to not make it look all the same. Lol
Wear a shirt with sleeves? Ahahhahahaa...JK.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
I already did if you notice two of the clips above I am not wearing sleeveless shirts. When you arm the ball as much as I do I need my muscles free to move and not be restricted by my shirt. Lol
You see?!...I didn't even know that was you! The sleeves threw me off.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Who wins between your Indian friend and that high school kid?
They have not played points in a year or two but my buddy would beat him pretty easy then. But they have not played recently because my friend is his high school coach. Most coaches I know don't play actuall matches with their players.

If they played now the coach would still win but he would have to play a lot harder than in the past. The kid has really improved, I will do some filming of us playing and I will show some clips of him pushing me around the court. I used to be able to beat him but I think those days are gone. He will be beating me and some of the guys at my club that used to beat him.

He has been working with one of the local college kids for a couple months now. This guy is from Mexico and is a very solid player. I have been at the courts when the are doing drills, wow I got tired just watching my young friend Nate. This guy was using a lot of the Spanish style of coaching, a lot of hand feeds and making the kid move around a lot and improve his footwork and set up. It was impressive watching this guy coach, I am sure the kid is going to improve a lot.
 

oble

Hall of Fame
I will do some more filming this indoor season, but I need to do something different and try to not make it look all the same.
Haters gonna hate. I don't find anything wrong with looping top spin shots if that wins you matches and that's the style you enjoy playing.
On the other hand, have you thought of trying out the Spanish style drills that you saw the kid do? I think incorporating that with your natural speed will make you an even better player.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Haters gonna hate. I don't find anything wrong with looping top spin shots if that wins you matches and that's the style you enjoy playing.
On the other hand, have you thought of trying out the Spanish style drills that you saw the kid do? I think incorporating that with your natural speed will make you an even better player.
Yes I do want to try some of those drills, your right it would definitely help my game. It was impressive watching, you have to learn how to hit the ball hard off those hand feeds. Plus he would have the kid start behind the cone right at the baseline in the middle of the court then the coach would toss balls to one side or the other, and after every shot you have to run back behind the cone. Then over and over again this will really improve the footwork.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
TLM, you had some nice angles on that 2nd to last video.
I have worked on hitting better angles because I have found sometimes it's easier to hit the ball past your opponent off the side of the court as opposed to hitting it through them. By using a lot of topspin I can create some pretty good angles.
 

President

Legend
Have you been working on using more weight transfer/hip rotation and loading up more with your legs on the forehand since the video in the OP? It's been a while, just curious. I think if you get your body a little more involved you could really have a very heavy forehand.
 
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