Video Of Some Points

Have you been working on using more weight transfer/hip rotation and loading up more with your legs on the forehand since the video in the OP? It's been a while, just curious. I think if you get your body a little more involved you could really have a very heavy forehand.
Ya your right I need to get some more weight into the shots. I have been working on it and I found that I can do that some while just hitting around, but it will take a while before I do it naturally.
 
tlm, just curious but what style player or shot gives you the most trouble? Personally, my least favorite is David Ferrer-style counterpunchers who run everything down.
 
tlm, just curious but what style player or shot gives you the most trouble? Personally, my least favorite is David Ferrer-style counterpunchers who run everything down.
Well I am kind and of a David Ferrer style player myself but I have ran into some that could outlast me. But not many I don't mind playing counterpunchers it gets me in a rythum. When I play some of the 4.5-5.0 level players they will rush me with their big serves and hard and fast groundstrokes. Plus they know how to approach and finish points at the net.

They will not let me get into a rythum, I am to busy playing defense and scrambling. I have found that even some of the better guys do not like to hit the looping topspin shots that I use, but they know how to keep me off balance enough that I don't end up hitting to many of them.

I have a lot of the 4.0 level player's that try and use this strategy against me and some are successful, but most are not good enough or consistent enough to be really effective.
 
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I'd have to give an edge to TLM over Shroud based on what was displayed for our viewing. But it would be an interesting match regardless. Perhaps Sureshs can be the ball girl for the match?
Suresh as a ball girl....priceless. Thanks for searing that image in my head!

Based on the vids, its a solid conclusion I think that tlm wins easily. But there are some big assumptions that may not be true:

1. The vids are actual representation of skill level- Some are highly edited and some arent. You can edit most vids in such a way that the level of play looks better than reality. I like reality because I try to learn from those vids.

And there is an assumption that the vids show play that would be like an actual match, Maybe everyone views a practice match as just a match with nothing on the line but the strategies and tactics are the same as an actual match. I certainly differ from that view in that I always try stuff I might never use in a match as a way to practice things. Example, in that one vid you see me serving with feet parallel to the base line...lol I don't serve like that and was just trying some things. And I think Mango just phones it in when we play most of the time....

2. Movement is lacking- Certainly the vid shows that movement for Shroud is an issue. It is for sure, however its more an injury thing (chondramalacia) , and just recently I figured out the fix! So instead of playing 1-2 times a week if even and wearing 2 knee braces, I just played 3 days in a row with little to no pain and no braces at all!! This is a huge positive feed back loop in that now I can do the lunges and squats, etc that will get my legs strong. The chondramalacia isnt excruciating but it causes enough pain to affect every shot from the serve to the volley, to even the split step. One of the reasons I left me falling in that vid is that I fell because the knee wouldnt bend and I fell on purpose to protect it. And as I noted when I got up, I was loose! So in the past 5 days I have been like God. No activity for eons and suddenly in 7 days boom....I went from not much to averaging 2.5 miles walked a day, and playing 2 sets, hitting the wall for 1 1/2 hour and hitting singles for 2 hours all in the last 5 days. I'll never win any foot races but respectable movement is right around the corner. And FWIW Mango is more lazy than slow. He is way faster than in the vid. Said another way, no one playing with him would say he is slow.

And if you look at the positioning we are hugging the baseline not standing 6 ft back playing moonballs so the time will be less for mango and I and we will look slower than if we stood farther back and had to play higher balls.

Finally I figure I am wearing like 10-20 extra lbs in those vids with the extra layers and all the sweat they soak up, and all the water I drink (seriously I had one 3 setter where I drank over 2 gallons). In a meaningful match I would not be wearing all that stuff, and would change shirts as needed.

3. Old man tennis can't win- First off I don' t think we were playing old man tennis. Never got the memo that Serve and Volley, Chip and Charge became old man tennis. I always thought old man's tennis was dropshot, lob, dropshot, lob, etc. Anyhow there is precedence of serve and volley, chip and charge beating loopy baseline grinding. Just ask Dustin Brown!!

4. Loopy topspin moonballs would be troubling- Safe assumption especially to the BH for most players. But look closely at that vid. Look where those balls I am hitting bh winners are...they are chest high and I can get some great shots. Sure the spin would give me fits at first but I would adapt and well my bh is pretty unique and with a heavy sw racket and a strong grip I think I can handle that spin better than most 4.0s. Years of hugging the baseline really helps you take balls on the rise...

5. Slice is weak- Actually I think a short slice can be effective against most opponents especially grinders and agree with Atilla about getting TLM to the net. And I skipped watching tennis for many years but I think I read that Fed dominated because of his short slices.

6. Serve and Returns don't matter- Something like 80% of points are won in the 1st 3 hits- Serve, return, and next shot. I think my serve is tougher than it looks on vid and would get my share of easy points. And I think I get some solid returns.

Anyhow I agree that it would be interesting. TLM has some huge advantages with his fitness and his game in general He has an identity as a grinder with a simple strategy to wear people out and get free points. While he has spent time on maximizing the tools he has, I have been trying to develop new tools and improve my strokes and change is tough.
 
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I agree with Shroud about 1 important point. Edited videos are far different than actual videos with all the bad and ugly points. At recreational levels below 5.0, it is difficult to say who will win until the match is actually played.
 
Suresh as a ball girl....priceless. Thanks for searing that image in my head!

Based on the vids, its a solid conclusion I think that tlm wins easily. But there are some big assumptions that may not be true:

1. The vids are actual representation of skill level- Some are highly edited and some arent. You can edit most vids in such a way that the level of play looks better than reality. I like reality because I try to learn from those vids.

And there is an assumption that the vids show play that would be like an actual match, Maybe everyone views a practice match as just a match with nothing on the line but the strategies and tactics are the same as an actual match. I certainly differ from that view in that I always try stuff I might never use in a match as a way to practice things. Example, in that one vid you see me serving with feet parallel to the base line...lol I don't serve like that and was just trying some things. And I think Mango just phones it in when we play most of the time....

2. Movement is lacking- Certainly the vid shows that movement for Shroud is an issue. It is for sure, however its more an injury thing (chondramalacia) , and just recently I figured out the fix! So instead of playing 1-2 times a week if even and wearing 2 knee braces, I just played 3 days in a row with little to no pain and no braces at all!! This is a huge positive feed back loop in that now I can do the lunges and squats, etc that will get my legs strong. The chondramalacia isnt excruciating but it causes enough pain to affect every shot from the serve to the volley, to even the split step. One of the reasons I left me falling in that vid is that I fell because the knee wouldnt bend and I fell on purpose to protect it. And as I noted when I got up, I was loose! So in the past 5 days I have been like God. No activity for eons and suddenly in 7 days boom....I went from not much to averaging 2.5 miles walked a day, and playing 2 sets, hitting the wall for 1 1/2 hour and hitting singles for 2 hours all in the last 5 days. I'll never win any foot races but respectable movement is right around the corner. And FWIW Mango is more lazy than slow. He is way faster than in the vid. Said another way, no one playing with him would say he is slow.

And if you look at the positioning we are hugging the baseline not standing 6 ft back playing moonballs so the time will be less for mango and I and we will look slower than if we stood farther back and had to play higher balls.

Finally I figure I am wearing like 10-20 extra lbs in those vids with the extra layers and all the sweat they soak up, and all the water I drink (seriously I had one 3 setter where I drank over 2 gallons). In a meaningful match I would not be wearing all that stuff, and would change shirts as needed.

3. Old man tennis can't win- First off I don' t think we were playing old man tennis. Never got the memo that Serve and Volley, Chip and Charge became old man tennis. I always thought old man's tennis was dropshot, lob, dropshot, lob, etc. Anyhow there is precedence of serve and volley, chip and charge beating loopy baseline grinding. Just ask Dustin Brown!!

4. Loopy topspin moonballs would be troubling- Safe assumption especially to the BH for most players. But look closely at that vid. Look where those balls I am hitting bh winners are...they are chest high and I can get some great shots. Sure the spin would give me fits at first but I would adapt and well my bh is pretty unique and with a heavy sw racket and a strong grip I think I can handle that spin better than most 4.0s. Years of hugging the baseline really helps you take balls on the rise...

5. Slice is weak- Actually I think a short slice can be effective against most opponents especially grinders and agree with Atilla about getting TLM to the net. And I skipped watching tennis for many years but I think I read that Fed dominated because of his short slices.

6. Serve and Returns don't matter- Something like 80% of points are won in the 1st 3 hits- Serve, return, and next shot. I think my serve is tougher than it looks on vid and would get my share of easy points. And I think I get some solid returns.

Anyhow I agree that it would be interesting. TLM has some huge advantages with his fitness and his game in general He has an identity as a grinder with a simple strategy to wear people out and get free points. While he has spent time on maximizing the tools he has, I have been trying to develop new tools and improve my strokes and change is tough.
You did hit some good backhands on some balls that were up a little. But believe me my shots jump a whole lot higher than chest high, unless you can get on top of every shot and take it on the rise which is still a tough shot. As you say video does not show everything my shots jump up with a lot more force than what the video shows.

My game is not solely based on wearing people out, that is part of it but I force a lot of errors with the high bouncing shots. When I am playing someone that I feel is definitely better than me I will use the wear them down method more, but I pretty much always make the match physical to some degree. Unless I am playing somebody way better than me and they can prevent me from playing my game altogether.

Like I already mentioned I have had guys try to pull me in with shorter slices a lot. I am surprised that some here think that others would not have already tried this strategy. I can attack those short balls with no problem, that is the advantage of using a lot of topspin I can pick a short ball up and get it to dip right back down.
 
Shroud wrote:
2. Movement is lacking- Certainly the vid shows that movement for Shroud is an issue. It is for sure, however its more an injury thing (chondramalacia) , and just recently I figured out the fix! So instead of playing 1-2 times a week if even and wearing 2 knee braces, I just played 3 days in a row with little to no pain and no braces at all!! This is a huge positive feed back loop in that now I can do the lunges and squats, etc that will get my legs strong. The chondramalacia isnt excruciating but it causes enough pain to affect every shot from the serve to the volley, to even the split step. One of the reasons I left me falling in that vid is that I fell because the knee wouldnt bend and I fell on purpose to protect it. And as I noted when I got up, I was loose! So in the past 5 days I have been like God. No activity for eons and suddenly in 7 days boom....I went from not much to averaging 2.5 miles walked a day, and playing 2 sets, hitting the wall for 1 1/2 hour and hitting singles for 2 hours all in the last 5 days. I'll never win any foot races but respectable movement is right around the corner. And FWIW Mango is more lazy than slow. He is way faster than in the vid. Said another way, no one playing with him would say he is slow.

Very glad for you Shroud, injuries can make a tennis player 1/2 of what he really is..It seems that healing has given you new life and it shows in your videos
 
You did hit some good backhands on some balls that were up a little. But believe me my shots jump a whole lot higher than chest high, unless you can get on top of every shot and take it on the rise which is still a tough shot. As you say video does not show everything my shots jump up with a lot more force than what the video shows.

My game is not solely based on wearing people out, that is part of it but I force a lot of errors with the high bouncing shots. When I am playing someone that I feel is definitely better than me I will use the wear them down method more, but I pretty much always make the match physical to some degree. Unless I am playing somebody way better than me and they can prevent me from playing my game altogether.

Like I already mentioned I have had guys try to pull me in with shorter slices a lot. I am surprised that some here think that others would not have already tried this strategy. I can attack those short balls with no problem, that is the advantage of using a lot of topspin I can pick a short ball up and get it to dip right back down.
I think your main weakness (along most other players to be fair) is the handling of low balls on your FH side (not short necessarily, but low). You may hit them, and they may go in, but from the videos, I haven't seen a suitable handling with low balls - they sit up nicely for the opponent, or at least they lose their 'kick' . In this regard I would happily slice to your forehand from either wing - (if you can play FH slice then you have great options on how not only to nullify this but turn it into your favour...). On the whole I like your game, its solid and consistent.
 
I think your main weakness (along most other players to be fair) is the handling of low balls on your FH side (not short necessarily, but low). You may hit them, and they may go in, but from the videos, I haven't seen a suitable handling with low balls - they sit up nicely for the opponent, or at least they lose their 'kick' . In this regard I would happily slice to your forehand from either wing - (if you can play FH slice then you have great options on how not only to nullify this but turn it into your favour...). On the whole I like your game, its solid and consistent.
If the shots are to low for me I will slice them back. I can slice pretty good off both sides.
 
If the shots are to low for me I will slice them back. I can slice pretty good off both sides.

Thats good.

But there are times when you're not.

Take your 'edited video' on 1.03. You're still hitting a low slice as a top spin. In this case your opponent mistimed it but I'm not convinced there was any kick there (hard to tell really) - im sure you will tell me otherwise :) FYI not sure if you're aware of this? In this maneuver your left leg is behind your right leg which will keep you off-balance, hence why you move back during your shot. Pretty easily done in this situation, I do it myself - something good to be aware of though to try and correct, footwork can be very tricky!
 
Thats good.

But there are times when you're not.

Take your 'edited video' on 1.03. You're still hitting a low slice as a top spin. In this case your opponent mistimed it but I'm not convinced there was any kick there (hard to tell really) - im sure you will tell me otherwise :) FYI not sure if you're aware of this? In this maneuver your left leg is behind your right leg which will keep you off-balance, hence why you move back during your shot. Pretty easily done in this situation, I do it myself - something good to be aware of though to try and correct, footwork can be very tricky!
Yes on that shot my buddy mistimed his swing, he would normally make that shot. I didn't hit that shot real well but i did get it deep with some kick on it. Not a great shot but I think good enough for that situation.
 
Thats good.

But there are times when you're not.

Take your 'edited video' on 1.03. You're still hitting a low slice as a top spin. In this case your opponent mistimed it but I'm not convinced there was any kick there (hard to tell really) - im sure you will tell me otherwise :) FYI not sure if you're aware of this? In this maneuver your left leg is behind your right leg which will keep you off-balance, hence why you move back during your shot. Pretty easily done in this situation, I do it myself - something good to be aware of though to try and correct, footwork can be very tricky!
Yes footwork is pretty tricky and mine is pretty bad.
 
Shroud wrote:
2. Movement is lacking- Certainly the vid shows that movement for Shroud is an issue. It is for sure, however its more an injury thing (chondramalacia) , and just recently I figured out the fix! So instead of playing 1-2 times a week if even and wearing 2 knee braces, I just played 3 days in a row with little to no pain and no braces at all!! This is a huge positive feed back loop in that now I can do the lunges and squats, etc that will get my legs strong. The chondramalacia isnt excruciating but it causes enough pain to affect every shot from the serve to the volley, to even the split step. One of the reasons I left me falling in that vid is that I fell because the knee wouldnt bend and I fell on purpose to protect it. And as I noted when I got up, I was loose! So in the past 5 days I have been like God. No activity for eons and suddenly in 7 days boom....I went from not much to averaging 2.5 miles walked a day, and playing 2 sets, hitting the wall for 1 1/2 hour and hitting singles for 2 hours all in the last 5 days. I'll never win any foot races but respectable movement is right around the corner. And FWIW Mango is more lazy than slow. He is way faster than in the vid. Said another way, no one playing with him would say he is slow.

Very glad for you Shroud, injuries can make a tennis player 1/2 of what he really is..It seems that healing has given you new life and it shows in your videos
Thanks comeback!!!

Played for 2 hours today and its the 4th straight day in a row!!! Still not 100% but getting there

Though i was wearing 2 knee braces in most of my vids and havent filmed any recently without the braces

Yeah not being able to plant without pain messes up a bunch of things in tennis!!
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
THREE days in a row and I"m in line for the infirmary, like a week in bed. Mentally, I'd be wrecked.
3 days a week with a day off in between is fine, meaning my tennis goes downhill without a stop.
 
Wow I just watched that video again. These are the guys that would destroy me? That's pretty hilarious Lee, this looks like old mans tennis. Neither can move much and half the groundstrokes are chops and slices. It's pretty obvious that they run to the net and finish the point one way or the other because neither have the conditioning, movement or groundstrokes to play the backcourt game. You know it's bad when a player goes back on a routine lob and falls down.
You guys should just play each other instead of engaging in this internet 'smack' talk as it's pretty meaningless. At 4.0 (or whatever level you are), certain styles of play don't necessarily match up well with other styles and have a greater influence over the outcome compared to higher levels of play. I'm sure if they played you and had some smarts, they'd realized that you recycle the ball a lot, give it a lot of air but don't really move the ball around much and rarely hit winners. I'm sure they could come up with a strategy to deal with that (as long as their games don't self destruct whilst doing so).
 
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No one is going to travel that far for generic 4.0 tennis. TLM would beat Shroud easily - dunno about Papa Mango.. Better to do a few things well - then several things mediocre. In singles those heavy topspin forehands are going to be a nightmare. Sure in theory you can take it off the rise - or take them out of the air and one guy just ripped TLM apart with the second tactic. But in practice most rec players just don't practice those things enough..

TLM moves well too - that one forehand out wide that he ran down against most players - even younger ones that's a winner..
 
You guys should just play each other instead of engaging in this internet 'smack' talk as it's pretty meaningless. At 4.0 (or whatever level you are), certain styles of play don't necessarily match up well with other styles and have a greater influence over the outcome compared to higher levels of play. I'm sure if they played you and had some smarts, they'd realized that you recycle the ball a lot, give it a lot of air but don't really move the ball around much and rarely hit winners. I'm sure they could come up with a strategy to deal with that (as long as their games don't self destruct whilst doing so).
No doubt at my low level of play they would surely come up with a strategy to beat me. I mean between the way I recycle the ball with a lot of air under hit and I don't move it around much plus rarely hit any winners it would be an easy win for those guys. Really I imagine that probably 99% of the guys on this site could beat me without any problems.
 
No doubt at my low level of play they would surely come up with a strategy to beat me.
Well, you won't know until you play each other.

Where do you live? If you live near me, I'd be willing to have a hit with you. I'd be curious to see whether a certain single strategy would neutralize your style of play.
 
THREE days in a row and I"m in line for the infirmary, like a week in bed. Mentally, I'd be wrecked.
3 days a week with a day off in between is fine, meaning my tennis goes downhill without a stop.
Me too at least a few weeks ago. Was just playing USTA matches only...so once a week.

Hit with Joaquin today at San Pablo for nearly 2 hours. We were doing BH crosscourt drills and some old dudes showed up. They were talking to each other about the bh and how to "hit like that". His BH is as good as mine so the drill is rather good...

Work in progress but damn it feels good to be playing and still walking :)
 
No one is going to travel that far for generic 4.0 tennis. TLM would beat Shroud easily - dunno about Papa Mango.. Better to do a few things well - then several things mediocre. In singles those heavy topspin forehands are going to be a nightmare. Sure in theory you can take it off the rise - or take them out of the air and one guy just ripped TLM apart with the second tactic. But in practice most rec players just don't practice those things enough..

TLM moves well too - that one forehand out wide that he ran down against most players - even younger ones that's a winner..
I would be happy to hit with a lot of players here, but like you said who would travel far to play a 4.0 level hack fest. Lol
 
TLM just curious - what is your racquet spec?
I use a Wilson six one 95 team which weighs 11.2 ounces and is 2 points headlight. I am now using head gravity which is the best spin string I have ever used, I string it at 70 lbs.
 
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That guy hitting against TLM in the last video he posted is really strong - the way he easily runs down those moonballs - and hits nice shots back is very impressive. I think TLM's serve looks strong. Looks like - high 90s might hit 100.. (guesstimate - I didn't count frames).

Lots of shots have counters - but most people can't hit em. TLM has a big 'not used to this' advantage.. I don't play against anyone who hits heavy topspin shots all the time - and most people don't. Rec men generally like to hit hard and low shots.. With enough topspin to keep the ball in.. When not doing that they hit some defensive shots to stay in points. But heavy topspin that really kicks up - not common at all.
 
That guy hitting against TLM in the last video he posted is really strong - the way he easily runs down those moonballs - and hits nice shots back is very impressive. I think TLM's serve looks strong. Looks like - high 90s might hit 100.. (guesstimate - I didn't count frames).

Lots of shots have counters - but most people can't hit em. TLM has a big 'not used to this' advantage.. I don't play against anyone who hits heavy topspin shots all the time - and most people don't. Rec men generally like to hit hard and low shots.. With enough topspin to keep the ball in.. When not doing that they hit some defensive shots to stay in points. But heavy topspin that really kicks up - not common at all.
I think because I picked the game up late in life I learned the topspin game more because it had become the norm, were guys that are around my age and started playing at a younger age were taught cont. or eastern grips with minimal spin. It was more about hitting low and going to the net.

I rarely play singles with guys my age, most are younger guys so to me topspin seemed like it was how most hit. The coaches of the local high school teams have had me hit with their singles guys over the years and most all hit heavy topspin. I always enjoy hitting with them because they like hitting heavy topspin from behind the baseline.

But when I play the club players or guys that were taught the flatter style game they do not like topspin and most cannot play it very well. Plus like you mentioned most have not faced that style of game much so it does give me an advantage.

Your also right about most players prefer the flatter faster type shot, I have found that fast low shot if not hit away from the opponent were they can't set up well it will come back faster. So even though I give my opponent more time with the looping shot if the ball gets up enough they have a hard time doing much with it.
 
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At first I reacted to your game like, pfft moonballer, albeit a damn good one. I'm the stereotypical flat low rec guy, but guess what I started throwing into my game the other day? Its another tactic for the toolbox...and could turn a match around at the 4.0 level. This thread opened my eyes to the problem this style can give many opponents.
 
At first I reacted to your game like, pfft moonballer, albeit a damn good one. I'm the stereotypical flat low rec guy, but guess what I started throwing into my game the other day? Its another tactic for the toolbox...and could turn a match around at the 4.0 level. This thread opened my eyes to the problem this style can give many opponents.
Yep most every club player I have hit against likes a fast low ball, they can rip those shots. It's like throwing fastballs to a fastball hitter.
 
At first I reacted to your game like, pfft moonballer, albeit a damn good one. I'm the stereotypical flat low rec guy, but guess what I started throwing into my game the other day? Its another tactic for the toolbox...and could turn a match around at the 4.0 level. This thread opened my eyes to the problem this style can give many opponents.
Yep most every club player I have hit against likes a fast low ball, they can rip those shots. It's like throwing fastballs to a fastball hitter.
Regardless of style if you mix your shots with pace and depth then you're always going to cause problems to rec players. Slow slicey balls tend to expose poor footwork, especially when they land deep
 
Regardless of style if you mix your shots with pace and depth then you're always going to cause problems to rec players. Slow slicey balls tend to expose poor footwork, especially when they land deep
This is true that is why I like to hit topspin shots mixed with slices and some flatter shots mixed in.
 
Almost every club player 4.0 and below has trouble when you camp out in your backhand corner and hit loopy topspin inside out forehands to their backhand. Just dare them to hit a head high backhand down the line for a winner. Few can do it, and most of those who try either miss or leave it short and to the center where you can step in and crush it. And 90% of them are uncomfortable moving around to the inside out forehand to go toe to toe with forehands.

Just basically show up to the match and dictate in the first game that "hey man, this match is going to rest on your ability to hit head high down the line back hand winners". Few are up to the task.
 
Almost every club player 4.0 and below has trouble when you camp out in your backhand corner and hit loopy topspin inside out forehands to their backhand. Just dare them to hit a head high backhand down the line for a winner. Few can do it, and most of those who try either miss or leave it short and to the center where you can step in and crush it. And 90% of them are uncomfortable moving around to the inside out forehand to go toe to toe with forehands.

Just basically show up to the match and dictate in the first game that "hey man, this match is going to rest on your ability to hit head high down the line back hand winners". Few are up to the task.

You got it, that is exactly what I do and have had good success with it. I do mix in drop shots and short chips especially if my opponent starts playing real deep.
 
TLM, do you take lessons? May I ask your tennis goals?
I have not taken lessons in the past year much but I plan on starting again in the spring with the local college coach that I have worked with in the past. My goals are to improve so I can compete with the 4.5 players better than now.

I still need to work on the 2 hand backhand, improve footwork and prep and get better at hitting through the court.
 
I have not taken lessons in the past year much but I plan on starting again in the spring with the local college coach that I have worked with in the past. My goals are to improve so I can compete with the 4.5 players better than now.

I still need to work on the 2 hand backhand, improve footwork and prep and get better at hitting through the court.
You look athletic, fit, and mobile. If you fix a few technical things you might be surprised by the way it could catapult your game onwards and upwards.
 
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