TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Volley is easily the hardest shot in tennis to learn (to hit correctly)
I now see why so few ever learn it.
I now see why so few ever learn it.
Volley is easily the hardest shot in tennis to learn (to hit correctly)
- Thread starter TimeToPlaySets
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Lance L
Semi-Pro
I don't think I agree with you on that. The serve, for instance, is a far more complicated stroke, a lot more things have to happen in the proper sequence to make it work right. An no way the volley is as hard as a backhand overhead.
I grew up in a time when volleying was an intregral part of the game. Even if the technique was not right, we got competent at it because we did it a lot. The game has changed, net play is not very important if you don't want it to be.
If you hit as many volleys as you do serves and forehands it wouldn't feel hard.
I grew up in a time when volleying was an intregral part of the game. Even if the technique was not right, we got competent at it because we did it a lot. The game has changed, net play is not very important if you don't want it to be.
If you hit as many volleys as you do serves and forehands it wouldn't feel hard.
as with any other tennis shots, the key is what the hand is doing.
as long as the racket keeps a consistent angle through the shot, the shot will be good.
the problem with most people's volley is they try to 'punch forward' or 'make contact in front of you'... bad instructions.. people try to punch forward way out in front usually end up with sloppy contact with little control.. because punching forward means pronation, which shuts down the face.
the volley is a mini windshield wipe. unlike a ground stroke you wipe up-and-across, in a volley you wipe down-and-cross. this enables you to maintain the racket angle and put a solid contact on the ball. the motion of course if much shorter than a ground stroke. that's why it's a mini wipe.
the above applies to a deep volley against a medium paced incoming ball. a drop volley is basically just using the racket to catch and deaden the ball.
volley should be the easiest shot because the swing is so short, there is less to go wrong, if you understand how to maintain the racket angle thru the shot.
as long as the racket keeps a consistent angle through the shot, the shot will be good.
the problem with most people's volley is they try to 'punch forward' or 'make contact in front of you'... bad instructions.. people try to punch forward way out in front usually end up with sloppy contact with little control.. because punching forward means pronation, which shuts down the face.
the volley is a mini windshield wipe. unlike a ground stroke you wipe up-and-across, in a volley you wipe down-and-cross. this enables you to maintain the racket angle and put a solid contact on the ball. the motion of course if much shorter than a ground stroke. that's why it's a mini wipe.
the above applies to a deep volley against a medium paced incoming ball. a drop volley is basically just using the racket to catch and deaden the ball.
volley should be the easiest shot because the swing is so short, there is less to go wrong, if you understand how to maintain the racket angle thru the shot.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Just like groundies once side is usually much stronger than the other
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Easily the hardest shot in tennis to learn. I've gone several lessons and have NO IDEA how to hit it. Ball just dribbles of my ****ing racket. Then I start swinging again.
The whole idea of not swinging is insane. Or not letting racket drop like an overhead. Impossible.
Weakest shot in tennis for me. Ball just falls into the net, out gets popped up like a fly ball.
Coach is telling me the ball to his chest. He is at service line. Ball barely dribbles over the net, lands at his feet
The whole idea of not swinging is insane. Or not letting racket drop like an overhead. Impossible.
Weakest shot in tennis for me. Ball just falls into the net, out gets popped up like a fly ball.
Coach is telling me the ball to his chest. He is at service line. Ball barely dribbles over the net, lands at his feet
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Whatever the coach is truly to tell me, I have no idea what he's saying. Grip is ****ed also. Constant changing it. I have zero idea what he wants, it keeps changing
SoBad
G.O.A.T.
Just keep a firm wrist and stay light on your feet, you'll be fine.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
From the slow motion videos that I've made these "freeze frames" from, "maintaining the racket angle" doesn't seem to be what happens. AAMOF, the changes that the racket face angle goes through strike me as being rather bizarre. No wonder it's hard to learn - open to square to open, typically. https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/albums/72157650082654467 and https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/albums/72157651675060197 with more variation on the finish, it seems, with the forehand volleys. The shot is also very similar to a slice ground stroke, which also doesn't tend to get taught this way. . . https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/albums/72157651675060197
kb
Say Chi Sin Lo
G.O.A.T.
How about just stop swinging at everything that you see?
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Best advice I got on this is:
1) Turn your shoulder to the ball
2) Don't take your racquet back AT ALL with your arm. Instead, see (1) above. Turning your shoulder IS taking your racquet back.
3) Watch the ball all the way into your strings (no peeking). This is more important on the volley than on a groundstroke.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Brent is a *great* volleyer. But, do what he "does", not what he "sez".
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/28030961682/in/album-72157651675060197/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/16090242732/in/album-72157647578784403/
kb
r2473
G.O.A.T.
I totally understand what you mean. You do actually take it back with your arm when you want more power and get better at the stroke. But for the OP, I think he should start with the most basic form of the volley. He will naturally start doing "what Brent does" as he gets better. But right now, by his own admission, he can't even hit a volleyBrent is a *great* volleyer. But, do what he "does", not what he "sez".
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/16090242732/in/album-72157647578784403/
kb
Brent does have his eyes DEAD on the ball in your pics though. His "no peeking" rule/lesson was really good for me and helped me a lot.
WildVolley
Legend
I don't really believe this is the case. What I find is that most recreational players never start volleying with a continental grip. They use other grips and then find hitting a normal professional-style volley awkward feeling. I agree with CoachingMastery (Dave Smith) that the volley should be the first shot taught and it should be hit using a continental grip. The bh continental grip volley always felt natural to me. The forehand didn't feel right at first.
Also, most recreational players never practice volleys. It is only slightly more common to see recreational players practicing the volley than practicing overheads, which means I almost never see it happening except for two old guys who mostly play doubles.
I think those of us who grew up watching McEnroe probably were less intimidated by the volley.
JoelSandwich
Hall of Fame
I think the tweener is the hardest shot to learn, I've been playing for years and I still don't understand it.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Well, I have a bunch of friends who can't volley, and far too many of them can't volley because they try *so hard* not to take a back swing. The net (pun intended) result is that the ball rolls off the racket face and goes into the bottom of the net.
I firmly believe that some "angular momentum" is necessary for making a volley stroke work. Clearly, much less is needed if there's more pace on the incoming ball, but even on a really fast incoming ball, a little angular "pop" motion very much helps control the trajectory of the outgoing volley shot.
I often hear pros make the claim that a technique is too "advanced". I say that physics is physics and that there's a reason why the good players use certain techniques. And, if you teach a less effective technique, not only is the result likely to suck, but then the player is later stuck with having to *change* techniques - which ain't a *bit* of fun. Think of the players that have failed to change to continental grip for serving. They're doomed to a tennis life of crappy serving because they can't bear the pain of the change.
"No peaking" - and everything else Brent does to hit a tennis ball - is great. Not all of those gold balls are due to his beautiful wife's play.
But, like so many teachers, what they do isn't always what they "say" they do. I keep trying to get him to look at the slow motion videos and "freeze frames". . . As long as I'm harping, go look at YouTube videos on the slice backhand and see how many of them tell you to keep the face open (45 degrees?) through the stroke. Then look at the slow motion video - often right there on the same site - and see what they *actually* do with the racket face. Unless the ball is very low, the racket face makes a very sudden change from wide open to essentially vertical at contact. It floors me that neither the USPTA nor PTR has picked up on this and failed to correct it.
Good volleyers mostly slice their volleys, and that slice comes not generally from an open racket face, but rather from a downward stroke and a nearly vertical racket face. If you don't believe it, even after checking out the freeze frames, play with Tennis Warehouse's free "Shot Maker" tool. http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/cgi-bin/trajectory_maker.cgi
kb
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TimeToPlaySets
Legend
My coach says the racket should almost be flat, yet you DO NOT slice it. For me, the ball dribbles off the racket. I push the racket forwards. You don't stick you arm out, you pivot on the elbow which is against your side or some crap
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Start with the backhand volley. With a continental grip, lay the face open with yer biceps muscle facing behind you. Square up the face by pointing yer biceps to the sky. At the same time, drop yer hand down. This square face with a dropping racket will produce slice. Let the feel of the ball on the racket face trigger yer stopping of that motion right there at contact. You *do* slice it.
You can add some follow through after enough repetitions with this simple (and accurate) volley drill. The key with the follow through is that the face *doesn't close* in any of the "workable" variations (with very rare exceptions).kb
don't be fooled by the pictures lol... it's really not 'open to square to open' even though it may look this way.
the initial 'open' is simply because the racket wants to stay behind when you start the pull. everything goes out of the window after the impact. so the 'square' part and the 2nd 'open' is meaningless.
if the pros were to shadow swing a volley without impact, it would be slightly open to slightly open to slightly open.
unless the contact is made in the dead center, the impact will knock the face off the intended angle.. but that doesn't matter because the ball is already gone.
the number 1 sin in rec tennis is flipping the face.... bar none...
go to the court, get someone to feed you a few. windshield wipe your volleys... you'll see what I am talking about.
don't worry about the other stuff like 'keep your back swing short' or 'make contact out in front'.... your brain can decide how much back swing is needed, and where the contact should be made.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
I agree. What turning the shoulder and not taking a swing/not taking the racquet back really got me to do is "step into the volley" and "feel the volley". The first few times I volleyed like Brent instructs, it just felt **right**. The volley was very easy to execute and had "pop" and "bite".
When I tried "really hard" to not take a backswing and follow other tips I heard from other players, it was a total mess, just like it is for your friends. Because I was still just swinging with my arm. Now, most of my swing (and racquet take back) is done by how I move my body when I point my shoulder toward the ball in the manner Brent teaches. To point your shoulder, you have to step with that foot; you have to "step into the volley". And that basic movement is the foundation of the volley (at least it seems to me).
I've actually gone from never coming to the net, not having a clue how to volley and grinding at the baseline forever, to playing serve/volley, chip/charge as my primary tactic (knowing I can always grind if I need to).
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mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Fascinating take.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Stepping towards the net is a nice, valuable added touch, but definitely not a necessary feature. And, it leaves you more susceptible to a lob if you didn't get the volley put away. Pointing yer shoulder is *very* important, but it ain't enough. Git yer iphone out and set it on slow motion video and get somebody to hold it real still whilst you hit a couple of nice volleys. Report back concerning what yer racket face does.
kb
r2473
G.O.A.T.
OK. I have a Casio Exlim camera and the tennis camera mount for the fence, so I watch video of myself all the time.Stepping towards the net is a nice, valuable added touch, but definitely not a necessary feature. And, it leaves you more susceptible to a lob if you didn't get the volley put away. Pointing yer shoulder is *very* important, but it ain't enough. Git yer iphone out and set it on slow motion video and get somebody to hold it real still whilst you hit a couple of nice volleys. Report back concerning what yer racket face does.
kb
As far as stepping toward the net, what is important (I think) is having your momentum moving forward. Your weight loads on the back foot and transitions to/through the front foot. Just like the serve (and everything else). So the step isn't always toward the net, but it does facilitate the momentum load/shift process.
In the past, I was trying to hit volleys either flat footed and just arming/flaying at the volley, or I was literally moving forward, running into the volley (which was a total mess).
It's funny how some instruction just "clicks" for some people and something else clicks for other people. Brent's way of explaining things just clicks with me. YMMV.
True. Speaking for myself, I never practiced volleys in the past because I had no clue what I was doing. Not only would it have been a waste of time for me, but it was embarrassing. I'd even shy away from hitting volleys in a pre-match warmup so my opponent didn't know just how pathetic my net game was. Same for overheads.
With overheads, the "quarterback movement" is still sometimes hard for me to naturally transition into and I find myself just backpedaling. If I can remember to turn my shoulder first, then I naturally take the "quarterback" type steps to get back for the volley. Then it's just a matter of getting those arms up ("surrender to the sky" is what I was taught) and not being lazy and actually overrunning the ball if I can, so the overhead is always in front of me, making the shot TONS easier and more consistent.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Disagree with the OP premise. The serve is actually the most difficult of the standard shots in tennis for most to master. I found the volley relatively easy. Perhaps badminton, table tennis and martial arts made the tennis volley easy for me to master.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I found the tweener relatively easy to master--easier than the serve. But I believe the OP is referring to normal repertoire of shots in tennis -- not trick shots or novelty shots.
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Wouldn't that depend on the player's preference, and the culture he's playing in?
Back in the '70's, everyone seemed to play S/V and chip n charge, so you LEARNED to volley in your first year of tennis.
Now with Nadal and DJ pounding from the backcourt, you forget both those guys are pretty good volleyer's, so you don't practice the art at all.
Back in the '70's, everyone seemed to play S/V and chip n charge, so you LEARNED to volley in your first year of tennis.
Now with Nadal and DJ pounding from the backcourt, you forget both those guys are pretty good volleyer's, so you don't practice the art at all.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
I tried for years to master the volley, gradually creeping up on things that worked. It took a *long* time to get there, and I'm convinced that it is largely due to the errors in teaching it. I'm convinced that I have it mostly right now, as I've been able to use my current technique of explaining it using my left hand to hit the shot. It works. Before I came up with this sequence, I couldn't come *close* to making a left handed volley.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
The volley is literally the easiest shot in tennis to learn, because there is very little to do. Most of the time when people butcher a volley it's either because they were trying to do too much with it, or they weren't in good position
I personally think the hardest part about volleying is the footwork to put yourself in position to hit a good volley (and also court awareness to know where you should be covering). The stroke itself is easy though.
If you hit me 100 volleys where I don't have to move at all to hit them, I will not miss more than a handful
I personally think the hardest part about volleying is the footwork to put yourself in position to hit a good volley (and also court awareness to know where you should be covering). The stroke itself is easy though.
If you hit me 100 volleys where I don't have to move at all to hit them, I will not miss more than a handful
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WildVolley
Legend
You can develop a lot of the basics with the volley just working against a wall. You don't need to worry about looking incompetent as long as no one is around. Start close to the wall and hit softly sticking with one side before going back and forth as many of the videos show.
IMO, here are some of the volley basics.
1) Continental grip with the off hand on the throat.
2) Arms comfortably bent with elbows at the sides and elbows only slightly in front of the torso. I know people hate the term "punch" but I see the volley ready as an athletic position that doesn't have the arms locked out. You want to be able to move your hands first to intercept a ball if you're pressured or if someone is head or ball hunting you.
3) Use your off hand to move the racket in position. It is going to be faster and may allow you to protect yourself when all else fails.
4) Do not worry about hitting much if any slice at first. Get behind the ball like McEnroe and hit it over the net mostly flat. I hate to see inexperienced volleyers chopping down at the ball. Don't worry about hitting a lot of slice like Federer.
5) Try to step forward into the ball, but sometimes you just won't have time.
6) Use a shortened, mostly flat swing and try to hit in front of your body.
7) Gently slice down and in to put some back spin on the volley once you are getting solid contact.
8) Keep your head still at contact - I find I am not usually looking at contact on most of my volleys. I am often hitting the ball blind, but my head is still and I'm not pulling my head sideways to try to see the ball when it is close to my body.
9) You need to lay back the wrist to hit the forehand volley, but it requires less shoulder turn.
10) The backhand volley needs more shoulder turn if you have time.
11) Normally try to protect your groin with the backhand volley. For a right hander, bring your hand down and to the right to save yourself.
If you have a practice partner, it is going to pay dividends to copy the pros and spend a little time at net trying to bump volleys back to the partner at the baseline. For a number of years I was lazy about this, but I'm starting to remember to do this every time I go and hit for a workout. I'm also starting to hit overheads every time I'm out hitting for fun. I really needed to practice my overhead.
WildVolley
Legend
Here's some inspiration. Paes, one of the greats, practicing his volleys.
I think it is worth noticing his economy of motion, and use of his left hand to position the racket head on his backhand volleys. Also, notice how his wrist lays back on the low forehand volleys in order to get the ball back over the net. That's going to feel uncomfortable if you haven't been using the continental grip to hit forehand volleys.
I think it is worth noticing his economy of motion, and use of his left hand to position the racket head on his backhand volleys. Also, notice how his wrist lays back on the low forehand volleys in order to get the ball back over the net. That's going to feel uncomfortable if you haven't been using the continental grip to hit forehand volleys.
WildVolley
Legend
Thanks.
Yeah, that's a great position to practice from as it is sort of an approach position. It may be a too far from the net for a beginner as you can see that Paes is having to pick a lot of those volleys off the ground. I would start with more waist level volleys closer to the net at first and then move back as the player starts to get more feel for it.
I need to practice those approach volleys, as I sometimes get carried away as I'm coming in.
I figure I can only get up to about 2' behind the service line for my first volleys, so it's needed to practice the first volley from there.
Volley it deep, move in 2 steps, to 2' inside the service line, which allows slow footed player's like myself to cover most lobs.
ROS, when my partner is returning, I'm mostly standing near atop the service line, so I need to practice reflex low volleys from there.
Volley it deep, move in 2 steps, to 2' inside the service line, which allows slow footed player's like myself to cover most lobs.
ROS, when my partner is returning, I'm mostly standing near atop the service line, so I need to practice reflex low volleys from there.
JoelSandwich
Hall of Fame
I know it's not really a normal everyday shot, but I still find it difficult. For a normal shot I'd go with volleys or serving.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
And, some of the same on the forehand side.
I'm thinking that there was significant improvement by the end. I've watched plenty of volley lessons where the students were volleying no better at the end of the lesson than at the beginning. . .
kb
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@JoelSandwich
I prefer the continental grip for the tweener (but I suppose that the E Bh grip might also work).
When I run down the ball, I almost catch up to it as it bounces (I let it bounce in front of me). After the bounce, I quickly move forward (toward the back fence) so that I am directly over the ball just prior to a 2nd bounce. The trick (for me) is to hit the ball just before the ball bounces a 2nd time. Short follow-thru for me. Many pros tend to employ a longer follow-thru than I use for the tweener.
My implementation is a little bit like a half-volley except that I am usually hitting a falling ball rather than a rising ball.
I prefer the continental grip for the tweener (but I suppose that the E Bh grip might also work).
When I run down the ball, I almost catch up to it as it bounces (I let it bounce in front of me). After the bounce, I quickly move forward (toward the back fence) so that I am directly over the ball just prior to a 2nd bounce. The trick (for me) is to hit the ball just before the ball bounces a 2nd time. Short follow-thru for me. Many pros tend to employ a longer follow-thru than I use for the tweener.
My implementation is a little bit like a half-volley except that I am usually hitting a falling ball rather than a rising ball.
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JoelSandwich
Hall of Fame
My problem is getting the ball between my legs without having to wait for the ball to bounce a lot.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not sure I understand. Note that I just added a bit more to my previous post.
JoelSandwich
Hall of Fame
You know how most of the time when you hit a tweener, your usually chasing down a lob and the ball is really high? It's difficult for me to hit the ball before the second bounce, because it has to be in an exact spot and if you miss the ball still bounces relatively high. It's easier if someone hits a high ball over me when I'm directly on the net and they hit it barely over me, then waiting for the ball to bounce several times so I can adjust to hit it when the ball is bouncing very low.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Follow thru is limited by jewels.
EBackhand grip allows more room to pronate the wrist and get enough umpff on the ball. Conti would almost be hitting yourself as you contact the ball.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I got some of my insight on the tweener from Gig Fernandez (Tennis mag, Aug 1990 article on "Hot Shots"). I believe she had suggested a conti grip for this and some other "hot shots". Ian W suggests either a conti grip or something closer to an EBh grip. I had actually already mastered a badminton tweener some years earlier. Much easier in badminton since you hit the shuttle shortly before it hits the ground (no bounce allowed).
For @JoelSandwich:
http://www.essentialtennis.com/how-to-hit-a-tweener/
xFullCourtTenniSx
Hall of Fame
I think this depends on the person. I had no problems with volleys. Putting away high volleys I had a problem with for a while, but I've gotten much better at it.
dominikk1985
Legend
not a hard shot technically but athletically it is challenging because you have to judge a ball in the air and have less reaction time.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
agreed.
additionally if you are hitting mostly groundies, and are learning volleys late,... you probably apply groundstroke principles to your volley (eg. big backswing, fast swing, big follow through, etc..).
volley is a simpler shot IMO, just only practiced 1/100th of the time (relative to groundies)
[edit] i think the transition volley is probably the hardest shot, because:
1. it's typically low, at your feet
2. requires some experience to know how/when to come in, and/or setup shot to assist (big serve, big groundie, etc..)
3. requires high accuracy to avoid an easy passing shot setup
but in general once you're on the net, it's an "easy" shot
Here's the problem I see with this lesson, and I freely admit to not being a coach and having no real idea how to teach this stuff.
Both players are standing flatfooted at the service line and waiting for floaters to reach them. Their actual technique is not great, but the bigger issue is they are ingraining very bad habits. Hitting an approach volley is the classic predator or prey situation. You want to be as aggressive as possible, not passive. You have to be on your toes and if you get a floater, you have to close in as close as possible to hit it. I understand the goal of the lesson, but it seems to me you have to find a way to do it that doesn't encourage sloppy footwork and passivity. Those are much harder to unlearn than a faulty stroke. FWIW I see this repeated constantly at my club when teaching adults.
Now the volleys Paes was hitting from the same position were kill shots not floaters, so all he could do was try to get a racquet on them.
