Volleys: Can you see the spin of the ball as it crosses the net?
- Thread starter Raul_SJ
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Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
I often miss watching the opponent's swing path. But I definitely pick up the approaching ball. But I can't tell if it's topspin or slice.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think I see the spin. But since I saw my opponent's swing path, I don't need to.
Why do you miss watching the opponent's swing path? Is it because you're concentrating on something else? Have you tried training yourself to watch for it?
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
I know I am supposed to watch the opponent's swing path but I don't pick it up. I think I am looking in the general direction but I am not honing in on the swing path. Maybe watching the trees in the background.
Probably need to drill on that and call out "Ball" to myself at opponent's contact...So basically if the incoming ball has heavy topspin, you must compensate by slightly opening up the face on the volley? And slightly closing the face on backspin? Or vice versa? I forget.
Both types of spin seem to dip at the net.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I know I am supposed to watch the opponent's swing path but I don't pick it up. I think I am looking in the general direction but I am not honing in on the swing path. Maybe watching the trees in the background.
So basically if the incoming ball has heavy topspin, you must compensate by slightly opening up the face on the volley? And slightly closing the face on backspin? Or vice versa? I forget.
Both types of spin seem to dip at the net.
Gravity is causing the ball to dip.
TS causes more dip.
Slice causes less dip. You need to open the racquet face more: the most common problem I see is volleyers dumping volleys into the net because they failed to open their racquet face enough to compensate for the backspin.
The technical explanation: most of us hit volleys with some backspin. In order to do that with an incoming TS ball, we only have to keep the ball rotating in the direction it already is.
To do that with an incoming backspin ball, we have to reverse the spin direction.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Yes, I think I am dumping incoming backspin into the net and volleying topspin long. Need to open up the face more on backspin. And close the face on TS.
Some guys slices seem to really dip hard at my feet. As much as TS. But maybe that is an illusion.
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Watch your opponent to see what kind of stroke they are hitting, ts or slice. Listen for the sound the ball coming off their string bed. More glancing or brushing sound will indicate more spin or less solid contact. Loud cannon sound? Duck if you value your life.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
i don't think i notice the spin itself... just know the spin based on the stroke being hit.
WildVolley
Legend
I know I am supposed to watch the opponent's swing path but I don't pick it up. I think I am looking in the general direction but I am not honing in on the swing path. Maybe watching the trees in the background.
It is most likely that you're seeing the swing path (unless you have terrible eyesight), but you aren't mentally registering it.
You need to train the habit of looking at the opponent when he hits to not only see spin on the ball, but to use movement clues to predict where the ball is going to go before contact.
Me too.
Last week I could not see the ball's seams.
Now I can.
... I figured out that I need to re-focus when the ball gets maybe 2/3rds to you.
You literally have to practice re-focusing ... and to that end I also now don't blink ... that takes about an hour of practice to get comfortable with ... after the ball leaves the racket you can close your eyes but when the ball leaves their racket that is the trigger to open, and keep open your eyes so you can really track the ball AND change your focus.
Now I can see the rotation ... and as such the mind is less panicked! ... your mind interprets blur as danger and it's going to panic ... you will lose the ability to think and it will stay that way FOREVER unless you learn to adjust eye focus.
I can personally attest that the three people I know who have accepted this advice have told me it's a BIG difference ... two said it's like a new game.
*** CLARIFICATION ***
I don't think I can see the ball rotating because to see the seams at all the ball would need to be only a few feet away ... what person could do otherwise with 20/20.
At that point you're not going to see the ball long enough to see the rotation, and of course it's too late anyway.
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IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
You're saying you can actually see the rotation of the ball in flight?
i.e. if I set up a ball machine with either slice or topspin (you not knowing which), you would be able to tell the type of spin before it crosses the net?
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
IIRC, "Inner Game" says to focus on the ball rotation...
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
That might just be a cue to help you to watch the ball better.
The question is whether one can actually see the roation?
And, if so, then that person should be able to distinguish between a ball machine slice and topspin, as the ball crosses the net. I can't personally do that, but maybe some people can...
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
You should be watching the opponent's (forward) swing to get the timing of your split-step. Listen to the sound of their contact to tell you how hard the ball was hit and how much spin was imparted.
.
No.
But one can see the racket motion anyway ...
"Opponent's low to high swing means topspin.
Opponent's high to low swing shows slice."
Is there a reason one has to see the ball rotation?
And what's the difference in a doubles volley ... how much time is the ball in flight?
However, I'm betting I would be able to as a batter, baseball or softball, because I don't think the rotation is as much so you probably have more time to see spin ... that is, if the ball is turning fast it's a blur so you can't focus on the seams.
Imagine a knuckle ball ... you're going to see the seams the maximum time ... but so what, the pitch mitigates the value of spin.
https://www.patcash.co.uk/2018/08/how-to-watch-ball-like-pro-tennis/#what-watch-ball-means
"Frequently asked questions:
Should you keep your head still during a shot?
Yes. Generally speaking you should try and keep your head still during a shot.
(((Agree ... your body should ideally be acting like a wall and not turning through the shot.... IDEALLY....)))
However, this does not mean you should rigidly try and keep it perfectly locked in place. Your head movement and position needs to be allowed to move naturally before, during, and after contact point.
But shouldn’t I try and copy Roger Federer?
No you should not try and copy Federer’s head position at contact point. Federer is one of the exceptions to the rule. He’s one of the very few who is talented enough to overcome the quirks in his technique. I know it’s hard to hear but just because Federer can doesn’t mean you can."
(((Well I don't really know what's different in Federer's head non-movement than mine ... so I think anyone can learn to do a significant part of what he does.)))
"As you now know “watching the ball” in the traditional sense is futile. Instead you want to train your brain, eyes, and body to get better at predicting"
(((Yep! ... And it's not hard to do ... learn to stop blinking on the return and change your focus when the ball gets near so you can really see what you're hitting ... that will make you PRESENT ... which is the 'Inner Game')))
There are situations where I can TRULY see the spin - most of those situations have to do with people who hit with very low spin rates. In any event, it's rare that I am really reacting to the spin of the ball as a first priority on a net volley. I"m more reacting to the trajectory, angle, direction, pace of the shot, and I am taking those cues from the flight of the ball and from the opponent's swing itself - low to high - expect topspin, high to low, expect slice, etc. If I can REALLY see the spin on the ball, the spin isn't a factor unless the ball has no spin (or darn near none) on it whatsoever - and then it's going to knuckle in flight if it's hit hard enough, and it's exceedingly rare that I see a knuckle ball hitter hitting a ball with enough pace to really dance around.
I guess all of that is to say that I don't react to spin per se, but more trajectory, and I get my clues to that from the swing, not from any actual visualization of the spin itself on the ball.
The topspin dipper that clears the net and tries to dive for my shoelaces - I try to hit that one early so I can hit it with a relatively closed face, contacting it above the net height if at all possible, but if I am below the net height, I open the face a bit just to get it to clear the net... the heavy slice floater that's going to try to dive into the net off my strings - I just open the face a bit and drive at it with the heel of my hand leading the stroke...
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I don't think that it is possible to see in which direction the ball is spinning as it crosses the net.
That would be a pretty incredible eyesight.
That would be a pretty incredible eyesight.
If it's spinning at something below a few hundred RPM, I'd bet most people could see that - but then, spin isn't much of a factor on such as shot unless it's barely spinning at all (knuckleball) and moving fast enough to have erratic flight...I don't think that it is possible to see in which direction the ball is spinning as it crosses the net.
That would be a pretty incredible eyesight.
how does one hit a curveball in baseball if you can't see spin? or is it about the difficulty of discerning spins that are 180 degrees different from each other? i don't think i have once thought that a topspin shot was a slice or vice versa, though. perhaps it is the trajectory, but don't you just know? actually, there was one time i couldn't tell the spin, but that was between a flat shot and a topspin shot hit by a former pro. the ball was a bullet that came straight at me but had tons of spin.
I think one thing we are all failing to recognize is that professional baseball and tennis players really do, for the overwhelmingly majority of cases, have much better visual acuity than the rest of us.
I actually don't doubt there are MLB batters who, whether they see the spin, or can interpret it based on the ball color (which will look different based on the pitch) or tennis players who can interpret ball spin on return of serve as the ball is leaving the server's racquet.
That's a pipe dream for myself and almost everyone else.
are you saying that you can't tell a difference between a slice serve and a kick serve? or a flat serve and a kick or slice serve? i do get mixed up sometimes between a good topslice and a mediocre kick serve (which happens on deuce side by a right hand server) but not much else (not to say that i can hit a good shot off them). but if many players, even good ones, can't tell the spin that well, then i need to start rethinking about varying my spins when i serve.
That's not exactly what I'm saying so I will clarify. I'm saying that for myself, my hand-eye is good enough, and I'm fast enough, for it to not really matter at a recreational level. Very few players are coming at me with 120mph serves. I can adjust and I will absolutely know what kind of spin is on the ball based on all available info - NONE of which is actually seeing the ball itself spin. It's just a green dot.
Anecdotal aside: Mats Wilander told TW member carlosrothstein that he could actually see the spin of the ball leaving his opponent's racquet. He knew if it was flat or slice or whatever at contact.
I believe he's either telling the truth, or interpreting some other data set with enough confidence at that precise moment to rely on it 100%. He said that was the major difference between professionals and everyone else.
It's the same thing with a MLB fastball. You have to commit to the swing as the ball is leaving the pitcher's hand or you're going to miss it.
These guys are picking up on things we can't. Whether it's the finger position on the ball, the fluidity of the motion, more red because it's spinning faster, or combinations of all the above, I don't know.
I was good enough to have played with people who went and played professional baseball and tennis.. but unfortunately I wasn't as gifted
I don't know if baseball players can actually see the spin. I think they just infer the spin based on the arm and wrist motion and other cues such as initial travel trajectory. I mean this is a sport where hitting 30% is considered very good! Seriously watching a 90mph baseball pitch from 10 rows behind first base you get to appreciate how fast the damn thing is and you have to swing a tiny bat at it!
Also from my experience facing very fast badminton smashes and very short distances to react.
You get REALLY good at pre-determining where a smash is going to hit from basically the first 5 feet of travel off the racquet. From my experience if it's very fast I see it coming off the racket and then I see it AT my racket. Everything in between I don't see because I'm just shifting view as fast as I can. Also there are times that they are so close I don't even get step two in. I look toward racquet but the shuttle is already on it's way back (or missed). I can return somewhat quick smashes without looking it all the way in so it allows me to do head-fakes on returns.
The human mind is a VERY fine tuned piece of work. It can do quite a bit with partial information once you have it tuned to it. You should watch highlights of the top tier badminton doubles matches (they are rapid fire!) to see just how quick they can be!
Also from my experience facing very fast badminton smashes and very short distances to react.
You get REALLY good at pre-determining where a smash is going to hit from basically the first 5 feet of travel off the racquet. From my experience if it's very fast I see it coming off the racket and then I see it AT my racket. Everything in between I don't see because I'm just shifting view as fast as I can. Also there are times that they are so close I don't even get step two in. I look toward racquet but the shuttle is already on it's way back (or missed). I can return somewhat quick smashes without looking it all the way in so it allows me to do head-fakes on returns.
The human mind is a VERY fine tuned piece of work. It can do quite a bit with partial information once you have it tuned to it. You should watch highlights of the top tier badminton doubles matches (they are rapid fire!) to see just how quick they can be!
Regarding baseball specifically, there are typically three types of pitches that ou can legitimately see/spot the spin on - the first is the slider - and a good slider, you may see a "clue" about the spin, which will be a tiny red dot located at around 2 o'clock on the "clock face" of the baseball for a right hander's slider and at about 10 o'clock for a lefty's slider. A hitter may say after they've swung at and missed such a pitch: "Yeah, I saw the dot..." but the truth is that he was already swinging, so when it exploded, and wound up somewhere else, he already had missed it. Another is the so-called "cememt mixer" slider - which is a poorly thrown slider - and insted of a red dot, you'll see a red circle (the spin axis isn't tight enough and the ball won't break enough to make you miss it) and when hitters hit those so-called cement mixer or "hanging" sliders out of the park, they may say afterwards "Yeah, I saw that hanger come in and ripped it!" but the truth is that they were already swinging where their eyes told their hands to swing and lo and behold, the ball was actually there (instead of being somewhere else, as it would have been if it were a well thrown slider) and they crushed it. The third is the knuckleball which you can see because it has next to no spin - but hitting that is hard for other reasons. The great Ted Williams claimed he could see the spin on the ball and he had the batting chops to potentially back up such a claim - but even his claim, while the closest to potentially being legitimate - is still regarded as BS by enough people that it's not accepted in hitting theory as a legitimate way to go about things.
There are several clues to knowing what's coming from a pitcher in baseball. For example: the curveball actually typically goes up upon release from the pitcher's hand before it starts coming down (this is the only pitch that actually does that), and sometimes (but not for a good curveballer) the pitcher's motion itself will give it away. But the thing is, it's the deception that is what makes those pitches effective. There's the speed of the ball coming in which is slower than the fastball which contributes to the deception, then there's the actual motion of the ball and on and on... the bottom line on these pitches and whether or not hitters hit them is this: the batter is going to largely be guessing where the ball is going to be when it gets to them and starting their swing before they could reliably read the spin on the ball to enable them to adjust where they're going to swing. Often, with a good breaking ball, the pitch has fooled the batter into swinging in X area (or not swinging at all) and when the ball gets to the batter, it's not in X area, it's in Y area, or it's not even there YET... hitters only hit breaking balls by either a) guessing correctly (and often luckily) well before they could ever see the spin or b) they hit a breaking ball that doesn't break enough or at all (the hanging curve, the cement mixer slider, the c*ck high changeup, etc.). Even a knuckleball which can be seen from the instant it leaves the pitcher's hand (in part because of the typical motion, and in part because it is not spinning at all, which is hugely conspicuous - even from 60 feet away, can be a b*tch to hit because the thing will just break and move suddenly, and often somewhat randomly... spinning baseballs have relatively predictable flight - when the baseball isn't spinning, turbulence results, which impacts the balls flight - and even with all of our sophisticated equipment today, we cannot model or predict turbulent flight of our most sophisticated flying machines, let alone baseballs.
The best hitters will often be able to get contact on a good breaking ball, enough to foul it off and stay at the plate long enough to get one that they guess right on, or that the pitcher makes a mistake with, or get a fastball that they can catch up to, or whatever else...
All of that is to say that reading the spin on a pitched baseball isn't the first priority for a hitter deciding how to deal with that pitch. Reflection on the spin of the ball may (or may not) happen after the ball has been hit or missed, and is mostly BS.
And with all of THAT said, I still believe that gauging spin of a tennis ball at the net is not about seeing the ball itself spinning, but getting other clues about it from the opponent's swing motion, the flight of the ball as it approaches, and so forth - with spin being an afterthought, or being so slow as to have not been a factor anyway. I.e. you're better off paying attention to the opponent's swing and the flight of the ball than you are trying to discern the spin. You know what topspin looks like when your opponent hits it, and you know what to do with a topspin shot at the net, you know what slice looks like from your opponent's swing, and you know what to do with that sliced ball - figuring out whether it's got 1,000 or 2,000 or 5,000 RPMs either top or slice spin is essentially immaterial in the time you have to react to such a shot.
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Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Yes watch out you don't get killed!
There are some rec players that have a slice or kick serve motion and either intentionally, or by happy accident wind up with the opposite serve that their motion would have predicted... and the difference between a mediocre kick and a mediocre slice can be huge when you're expecting that mediocre kick and all of a sudden the ball stays low and bounces in the opposite direction, or vice versa... I have a friend who has a pretty decent kick serve that every once in a while slices instead of kicks - ordinarily his kicker comes in breaking from my left to my right, then bounces high and back out to my left... but once in a while, and seemingly by accident, it will stay low-ish and continue moving left to right after it bounces. I mentioned it to him one day and complimented him on how deceptive and effective it was... he didn't (and still doesn't) even realize that he was hitting two very different spins on these serves... In truth, he isn't even consciously aware of what his racquet is doing at contact to produce this, he just sometimes tries to hit to he body on people who are sitting on his kicker... and his "body" serve is a slice - but he will tell you "I can't hit a slice serve." So I chalk this up to "happy accident" for him... but that doesn't mean it's any less effective.
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
This is amateur-level baseball (Men's League).
You think the hitter can tell the spin, even at amateur level?
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
At least it's a dot..............................not just a blur
you guys are right that if we separate all the properties associated with an incoming ball, the spin may not really be a factor (or cannot be discerned to the level that it is useful). but at the same time, it is impossible, or at least very difficulty, to separate spin from trajectory, for example, since spin causes a change in trajectory.
i guess what i am saying is that these things (determining topspin/slice) should become intuitive through practice for most. rather than thinking about it, just practice against different types of players and that should be enough. maybe i am wrong.
i guess what i am saying is that these things (determining topspin/slice) should become intuitive through practice for most. rather than thinking about it, just practice against different types of players and that should be enough. maybe i am wrong.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It makes all the difference in the world when I want to hit a drop volley off of a slow ball coming in. If I use the same racquet face on an incoming backspin ball as I do on an incoming TS, I'll dump it into the net. I've done my share of that and I've learned from it.
Still important on non-DVs also but most noticeable on DVs.
I think this is probably more semantics than anything. Someone who has been volleying all their life is doing this, but they aren't ever thinking about it.
I never consider the incoming spin, speed, angle. But of course I do a lot to compensate for those factors. I would explain those things to a new player. Over time they just become automatic.
I know I've posted a lot in this thread about the legitimacy of reading the spin on the ball vs. knowing what spin is on it... i.e. understanding that spin implicitly based on the opponent's stroke and the ball's trajectory, but last night was a fantastic example. My wife always says when I surprise her with a slice ball "Dang it! I couldn't see the spin, so I didn't know which way it was going to bounce" I have been trying for 2 years to get her to understand that it's not about seeing the ball spin, it's about watching my swing and the ball's flight to understand and infer the way the ball will bounce... this is still not second nature for my wife yet...
It was cold here in GA last night and my wife's women's dubs team was having an impromptu hitting session, but only three of them showed up. My wife asked me to come out and join them to make enough for dubs, so I did. One of the women on the team who was there last night is young, but actually a very experienced, excellent player (this is what makes ALTA teams so weird - this woman is easily a strong 3.5 and I suspect more like a 4.0 woman, on the same team as at least 3 other women who are 2.0s MAYBE 2.5s... playing on a team that is probably a 3.0 team overall... ) anyway...
So it was cold, the balls weren't bouncing very well at all and we were all just warming up and I hit a shot that was really kind of a mess - my footwork was atrocious, I didn't get in position properly for the bounce (or lack thereof) and so I wound up half mis-hitting a slice ball back. I intended it to be a long semi-floating sliced ball and it turned out to be more of a drop slice (a shabby ball to hit someone during warmup). As soon as I hit it, I apologized, but the new, skilled woman was already running for it. My wife said "oh yeah, you have to watch out for my husband's 'lefty spin'"... meanwhile the new woman almost got to it and then it kicked to her right and my wife was just kind of telling her "oh you know, his lefty spin breaks the other way" and blah blah blah... the woman says "Oh I knew what it was going to do and which way it was going to bounce because I saw him swing..." I apologized for the shabby warmup shot again, but I wanted to just run over and hug this woman because she gets it.
It was cold here in GA last night and my wife's women's dubs team was having an impromptu hitting session, but only three of them showed up. My wife asked me to come out and join them to make enough for dubs, so I did. One of the women on the team who was there last night is young, but actually a very experienced, excellent player (this is what makes ALTA teams so weird - this woman is easily a strong 3.5 and I suspect more like a 4.0 woman, on the same team as at least 3 other women who are 2.0s MAYBE 2.5s... playing on a team that is probably a 3.0 team overall... ) anyway...
So it was cold, the balls weren't bouncing very well at all and we were all just warming up and I hit a shot that was really kind of a mess - my footwork was atrocious, I didn't get in position properly for the bounce (or lack thereof) and so I wound up half mis-hitting a slice ball back. I intended it to be a long semi-floating sliced ball and it turned out to be more of a drop slice (a shabby ball to hit someone during warmup). As soon as I hit it, I apologized, but the new, skilled woman was already running for it. My wife said "oh yeah, you have to watch out for my husband's 'lefty spin'"... meanwhile the new woman almost got to it and then it kicked to her right and my wife was just kind of telling her "oh you know, his lefty spin breaks the other way" and blah blah blah... the woman says "Oh I knew what it was going to do and which way it was going to bounce because I saw him swing..." I apologized for the shabby warmup shot again, but I wanted to just run over and hug this woman because she gets it.
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Exactly. To add to this, more often than not you probably know (or should know) the available shots you're leaving your opponent and should have a good feel for what they are most likely to send back your way given their tendencies.
When your opponent is probably going to send a defensive slice backhand, or a safe cross court TS shot, but instead opts for a huge DTL winner it's not that you are "surprised" -- because you picked up on it before it's happened -- but still too late to do anything about it.
I suppose what I'm saying is that inexperienced players can be surprised, and more experienced players are "caught" by the shot that was too good.
Another example is table tennis. You can get insane spin on the ball and there is barely any markings on it. You can't SEE the spin but you can certainly infer it by the motion of the arm. In fact there is an actual shot that some people do under the table so they can't see the paddle but then do a counter arm move to fool the opponent into wrong spin!
I will say that I was surprised to find out how much spin on the incoming ball impacted my own stroke on the ball - not contact point or bounce of the incoming ball, but rather the way a TS ball will try to come off your racquet face kicking upwards and how a sliced ball will try to kick down off of your own racquet. I knew about this effect from ping pong (which I played a lot of as a kid), but didn't think it was as much of a factor in tennis - and it's a BIG factor on volleys at the net. The effect isn't as big as it is in ping pong, but it's definitely there. I can't tell you how many 3.0s and 3.5s dump my slices into the net when they try to volley them - even the higher slices that they contact reasonably above the net, they often put into the net. If I have to hit "through" a player at the net because I don't have the confidence to go for a better shot, I will slice it at them, hard, every time.
*edit* and regarding the ping pong post above from @Dimcorner - yeah, it's pretty easy with a ping pong ball to hit it with enough topspin for instance, that if your opponent hits it with a square paddle, perpendicular to the flight, the ball will kick up off of their paddle at an angle that makes them feel like they hit the ball with the edge of the paddle.
*edit* and regarding the ping pong post above from @Dimcorner - yeah, it's pretty easy with a ping pong ball to hit it with enough topspin for instance, that if your opponent hits it with a square paddle, perpendicular to the flight, the ball will kick up off of their paddle at an angle that makes them feel like they hit the ball with the edge of the paddle.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I don't think that it is possible to see in which direction the ball is spinning as it crosses the net.
That would be a pretty incredible eyesight.
That doesn't stop bull$h$%$yters from claiming that they can see though! LOL.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I know I am supposed to watch the opponent's swing path but I don't pick it up. I think I am looking in the general direction but I am not honing in on the swing path. Maybe watching the trees in the background.
So basically if the incoming ball has heavy topspin, you must compensate by slightly opening up the face on the volley? And slightly closing the face on backspin? Or vice versa? I forget.
Both types of spin seem to dip at the net.
Where did you learn that piece (bolded)?
Are you feeling completely comfortable at the net? I'm talking about feeling only. Not your skill. Feeling comfortable like you're standing at the baseline?
First rule of learning the volley -- get that feeling first. That's the key to your whole net game potential.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Must have those double baselines
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
So if they're not comfortable they shouldn't practice volleying?
I'd argue that one gains comfort by repetition and acquisition of skill. I would also think that making "feeling comfortable at net" a pre-requisite would mean even fewer people venturing up to the net than currently.
So, while I agree that feeling comfortable at net is critical, I'm not sure I'd let my discomfort stop me from improving other net-related skills [like watching the opponent's swing path].
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