Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Why secrecy during but not after?
WADA APEALS SINNER CASE
- Thread starter pizzadontdie
- Start date
JJGUY
Hall of Fame
That's because they didn't receive the same expedited response as in Sinner's case, just ask Halep, her appeal went nowhere for almost a year.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Because it's procedural secrecy, so once the procedure is complete then it's made public. It's designed to protect reputation in case of exoneration as with Sinner. The decision, however, may be legally incorrect.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
You are confusing the Tribunal level with the Appeal level. WADA's appeal to CAS could take a long time as well. Tribunals, by contrast, are quite speedy.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
What is the projected date?
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
There was a lot of extra lab testing in Halep's case that won't happen here, so I would expect the appeal to be far quicker.
Although appeals are de novo, I suspect WADA is not appealing on evidence but arguing an error in law.
Sinner's lawyers could concede there was an error and argue about punishment.
I don't know how busy CAS is and its usual timeframe.
Skinner will play and win legally the AO.
Although appeals are de novo, I suspect WADA is not appealing on evidence but arguing an error in law.
Sinner's lawyers could concede there was an error and argue about punishment.
I don't know how busy CAS is and its usual timeframe.
Skinner will play and win legally the AO.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
That's crazy if he plays AO then gets banned.
JJGUY
Hall of Fame
After Sinner announced that he failed the tests and he was cleared now, there were people who said the same thing, Sinner has a good team and they knew what they were doing and that's why he can keep playing etc, it's not sinner's fault others like Halep or Cilic didn't use the secrecy or as some had said maybe they didn't know they could use to help themselves. This argument is ridiculous!!!! You think other lawyers specializing in the doping appeal don't know this rule and don't know their options, and Sinners team is the only one that understands it and actually used it? Give me a break! Sinner had the help from ATP/ITIA, it's a coordinated effort to get him off the hook ASAP, others didn't receive the same help, what they had tried or wanted to try went no where and it was futile!
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Halep argued the evidence was wrong and had enough testing done to cast doubt. This is a completely different case with little in common with the Sinner one.
You are entitled to ask to be allowed to keep playing while the process is being undertaken and it was granted. I just don't know how frequently this is the case but it is allowed.
You are entitled to ask to be allowed to keep playing while the process is being undertaken and it was granted. I just don't know how frequently this is the case but it is allowed.
Last edited:
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
GrandSlam24
Rookie
You are my inner life. You think exactly like me. And you'll never forget it like me.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
It's entirely possible that the ITIA sent the case off to a Tribunal composed of "player-friendly" decision-makers, but this is impossible to demonstrate. WADA has appealed and will win.
The question is "How is it possible to unscramble an egg"? The answer is "you can't".
The question is "How is it possible to unscramble an egg"? The answer is "you can't".
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
You are the same person. But you will need to change your username soon.
Galvermegs
Semi-Pro
He had a great 2024. But maybe the next 2 years will be a little less memorable.
Bride of Alcaraz
New User
When WADA wins, will Sinner have his weeks at #1 removed from history?
I hope so, because Alcaraz is the face of tennis and won 2 of the last 3 slams and almost the Olympics!
And Alcaraz won Indian Wells and beat Sinner at Indian Wells and RG too...
I hope so, because Alcaraz is the face of tennis and won 2 of the last 3 slams and almost the Olympics!
And Alcaraz won Indian Wells and beat Sinner at Indian Wells and RG too...
Last edited:
GodlessEndeavor
Professional
To me they look like employees. They follow him around on tour, so they don't have the freedoms contractors would have to set their own working hours etc.
The best overview of the complex legal situation is by Italian tennis writer Ubaldo S. on Ubitennis, see.
www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/1fs4v9j/ubitennis_case_what_does_wada_need_to/
or:
www.ubitennis.com/blog/2024/09/29/caso-sinner-cosa-deve-provare-la-wada-per-squalificare-sinner/
www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/1fs4v9j/ubitennis_case_what_does_wada_need_to/
or:
www.ubitennis.com/blog/2024/09/29/caso-sinner-cosa-deve-provare-la-wada-per-squalificare-sinner/
Translation in
www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/1fs4v9j/ubitennis_sinner_case_what_does_wada_need_to/
As i said above. the whole evaluation of negligence will be very, very subjective on the part of the 3 men panel, One of the panel can be chosen by wada, one by the Sinner party..
www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/1fs4v9j/ubitennis_sinner_case_what_does_wada_need_to/
As i said above. the whole evaluation of negligence will be very, very subjective on the part of the 3 men panel, One of the panel can be chosen by wada, one by the Sinner party..
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
If my bad Italian serves me well this was my understanding of what has happened in the past. You can't push it all on the team. There must be some measure of negligence on the part of Sinner:
In base allo scarno comunicato della WADA nel quale si annuncia la presentazione dell’appello, l’ente preposto alla lotta al doping non ha contestato la ricostruzione dei fatti fornita dal team di Sinner al Tribunale Indipendente e accettata dai giudici, ma sostiene che l’applicazione del regolamento non è stata effettuata correttamente. Secondo la WADA, infatti, si deve riscontrare un grado di negligenza da parte di Sinner che ha portato alla contaminazione involontaria, e in base all’articolo 10.6.2 del Tennis Anti Doping Programme (TADP) il periodo di squalifica varia da un massimo di due anni a un minimo della metà in base al grado di colpa riscontrato nell’atleta.
In base allo scarno comunicato della WADA nel quale si annuncia la presentazione dell’appello, l’ente preposto alla lotta al doping non ha contestato la ricostruzione dei fatti fornita dal team di Sinner al Tribunale Indipendente e accettata dai giudici, ma sostiene che l’applicazione del regolamento non è stata effettuata correttamente. Secondo la WADA, infatti, si deve riscontrare un grado di negligenza da parte di Sinner che ha portato alla contaminazione involontaria, e in base all’articolo 10.6.2 del Tennis Anti Doping Programme (TADP) il periodo di squalifica varia da un massimo di due anni a un minimo della metà in base al grado di colpa riscontrato nell’atleta.
The reddit link with the English translation doesn't work somehow. Its very complex. Before the contamination, Sinner has obviously asked his team, if they were observing doping rules. Wada could say, he should have asked more times. Then there is the question, what stands in the contract between Sinner and his physio team, is there a paragraph with explicit regulations. And there is the question of Sinners right to know, what his team members do against the privancy rights of the team members. It all leaves much room for interpretation and evalution by the Cas panel.
Or their Cook as long they're chinese
Sinner case: what does WADA have to prove to disqualify Jannik?
An analysis of the next steps of Jannik Sinner's positive doping test with some hypotheses on WADA's strategy to disqualify the Italian tennis player
Just when there were only a few hours left until the deadline for filing the appeal and it seemed that the ugly doping story involving Jannik Sinner could be shelved, a cold shower arrived from Montreal with the announcement of an appeal to the TAS (Tribunal Arbitral du Sport, the sports arbitration court in Lausanne) by WADA , according to which the Independent Tribunal's decision on the Sinner case "is not correct according to the applicable rules".
The dust raised by the positivity of the world number 1, which had cleared in recent weeks, has risen forcefully in the world of tennis, reviving a discussion that seemed to have been dormant.
What will happen to Sinner now? What is the risk for the South Tyrolean champion? But above all, what does it mean that WADA believes that Sinner should be suspended between one and two years?
The appeal to the TAS
The institution of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (also called CAS, “Court of Arbitration for Sport” in English) was founded in 1984 by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and has progressively become independent from the IOC (which initially funded it entirely) by creating a specialized division for doping cases since 2016.It is possible to request either direct arbitration or an appeal , after all other attempts at legal redress through the competent forums of the specific sports have been unsuccessful, as happened in this case. The entity requesting the appeal to the CAS must send a written request , the parties initially communicate with each other in writing until a hearing is reached which gives both parties the opportunity to present their case.
The hearing takes place before three arbitrators who may be selected from those included in the CAS list. Each of the two parties involved may choose one arbitrator . The panel of three chosen arbitrators will then in turn appoint one of the arbitrators as president. While the decision of an arbitration is usually communicated a few weeks after the hearing, in the case of an appeal the decision is made known on the same day.
The CAS decision is theoretically appealable to the Swiss Federal Court, but it is very rare for the decision to be overturned except for procedural errors by the judging panel. The overturning almost never occurs on the merits of the case.
What WADA needs to prove
According to the brief statement from WADA announcing the appeal, the anti-doping body did not contest the reconstruction of the facts provided by Sinner's team to the Independent Tribunal and accepted by the judges, but maintains that the application of the regulation was not carried out correctly. According to WADA, in fact, a degree of negligence on Sinner's part must be found that led to the involuntary contamination, and according to Article 10.6.2 of the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme (TADP) the period of disqualification varies from a maximum of two years to a minimum of half based on the degree of fault found in the athlete.According to the Independent Tribunal, Sinner was not considered negligent because his actions in the period immediately preceding the positive tests on 10 and 18 March were considered sufficient to create a situation within his team that could reasonably have prevented inadvertent contamination. Sinner had employed a team of professionals under contract with clauses specifying their role in participating in the athlete Jannik Sinner's anti-doping programme. The athletic trainer Umberto Ferrara, a professional with many years of experience in this field and a degree in pharmacy, was then appointed as the person responsible for this function.
Furthermore, immediately after the accident that caused the cut to the left little finger of the physiotherapist Giacomo Naldi, Sinner questioned Naldi about the nature of the injury and the use of drugs to treat the wound. Naldi reportedly confirmed to Sinner that no drugs had been used to heal the wound, since Ferrara's interest and suggestion regarding Trofodermin (the over-the-counter drug in Italy that contains the banned substance Clostebol) came after Sinner's question.
In the first instance, this behavior of Sinner was considered sufficient to exonerate him from guilt or negligence in the accidental contamination, but WADA does not share the same opinion, and believes that Sinner should have done more. But what can be contested to the Italian athlete?
For the purposes of this analysis, the reconstruction of facts provided by Sinner's team will be considered truthful, since it has not been contested by any of the parties involved so far.
First, WADA could argue that since Naldi suggested that he had used Trofodermin on the wound and bandaged the cut finger for a rather long period of time (around 10 days), Sinner should have asked Naldi once again, during the convalescence of the wound , whether he was using any medication to promote healing. The fact that Sinner's interest was limited to a single question, which inevitably came before the use of the incriminated drug, could be considered negligent behavior on Sinner's part.
Furthermore, WADA could also focus on the presence of Trofodermin itself inside Ferrara's medicine bag and more generally in the accommodation that Sinner shared with his team in Indian Wells during the tournament. One of the most astonishing passages in the story of the Sinner team, in fact, is the one that sees a professional of Ferrara's experience go to an Italian pharmacy to buy a drug notoriously included in the list of prohibited substances and then take it to California during the tournament in which he would have worked closely with Sinner.
Was Ferrara's behavior in violation of the terms of his contract with Sinner? Or was possession of prohibited substances by a staff member during a trip essentially permitted within the Sinner team? If the second hypothesis were to be correct, then WADA could argue , not without reason, that Sinner had not taken sufficient precautions to avoid coming into contact with prohibited substances.
If, instead, the contract between Sinner and his team included a clause that imposed a “sterile zone” (i.e. free of prohibited substances) around the athlete, a clause that Ferrara would therefore have violated, then WADA's attention could shift to how this rule was enforced by Sinner: did he trust that his staff would behave according to the rules or were there control mechanisms in place? The absence of these control mechanisms could constitute a degree of negligence on the part of the Italian tennis player.
Sinner's possible defense
In scenarios like the one above, Sinner may be required to prove that the control or prevention actions described by WADA would have been physically impossible to perform, totally unreasonable, or would have violated some other law in the locations where the team was located and/or in the jurisdiction where Sinner’s contract with his collaborators was based. For example, if a member of Sinner’s team suffered from a medical condition that required the use of a medication containing a prohibited substance, it may be very difficult (if not illegal) for Sinner to enforce that medication not be in the collaborator’s personal effects.One of the key moments in Sinner's defense in the first-degree trial was the involuntary contamination caused by a rather confusing interaction between Ferrara and Naldi. The two men's accounts to the Independent Tribunal were discordant, and the discordance was attributed to the fact that Naldi had just arrived in California from Italy and had not yet recovered from the 9-hour time difference. Is it legitimate to think that Sinner should have interfered in a private exchange between his two collaborators whose existence he probably did not even know, with the justification of protecting his legitimate professional interests?
If so, by extension Sinner should be informed of all interactions by members of his team: is it reasonable? Is it legal?
Gray area and broad discretion
As can be seen, there are many elements that are currently unknown to us that could influence the outcome of the hearing, and that leave ample room for the arbitrators' discretion. The evaluation of the multiple initiatives that Sinner could have legitimately taken to prevent this involuntary contamination is up to the judging panel, and it is a very personal and absolutely subjective evaluation . From this point of view, it is easy to foresee how this involves a non-negligible margin of risk for Sinner, who could become the victim of very onerous standards of prudence that the three judges could consider as "reasonable" to confirm the verdict of "no fault or negligence".The game has just begun, it will probably take several months before the appeal is concluded and the attitude of the members of the judging panel will be decisive.
The only thing that is really unclear about this whole affair is WADA’s decision to invest considerable resources in pursuing an appeal of a case that was accepted as accidental ingestion . WADA’s primary mission “should be” to combat doping, or the voluntary use of prohibited substances for the purpose of performance enhancement. That is not the case. WADA’s website, however, describes the organization’s mission as “ the development, harmonization and coordination of anti-doping rules and policies across all sports and all countries ,” and from this perspective the initiative could set an important precedent for establishing what is acceptable “due diligence” for an athlete to perform in order to be considered not at fault or negligent in the case of accidental ingestion .
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
The doping rules are, or at least were, based on strict liability. If it's in your body then you are, in this case, an unintentional doper.
The fact that his professional team let him down should mitigate the sentence, but it was not my understanding up until now that zero-ban was a possibility.
WADA is correct to appeal or else doping controls are somewhat undermined,
The fact that his professional team let him down should mitigate the sentence, but it was not my understanding up until now that zero-ban was a possibility.
WADA is correct to appeal or else doping controls are somewhat undermined,
I think, the last sentence of the text is important:, that Wada is putting so much emphasis on a self-accepted case of non-intentional, accidental contamination and the - in my view - legally vague and weak point of negligence. Sinner did not go to a doctor, who was called Fuentes. Talking of negligence on the part of Wada: The doping agentur like Wada imo should more and closer look into voluntary, systematic doping for the purpose of performance enhancing in sports, like the intentional use of Epo, anabol steroids, psychopharmaca and other drugs. That should be their primary function, and that they did not do in the case of China, Russia and they showed negligence so often in the past.
PMChambers
Hall of Fame
Stop miss representing the testing. He gave one sample, it was tested twice, once to identify the drug and 2nd time by a seperate lab to verify the first test. He did not fail the test twice, it's the same sample tested twice independently.
He was tested at the AO as all players where and it was negative. He would have been tested again after the positive and it was negative.
If he tested positive once no one would know because it would indicate inconclusive test.
airchallenge2
Hall of Fame
This is news to me. I read that he tested positive one day and a week later. Do you mean they used same sample on both occasions?
RSJfan
Semi-Pro
You guys could try to get a group rate for therapy.
RSJfan
Semi-Pro
You left out Clostebol. The three Italian amigos trying to frame Sinner. I have never seen either of the three play, which itself is suspicious.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Has this new one changed his name from Clostebolli? Porca miseria!
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Sinner fans need to protest outside WADA hq. Stop the appeal process. Sign petitions, something.
optic yellow
Legend
In my experience Clostebol took three days to close mosquito bite scratch wounds that had been previously not healing for more than a week so I think there is strong evidence that Sinner would not have won the Australian Open had he not been partaking in such material.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
I am protesting outside WADA HQ so they upturn the bans of Battaglino and Bortolotti.
If they don't pay attention to me, I will also protest so they retroactively unban Puerta, although he confessed he lied.
By the way, Sinner does not need our help at all for these purposes.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Are there mosquitos in Melbourne? I did not know.
optic yellow
Legend
Mosquitos occupy the joint three way tie with Vespula genus wasps and humans for most sucessful invasive species on earth.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
I would definitely volunteer to test a vax shot, which, if a mosquito bites me, it will instantly die.
I hope Djokovic joins me in the experiment.
optic yellow
Legend
I think you'd probably have to fight to the point of serious physical injury for a spot in that clinical trial.
am1899
Legend
:format(jpeg)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56115107/DGu_g6AUwAACOjm.0.jpg)
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
WADA should be disbanded. They are now killing tennis.
NaDjoFed
Semi-Pro
it is the first time WADA appeals the decision of an indipendent international tribunal. They never did. They did not even appeal vs the 11 chinese swimmers contaminated and trusted the CHINESE doping agency (LOL!). They should also explain why they didn't appeals the now famous "Bortolotto case" which was exactly the same as Sinner. But I have to hear that Sinner has been treated differently.
RSJfan
Semi-Pro
WADA officials will not be allowed to simply disband their criminal enterprise and slink away. There will be arrests. There will be justice for Carrot and for my fav Dr Raul. There will be blood.
USADA CEO Response to WADA’s Statement Regarding Informants
Ironically, the expansive investigations done by USADA and the involved IF demonstrates exactly what WADA should have done with the Chinese swimmers’ positives.
www.usada.org
KennyoFatoBoiyo
New User
It doesn't matter if he's number 1 or how good he is and if people would miss him. He tested positive pure and simple.Who cares where he is from? lol, but yeah the 2 slam winner and world number one, reigning AO champ, last slam winner, and best HC player not playing the AO would be a good thing cause he is boring...
" Smokey this isn't Vietnam....There are rules!! Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a **** about the rules? Mark it zero! "
Impetus
Semi-Pro
This is the best comment in a long long time. If I said it my people would know I'm so full of sarcasm and irony.
With you it's just really funny. Can you also please make a sign for me outside WADA hq that says "the dog ate my homework"?
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Way to trivialize the situation
Zardoz7/12
Hall of Fame
I don't believe Sinner would intentionally dope or cheat but incompetence is still negligence and he should have had his team on a short leash.
The amount of hate he's been receiving is symptomatic of the hive mind of the internet akin to Witch trials to be honest, people picking on his personality, "how could anyone like him?" ect I found to be childish abuse.
If I was a professional tennis player and I do a Gasquet and kiss someone with Cocaine on their lips isn't my incompetence still negligence being a professional athlete?
The amount of hate he's been receiving is symptomatic of the hive mind of the internet akin to Witch trials to be honest, people picking on his personality, "how could anyone like him?" ect I found to be childish abuse.
If I was a professional tennis player and I do a Gasquet and kiss someone with Cocaine on their lips isn't my incompetence still negligence being a professional athlete?
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah, but rules are usually made by idiots. The amount in his body was not helping him in any way.
It is like giving someone a speeding tickets for going 1 kmh over. Can you do it? Sure. Should you? Definitely not.
Similar threads
