On prolonged use
WADA APEALS SINNER CASE
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Bartelby
Bionic Poster
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Knowing how much Wada is a pain to deal with in situations like this, I'm not at all surprised they appealed because he played the entire time while being investigated for 2 failed tests. That's even the part that other players brought up; it's inconsistency compared to other cases where this happens. Tbh, I don’t buy Sinner's story 100% but it would be a huge blow to the tour at this point if he's suspended. We are pretty much at the beginning of a transition era and you need your two best players playing the sport.
Reasonable but should the message be that we are evolving into new heights and so now experimenting with a degree of flexibility, we are willing to compromise with the top players or that we are following the rule-book that has been written for all equally?
uscwang
Hall of Fame
Billionth of a gram, in 1 ml of urine sample.
Could be in the milligram range or higher at peak in the whole body.
Where is the STEM PhD of the board when you need him/her to keep the record straight?
you still on this? even WADA said no enhancement happened because of this contamination
uscwang
Hall of Fame
You are not?
What else is fake in this fiasco?
In my opinion it's not a contamination. He didn't drink vitamin supplements or cough syrup that were contaminated with banned substance.
It's a direct transfer of Clostebol from the physio's body to Sinner's body.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea there's no winner in this situation. If you don't suspend him then this opens the door for the same thing to happen for other top players in the future and if you do, the game suffers and may change the trajectory of tennis with the #1 and a potentially dominant player sidelined. What to do?
Rovesciarete
Hall of Fame
Wada washes its hand while forcing tennis and sport in general in a develish turmoil.
If Sinner gets banned it is the clearest example of an innocent star getting sacrificed to make a draconian example.
If he doesn’t get banned the negligence barrier will get defined so that others might dope through staff members.
Obviously a normal court should never go down the second choice but it is WADA and CAS…
Il your blood values are altered by a substance, it’s contaminated by definition
The proper procedure would be:
- Decide Sinner's case on its merits, not for deterrent purposes.
- Revise the TADP and other WADA-linked anti-doping codes to provide multi-tiered, proportional sanctions to eliminate the draconian aspect. This would make it feasible rather than career-crippling or otherwise unduly punitive to impose sanctions for minor violations.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Not on this forum
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Taking the controversial decision to CAS is deciding the case on its merits.
Doping policy is designed to be draconian and I can't see them changing it.
My previous simple suggestion was to halve the penalties.
If Sinner were looking at one year or less given the quantum that would be fairer.
Doping policy is designed to be draconian and I can't see them changing it.
My previous simple suggestion was to halve the penalties.
If Sinner were looking at one year or less given the quantum that would be fairer.
No, appealing a case is not deciding it. CAS will decide the case, not WADA. WADA is advocating for a severe penalty. We'll have to see what CAS does and how it explains its decision.
I don't misunderstand anything about this process. Everything you write here is self-servingly jumbled. You just said, "Taking the controversial decision to CAS is deciding the case on its merits." That is wrong. "Taking the decision to CAS" is what WADA is doing -- appealing the case. That is not deciding it, on its merits or otherwise. That's called appealing. The actual decision will be made in the future by CAS. This is elementary, so I don't see what you are trying to debate.
Now you're saying -- as if it were some sort of revelation -- that WADA must "present reasons" to support its penalty request. Obviously. But making arguments is still not deciding the case. CAS will decide. And exactly how CAS will decide it remains to be seen. There is no guarantee of a careful, reasonable, impartial decision on the merits. That's what we hope for, but we might get the opposite.
AgassiSuperSlam11
Hall of Fame
Will chime in late on this topic and I just see plenty of misinformation on drug testing and results. For example, the fact that an athlete tests positive for just a small amount of a banned substance suggests somehow, they weren't getting much of an advantage or that it was just accidental contamination. LOL. What they fail to recognize is that it's both presumptuous and pretentions to know what amount ACTUALLY is in a athlete's system. This is because of masking agents, designer drugs, and diuretics. If you are cheating, you are trying to cycle off the drugs or hide them and when caught it's often only a small trace. We discussed Chemistry 101 and half-life of substances in the past. There is a reason why a doc may prescribe a RX once, twice, or maybe 3 times a day due to how long it stays in your blood. The use of blood passports isn't the most effective especially when there isn't many year-round blood testing while out of competition. Most of my posts on this subject have been deleted but a few remain, and people are free to search by member "Agassisuperslam" and subject HGH, EPO, or banned substances on this topic. Kralingen also had some decent posts on the topic. The fact remains Tennis still uses many antiquated testing methods as the reliance on urine which is limited in finding many substances. I posted the number of tests conducted and urine and blood frequency (believe also deleted).
#1 This entire notion that these "independent' arbiters and tribunals are fair, and objective is analogous to suggesting an Independent Medical Exam (IME) is fair only because a defense physician signs an oath. Expert witnesses often have conflicting opinions on various scientific data. Litigants need notice and getting info
on their qualifications and other proper disclosure (this is why CPLR §3101 and FRCP Rule 26(a)(2) exist and other requirements). Nonetheless, the tribunal made their decisions limited to the information they can "see" and "not what they can't see." We'll eventually what the result of the WADA appeal to the Court of Arbitration brings.
#2 If you think Sinner is innocent that is fine. However, think about this you have trained and qualified physio people not using gloves and contaminating a player with a banned substance that has a "doping" warning and is not even legally obtainable in the US without a Rx. Yes, I heard about the "cut finger" and spray but this is still breach of fiduciary duty. Moreover, pretty weird only to terminate your team when the info became public NOT when you knew about the positive tests months ago. If professionals you trust, exposed you to a possible ban due to their negligence you would eliminate them ASAP not months later when it's public.
It's the trained servant, employee, or contractor's duty to make sure they are fully aware of the entire list of banned substances which is readily available even to the public online. It's negligence in deviating from acceptable therapeutic practices in contaminating a player with a conspicuous banned substance (warning label) without gloves (contamination possibility) which means a trainer/physio has actual and constructive notice and still deviates from accepted practice standards and protocols while demonstrating a blatant disregard for their professional and fiduciary responsibility. BTW, we all heard stories about inadvertent exposure due to eating contaminated meat with elevated hormones which gave positive results. At this point you would expect professional athletes and Olympians to be more careful with what they eat (that is if you really believe their stories). Sinner collectively was 0-9 against Meddy and Novak but turned it around to 9-2 in his last 11 matches which Is possible; but certainly, opened some eyes with the two positive test results.
#3 I dealt with professional athletes in two different capacities. At one time, I interviewed several athletes as I was granted interviews through their publicist when I had a sports website. Secondly, I worked for a finance company that actually was involved in sports promotion. I'm acquainted with these "mickey mouse" contracts. If you are a world class athlete, you'll usually have both a "Breach of Confidentiality" and "Indemnification" clause included amongst other items to be signed by your agents. The confidentiality aspect would include protection against unauthorized release of personal info, financial info, and medical info. The Indemnification clause will have language included regardless if you are an employee or independent contractor that if the employee/contractor, "causes any harm by the individual's fault, negligence, or breach of duty they agree to Indemnify (name of athlete, holding co., LLC if applicable) for any harm or harms caused directly or indirectly bla bla bla."
Posters have stated like a broken record, "accidental exposure" and "no negligence." However, if the negligence was committed by his team, you would expect Indemnifications as he did lose money ($300k or whatever) and damage to his reputation by the reckless and negligent actions committed by his servant, employee, or contractor." If you are 100% innocent, you seek Indemnification without any trepidation. Simply terminating your team is not indemnification for losses. Sinner has
a major deal with Nike and other sponsors and all this negative publicity is exclusively the result of the negligence of his team he would seek indemnification. Now is drip...drip...drip of bad publicity all due to the allege negligence of his team. If he gets indemnified the money can simply be given to charity and it's a win-win situation. Interesting to see if Sinner gets banned (not that I care much either way as PED suspensions is analogous to giving speeding tickets in the INDY 500). Will Sinner seek further action against his team if he suffers more personal and monetary losses "due to their gross negligence and deviance from accepted protocols?" I think plenty of more info will come in the following weeks and months as this story further develops.
#1 This entire notion that these "independent' arbiters and tribunals are fair, and objective is analogous to suggesting an Independent Medical Exam (IME) is fair only because a defense physician signs an oath. Expert witnesses often have conflicting opinions on various scientific data. Litigants need notice and getting info
on their qualifications and other proper disclosure (this is why CPLR §3101 and FRCP Rule 26(a)(2) exist and other requirements). Nonetheless, the tribunal made their decisions limited to the information they can "see" and "not what they can't see." We'll eventually what the result of the WADA appeal to the Court of Arbitration brings.
#2 If you think Sinner is innocent that is fine. However, think about this you have trained and qualified physio people not using gloves and contaminating a player with a banned substance that has a "doping" warning and is not even legally obtainable in the US without a Rx. Yes, I heard about the "cut finger" and spray but this is still breach of fiduciary duty. Moreover, pretty weird only to terminate your team when the info became public NOT when you knew about the positive tests months ago. If professionals you trust, exposed you to a possible ban due to their negligence you would eliminate them ASAP not months later when it's public.
It's the trained servant, employee, or contractor's duty to make sure they are fully aware of the entire list of banned substances which is readily available even to the public online. It's negligence in deviating from acceptable therapeutic practices in contaminating a player with a conspicuous banned substance (warning label) without gloves (contamination possibility) which means a trainer/physio has actual and constructive notice and still deviates from accepted practice standards and protocols while demonstrating a blatant disregard for their professional and fiduciary responsibility. BTW, we all heard stories about inadvertent exposure due to eating contaminated meat with elevated hormones which gave positive results. At this point you would expect professional athletes and Olympians to be more careful with what they eat (that is if you really believe their stories). Sinner collectively was 0-9 against Meddy and Novak but turned it around to 9-2 in his last 11 matches which Is possible; but certainly, opened some eyes with the two positive test results.
#3 I dealt with professional athletes in two different capacities. At one time, I interviewed several athletes as I was granted interviews through their publicist when I had a sports website. Secondly, I worked for a finance company that actually was involved in sports promotion. I'm acquainted with these "mickey mouse" contracts. If you are a world class athlete, you'll usually have both a "Breach of Confidentiality" and "Indemnification" clause included amongst other items to be signed by your agents. The confidentiality aspect would include protection against unauthorized release of personal info, financial info, and medical info. The Indemnification clause will have language included regardless if you are an employee or independent contractor that if the employee/contractor, "causes any harm by the individual's fault, negligence, or breach of duty they agree to Indemnify (name of athlete, holding co., LLC if applicable) for any harm or harms caused directly or indirectly bla bla bla."
Posters have stated like a broken record, "accidental exposure" and "no negligence." However, if the negligence was committed by his team, you would expect Indemnifications as he did lose money ($300k or whatever) and damage to his reputation by the reckless and negligent actions committed by his servant, employee, or contractor." If you are 100% innocent, you seek Indemnification without any trepidation. Simply terminating your team is not indemnification for losses. Sinner has
a major deal with Nike and other sponsors and all this negative publicity is exclusively the result of the negligence of his team he would seek indemnification. Now is drip...drip...drip of bad publicity all due to the allege negligence of his team. If he gets indemnified the money can simply be given to charity and it's a win-win situation. Interesting to see if Sinner gets banned (not that I care much either way as PED suspensions is analogous to giving speeding tickets in the INDY 500). Will Sinner seek further action against his team if he suffers more personal and monetary losses "due to their gross negligence and deviance from accepted protocols?" I think plenty of more info will come in the following weeks and months as this story further develops.
Jannik Sinner will have to wait until early 2025 to learn the outcome of the World Anti-Doping Agency’s appeal over his failed drug tests, according to reports.
Italian newspaper la Repubblica has claimed the verdict of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) on Sinner’s case will arrive in 2025 and added that the ruling will “probably” come in February.
Jannik Sinner learns when appeal verdict in his anti-doping case is likely to arrive
Jannik Sinner has found out when he will learn the outcome of the World Anti-Doping Agency's appeal in his anti-doping case, according to reports.
www.tennis365.com
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
I see what they are doing. Ban him for 6 months between Feb to July. Maybe before wimby he is back.Jannik Sinner will have to wait until early 2025 to learn the outcome of the World Anti-Doping Agency’s appeal over his failed drug tests, according to reports.
Italian newspaper la Repubblica has claimed the verdict of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) on Sinner’s case will arrive in 2025 and added that the ruling will “probably” come in February.
Jannik Sinner learns when appeal verdict in his anti-doping case is likely to arrive
Jannik Sinner has found out when he will learn the outcome of the World Anti-Doping Agency's appeal in his anti-doping case, according to reports.
I think some sort of ban is definitely coming now. Sadly.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
The ban might start from the day of the Tribunal decision.
Sinner can pick his own "judge":
The newspaper also reported that the three-arbitrator panel that will hear WADA’s appeal will feature one arbitrator selected by CAS, one by WADA, and one by Sinner.
Sinner can pick his own "judge":
The newspaper also reported that the three-arbitrator panel that will hear WADA’s appeal will feature one arbitrator selected by CAS, one by WADA, and one by Sinner.
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I don't know if he's innocent but I feel the same about any of them that failed drug tests and came up with contamination reasons. Whether he's innocent or not, no one really knows but him and those close to him but this isn't so much about that but in the inconsistency in this case and how others were handled. So tennis is in a tough spot with this because the #1 player and probably YE #1 is facing suspension because Wada doesn't want a case like this to happen again.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Sinner was immediately suspended because he tested positive. This is due to the principle of strict liability. Hence, he is "guilty" without needing to consider intention.
There was probably no intention and the result was probably due to the professional incompetence of his agents, so my best guess is that over 4 months and under 12 months suspension is warranted.
This would start from the date of the Tribunal decision and, hence, he would lose his USO prize money and ranking points. Quite a swingeing punishment!
There was probably no intention and the result was probably due to the professional incompetence of his agents, so my best guess is that over 4 months and under 12 months suspension is warranted.
This would start from the date of the Tribunal decision and, hence, he would lose his USO prize money and ranking points. Quite a swingeing punishment!
airchallenge2
Hall of Fame
Not sure what dark web is. Google?
Here is a quick search for medlonium and russian soldiers:
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
This is an old and tired piece of American propaganda that you've fallen for, unfortunately, but drugs and war do have a long history.
The Soviets did lose the Afghan War, so Meldo can't be that good!
The Soviets did lose the Afghan War, so Meldo can't be that good!
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JJGUY
Hall of Fame
if that's how it started, I am more convinced it's placebo to fool the soviet soldiers, a propaganda magic pill
Topspin_80
Hall of Fame
Fantastic post
Too bad that 98% of this forum posters and lurkers, can't bear themselves to read it, it's way too much info, their
brains can't process that much, so they'll skip it.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
If you sue your team for damages due to their negligence, as per AgassiSuperSlam, then your team of friendly witnesses at the Tribunal suddenly become damaging to you getting off scot-free and back to tennis.
Fantastic post
Too bad that 98% of this forum posters and lurkers, can't bear themselves to read it, it's way too much info, their
brains can't process that much, so they'll skip it.
AgassiSuperSlam11
Hall of Fame
I think reading some of the "other" comments it appears some posters aren't too familiar with deposed statements and testimony especially when presented with irrefutable evidence.Fantastic post
Too bad that 98% of this forum posters and lurkers, can't bear themselves to read it, it's way too much info, their
brains can't process that much, so they'll skip it.
Moreover, there are plenty of ways to get indemnification without filing any legal action. A good portion of cases are settled without even the filing of a complaint and serving it to a process server. Sinner's team was already terminated (are they "still friendly"), and we don't know if they signed a separation agreement or non-disclosure.
In fact, plenty of ways to get indemnified and executing releases while having an NDA and a Non-disparagement agreement. The bottom line it goes back to my premise that he didn't fire his team initially and only until this whole thing became public. There might be reasons for that hesitancy.
islappadaface
New User
The hearings, interviews, and other proceedings took months to complete. Sinner was obviously not going to make such a decision until all of the facts were brought to bear and everything was confirmed. He clearly did not make this decision until he felt 100% certain, considering they had been together as a team for several years without incident.
His results align perfectly with a talented player improving his consistency. The experts found the story plausible because the two positive sets came back with roughly the same trace amounts, which would have made a deliberate doping scheme a ridiculous theory because if Sinner had taken a high dosage well before the tournament, the level at the second test should have gone down from the time of the first positive test, which would have been 8 days closer to the administration.
AgassiSuperSlam11
Hall of Fame
Why did he wait until the story became public to finally terminate his team? Consistent with damage control. As far as the trace amounts that is ONLY what is found in the urine as nobody knows due to masking and diuretics if there are undetected metabolites.
It was not a slow improvement as he went from 0-9 against Meddy/Djokovic to 9-2 in the next 11 matches. Djokovic won 3 slams in 2023 and was 0-3 against him and then won 3 out of the next 4. Many players like Lendl eventually turned things around as he did with Connors but that was after1983 when Connors won his last slams.
I actually like Sinner and think the sport needs him and Alcaraz to dominate in the future. However, it's fair to pose questions about this entire fiasco. My gut tells me plenty of more information will eventually get released or leaked in the coming weeks and months.
Alcawrath
Professional
I feel like there's no good solution here. Listening to Roddick's podcast I kind of began to understand why WADA has to address this. If they just excuse him for "not knowing" about his trainer's indiscretion then that will become the standard excuse of people who are intentionally doping (which I don't think Sinner was). IDK what the answer is but the tour is better off with him playing in it.
islappadaface
New User
I think my speculation is more in-line with the character of Sinner vs the theory that his successes were due to doping. You are alleging a deliberate PED scheme and a massive coverup. I am simply alleging that Sinner had an incompetent physio.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Even an incompetent physio using a banned substance should get you at least a four-month ban.
Cilic innocently bought a product in another country that he had bought elsewhere and knew to be dope free.
This version of the product contained dope. On this precedent, then team error is worth a half year suspension for Sinner.
Cilic innocently bought a product in another country that he had bought elsewhere and knew to be dope free.
This version of the product contained dope. On this precedent, then team error is worth a half year suspension for Sinner.
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Highly unlikely. The claim of ignorance would still need to be consistent with the nature of the exposure. It's one thing to invoke TADP 10.5 to address an accidental cross-contamination caused by a physio's short-term use of a product containing a banned substance. But it would be preposterous to attempt this defense in a situation in which there were any indicia of long-term intentional doping. A positive drug test is not the only way to prove that regular PED use was occurring. In fact, it's probably not even the best way (though it may be an essential component). See TADP sec. 3.2.1 ("Facts related to Anti-Doping Rule Violations may be established by any reliable means, including admissions.").
JJGUY
Hall of Fame
We will never know the truth here, that's why I prefer a suspension of 4 or 6 months, in line with the length other athletes had received under similar situation, once he comes back, he will be clean, even if he had really doped, all the performance enhancing would be gone by then, he will have a clean slate, we can all move on.
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AgassiSuperSlam11
Hall of Fame
Not exactly, but I think suspicion is fair with any positive test especially when trained and qualified people have an egregious screw-up. However, I've seen worse screw-ups including failing to diagnosis cancer despite ultrasounds and biopsies.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
We already know the truth. He tested positive. His team implicated themselves. This means he should have been banned for anywhere between 4 and 15 months, but closer to the former.
airchallenge2
Hall of Fame
The Americans lost the Afghan war, too. Just saying. Also, the East Germans had the best PEDs in the world, at the time. The communist block was pretty good at this....
Topspin_80
Hall of Fame
"I think reading some of the "other" comments it appears some posters aren't too familiar with deposed statements and testimony especially when presented with irrefutable evidence."
Most of the folks here, just don't read enough, they read the news header, and from there they create their own narrative.
From most of them, there's no need of research, they already closed the case.
It is quite unusual that if someone is the owner of an enterprise, and that enterprise has been wrecked by some workers, the
owner decides to fire them 5 months down the road.
It's truly hard to believe something like that. It's so hard, that I just can't buy it.
To my eyes, Sinner is a doper period.
And I'm sad to say that, since I was a fan of him since he was 17.
The truth is, 2x positive doping test result.
VanDerVaart23
Rookie
Sinner: (2 seconds after his positive test)"Naldi and Ferrara are the masterminds of my accidental doping, they are "professionals" even Ferrara a pharmaceutical expert, but he brought the drug, and Naldi applied it on me!!! Villains!... Ah but they can stay with me 6 more months..."
Come on!!!
Come on!!!
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