WADA offered Sinner a deal, most likely to avoid getting their system blown up by CAS

Our favourite Bart fails to mention that it is an authoritarian one-party state led by the CPC.
There are only a handful of one-party states in the world. The rest of the world prefers freedom of choice.

one-party-states-v0-e4bmbv8yntwb1.png

CCP and N. Korea, two of your favs. Your other fav the former USSR current revanchist gas station has a vibrant multi-party democracy.
 
New development as shared by BCC.


They tried to convince Sinner to enter negotiation twice. Sinner initially wants to wait until April but lawyers don’t want him to take the risk of a lengthier ban. This WADA organization is really a big joke. Can ITIA separated themselves from WADA please?
 
New development as shared by BCC.


They tried to convince Sinner to enter negotiation twice. Sinner initially wants to wait until April but lawyers don’t want him to take the risk of a lengthier ban. This WADA organization is really a big joke. Can ITIA separated themselves from WADA please?

Interesting reporting, probably deserves its own good thread. The first appeal was against the ITIA, the second and third to Sinner as they feared to lose in front of CAS...

Lots of good info even if the BBC tried hard to 'balance' it by mentioning the nut cases and the ignorant.

P.S: Good to see that Sinner is skiing a lot in the Dolomites, weather was great these days!
 
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The ITIA created this problem by convening a Tribunal which wandered into the legal error of believing a players' agents could take all the blame.

New development as shared by BCC.


They tried to convince Sinner to enter negotiation twice. Sinner initially wants to wait until April but lawyers don’t want him to take the risk of a lengthier ban. This WADA organization is really a big joke. Can ITIA separated themselves from WADA please?
 
New development as shared by BCC.


They tried to convince Sinner to enter negotiation twice. Sinner initially wants to wait until April but lawyers don’t want him to take the risk of a lengthier ban. This WADA organization is really a big joke. Can ITIA separated themselves from WADA please?

No. It doesn’t make any sense. You probably mean can the ITF separate from WADA. The ITF is a WADA signatory. The ITIA is the ITFs third party delegated authority to administer the TADP.

In any case, tennis isn’t leaving the WADA system. Tennis doesn’t want to become a backwater, doping infested sport.

There is nothing alarming about WADA sometimes disagreeing with an ADO that declines to appeal itself. It‘s a feature of the WADA anti-doping system to keep NADOs like Raul’s fav RUSADA from facilitating state sponsored doping.
 
No. It doesn’t make any sense. You probably mean can the ITF separate from WADA. The ITF is a WADA signatory. The ITIA is the ITFs third party delegated authority to administer the TADP.

In any case, tennis isn’t leaving the WADA system. Tennis doesn’t want to become a backwater, doping infested sport.

There is nothing alarming about WADA sometimes disagreeing with an ADO that declines to appeal itself. It‘s a feature of the WADA anti-doping system to keep NADOs like Raul’s fav RUSADA from facilitating state sponsored doping.

Interesting, so ITF just can’t establish its own rules like the NBA or NFL? I do despite how WADA handled the media aspect of Sinner’s case. Very unprofessional.
 
Interesting reporting, probably deserves its own good thread. The first appeal was against the ITIA, the second and third to Sinner as they feared to lose in front of CAS...


Only one appeal: an appeal by WADA from the decision of the tennis independent tribunal. The rest is settlement discussions.

Article first gets the basis of WADA appeal correct: “Wada, while not challenging the tribunal's overall decision, appealed against the panel's ruling that Sinner "bore no fault or negligence.”

Later it gets it very wrong and writes “Wada felt the independent tribunal should have punished Sinner for strict liability - that he was ultimately responsible for failing the two drugs tests.”

Wrong and completely at odds with the previous correct statement. The entire appeal was a disagreement on fault. WADA didn’t want him punished on the principle of strict liability they wanted him punished because they thought he bore some level of fault: their view is you can’t pin it on your teams negligence and be without fault.

The WADA Code uses strict liability to determine anti-doping rule violations. It uses strict liability to take away prize money and points if you test positive in-competition. But it does not use strict liability to determine any other punishments such as reprimand, fine or suspension. If looks at mental state: your intent and the degree of fault, if any.
 
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America operates according a very peculiar idea. It encourages the setting up of international organisations like WADA and then mostly refuses to either join or comply with them.

Interesting, so ITF just can’t establish its own rules like the NBA or NFL? I do despite how WADA handled the media aspect of Sinner’s case. Very unprofessional.
 
Interesting, so ITF just can’t establish its own rules like the NBA or NFL? I do despite how WADA handled the media aspect of Sinner’s case. Very unprofessional.
It’s been discussed here before.

I’ve been arguing throughout the Carrot saga that maybe tennis should leave. But now that the Carrot case is resolved to Raul’s not perfect but general satisfaction I no longer have to present this ridiculous position. :giggle: It was only a litigation strategy that me and Raul developed through telepathy to plant the idea in the minds of TTW posters in order to place additional public pressure on WADA. Even the USADA with all its whinging about WADA is not suggesting any US sports entity leaving it just wants an audit (maybe a change of some personnel ?) and more aggressive not less aggressive enforcement of the Code.
 
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It’s been discussed here before.

I’ve been arguing throughout the Carrot saga that maybe tennis should leave. But now that the Carrot case is resolved to Raul’s not perfect but general satisfaction I no longer have to present this stupid position. :giggle: Even the USADA will all its whinging about WADA is not suggesting any US sports entity leaving it just wants an audit (maybe a change of some personal?) and more aggressive not less aggressive enforcement of the Code.

Yes I saw your proposition, hence my suggesting to leave. But again a danger zone to enter. WADA has repeatedly said athletes ask for tougher sanction but clearly in this case, they recognized anything harder than 3 months is ridiculous. Their statement and rules don’t align at all, and their propositions throughout the timeline change.

Sinner’s position actually never changed. He said I always believe that I am responsible for my team and all the necessary measures have taken to ensure that. He said the same thing in the final resolution too. This case is overall bizarre and I am quite sure if they go to court, WADA will probably lose the lawsuit. Or else they wouldn’t reach out twice for settlement.
 
Yes I saw your proposition, hence my suggesting to leave. But again a danger zone to enter. WADA has repeatedly said athletes ask for tougher sanction but clearly in this case, they recognized anything harder than 3 months is ridiculous.
+1
Their statement and rules don’t align at all, and their propositions throughout the timeline change.
I would say they realized they needed to “evolve” because they were presenting CAS with bad choices. :)
Sinner’s position actually never changed. He said I always believe that I am responsible for my team and all the necessary measures have taken to ensure that. He said the same thing in the final resolution too.
Exactly. Some have spun his statement to mean he acknowledged he is at fault. Nope. That was a carefully worded statement to satisfy WADA. I’m with your reading.

This case is overall bizarre and I am quite sure if they go to court, WADA will probably lose the lawsuit. Or else they wouldn’t reach out twice for settlement.

You mean to a brand new arbitration (at CAS). I already gave my opinion on why WADA settled which mostly aligns with WADA’s GC except I had any additional reason but understand why WADA would not mention a tribunal ignoring the Code sanction rules to fashion a more “fair” sanction. And WADA GC suggests “winning” and Carrot getting a year min is not something WADA thought was a good result anyway. WADA cares more about protecting the principle that you can’t pin it on your team and walk then the length of the sanction in its current Code version.

But Carrot’s lawyer told him what every lawyer on the planet has told every client that has ever taken a settlement in a disciplinary proceeding (or a plea in a criminal one): you can’t predict what the “jury” will do.
 
There is no jury and most, including @RSJfan, predicted a minimum 12 months ban. Instead WADA offered him a sweetheart deal, not a plea deal or settlement.

Sinner was too important a commercial asset to subject to the usual process from the beginning to the end.

I feel for those punished by WADA too unimportant for a "settlement".
 
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+1

I would say they realized they needed to “evolve” because they were presenting CAS with bad choices. :)

Exactly. Some have spun his statement to mean he acknowledged he is at fault. Nope. That was a carefully worded statement to satisfy WADA. I’m with your reading.

Jury implies this is a public court case. You mean the 3 judges.

You mean to a brand new arbitration (at CAS). I already gave my opinion on why WADA settled which mostly aligns with WADA’s GC except I had any additional reason but understand why WADA would not mention a tribunal ignoring the Code sanction rules to fashion a more “fair” sanction. And WADA GC suggests “winning” and Carrot getting a year min is not something WADA thought was a good result anyway. WADA cares more about protecting the principle that you can’t pin it on your team and walk then the length of the sanction in its current Code version.

But Carrot’s lawyer told him what every lawyer on the planet has told every client that has ever taken a settlement in a disciplinary proceeding (or a plea in a criminal one): you can’t predict what the “jury” will do.

If I understand correctly, you are saying WADA doing all this just to prove a point that ITIA did their job wrong based on WADA current code…and WADA wants to be the one who determine the ban length. so the whole resolution was meant to happen this whole time ? Because if it is going to CAS, it is going to be at least 1 or nothing.

It is clearly to prove a point but is it worth it? I feel like they open a can of worms. I hope it is a prequel to their new law, or else this case will be used again and again by other athletes.
 
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There is no jury and everyone, including @RSJfan, predicted a minimum 12 months ban. Instead WADA offered him a sweetheart deal, not a plea deal or settlement.

Sinner was too important a commercial asset to subject to the usual process from the beginning to the end.

I feel for those punished by WADA too unimportant for a "settlement".

I don’t know about the commercial asset aspect. Feel like there are way more popular tennis players/athletes. Isn’t everyone saying he is boring and not known outside of Italy beside tennis people. It is not like he is Novak or Alcaraz or Ben Shelton. Also tennis (unlike football, American football, basketball) is not a very popular sport to have that pull.
 
He is the world's no.1 and the pride and joy of Italy. The commercial and political pressure (from Italy) required to make WADA buckle is not high.

I don’t know about the commercial asset aspect. Feel like there are way more popular tennis players. It is not like he is Novak or Alcaraz or Ben Shelton. Also tennis is not a very popular sport to have that pull.
 
I don't think you understand how WADA operates or how commercial interests and political pressure operates behind the scenes.

Italy has no political power and Jannik sinner so far at least for now has no international commercial pull as an athlete. Like he is no Jude Bellingham or Kylian Mbappe or Steph curry.

Athletes have so short shelf lives. If he gets banned 1-2 years, there will be replacement. Fonsceca and the alike already gets PR. There is no consequence in dropping Jannik. (If anything, tennis players are the most disposable. Look at Novak being kicked out of Australia… like he is like the best and no amount of political power can protect him. And that that is for vaccination. We are talking about doping here )

I stand my ground that he is NOT a doper. Very sure of this from a science/medical standpoint. I am just pissed by all the conspiracy calling him doping. Very stupid. How the legal stuff panned out sucks for Sinner’s team. So much drama. So much damage. So little to prove. If I am Sinner, I would be so mad.
 
You are judging this on a rather overly-fine scale of your own devising. It only takes a handful of important people to start pushing and tennis and WADA will fold.

In any event, I can't agree that Sinner was not important enough for "mountains to be moved".

Novak is Serbian so that played a big role in Australia kicking him out. But before the government backflipped, they had changed the rules to get him into the country!

Italy has no political power and Jannik sinner so far at least for now has no international commercial pull as an athlete. Like he is no Jude Bellingham or Kylian Mbappe or Steph curry.

Athletes have so short shelf lives. If he gets banned 1-2 years, there will be replacement. Fonsceca and the alike already gets PR. There is no consequence in dropping Jannik. (If anything, tennis players are the most disposable. Look at Novak being kicked out of Australia… like he is like the best and no amount of political power can protect him. And that that is for vaccination. We are talking about doping here )

I stand my ground that he is NOT a doper. Very sure of this from a science/medical standpoint. I am just pissed by all the conspiracy calling him doping. Very stupid. How the legal stuff panned out sucks for Sinner’s team. So much drama. So much damage. So little to prove. If I am Sinner, I would be so mad.
 
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If I understand correctly, you are saying WADA doing all this just to prove a point that ITIA did their job wrong based on WADA current code

Read what the WADA GC said and come to your own conclusion.

IMO the most important point for WADA is the one they have stated all along -- that the three independent arbitrators comprising the Sports Resolution Tribunal (about time the conspiracy and/or it's all corrupt posters start identifying exactly who they are tarring with these made up offenses) didn't get the facts wrong they applied the rules wrong. In WADA's opinion -- which is not shared by Raul or me -- the facts can not reasonably lead to a finding of No Fault. Because allegedly the Code is clear on that and allegedly the case law is clear as well. :rolleyes:

…and WADA wants to be the one who determine the ban length. so the whole resolution was meant to happen this whole time ? Because if it is going to CAS, it is going to be at least 1 or nothing.

Not exactly. WADA never determines whether a ban should be imposed or, if so, for how long. That is way out of its role. WADA initially wanted CAS to agree with its opinion on the finding of fault and then for the CAS Tribunal to robotically apply the Code sanctions scheme, which for this case under the current version of the Code would mean 1-2 years. They put a potential CAS tribunal in a difficult bind: No time or 1 year. Or ignore the Code sanctions scheme.

I've posted countless times my theory why a CAS tribunal does not have to robotically follow the sanctions scheme and should not in this case. They should not even approach the issue because they should leave alone the first instant decision of No Fault.

I've discussed all of this many times. It does not get more interesting with repetition when I write it. I doubt it does reading it. Agree or not.

Me and Raul are for the most part OK with the case resolution if Sinner is even though WADA screwed him. Me and Raul are not legal theorists or devising the perfect anti-doping code. We just want Carrot off because we think he's innocent meaning he never intended to dope and he can't do a year because of his grossly negligent employees. In fact, he can't do any time that would interrupt playing at the majors or his home M1000. We don't care about the other events. :giggle:

It is clearly to prove a point but is it worth it? I feel like they open a can of worms. I hope it is a prequel to their new law, or else this case will be used again and again by other athletes.

Ask WADA. The principle is very important to WADA.

No can of worms is open. Doping cases are very fact specific. None of this is precedent. It's only a (very high visibility) CRA.

I think WADA made its point though. IMO the actionable lesson that a player should take from this case is you better police your team. If you want to take other lessons about the importance of a good defense or considerations granted to the #1 player that's fine but I'd be real careful about the team.
 
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Sharapova did not get off the hook by saying her grossly negligent employee didn't read the email banning Meldonium.

She got the appropriate punishment of 15 months whereas Sinner got the sweetheart deal of 3 months.
 
Wow, that would be a shock for me if we didn’t see him back there. I feel like Rome is Djokovic’s favourite clay event outside RG.

You don’t think he will want to have some official farewell there regardless of this PR Ground War that has flared with Sinner?
Novak loved Rome and he was always very popular, but he is well aware now of the hatred towards him from Sinner fans and it seems sadly some of those fans have links to extremist groups so i would think Novak will not take any risks.
 
Novak loved Rome and he was always very popular, but he is well aware now of the hatred towards him from Sinner fans and it seems sadly some of those fans have links to extremist groups so i would think Novak will not take any risks.
Fair. Im not a Djokovic fan but for me it wouldn’t be right if he didn’t get a send off there. As you say, though, it’s a tricky proposition with the crowd.
 
For starters on drugs:
- if 1/billionth of a gram is determined 100% in all phases of analysis as “contamination” and too little to be multi dosing the product with zero enhancement, then set a tolerance level to trigger a failed doping test per drug:amount.

- appeals process; what sinner and Iga had were generous. Helip had a supplement contamination and it was 0 tolerance.

Allow ALL players to appeal and play during the appeals process. Both sinner and Iga’s failures were swept under the rug until they weren’t.
 
Fair. Im not a Djokovic fan but for me it wouldn’t be right if he didn’t get a send off there. As you say, though, it’s a tricky proposition with the crowd.

Sadly I think Novak risks a bad send-off there, as many fans are picturing dark motives behind his uneducated comments about 'unequal treatment'. Which would be tragic, given his amazing body of work in Rome.

For my part, I think he is just uniformed like most and likes to be seen as the 'vox athletarum', the voice of (his) athletes.
 
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Not exactly. WADA never determines whether a ban should be imposed or, if so, for how long. That is way out of its role. WADA initially wanted CAS to agree with its opinion on the finding of fault and then for the CAS Tribunal to robotically apply the Code sanctions scheme, which for this case under the current version of the Code would mean 1-2 years. They put a potential CAS tribunal in a difficult bind: No time or 1 year. Or ignore the Code sanctions scheme.

I've posted countless times my theory why a CAS tribunal does not have to robotically follow the sanctions scheme and should not in this case. They should not even approach the issue because they should leave alone the first instant decision of No Fault.
[...]
And that is exactly why WADA should _not_ settle and let CAS to its thing. I too agree that a 1 year (or more) ban would be too harsh of a penalty. But if you believe that CAS does not have to follow the sanctions scheme to the letter, and can instead impose its own penalty that it sees as fair - and I agree with that - then that means WADA did not
put a potential CAS tribunal in a difficult bind: No time or 1 year.
Because CAS could and probably would have, impose some smaller ban. Perhaps 3 months. Which would make the whole thing look soo much better: the process would have been followed, WADA would have been seen as having correctly appealed ITIA decision, CAS would have ruled that Sinner is somewhat at fault for the actions of his team - which even Sinner agrees with now, there would have been no perception of 'secret deal'. The only thing would be that the ban, since handed down after CAS hearing, would mean that Sinner would have to miss some Grand Slam(s), and that CAS decision would clearly look as 'Sinner is somewhat at fault'. Instead of the 'official perception now': Sinner very reluctantly and graciously agreed to a deal offered by WADA, only after some serious convincing and following the advise by his lawyers. Please......
 
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