Waiter's Tray vs High Level Serving Technique- What's Out There?

C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The question is -

For all tennis players out there who have had some tennis experience, a few years of playing tennis or more, and are interested in tennis, what percentage are currently using:

1) Waiter's Tray serving technique. The arm does not rotate much and racket head speed is developed mostly from joint extensions, etc.. Racket not edge-on in videos.

2) The high level serving, such as by ATP and WTA servers. The high level serve is based on using internal shoulder rotation, arm rotation for added racket head speed. Racket edge-on in videos. Call it ISR Serve or "High Level Serve".

%?

The observations of posters with some coaching or instructing experience would be especially valuable. Do the best you can to give an estimate, any details that you think are relevant would be very interesting.

Over that last two years, I have evaluated the serves of many TW posters. I'm estimating roughly -

~50% Waiter's Tray technique for the submitted videos that I have evaluated.

I would say that most of these players have played tennis for several years and are serious about their tennis. Most want to improve their serves so they are not a representative sample of average servers.

Everyone can easily see whether they are using a Waiter's Tray technique in any video by looking for edge-on or face-on to the ball before the final racket motion to the ball. If the racket is face-on to the ball - then the racket is not about to rotate up - it's Waiter's Tray. Search TW, 'show posts' for details: Waiter's Tray Chas. Video your serve and post whether WT or other High Level Serve or Unknown.

This is edge-on to the ball in a high level serve. Edge-on is a momentary checkpoint and not perfectly edge-on. Edge-on is almost always easy to distinguish from face-on.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/nalbandian_l.php

Pat Doughterty, Hammer That Serve video. He discusses two serving techniques, listen carefully. The Hammer that Serve part is describing Waiter's Tray. The "Advanced Serve" part is about the High Level Serve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXJGsRtm08
 
Last edited:
Doesn't the guy who beat Fed at the Aussie employ a short modified "waiter's tray" serve?
His serves seem 120's, his second serve well into the highest 90's or low 100's.
 
Reference?
What is this, a scientific experiment?
Didn't you see Fed get disposed by Andreas Seppi? The guy with an abbreviated waiter's tray serve?
Is this even a tennis forum?
 
Isn't the angle between racquet and forearm very important for high level ISR serve? If you don't have any angle there, can you get any extra RHS out of ISR/pronation?
 
Nice vid, but that is not Seppi's motion during the '15 Aussie, when he beat Federer.
The announcers were saying Seppi had a weak serve, and saying it constantly.
His motion was nothing like that particular video. It was shorter and the racket face was more open going up to the ball.
 
torpantennis said:
Isn't the angle between racquet and forearm very important for high level ISR serve? If you don't have any angle there, can you get any extra RHS out of ISR/pronation?
Click to expand...

I agree.

The forearm-racket angle goes from about 90° to maybe 20° at impact, Beta at impact, as the result of ISR. The forearm-racket angle changes from about 90° to 20° in maybe 25 milliseconds. It shows well from the behind server view looking along the trajectory. 25 milliseconds is too fast to observe in 30 fps videos that capture one frame every 33 milliseconds. The racket is face-on for a longer time so you will capture it with 33 fps video probably first attempt. Also, small motion blur prevents misinterpretations but you can even see that the racket is face-on with some blurry videos at 30 fps.
 
Last edited:
Seppi has been going for more on his first serve this year. For 6'3" his serve could be better. I'm a big fan of his.

When I think of Waiter's Tray I also think robotic arm and always a forehand grip. I know one very strong doubles player that serves this way.

LeeD said:
Nice vid, but that is not Seppi's motion during the '15 Aussie, when he beat Federer.
The announcers were saying Seppi had a weak serve, and saying it constantly.
His motion was nothing like that particular video. It was shorter and the racket face was more open going up to the ball.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
He doesn't serve with a full beginner's waiter's tray.
But, he does open up the face of the racket a bit earlier than other ATP players, but he get's consistency and decent power using his technique.
Kinda like McEnroe's volleys and groundies. Not conventional, but somewhat effective.
 
Everybody reading this forum is welcome to take a smartphone or video camera, view along the trajectory of their serve and see if they are using the Waiter's Tray technique.
 
I don't think there are a lot of people on this form who use the waiter tray to be honest...Not all of us have great serves, but most of us pronate. Where are you getting that 50% use the waiter tray position? Do you keep stats on the videos posted? That seems very, very high. That would imply that most tennis players on this forum are not using the right grip and are not pronating at all.
 
Ballinbob said:
I don't think there are a lot of people on this form who use the waiter tray to be honest...Not all of us have great serves, but most of us pronate. Where are you getting that 50% use the waiter tray position? Do you keep stats on the videos posted? That seems very, very high. That would imply that most tennis players on this forum are not using the right grip and are not pronating at all.
Click to expand...

You can use conti grip and pronate and still have a waiter's tray...unfortunately.
 
Ballinbob said:
I don't think there are a lot of people on this form who use the waiter tray to be honest...Not all of us have great serves, but most of us pronate. Where are you getting that 50% use the waiter tray position? Do you keep stats on the videos posted? That seems very, very high. That would imply that most tennis players on this forum are not using the right grip and are not pronating at all.
Click to expand...

I formed an impression and started looking into it. I noticed that often I would analyze 2 Waiter's Tray serves in a row. I looked back over the poster's serve pictures that I've posted and saw that many were Waiter's Tray. There were other posters before I started posting pictures. My estimate is offered take it or leave it.
Search: camera behind Chas
Search: Waiter's Tray Chas

I have also taken many videos of servers at my 4.0 level. Some had ISR serves, maybe 20%, some had Waiter's Tray, I don't recall the percentage, others had a zoo of other techniques that I did not try to classify.

The intent of the OP was to get input from others, especially those with coaching or instruction experience as well as posters looking at their own serves.

This is a first attempt to get some idea of what is out there.

The issue is - Are half the tennis players serving with a Waiter's Tray technique? Obviously, as the level increases the percentages would decrease.
 
Last edited:
bigservesofthands said:
Seppi's serve is very similar to my modified waiter's tray. His ISR happens during contact and follow through

seppi.tiff
Click to expand...

FYI- bigservesofthands has what appears to be a very heavy paced Waiter's Tray Serve. One of a kind here so far. Super Charged Waiter's Tray... See his thread
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=521862

Do you have a Seppi video?

On his point, ignoring everything after impact - I believe, but can't be sure because of the quality of posters videos, that some may do ISR late or even some may be pronating the forearm. Unfortunately, the videos are often of poor quality, often 30 fps. I look for edge-on then face-on, if I see edge-on, it is not a Waiter's Tray but that does not mean it is a high level ISR technique. I look also for the forearm-racket angle and may not see it in several 30 fps serves. I believe if no forearm-racket angle is seen, it's defective ISR technique or forearm pronation. ? Of course, high speed video shows everything frame-by-frame........

The above problem could result from the very bad advice to 'approach the ball edge-on and at the last second rotate the racket to face on to impact the ball.' Then ISR can't work effectively, and pronation is even weaker.
 
Last edited:
Chas Tennis said:
Do you have a Seppi video?

The above problem could result from the very bad advice to 'approach the ball edge-on and at the last second rotate the racket to face on to impact the ball.' Then ISR can't work effectively, and pronation is even weaker.
Click to expand...

Chas, I used the video ballinbob posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FA93PGQVMM

From personal experience I am nearing the conclusion that 'approach the ball edge-on and at the last second rotate the racket to face on to impact the ball.' is not sound advice.
 
Both Seppi and Big Soft Hands have big serves because they are 6'3" serve bots.
But if they were 5'10" in height, they'd need some adjustment of technique to approach even 110.
 
bigservesofthands said:
..... I used the video ballinbob posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FA93PGQVMM

From personal experience I am nearing the conclusion that 'approach the ball edge-on and at the last second rotate the racket to face on to impact the ball.' is not sound advice.
Click to expand...

I can't tell what he is doing from that video. Is his upper arm rotating?

As for your WT, there are probably no existing rules or servers to copy.

FYI see my post in ....? thread.
 
I know 5" shouldn't make much difference, as it's FIVE inches.
But, leverage shows a huge percentage gain, having longer arms.
Height allows a bigger court to hit into, so you can swing harder, be less precise, yet still hit the serve IN, than a guy 5" shorter.
Reach, vertical like, is much more than the 5" height difference would infer.
I'm 5'10", reach up flat footed to 7'4".
My contractor bud, at 6'1", reaches 8'4".
His contractor bud, at 6'3", reaches almost 8'6", probably more, because he didn't take the reach test seriously.
 
LeeD said:
I know 5" shouldn't make much difference, as it's FIVE inches.
But, leverage shows a huge percentage gain, having longer arms.
Height allows a bigger court to hit into, so you can swing harder, be less precise, yet still hit the serve IN, than a guy 5" shorter.
Reach, vertical like, is much more than the 5" height difference would infer.
I'm 5'10", reach up flat footed to 7'4".
My contractor bud, at 6'1", reaches 8'4".
His contractor bud, at 6'3", reaches almost 8'6", probably more, because he didn't take the reach test seriously.
Click to expand...

I was just joshing. You are correct. Yes my wing span is pretty big and I can reach much higher than the 5" difference in height when compared to other 5'10" people I know. I reach 8'6". But low center of gravity and a compact build is much more of an advantage once you are out of the serve/ROS portion of point play. So I have to make the best of point zone where I am at an advantage.
 
Chas Tennis said:
I can't tell what he is doing from that video. Is his upper arm rotating?

As for your WT, there are probably no existing rules or servers to copy.

FYI see my post in ....? thread.
Click to expand...

Chas, Yes his upper arm as well as shoulders rotate. More at and after contact similar to the more recent serve I posted where I don't use wrist flexion and use ISR on contact instead. Here are two posts with the relevant frames since I am allowed to post only three images per post.

http://www.googledrive.com/host/0B9JHw4dvgi3wQ1BINEFnNVQ0WkE/Seppi.tiff
http://www.googledrive.com/host/0B9JHw4dvgi3wQ1BINEFnNVQ0WkE/seppi1.tiff
http://www.googledrive.com/host/0B9JHw4dvgi3wQ1BINEFnNVQ0WkE/seppi2.tiff

Seppi_zps379e97a8.jpg

seppi1_zps9a88b627.jpg

seppi2_zps34806f7b.jpg
 
Last edited:
Forearm rotation is obvious (wrist band and actual forearm muscles). Shoulder rotation can be inferred from the change in shape of creases on his T-shirt close to the shoulder.
 
....QUOTE=bigservesofthands;9082319]
seppi6.tiff
[/QUOTE.....

This is not displaying same problem as on your serve thread.

Could it be this?

You cannot display a picture on TW forums directly from the drive on your computer.

I don't know what "googledrive" is but it looks like a cloud drive. Is the TW forum seeing googledrive the same as a computer drive?

Upload picture to a photo picture site.
 
Lots of people waiter's tray their serve. I can easily see the 50% number being true. The real question is - has anyone on this forum over the age of 20 really fixed a waiter's tray problem?

Seems like if kids didn't get training as junior - and serve with waiter's tray its REALLY tough to fix. I have actually never seen an under 4.0 women serve with anything but a waiter's tray..

Even serve's that look good to the naked eye feature the racquet opening early when viewed at high speed..

The real issue is that people can't seem to learn to use a throwing motion on the serve. It just feels to different and they want to make sure the strings meet the ball - so they open up early.

It doesn't matter what grip you use - or whatever - its easy to do. Racquet drop is the other big problem. its often too early or not at all.

The serve is just a shot that gets taught poorly. Even with bad technique the actual hitting action happens so fast that people don't see what is going wrong, IMHO.
 
Chas Tennis said:
....QUOTE=bigservesofthands;9082319]
seppi6.tiff
[/QUOTE.....

This is not displaying same problem as on your serve thread.

Could it be this?

You cannot display a picture on TW forums directly from the drive on your computer.

I don't know what "googledrive" is but it looks like a cloud drive. Is the TW forum seeing googledrive the same as a computer drive?

Upload picture to a photo picture site.
Click to expand...

I have edited the above images to provide permalinks. These images were set to "anyone on the internet can find and view before". Google seems to have removed permalink capabilities to prevent using google drive hosted images in webpages. The workaround seems to be to use gdurl based permalinks now. Hopefully you can see the images now.
 
Last edited:
bigservesofthands said:
I have edited the above images to provide permalinks. These images were set to "anyone on the internet can find and view before". Google seems to have removed permalink capabilities to prevent using google drive hosted images in webpages. The workaround seems to be to use gdurl based permalinks now. Hopefully you can see the images now.
Click to expand...

No, I can't on TW, there is no link to click or picture shown.

But if I click the link in my email notification I see a picture of Seppi late in his serve.

In my email TW notification I have this - I added the XX to disable the link.
.........................
---End Quote---
I can see the embedded images fine. Followed instructions on google's forums to embed shareable/viewable links. Let me try something else. Can you see this?

XXttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9JHw4dvgi3wMnBFU3N1Mmo4MU0/view?usp=sharing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The link works in my email but not on TW.

I have declined to sign up for a Google account. Somehow is that related? Your images are the only ones that I don't see on TW. ?
 
Last edited:
Chas Tennis said:
No, I can't on TW, there is no link to click or picture shown.

But if I click the link in my email notification I see a picture of Seppi late in his serve.

In my email TW notification I have this - I added the XX to disable the link.
.........................
---End Quote---
I can see the embedded images fine. Followed instructions on google's forums to embed shareable/viewable links. Let me try something else. Can you see this?

XXttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9JHw4dvgi3wMnBFU3N1Mmo4MU0/view?usp=sharing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The link works in my email but not on TW.

I have declined to sign up for a Google account. Somehow is that related? Your images are the only ones that I don't see on TW. ?
Click to expand...

Please refresh and try again. Some browsers don't seem to like mixed mode (http embedded with https since it can lead to man in the middle attacks). The default shared links in google drive are https. I reproduced your problem on chrome and firefox and not Safari. I posted straight downloadable links now.

Went with photobucket for embedding images since that seems to be the most popular on this site and works across browsers. It would be nice if I could figure out how to get google drive to work with browsers other than Safari when posting to PHP based websites like TTW. Google drive does not have ads and a much larger quota and you can host things like videos.
 
Last edited:
GuyClinch said:
.

Even serve's that look good to the naked eye feature the racquet opening early when viewed at high speed..

The real issue is that people can't seem to learn to use a throwing motion on the serve. It just feels to different and they want to make sure the strings meet the ball - so they open up early.

It doesn't matter what grip you use - or whatever - its easy to do. Racquet drop is the other big problem. its often too early or not at all.
Click to expand...

That pretty much sums it up for me.... I can mime an edge-on motion till the cows come home but once the ball is there I still open up early. It's getting better but it's a struggle.
 
GuyClinch said:
The real issue is that people can't seem to learn to use a throwing motion on the serve. It just feels to different and they want to make sure the strings meet the ball - so they open up early.

It doesn't matter what grip you use - or whatever - its easy to do.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reminder, my serve got back on a good track tonight.
 
Most Pros hit Flat 1st and Twist 2nds.. Very easy to to accomplish ISR and pronation on Flat 1st. Every rec player can be taught this in a week.

On Twist serves, it is relatively easy to approach edge on and avoid the waiters tray.

The hardest serve to avoid the Waiter's tray is the topspin serve. Even the pro's have a bit of Waiter's tray on their topspin serves. And most rec players hit topspin serves.
 
Last edited:
I believe that the terms 'Waiter's Tray', 'Waitress Position', 'Pancake Serve', and others have been used to describe the same serving technique. What is 'Frying Pan'?

Dennis Van der Meer estimates that over 50% of club level players serve from a "Waitress Position."
http://www.tennisserver.com/wildcards/wildcards_03_06.html

http://www.active.com/tennis/articles/how-to-avoid-the-no-1-service-error-most-players-make

Thread - Teaching the Pancake Serve
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/teaching-the-pancake-serve.509394/
 
Last edited:
I think at this point you have analyzed my serve twice and determined it's an isr serve and not a waiters tray. The question is WHY I don't have a waiters tray being self taught and all. I am guessing it's got a lot to do with being a pitcher and playing quarter back.

I agree with the 50% number but I think it's higher. Think guy mentions most ladies having waiters tray and I see it in my mixed doubles all the time. Even in the all dudes teams you see a good amount. Heck I think it's enough to bump you up .5 ntpr just fixing the wts...
 
Most guys don't have the time to fix waiters tray... Adults simply don't go out and practice serve 3 or 4 hours a week. That's what you need to get a really good serve and they aren't going to do that..

It's certainly a larger number then 50% I agree. But here is the thing..I never seen anyone go from waiters tray to fixed as an adult. I suppose it does happen..but haven't seen it yet. The guys with a good serves played when they were kids.. Maybe not seriously but they played. The issue is that adults feel way more pressure to perform adequately..with the serve.

I won a mixed doubles match the other day 6-1, 6-2... very easy victory. But my partner was still giving me gruff because of a some double faults. If you want a good serve you have to swing with high RHS and accept a few double faults. That's just not going to happen for most rec players. You have to divorce yourself from the outcome to some extent.

I don't even think WT is the number one problem. Most adults are not swinging the racquet fast on the serve in tight situations. Waiter's tray vs. not waiters tray doesn't apply at very low speeds. If you have to hit a serve really slow - waiters tray is just as easy ...probably easier.. They might waiter tray a first serve hard but the next serve is crap.. That's because of the pressure they want to get it in...
 
Can anyone tell me if I have an ISR or waiters tray serve? I am having a hard time figuring/understanding from the pictures. Here is a sample of some if my serves.


I start serving on the near side at 3:42.
 
This waiters tray serve issue sure is a tricky one and one that I have been fighting for a while now. Very difficult to fix for an adult like myself who started playing
late in life. I would also say that 90% of the women I see playing rec tennis have a WT serve. The main culprit of this IMO is opening up the palm too early.
Also the WT serve does hand in hand with a shallow racquet drop, since the very instant you open up the palm, the racquet cannot drop anymore after that.
The other problem with fixing this, is that many rec players develop a fairly effective serve at the rec level even with all these issues, so there's no real incentive to fix it.
 
dsp9753 said:
I dont have an ISR serve? or I dont have a waiter's tray serve? haha, just wanted clarification.
Click to expand...
You do not have a "waiters tray" serve. Your grip sort of tells you if you do or not, although I've seen some people contort their wrist and flop into a waiters tray anyway.
 
Last edited:
we fixed LakeSnake's in a few weeks.
Waiter's tray is easy to fix.

JackB1 said:
This waiters tray serve issue sure is a tricky one and one that I have been fighting for a while now. Very difficult to fix for an adult like myself who started playing
late in life. I would also say that 90% of the women I see playing rec tennis have a WT serve. The main culprit of this IMO is opening up the palm too early.
Also the WT serve does hand in hand with a shallow racquet drop, since the very instant you open up the palm, the racquet cannot drop anymore after that.
The other problem with fixing this, is that many rec players develop a fairly effective serve at the rec level even with all these issues, so there's no real incentive to fix it.
Click to expand...
 
dsp9753 said:
Can anyone tell me if I have an ISR or waiters tray serve? I am having a hard time figuring/understanding from the pictures. Here is a sample of some if my serves.


I start serving on the near side at 3:42.
Click to expand...

Frame #1 of a serve (3rd?). Edge on = no Waiter's Tray.
232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv348%3C7%3Enu%3D92%3B5%3E359%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D383%3A72%3A573348nu0mrj


Frame #2. Face on and forearm-racket angle looks like a ISR serve but frame rate is slow, probably 30 fps. Notice that his hand has moved to the right (reference to fence post). I think a WT will have less hand motion to the right.
232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv3%3C968%3Enu%3D92%3B5%3E359%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D383%3A733946348nu0mrj


This shows no sign of a Waiter's Tray. Probably an ISR serve but the frame rate is too slow.

The foot to the side looks like Somersault motion is not right. Less forward bend at waist than high level servers. Also, the forward motion looks suspect. Compare. On one serve your feet landed behind the baseline.Video from side to examine compare forward trunk tilt. On one serve you had more flex in your elbow right before impact. On one serve your head did not move and your were looking at the ball. Compare that to high level servers.

You probably have the ISR to be confirmed with high speed video and best - by directly showing your upper arm rotating with markers.

Everybody can screen for Waiter's Tray with a 30 fps video camera and small motion blur. Just look at your video.....
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php
 
Last edited:
I will try and post a current video of my serve. I'm sure I still have lots of WT in my serve, but it has gotten a little better since I switched to an abbreviated motion.
 
Cool thanks for the break down! I really appreciate it. I think I do have an ISR serve but I honestly have never looked at or really worked on my serve much.

My forward motion is suspect but its actually because of bad ball tosses. I have noticed if I toss the ball well and infront of me, I usually land in the courts, serve feels good, and I can tell there is a lot of pace. When I get lazy, I will swing at tosses that are directly above me or even behind me which is why sometimes I dont move forward or even backwards!!

On another note, I did some serves with a radar and I was able to get my fastest serve in at 100mph. Felt like a pretty big accomplishment.
 
heninfan99 said:
we fixed LakeSnake's in a few weeks.
Waiter's tray is easy to fix.
Click to expand...

I think the Waiter's thing is gone, but I still double fault more than people who patty-cake 2nd serves and have not truthfully gotten a flat serve down yet. And I have put in quite a few sessions, 25+; and had barely played any sets before transitioning. It is no joke to change.

BTW, you can definitely have a waiter's tray serve with a continental grip; I did!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

C
High Level Serve vs Waiter's Tray: Hand Path Difference
Replies
21
Views
5K
Chas Tennis
C
C
'Waiter's tray' - Definition? What is the arm position?
Replies
49
Views
17K
Chas Tennis
C
C
Side-by-Side Forum Poster with Waiter's Tray VS High Level ATP Serve with ISR
Replies
4
Views
245
Chas Tennis
C
Curious
Fixing the waiter's tray serve
2
Replies
77
Views
9K
Bender
Bender
C
Kinovea Analysis of an Unknown Serving Technique
Replies
3
Views
204
Kevo
K
Back
Top