Want to make sure I got a call right

jonnythan

Professional
I was serving at deuce in the second set of a USTA match over the weekend. I hit a first serve that looked good to me and my partner, but the receiver's partner called it out.

I was pretty sure it was good, and the receiver's partner had made a couple of poor calls (including calling out an obviously-in ace) so I asked the receiver's partner if she was sure. She said yes. I then asked the receiver if he thought it was out. He sorta threw up his hands and said "I don't know." I stepped back to the line and before I started to prepare for a second serve, he then said "I think it may have been in."

I took the point and proceeded to set up to serve at ad-in.

The other team protested. The receiver's partner said that she was sure it was out. I explained that the receiver said (and I'm quoting) "I think it may have been in" and that, by rule, means that the point goes to the serving team.

Was this the correct call?
 
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woodrow1029

Guest
I was serving at deuce in the second set of a USTA match over the weekend. I hit a first serve that looked good to my partner and I, but the receiver's partner called it out.

I was pretty sure it was good, and the receiver's partner had made a couple of poor calls (including calling out an obviously-in ace) so I asked the receiver's partner if she was sure. She said yes. I then asked the receiver if he thought it was out. He sorta threw up his hands and said "I don't know." I stepped back to the line and before I started to prepare for a second serve, he then said "I think it may have been in."

I took the point and proceeded to set up to serve at ad-in.

The other team protested. The receiver's partner said that she was sure it was out. I explained that the receiver said (and I'm quoting) "I think it may have been in" and that, by rule, means that the point goes to the serving team.

Was this the correct call?


Up until last year, USTA Code 16 specifically allowed a player to question the opponent's call if the call was doubted. Code 16 also provided that if the opponent reaffirmed the call, the call was to be accepted. Finally, if the opponent expressed uncertainty, the call was to be reversed. As an official, my interpretation of that when roving was that you have one chance to ask if the opponent was sure. The last part of the section was that there shall be no further delay or discussion After that, it would leave room for one player to try to intimidate the opponent into changing the call, which is unacceptable, and I would stop the conversation after one question.

Now, in the new Friend at Court for 2011, that wording is out of the Code. However, it is stated that the removal of the Code Section does not disallow a player from questioning the call if it is seriously doubted. Therefore, my feeling is that once you asked the question the first time, and the opponent reaffirmed the call, the discussion should have ended without you asking the other player. If the receiver had volunteered that he thought it was in, without being asked a second time, then yes.

But it's a very gray area, and I don't necessarily think that you were 100% correct or 100% incorrect. But, my feeling, without seeing the situation happen, or knowing the feel of the situation is that once you asked once and the call was reaffirmed, the discussion should have ended.
 

jonnythan

Professional
Thank you for that, very interesting. It seems I should be able to ask both members of the opposing team though, doesn't it?

When the receiver said "I don't know" at first I just shrugged and walked back to the line - in my mind it was over at that point. It was a few seconds later that he offered "I think it may have been in" with no prompting from me.
 
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woodrow1029

Guest
Again, it's a very gray area, and I don't know if you were correct or incorrect. If you were being strict about it, then you could have claimed the point when the receiver said, "I don't know." as that clearly expresses uncertainty or doubt.

My feeling is still that you get one chance to ask, and if the call is reaffirmed by the player that called it out, the discussion should end.

If you asked the one that called it out and she reaffirmed it, and the receiver just volunteered right tehre that he thought it was in, then you would have definitely been correct to take the point.

It's a good question for discussion though, and there will be very good arguments for both ways though.
 

jonnythan

Professional
OK. Thanks.

In the event it happens again, does it make sense to ask the partner of the person who made the call instead of the one who made the call?
 
Receiver's partner, who keeps making BAD CALLS, should shut mouth and go to a thearapeutic eye doctor's office, who practices the Bates method of vision improvement.
 

mhj202

Rookie
I was serving at deuce in the second set of a USTA match over the weekend. I hit a first serve that looked good to my partner and I, but the receiver's partner called it out.

I was pretty sure it was good, and the receiver's partner had made a couple of poor calls (including calling out an obviously-in ace) so I asked the receiver's partner if she was sure. She said yes. I then asked the receiver if he thought it was out. He sorta threw up his hands and said "I don't know." I stepped back to the line and before I started to prepare for a second serve, he then said "I think it may have been in."

I took the point and proceeded to set up to serve at ad-in.

The other team protested. The receiver's partner said that she was sure it was out. I explained that the receiver said (and I'm quoting) "I think it may have been in" and that, by rule, means that the point goes to the serving team.

Was this the correct call?

Great discussion question!

I pretty much agree with your analysis and, in a competitive environment, would've handled it the exact same way.

I also would defer to Woodrow on the process and procedure for asking/challenging a call-- I've read enough on this board to know that Woodrow knows more about the rules and procedure of tennis than I could even imagine.

However, the one place where I disagree with Woodrow somewhat (and I do so reluctantly because disagreeing with Woodrow regarding rules generally means I'm wrong) is where he notes that you may have been able to take the point when the receiver says "I don't know" because it expresses uncertainty. I'm not sure about this because I don't think it expresses uncertainty as a team-- the receiver's partner was certain that it was out and the receiver basically didn't see it or didn't see it well enough to make a call. I don't think that in doubles both players need to make a call and confirm every call-- and not doing so doesn't cause uncertainty in my view. For me, it is uncertain when the two doubles players both saw the ball and make differing calls.
 
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woodrow1029

Guest
Great discussion question!

I pretty much agree with your analysis and, in a competitive environment, would've handled it the exact same way.

I also would defer to Woodrow on the process and procedure for asking/challenging a call-- I've read enough on this board to know that Woodrow knows more about the rules and procedure of tennis than I could even imagine.

However, the one place where I disagree with Woodrow somewhat (and I do so reluctantly because disagreeing with Woodrow regarding rules generally means I'm wrong) is where he notes that you may have been able to take the point when the receiver says "I don't know" because it expresses uncertainty. I'm not sure about this because I don't think it expresses uncertainty as a team-- the receiver's partner was certain that it was out and the receiver basically didn't see it or didn't see it well enough to make a call. I don't think that in doubles both players need to make a call and confirm every call-- and not doing so doesn't cause uncertainty in my view. For me, it is uncertain when the two doubles players both saw the ball and make differing calls.

I'll go with that too. :)
 

mhj202

Rookie
I'll go with that too. :)

Whew... (as I wipe my brow)

In my personal experience, I find that doubles brings up more of these interesting types of rules/process questions than singles-- perhaps because there are more people on the court and therefore more chances for disagreement and more personalities, and also generally speaking the pace of play (during the points) moves a bit faster than in singles.

Just adds to the fun!
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I think it is OK to ask the partner who did not make the call, once, politely.

The reason is that you can often read a partner's face. One player makes an out call, and the partner immediately looks a bit ill. If you say to the partner, "Do you agree with that call?", then can reply "Yes" or "I didn't see it." Then that's it.

I do not think "I don't know" in the OP necessarily means "I have doubt." It can also mean, "I didn't see it" or "I didn't get a good look at it."

Which is what I say when I didn't have a good angle but it looked close, and my partner in good position called it out.
 

gmatheis

Hall of Fame
I was serving at deuce in the second set of a USTA match over the weekend. I hit a first serve that looked good to my partner and I, but the receiver's partner called it out.

I was pretty sure it was good, and the receiver's partner had made a couple of poor calls (including calling out an obviously-in ace) so I asked the receiver's partner if she was sure. She said yes. I then asked the receiver if he thought it was out. He sorta threw up his hands and said "I don't know." I stepped back to the line and before I started to prepare for a second serve, he then said "I think it may have been in."

I took the point and proceeded to set up to serve at ad-in.

The other team protested. The receiver's partner said that she was sure it was out. I explained that the receiver said (and I'm quoting) "I think it may have been in" and that, by rule, means that the point goes to the serving team.

Was this the correct call?

I think you did everything 100% fine. The rule that used to be in stating that you could ask once was probably (as most things in the rules are) more directly written for singles play and adapting that to doubles it seems fair to me to ask each of them once ... not that you have to pick one to ask once and hope you get the one that will admit their mistake.

Anyway when the reciever said "i don't know" I too take it to mean he didnt get a good look at it and move on ... just as you did. The moment he says he thinks it may have been in, the point is yours because now he is disagreeing with his partners call.
 

mhj202

Rookie
Along the lines of this discussion, I played more competively in high school and college (many, many years ago) as a doubles specialist and, to avoid situations just like this, when playing with a new partner often had to make sure that he understood that if I make a call, he cannot show even a glimmer of doubt in that call unless he is 100% sure i was wrong. Otherwise, we would end up in too many situations where the other team would try to claim the point because of doubt.

Usually, it would happen once and never again... if you know what i mean. ; - )
 

jonnythan

Professional
Along the lines of this discussion, I played more competively in high school and college (many, many years ago) as a doubles specialist and, to avoid situations just like this, when playing with a new partner often had to make sure that he understood that if I make a call, he cannot show even a glimmer of doubt in that call unless he is 100% sure i was wrong. Otherwise, we would end up in too many situations where the other team would try to claim the point because of doubt.

Usually, it would happen once and never again... if you know what i mean. ; - )

On my regular men's team, we talk about things like this. We all understand what the rules are and that any doubt expressed from either player means the call goes the other way. So we don't contradict an out call unless we're sure it was out.

It's tough though. Some of the guys will doubt their own call right after they make it, even though the ball was obviously out. They're honest to a fault!

The people I was playing against this time were obviously not fully familiar with the rules and I guess didn't realize that saying "I think it might have been in" means the call has to go the other way.
 

storypeddler

Semi-Pro
Hmmm...I have always wondered about this, though, for one reason...

In a doubles match, there are frequently occasions where one member of a team clearly won't have a positive answer to the question (in or out?)because that player wasn't in the best position to see the ball land or was too far away. Even so, it is still VERY possible for his partner, standing in a better position, to CLEARLY see the ball land and KNOW it is out, making that call. The rule regarding uncertainty was never written to allow for the certain call of one doubles player to be negated by the "I'm not sure" of his partner. No rule says both members of a doubles team have to clearly see the ball out to let the call stand. If that was the case, there would be no reason to have your partner watch the line while you are concentrating on returning the serve. I'm not advocating cheating, and if a team isn't sure, the benefit of the doubt should go to the opponents---but if my partner is in position to make the call, and he clearly sees it out, I will never voice my opinion UNLESS I thought he was wrong. If I can't clearly see the ball land, but my partner can and makes a definitive call in a timely fashion and is sure, I stand behind his call.
 
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