Was 2008 Djokovic prime on HC/at USO?

[mike danny]

I see him as prime in 2008-2010 and in some tournaments like Canada 2007, then he peaked in 2011.

Nah, 2007 better than 2010 definitely. And better than 2009 as well outside of clay.

 

[Biotic]

Irrespective of stats, Djokovic in 2007-2008 won more than Federer in 2014-2015.

Neither is prime, but we all know which one was better.

Well, Fed obviously better on grass, Djokovic better on clay. 2008 AO is what makes Djokovic better on HC. Without that one, not so much.

 

[mike danny]

Well, Fed obviously better on grass, Djokovic better on clay. 2008 AO is what makes Djokovic better on HC. Without that one, not so much.

Well, that's a pretty big one since Federer won 0 majors in 2014-2015.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

2007 on he is in his physical prime, as Nadal was in his from 2005 on. He had a mental crisis after Madrid 09 and then changed racquets at the beginning of 2010 and had the Todd Martin fiasco. If not for these self inflicted wounds he would clearly have been seen as prime from 2007-16 when he went down with injury. In the same way as Federer’s physical prime was 03-12 and Nadal’s 05-13

 

[mike danny]

2007 on he is in his physical prime, as Nadal was in his from 2005 on. He had a mental crisis after Madrid 09 and then changed racquets at the beginning of 2010 and had the Todd Martin fiasco. If not for these self inflicted wounds he would clearly have been seen as prime from 2007-16 when he went down with injury. In the same way as Federer’s physical prime was 03-12 and Nadal’s 05-13

Djokovic recovered some of his form after the 2009 grass court season though. The rest of his 2009 was decent enough.

 

[Biotic]

2007 on he is in his physical prime, as Nadal was in his from 2005 on. He had a mental crisis after Madrid 09 and then changed racquets at the beginning of 2010 and had the Todd Martin fiasco. If not for these self inflicted wounds he would clearly have been seen as prime from 2007-16 when he went down with injury. In the same way as Federer’s physical prime was 03-12 and Nadal’s 05-13

2007 - 2010 physical prime? Did you watch his matches back in the day? He was stumbling after every 20+ rally.

 

[ForehandRF]

Nah, 2007 better than 2010 definitely. And better than 2009 as well outside of clay.

At the 2010 USO series Djokovic did well, Canada and especially the USO, where he stole the match from Fed in spectacular fashion.That was prime level, not to mention the end of the year.A player can't go from non prime directly to peak, so he was prime before he peaked in 2011.

 

[mike danny]

At the 2010 USO series Djokovic did well, Canada and especially the USO, where he stole the match from Fed in spectacular fashion.That was prime level, not to mention the end of the year.

Djokovic stole that match mostly on account of Fed sucking, so that wasn't prime level from Novak. Any prime Fed wins that match in 4.

 

[Deleted member 762343]

I’d say he was only in his prime on clay (with 2011 being his peak).

 

[ForehandRF]

Djokovic stole that match mostly on account of Fed sucking, so that wasn't prime level from Novak. Any prime Fed wins that match in 4.

Fed was unimpressive indeed, but the tennis played by Djokovic from down 15-40 was ridiculous.

 

[abmk]

For example, compare 2008 to 2013:

AO - 08 at least no worse, looks better in fact
IW - 08 surely
Miami - ROFLMAO
Canada - lel
Cincy - 13
USO - eh, look similar
Shanghai - 13
Paris - 13
YEC - 13

13 not meaningfully better at all until the fall season, where Djokovic peaked alright. But the two slemz and most mugsters were already past.

USO 2008 over USO 2013 IMO.
played better in the Roddick 08 match than in the Stan 13 match

played better in USO 08 SF than in USO 13 final
middle 2 sets of both about same level. first and 4th sets better in 08 than in 13. granted there was a dip in the 4th set from djoko in USO 08, but he was still fighting, unlike in USO 13 4th set. and fed was just too good in the 1st set with djokovic playing some good tennis.

djoko also struggled level wise vs Youzhny in USO 13. granted the robredo match in 08 was probably a little worse, but not enough to overcome the above 2 IMO.

Cincy 08 > Cincy 13 since he crushed Nadal in Cincy 08

 

[mike danny]

Fed was unimpressive indeed, but the tennis played by Djokovic from down 15-40 was ridiculous.

That was just 1 moment. Fed donated him 2 sets in that match with poor play.

 

[maratha_warrior]

Djokovic entered prime at the age of 20 in Nadal entered prime at the age of 19 .

They both are still in prime at almost age 34 and 35 .

Isn't it cool ?

 

[ForehandRF]

That was just 1 moment. Fed donated him 2 sets in that match with poor play.

Leaving aside that Fed wasn't play well in the 2010 SF, you are underselling pre 2011 Djokovic overall and by doing so, you are indirectly doing a "disservice" to both Federer and Nadal when it comes to their wins in that period, much to the liking of Federer's detractors and to the "since 2011" aficionados.I don't know if you are aware of that.

 

[mike danny]

Leaving aside that Fed wasn't play well in the 2010 SF, you are underselling pre 2011 Djokovic overall and by doing so, you are indirectly doing a "disservice" to both Federer and Nadal when it comes to their wins in that period, much to the liking of Federer's detractors and to the "since 2011" aficionados.I don't know if you are aware of that.

I am not underselling pre 2011 Djokovic, I just disagree with the assertion that 2010 was prime Djokovic just because of a USO SF where Fed played awful for his standards.

 

[abmk]

Djokovic entered prime at the age of 20 in Nadal entered prime at the age of 19 .

They both are still in prime at almost age 34 and 35 .

Isn't it cool ?

nadal started his clay prime in 05, grass prime in 06 and HC prime in 08. he isn't at his prime now in general.
djokovic's 08 was prime-ish (07 being a pretty good year). but he took a break in b/w with 09/10.

djokovic isn't at his prime now. Hasn't been prime-ish since after AO 19.

 

[Biotic]

Leaving aside that Fed wasn't play well in the 2010 SF, you are underselling pre 2011 Djokovic overall and by doing so, you are indirectly doing a "disservice" to both Federer and Nadal when it comes to their wins in that period, much to the liking of Federer's detractors and to the "since 2011" aficionados.I don't know if you are aware of that.

Man, if 2010 Djokovic is prime, that makes 2007-2008 peakiest of peak Djokovic.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

No, come on, struggling against fricking Roddick and Robredo!? He was far, far away from his prime tennis.

He lost to GOATredo in 2014.

 

[ForehandRF]

Man, if 2010 Djokovic is prime, that makes 2007-2008 peakiest of peak Djokovic.

Considering Djokovic prime in 2010 is much more realistic that considering Federer peak in 2015, like others do, don't you think ? If prime is not a good word, then which word would be correct ?

 

[maratha_warrior]

nadal was in his clay prime in 05, grass prime in 07 and HC prime in 08. he isn't at his prime now.
djokovic's 08 was prime-ish (07 being a pretty good year). but he took a break in b/w with 09/10.

djokovic isn't at his prime now. Hasn't been prime-ish since after AO 19.

2003,04,05,06,07 greater than 2011,12,13,14,15,16 and greater than all tennis eras

 

[abmk]

At the 2010 USO series Djokovic did well, Canada and especially the USO, where he stole the match from Fed in spectacular fashion.That was prime level, not to mention the end of the year.A player can't go from non prime directly to peak, so he was prime before he peaked in 2011.

Djoko lost to Roddick in straight sets at Cincy 10.
Was in trouble vs Troicki in 1st round of USO 10. no better than USO 07-09 in the SF/F. (a little worse than in 08 SF I'd say atleast)

 

[mike danny]

Considering Djokovic prime in 2010 is much more realistic that considering Federer peak in 2015, like others do, don't you think ?

Normally, that should have been a prime year for him considering he was 23, but for some reason he sucked, simple as that. Overall he wasn't prime as his results indicated.

Just like Roger should have been better in 2002 than he was.

 

[Biotic]

Considering Djokovic prime in 2010 is much more realistic that considering Federer peak in 2015, like others do, don't you think ?

No. Neither is realistic. Federer at least played some good tennis, Djokovic seriously sucked.

 

[Hitman]

Man, if 2010 Djokovic is prime, that makes 2007-2008 peakiest of peak Djokovic.

2010 Djokovic was prime from a physical level since we was 22/23, but from actual tennis form level, it was his worst level overall for a season since 2006, before 2017 came along.

 

[abmk]

Djokovic's prime ended in 2011 according to you

maybe in your world. not in mine.
djoko's prime was 11-mid 2016. prime-ish in 08 and mid-18 to early 19.

2003,04,05,06,07 greater than 2011,12,13,14,15,16 and greater than all tennis eras

actually I never said anything of that sort

I have it :

2009 > 2012 > 2011 ~ 2007 ~ 2008 > 2005 >~ 2004 > 2013 > 2006~2010~2015 > 2016

 

[maratha_warrior]

maybe in your world. not in mine.
djoko's prime was 11-mid 2016. prime-ish in 08 and mid-18 to early 19.



actually I never said anything of that sort

I have it :

2009 > 2012 > 2011 ~ 2007 ~ 2008 > 2005 >~ 2004 > 2013 > 2006~2010~2015 > 2016

Don't be so humble please .thats unfair .

2003 ,04,05,06,07 >>> every other tennis era..

 

[abmk]

Don't be so humble please .thats unfair .

2003 ,04,05,06,07 >>> every other tennis era..

Just being real. I don't do fake humble like Humbalito.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

USO 2008 over USO 2013 IMO.
played better in the Roddick 08 match than in the Stan 13 match

played better in USO 08 SF than in USO 13 final
middle 2 sets of both about same level. first and 4th sets better in 08 than in 13. granted there was a dip in the 4th set from djoko in USO 08, but he was still fighting, unlike in USO 13 4th set. and fed was just too good in the 1st set with djokovic playing some good tennis.

djoko also struggled level wise vs Youzhny in USO 13. granted the robredo match in 08 was probably a little worse, but not enough to overcome the above 2 IMO.

Cincy 08 > Cincy 13 since he crushed Nadal in Cincy 08

Tennis is more than just comparing numbers...
Wawrinka's ballstriking obviously bothers Djokovic even more than Roddick's so can't really tell just by comparing five sets to four or error figures. Of course he looked better against Roddick, but whether he really was, accounting for matchup/conditions, I don't know.

Different games regarding the latter comparison too. The first set of 08 SF was highly serve+quick attack centric, the kind we enjoy most and the kind that makes players look better perhaps more than they are. Federer was great, no question, and Djokovic also looked better for having fewer opportunities to make errors, both on Federer's serve since Fed controlled points, and on his own since he served well - few longer rallies in this set. The 2013 court was perhaps slower, Nadal obviously didn't serve so well like Federer and Djokovic probably served a bit worse himself, so there were a lot more rallies and Nadal often outlasted Djokovic to get UEs. Djokovic certainly looked worse by the numbers and visual slow court play, but I'm not sure how much he actually was. What I'm sure of is that Federer was obviously better than Nadal so no question 2008 USO SF/F Federer beats 2013 USO Djokodal in 4 sets on average.

I mixed Canada and Cincinnati 13, shoulda said Canada 13 > 08 on account of pushing peak Nadal to the brink vs straight-setted by Murray who was himself straight-setted by Nadal, but Cincinnati 08 > 13 since beating an ok Nadal > losing to peak Isner with errors.

 

[metsman]

Was his level during 08 at some tournaments equal or better to many places in 12-14? Yes, but being prime is also about discipline and focus, and 08 wasn't there yet.

 

[mike danny]

Tennis is more than just comparing numbers...
Wawrinka's ballstriking obviously bothers Djokovic even more than Roddick's so can't really tell just by comparing five sets to four or error figures. Of course he looked better against Roddick, but whether he really was, accounting for matchup/conditions, I don't know.

Different games regarding the latter comparison too. The first set of 08 SF was highly serve+quick attack centric, the kind we enjoy most and the kind that makes players look better perhaps more than they are. Federer was great, no question, and Djokovic also looked better for having fewer opportunities to make errors, both on Federer's serve since Fed controlled points, and on his own since he served well - few longer rallies in this set. The 2013 court was perhaps slower, Nadal obviously didn't serve so well like Federer and Djokovic probably served a bit worse himself, so there were a lot more rallies and Nadal often outlasted Djokovic to get UEs. Djokovic certainly looked worse by the numbers and visual slow court play, but I'm not sure how much he actually was. What I'm sure of is that Federer was obviously better than Nadal so no question 2008 USO SF/F Federer beats 2013 USO Djokodal in 4 sets on average.

I mixed Canada and Cincinnati 13, shoulda said Canada 13 > 08 on account of pushing peak Nadal to the brink vs straight-setted by Murray who was himself straight-setted by Nadal, but Cincinnati 08 > 13 since beating an ok Nadal > losing to peak Isner with errors.

If Roddick doesn't choke when serving for the 4th, that USO match looks completely different.

 

[metsman]

If Roddick doesn't choke when serving for the 4th, that USO match looks completely different.

Djokovic was much fitter than Roddick there who had struggled with injuries all summer. Unless Djokovic implodes I doubt he loses a 5th set.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

If Roddick doesn't choke when serving for the 4th, that USO match looks completely different.

If Djokovic's opponents never choked, he wouldn't have double digit majors ROFLMAO.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Djokovic was much fitter than Roddick there who had struggled with injuries all summer. Unless Djokovic implodes I doubt he loses a 5th set.

prime Roddick >= prime Djokovic at the USO when equalised for fitness?

 

[mike danny]

If Djokovic's opponents never choked, he wouldn't have double digit majors ROFLMAO.

In this case it's different, since Roddick fired 2 DFs.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

prime Roddick >= prime Djokovic at the USO when equalised for fitness?

Federer > Agassi > Roddick > Blake => Djokovic

 

[King No1e]

He had some peak level performances, but overall wasn't a prime year IMO. Consistency wasn't quite there yet.

 

[metsman]

prime Roddick >= prime Djokovic at the USO when equalised for fitness?

Murray, Nishikori, etc. etc.

 

[Roddickulous1]

Djokovic was much fitter than Roddick there who had struggled with injuries all summer. Unless Djokovic implodes I doubt he loses a 5th set.

I don't see Roddick losing a potential 5th due to fitness. That wasn't a particularly grueling match at all.

If Roddick would've lost the 5th, it would've been due to going away from the brand of tennis that got him back in the match or choking / poor play on big points. The latter is why he lost the 4th set in the first place.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Murray, Nishikori, etc. etc.

is there any USO edition Djokovic that isn't in danger of losing to peak Roddick?

 

[Sport]

Prime level on hard. He won a Slam on hard, ergo he was at his prime on hard. People sometimes argue Nadal was at his prime on hard in 2008. It would be a double standard to say that Nadal with 0 Slams on hard was at his prime on hard in 2008 and Djokovic with 1 Slam on hard was non-prime on hard in 2008.

 

[Sport]

Nah, 2007 better than 2010 definitely. And better than 2009 as well outside of clay.

Not than late 2010. 2007 Djokovic was talented but lacked experience. Federer annihilated Djokovic both at the AO 2007 and the USO 2007. In late 2010 Djokovic was a superior tennis player that defeated Federer at the USO 2010 with the same score than in the USO 2011.

 

[abmk]

Tennis is more than just comparing numbers...
Wawrinka's ballstriking obviously bothers Djokovic even more than Roddick's so can't really tell just by comparing five sets to four or error figures. Of course he looked better against Roddick, but whether he really was, accounting for matchup/conditions, I don't know.

it is. But you missed that Djokovic's returned Roddick's serve really well in that USO 08 QF. Kind of important here in this comparision no? Gotta go with USO 08 QF Djokovic here.

Different games regarding the latter comparison too. The first set of 08 SF was highly serve+quick attack centric, the kind we enjoy most and the kind that makes players look better perhaps more than they are. Federer was great, no question, and Djokovic also looked better for having fewer opportunities to make errors, both on Federer's serve since Fed controlled points, and on his own since he served well - few longer rallies in this set. The 2013 court was perhaps slower, Nadal obviously didn't serve so well like Federer and Djokovic probably served a bit worse himself, so there were a lot more rallies and Nadal often outlasted Djokovic to get UEs. Djokovic certainly looked worse by the numbers and visual slow court play, but I'm not sure how much he actually was. What I'm sure of is that Federer was obviously better than Nadal so no question 2008 USO SF/F Federer beats 2013 USO Djokodal in 4 sets on average.

Actually the problem was Djokovic committed a lot of UEs in shorter points in that USO 13 final (particularly in sets 1 and 4). I'm pretty sure @NatF has pointed out this multiple times before. even I have pointed this out once or twice (not necessarily to you, but I thought you might have seen either me or NatF point it out)
He tried to play like his 07-08 self in the USO 13 final, but couldn't sustain it.

and yes, Djokovic did serve signficantly better in USO 08 semi than in USO 13 final, which again is a point towards me saying Djoko of USO 08 semi > Djoko of USO 13 final

16/102 serves unreturned = 15.69%
2 DFs

2013 US Open F: Novak Djokovic vs Rafael Nadal Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

USO 08 semi:
37/124 serves unreturned = 29.84%
5 DFs

2008 US Open SF: Roger Federer vs Novak Djokovic Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

even with other factors mixed in, that's a significant gap

I mixed Canada and Cincinnati 13, shoulda said Canada 13 > 08 on account of pushing peak Nadal to the brink vs straight-setted by Murray who was himself straight-setted by Nadal, but Cincinnati 08 > 13 since beating an ok Nadal > losing to peak Isner with errors.

got it. agree.

 

[abmk]

Not than late 2010. 2007 Djokovic was talented but lacked experience. Federer annihilated Djokovic both at the AO 2007 and the USO 2007. In late 2010 Djokovic was a superior tennis player that defeated Federer at the USO 2010 with the same score than in the USO 2011.

Actually fed defeated djoko in a close 3-set match in USO 07, hardly an annhilation.
2011 USO djoko was significantly better than 2010 USO djoko as was 2011 USO fed over 2010 USO fed in the respective semis.
Just because scores were *somewhat* similar doesn't mean similar level.

Djoko of USO 10 was no better than he was in USO 07-09 (I'd say worse than in USO 08)

 

[Roddickulous1]

it is. But you missed that Djokovic's returned Roddick's serve really well in that USO 08 QF. Kind of important here in this comparision no? Gotta go with USO 08 QF Djokovic here.

Djo returned well but its worth noting Roddick wasn't really serving well in the first couple of sets (especially the first) which is part of the reason Djo had an easier time returning. You can look up reports of the match and commentators and they'll point the same thing. You can kinda see it in the ace count too. Rod had 2 aces in the first two sets and 13 aces in the last two. Djo had a very hard time breaking Roddick's serve in the last 2 sets, the one break late in the 4th was gifted with 2 consecutive DFs by Rod.

 

[mike danny]

If Djokovic's opponents never choked, he wouldn't have double digit majors ROFLMAO.

Note, not saying Roddick would win, just that it would be a similar match to USO 2013 SF vs Stan if he served out the 4th successfully.

 

[Beckerserve]

Was 2008 Djokovic prime on HC/at USO?

Just so happens at USO he is some way inferior to his two great rivals so he lost a number of finals to both at their peak. No disgrace though.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Actually the problem was Djokovic committed a lot of UEs in shorter points in that USO 13 final (particularly in sets 1 and 4). I'm pretty sure @NatF has pointed out this multiple times before. even I have pointed this out once or twice (not necessarily to you, but I thought you might have seen either me or NatF point it out)
He tried to play like his 07-08 self in the USO 13 final, but couldn't sustain it.

and yes, Djokovic did serve signficantly better in USO 08 semi than in USO 13 final, which again is a point towards me saying Djoko of USO 08 semi > Djoko of USO 13 final

16/102 serves unreturned = 15.69%
2 DFs

2013 US Open F: Novak Djokovic vs Rafael Nadal Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

USO 08 semi:
37/124 serves unreturned = 29.84%
5 DFs

2008 US Open SF: Roger Federer vs Novak Djokovic Detailed Stats | Tennis Abstract

even with other factors mixed in, that's a significant gap

I specified the first set eh. Just watched the first sets of both matches again, I mean it's pretty much two different kinds of tennis... Fed's first set was one of the best you'd ever see him play, he was serving excellently and forcing the issue with almost every shot, little scope for Djokovic to do wrong (but still he notched like 6-7 UEs). Nadal didn't hit with such power other than a bunch of well-timed FHDTLs but neither was he passively defending to give Djokovic free reign; it was a pretty good mixture of depth, spin and angles - which I note is usually insufficient against a focused Djokovic (really difficult to outlast/junkball that guy consistently when he's locked in, your best bet is definitely trying to hit through him with sustained power), certainly his ballstriking was somewhat off. Can't very well compare with the first set of 08 where Joe's rallying standard wasn't tested much (due to most points starting with the server in control with the good serving going on, however he was ineffective in the few rallies that occurred so can't pick him as better off the ground. Still, 08 serving better gives him the edge anyway. Nadal's return strategy on a slower court meant he'd get more serves back than Federer, while being less pressing with his returns, so this affects the unreturned %, but I can see it directly that Djokovic's serves had less pop in the 2013 match, probably a bit worse placement too.

 

[mike danny]

Outside his AO 08 run he wins couple of more HC majors if not for running into Federer. He was young and inexperienced but his level was still kinda high if you look also at what he was capable of in 08 AO but also his big titles on HC events and deep runs. You can compare it likewise to what Djole did between 15-16 against Fed at the HC majors. If not for Nole, Fed adda multiple more HC majors.

Djokovic 2007-2008 > Federer 2014-2015.

 

[InsideOut900]

At the 2010 USO series Djokovic did well, Canada and especially the USO, where he stole the match from Fed in spectacular fashion.That was prime level, not to mention the end of the year.A player can't go from non prime directly to peak, so he was prime before he peaked in 2011.

Did @Sport hack your account?

 

[Third Serve]

Did @Sport hack your account?

Untestable, therefore unprovable, therefore irrelevant.