He has amazing grass skills, but his last 3 titles just don't move the needle for me. Sampras and Fed are still better.
Hes atleast 0-3 (baby Alcaraz, and two Murray losses)
2019 Fed wasn’t a bad win, but he faced 0 top 20 players before the final while Fed went through Berrettini-Nishikori-Nadal. The draw was so lopsided in his favor, it’s a miracle Federer even got to match point. The less said about the Shapovalov and Norrie opens, the better.
Berrettini was terrible in that match though. Like very very bad
I don’t get this Mummyvic label. The guy makes more slam semifinals than Sinner and Alcaraz since turning 36, and he’s supposed to be washed up?
It’s hyperbole and in good fun.
It wasn’t a bad win, but Djokovic fans would’ve been all over Fed if he had been the one to face a 38 year old in a slam F
Selective reasoning, bulgo! The latter two are 14-16 years younger. And I thought the max cutoff was 6 years, the separation between Federer and Djokovic.
Oh, let me guess what moved the needle for you: Federer's 3 WB wins over Roddick!
If Berrettini and Nishikori were in Djokovic's bracket, they would be held as softies for him. I didn't know these two would represent little snags for Federer. As it was, Berrettini went down in 3 sets 1 2 and 2, and Nishi played out his role in 4 easy sets.
Or was French Open GOAT Nadal just in his way?
Djokovic is 3-3 versus Thiem on clay, and in general Thiem troubled Djokovic on all surfaces. 3 of their last matches were on hard court and Thiem would two of them, both at the ATP Finals which is Djokovic's favorite surface of indoor hard.
His wins against Fed in Wimbledon finals is certainly a stain on Fed's legacy but Fed was a decent bit older than Djokovic, enough to be considered a big gap. That's the same gap as Alcaraz and Zverev who are considered to be two entirely different generations.
Another typical overlooking of basic logic, obviously an older Fed is going to challenge Djokovic in BO3 because BO3 is significantly easier to manage for an older body because it's a short format. Duh.
He did have. He won a few titles with Murray and Ruud as main competition. It's just that at Wimbledon he overachieved even more.
You have selective reasoning. Where are these age gaps complaints when Djokovic is beating FAA, Fritz, Musetti, De Minaur and Tsitsipas? Those guys are also 10+ years younger. Age gaps don’t matter when facing lower quality players. If Djokovic is truly the GOAT, then by definition, everyone is a lower quality player. Unless you admit that Sinner and Alcaraz are as good as Djokovic?
Lmao, Djokovic’s final opponent in 2021 was Federer’s 4R opponent in 2019. 4R and QF are right about where Berrettini and Nishikori belong. And then Federer faces Djokovic and Nadal back to back in the SF-F. That was not an easy draw by any means. Who did Djokovic face before the final? Humbert-Goffin-RBA LMAO. It’s like a 250 draw!
Exactly, those younger mugs also lose to younger players with a smaller age gap like Sincaraz as well so there's no excuse.
If you had the patience you read my post, you would have gotten the fact that Alcaraz 2024 was out of the question (Djokovic was no longer slam winning era with Sincaraz taking over). Even if it did count in my slightly subjective analysis that would bring total opportunities (finals and titles) to 10 apiece. In addition, facing Nadal at RG is basically a near 100% death sentence, but Fed (old), Murray (very good but not godly), Alcaraz (young and fresh) were all human at Wimbledon and so beating them isn't nearly as impressive as beating Nadal at RG.
The problem with your line of thinking is that you're assuming the wider the wage gap the bigger advantage for the more junior player. In 2004 Agassi was 34 and in 2015 Fed was 32 so very similar yes. But in 2004 Fed was 23 years old while in 2015 Djokovic was 26 years old. Fed was going on to win his 6th slam title against Oldgassi while at the time of USO15 it would have been Djokovic's 10th slam. Fed was a lot younger than Agassi so yes he had more energy, but at the same time was still less experienced. Added on the fact that Djokovic at 2015 was at his peak level (many people here regard 2015 to be his highest level alongside 2011) but no one is going to try and argue that 2004 Federer was peak so that captures the reason why he was taken to 5 sets perfectly. Also It's widely regarded that mid to late 20s is the peak age for tennis so facts are facts.
Just for reference, fed beat RBA, Goffin, and Herbert at Halle in 2019.
You're just saying that because Djokovic never won Newport
Fed was 34 in 2015 and Djokovic was 28 in 2015
Most likely he was going to win most those clay slams, which at the time had a far deeper field than grass and still does to this day.
Read my post carefully and with attention, I never said Fed didn't have any experience, I said in 2004 he would be considered a less experienced and inferior player to Djokovic 15-16.
Straw man and also you literally didn't read my post so no need to explain myself here.
Once again you haven't actually answered me, so I will wait for an on topic response.
So I suppose an elderly Djokovic who was pushed to 5 sets at Roland Garros in 2021 by Tsitsipas can prove two things. A, he was weak in 2023, and B, the 90s gen were a lot of mugs that he snacked off of despite being post-prime. Thank you for the comparative material.
Most likely, but it didn't because Nadal was there. But it is well known that Nadal was better clay courter than Djokovic. I don't know what you want me to say lol It only proves that Nadal was a better clay court player, tells nothing about Djokovic on clay vs grass.
It is just excuses lol When he's at his mythical peak if he couldn't overcome Oldgassi in straights then it's wrong to draw conclusions from when Fed was competitive against Nole but lost that if they were the same age Fed would be ahead especially when the age gap was much smaller than Agassi-Fed
Compared to the rest of the tour he is
You gotta read my post man before commenting "yeah he was a bit better on grass"
Difference was that if you actually looked at Djokovic's results at RG, he would have generated more titles and finals than he would have at Wimbledon. Besides the grass field was weaker than the clay field, so it wouldn't really say much that 7 > 3 without context.
At Roland Garros, one man makes reality warp!
Then you will provide that ROGER 1 title in FO doesnt justify his ability as he lost 4 finals to Rafa.
That's unrelated? We're comparing Novak on grass/clay not Roger on clay. All the stats point to clay being Roger's worst surface anyways even if he won all his finals at RG versus Rafa.
Ok I have no idea how this related to my argument so I'll just assume you didn't understand.
All i want to tell you that this type of wordplay is not warranted
But the difference is that Rafa was always going to block him no matter what, no context needed for that, losing to Rafa at RG is a certainty, and the same applies to Djokovic. The argument isn't who's greatest like how Djokobase always likes switching the subject to, it's clay versus grass for Djokovic. What you're saying is almost completely unrelated and cannot be used comparatively in this discussion.
To clear my point for one last time.
Fed was not able to do the same at Wimb because Djokovic played him when he was old.
Did Alcaraz and Sinner benefit from the same thing while playing against Djokovic? Not a big age gap though, only 14 and 16 years.
There's a difference between a more accomplished player and being a better player. Djokovic is obviously more accomplished (7 > 3) which is basic facts I won't deny. But Djokovic is a better player on clay, but did not achieve more because of the Great Wall of Clay known as Nadal blocking him, hence he was a better clay player, but more accomplished on grass. These are basic facts that do not need a lot of thinking to differentiate.
Yes, Alcaraz and Sinner benefitted from the same thing. 6 year gap is still significant even if 14 and 16 year gaps are larger.
To be fair there are only 3 weeks of grass tune ups in order 250/500/250 then Wimbledon.
Novak was good on clay there is no denying it but his grass court results far surpass anything Novak did on clay.
Was waiting for this tbh
