Was Federer better against the field in 2015 than 2017?

The level of a player must be judged at time T, not in absolute terms.
How could one be sure that the 2015 Djokovic would dominate the current Federer?
I think that despite appearances, tennis continues to evolve. In fact, technically, tactically and mentally, Federer is a better player in 2017-18 than he's ever been, and that's quite normal because a player who stagnates could never win major titles at his age.
This is also the main reason that prevented great players of the past from taking long breaks, because the danger was to get left behind.
 
Otacon said:
The level of a player must be judged at time T, not in absolute terms.
How could one be sure that the 2015 Djokovic would dominate the current Federer?
I think that despite appearances, tennis continues to evolve. In fact, technically, tactically and mentally, Federer is a better player in 2017-18 than he's ever been, and that's quite normal because a player who stagnates could never win major titles at his age.
This is also the main reason that prevented great players of the past from taking long breaks, because the danger was to get left behind.
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Technically, tactically and mentally, the best player I ever played was a wily old fox who used conservative grips, slices and beautiful placement. But was he THE toughest player I have ever played? No, because there were those who were young and really strong who could simply hit me off the court, no need for strategy. In the same vein, I am not sure if tactics alone can make up the gap against a physical beast like 2015 Djokovic. I am not saying there's no way the Fed of 2017 would fare better than his 2015 version but there is no evidence that points to this. Yes, he won two slams but he also made two slam finals in 2015 and it was peak Nole who stopped him in tough 4 setters on both occasions.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
Technically, tactically and mentally, the best player I ever played was a wily old fox who used conservative grips, slices and beautiful placement. But was he THE toughest player I have ever played? No, because there were those who were young and really strong who could simply hit me off the court, no need for strategy. In the same vein, I am not sure if tactics alone can make up the gap against a physical beast like 2015 Djokovic. I am not saying there's no way the Fed of 2017 would fare better than his 2015 version but there is no evidence that points to this. Yes, he won two slams but he also made two slam finals in 2015 and it was peak Nole who stopped him in tough 4 setters on both occasions.
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At the end of the day, you can't fully compensate for younger legs, body and even confidence with tactics and improvements in other facets of the game, you can try your best to adapt but it will never be the same. It's especially funny to me when people start talking about how tennis veterans with all their experience on the big stages should handle the occasion better relative to the younger competition when it's patently obvious how much mentally weaker guys like Fed and Nadal got as they aged compared to their early-mid 20s, Nadal's 5th set record went down the toilet (and he's known as the biggest fighter in the game) while Fed started having that deer in headlights look in a slam final (and he's the most prolific slam player to date).

Fed's 2017 mentality in bigger matches is undoubtebly better than in 2015 but I still can't see him not cracking when peak Novak starts taking away that serve (which is the foundation of Fed's game now) and making it a physical contest. I think we often make the mistake of atributing nearly every Fed's big match loss to his mental failings, even for him there are limits to what he can do (especially in the twilight of his career).
 
zagor said:
At the end of the day, you can't fully compensate for younger legs, body and even confidence with tactics and improvements in other facets of the game, you can try your best to adapt but it will never be the same. It's especially funny to me when people start talking about how tennis veterans with all their experience on the big stages should handle the occasion better relative to the younger competition when it's patently obvious how much mentally weaker guys like Fed and Nadal got as they aged compared to their early-mid 20s, Nadal's 5th set record went down the toilet (and he's known as the biggest fighter in the game) while Fed started having that deer in headlights look in a slam final (and he's the most prolific slam player to date).

Fed's 2017 mentality in bigger matches is undoubtebly better than in 2015 but I still can't see him not cracking when peak Novak starts taking away that serve (which is the foundation of Fed's game now) and making it a physical contest. I think we often make the mistake of atributing nearly every Fed's big match loss to his mental failings, even for him there are limits to what he can do (especially in the twilight of his career).
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I think when Fed serves his best there's not much Novak or anyone else can do, but in that 15 Wimby/USO matches he felt that he had to serve perfect and that put too much pressure on him, so while he ended up serving decent, that wasn't good enough. Tightness definitely was a factor, no other way to explain how he butchered that forehand early in the third at Wimby when the momentum was on his side, and then completely faded. Or the general 2015 USO performance.

2014 Wimby on the other hand, he was kind of looser since he was playing with house money after the awful 2013, and you saw how well he served. Just had zero off the baseline and return that day and even then he had a break point at 3-3 in the 5th, and then would have had 15-30 at 4-4 if he hadn't bricked that overhead.

I'd still favor 15 Djokovic though, simply because Djokovic's level is more steady compared to an older Federer, and he has more margin for error which makes all the difference in a best of 5.
 
metsman said:
I think when Fed serves his best there's not much Novak or anyone else can do, but in that 15 Wimby/USO matches he felt that he had to serve perfect and that put too much pressure on him, so while he ended up serving decent, that wasn't good enough. Tightness definitely was a factor, no other way to explain how he butchered that forehand early in the third at Wimby when the momentum was on his side, and then completely faded. Or the general 2015 USO performance.

2014 Wimby on the other hand, he was kind of looser since he was playing with house money after the awful 2013, and you saw how well he served. Just had zero off the baseline and return that day and even then he had a break point at 3-3 in the 5th, and then would have had 15-30 at 4-4 if he hadn't bricked that overhead.

I'd still favor 15 Djokovic though, simply because Djokovic's level is more steady compared to an older Federer, and he has more margin for error which makes all the difference in a best of 5.
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2014 Wimb final was one of the poorest return displays by Fed. Djokovic did serve well, but Federer had no excuse not to break him even once until the 4th set.

I mean, it's not like Djokovic had Roddick's serve, so Fed really should have broken more often. He finally broke serve after over 2 hours only when his back was against the wall.
 
metsman said:
I think when Fed serves his best there's not much Novak or anyone else can do, but in that 15 Wimby/USO matches he felt that he had to serve perfect and that put too much pressure on him, so while he ended up serving decent, that wasn't good enough. Tightness definitely was a factor, no other way to explain how he butchered that forehand early in the third at Wimby when the momentum was on his side, and then completely faded. Or the general 2015 USO performance.

2014 Wimby on the other hand, he was kind of looser since he was playing with house money after the awful 2013, and you saw how well he served. Just had zero off the baseline and return that day and even then he had a break point at 3-3 in the 5th, and then would have had 15-30 at 4-4 if he hadn't bricked that overhead.

I'd still favor 15 Djokovic though, simply because Djokovic's level is more steady compared to an older Federer, and he has more margin for error which makes all the difference in a best of 5.
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A good deal of the pressure of having to serve his best is down to Novak's return game and specifically that aggressive ROS which was one of the key factors to both Fed and Nadal developing a mental block against him in certain periods (people underrate Nadal's serve, few players can consistently return it deep). Furthemore you can't expect Fed to repeat that 2014 serving performance on a regular basis, that was some of the best serving and netplay he's done in years. Or that one against Murray in WImbledon semis, he was serving like an absolute madman in that match, one of those few instances in his career where I felt he reached Pete's level.

Fed was a mental mess in 2015 USO, can't disagree. I think it was a combination of a lot of factors, the delay of the match, losing those Wimbledon finals to Novak, not being in a USO final for 6 years, feeling his time was running out to win #18 etc. However 2015 Wimbledon final was just the case of him getting outplayed in my book. That was Novak's absolute peak on grass and it would require Fed from his best days to take him on. It's not a match he choked away or capitulated mentally. Of course he could have played better, served better, been more aggressive etc. but at the end of the day I firmly believe Novak was just too much for him on that occasion.
 
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zagor said:
A good deal of the pressure of having to serve his best is down to Novak's return game and specifically that aggressive ROS which was one of the key factors both Fed and Nadal developed a mental block against him in certain periods (people underrate Nadal's serve, few players can consistently return it deep). Furthemore you can't expect Fed to repeat that 2014 serving performance on a regular basis, that was some of the best serving and netplay he's done in years. Or that one against Murray in WImbledon semis, he was serving like an absolute madman in that match, one of those few instances in his career where I felt he reached Pete's level.

Fed was a mental mess in 2015 USO, can't disagree. I think it was a combination of a lot of factors, the delay of the match, losing those Wimbledon finals to Novak, not being in a USO final for 6 years, feeling his time was running out to win #18 etc. However 2015 Wimbledon final was just the case of him getting outplayed in my book. That was Novak's absolute peak on grass and it would require Fed from his best days to take him on. It's not a match he choked away or capitulated mentally. Of course he could have played better, served better, been more aggressive etc. but at the end of the day I firmly believe Novak was just too much for him on that occasion.
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Federer needed a 2013 Djokovic to win thise GS finals In 2015. His timing was horrible in the sense that while in 2015 he did improve on his 2014 form, so did Djokovic.
 
zagor said:
A good deal of the pressure of having to serve his best is down to Novak's return game and specifically that aggressive ROS which was one of the key factors to both Fed and Nadal developing a mental block against him in certain periods (people underrate Nadal's serve, few players can consistently return it deep). Furthemore you can't expect Fed to repeat that 2014 serving performance on a regular basis, that was some of the best serving and netplay he's done in years. Or that one against Murray in WImbledon semis, he was serving like an absolute madman in that match, one of those few instances in his career where I felt he reached Pete's level.

Fed was a mental mess in 2015 USO, can't disagree. I think it was a combination of a lot of factors, the delay of the match, losing those Wimbledon finals to Novak, not being in a USO final for 6 years, feeling his time was running out to win #18 etc. However 2015 Wimbledon final was just the case of him getting outplayed in my book. That was Novak's absolute peak on grass and it would require Fed from his best days to take him on. It's not a match he choked away or capitulated mentally. Of course he could have played better, served better, been more aggressive etc. but at the end of the day I firmly believe Novak was just too much for him on that occasion.
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I don't know if he was outplayed. Was up a break in the first, stole the second sure, but he had set points late in the first and second IIRC. Third set, he started out the aggressor, but missed BPs and then had one of the worst forehand misses I've seen at on his own serve. Only after that did the tide start rolling in Djokovic's favor.

I don't think 2017 Fed wins even though it is possible, but 2012 Federer goes to war, and I'd favor 08-09 Federer. You wouldn't need 03-06 Fed to get the job done, the gap between Federer and Djokovic on grass is pretty large imo.
 
Hitman said:
I don't think there is much if any difference between Federer 2015 and 2017. The only difference is that Federer in 2o015 was dealing with an ATG at the peak of his powers. Take that Djokovic out of the equation, Fed walks away with both W and USO double and more than likely AO 2016. Put that peakiest version of Djokovic into 2017, and Federer doesn't win any of those slams IMO.
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I think fed in 17 was better - but not by a big margin (better groundstrokes, didn't have problems with keeping up level when matches went for more than 2.5 hrs or so vs better movement in 15, better net game and a very marginally better serve).

And importantly, he played more freely in 17 -- including vs Nadal, was better mentally. don't see fed 15 being able to do that vs nadal 17.

Also going by surface speeds :

fed did well on grass in 15. same in 17 (Halle and Wimbledon)
did well on medium-fast to fast HCs (cincy, USO, brisbane) in 15, same in 17 (AO, shanghai, basel)
but he did better on slow HC in 17 by a big margin (IW 17, Miami 17 compared to IW 15, AO 15)
he did play clearly better at the YEC in 15 compared to 17 though.

AO 15 djoko vs AO 17 fed would be close on the 17 court. I do think djoko would probably outlast him on the 15 court though
Wim 15 djoko vs wim 17 fed would be close as well. overall I'd favour wim 17 fed by a bit, but final form djokovic would be favored by a bit.
 
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metsman said:
I don't know if he was outplayed. Was up a break in the first, stole the second sure, but he had set points late in the first and second IIRC. Third set, he started out the aggressor, but missed BPs and then had one of the worst forehand misses I've seen at on his own serve. Only after that did the tide start rolling in Djokovic's favor.

I don't think 2017 Fed wins even though it is possible, but 2012 Federer goes to war, and I'd favor 08-09 Federer. You wouldn't need 03-06 Fed to get the job done, the gap between Federer and Djokovic on grass is pretty large imo.
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well, the 3rd and 4th sets are what make it being outplayed.

first 2 sets were about even.
 
metsman said:
I don't know if he was outplayed. Was up a break in the first, stole the second sure, but he had set points late in the first and second IIRC. Third set, he started out the aggressor, but missed BPs and then had one of the worst forehand misses I've seen at on his own serve. Only after that did the tide start rolling in Djokovic's favor.
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Was a better player in the first until the TB, then Djokovic won that super long point and Federer caved in like he'd never do in his prime :(
Second was equal, Djokovic served first so there were no set points, only break points. Federer was the one facing set points until the very end - some steal that was.

After Federer got broken in the 3rd, the tide didn't "start rolling", it rolled instantly and the match completely changed. Federer won just 9 points on return (in 8 games) for the rest of the match and never pushed Djokovic to deuce, much less break point.
 
abmk said:
I think fed in 17 was better - but not by a big margin (better groundstrokes, didn't have problems with keeping up level when matches went for more than 2.5 hrs or so vs better movement in 15, better net game and a very marginally better serve).

And importantly, he played more freely in 17 -- including vs Nadal, was better mentally. don't see fed 15 being able to do that vs nadal 17.

Also going by surface speeds :

fed did well on grass in 15. same in 17 (Halle and Wimbledon)
did well on medium-fast to fast HCs (cincy, USO, brisbane) in 15, same in 17 (AO, shanghai, basel)
but he did better on slow HC in 17 by a big margin (IW 17, Miami 17 compared to IW 15, AO 15)
he did play clearly better at the YEC in 15 compared to 17 though.

AO 15 djoko vs AO 17 fed would be close on the 17 court. I do think djoko would probably outlast him on the 15 court though
Wim 15 djoko vs wim 17 fed would be close as well. overall I'd favour wim 17 fed by a bit, but final form djokovic would be favored by a bit.
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Well Federer in AO 15 lost early to Seppi, so I don't really look at it, his worst performance by far. I prefer to go with the AO 2016 version, who was carrying the form from Halle 2015 through the end of the season and into the AO before he got injured. I am much more interested in the direct comparison of Djokovic 2016 against Federer 2017 in this instance.
 
Hitman said:
Well Federer in AO 15 lost early to Seppi, so I don't really look at it, his worst performance by far. I prefer to go with the AO 2016 version, who was carrying the form from Halle 2015 through the end of the season and into the AO before he got injured. I am much more interested in the direct comparison of Djokovic 2016 against Federer 2017 in this instance.
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I get that. But Djokovic isn't the only factor while evaluating fed 15 vs fed 17.

Just to simplify things (just a very simplified example to illustrate my point, not saying these how I'd take their levels) ......... let say if Fed 17 is a 9.5, fed 15 is 9.25 and djok 15 is a 10. If you take djok 15 vs fed 17, he'll beat him more often than not. same for vs fed 15. doesn't mean fed 17 isn't better than fed 15.

The Nadal factor in 17 is very important as well. Not as tough as djok 15, but bigger factor than anyone else fed faced in 15.

I just wasn't impressed by fed's form on slow HC in 15 (AO & IW). Had to pointed out in a comparision b/w fed 15 and fed 17.
 
abmk said:
I get that. But Djokovic isn't the only factor while evaluating fed 15 vs fed 17.

Just to simplify things (just a very simplified example to illustrate my point, not saying these how I'd take their levels) ......... let say if Fed 17 is a 9.5, fed 15 is 9.25 and djok 15 is a 10. If you take djok 15 vs fed 17, he'll beat him more often than not. same for vs fed 15. doesn't mean fed 17 isn't better than fed 15.

The Nadal factor in 17 is very important as well. Not as tough as djok 15, but bigger factor than anyone else fed faced in 15.

I just wasn't impressed by fed's form on slow HC in 15 (AO & IW). Had to pointed out in a comparision b/w fed 15 and fed 17.
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One of the reasons why I don't speak about Nadal is, I feel Federer would have beaten more often than not in 2015. I think Nadal was lucky to avoid Federer so many times that year, only match being in Basel.

I agree with you on Federer early 2015, he was poor, picked it up post RG. Likewise, Federer was poor in NA summer hard courts in 2017, even before the injury he wasn't looking too stellar in Montreal, Ferrer was looking to beat him.
 
abmk said:
I get that. But Djokovic isn't the only factor while evaluating fed 15 vs fed 17.

Just to simplify things (just a very simplified example to illustrate my point, not saying these how I'd take their levels) ......... let say if Fed 17 is a 9.5, fed 15 is 9.25 and djok 15 is a 10. If you take djok 15 vs fed 17, he'll beat him more often than not. same for vs fed 15. doesn't mean fed 17 isn't better than fed 15.

The Nadal factor in 17 is very important as well. Not as tough as djok 15, but bigger factor than anyone else fed faced in 15.

I just wasn't impressed by fed's form on slow HC in 15 (AO & IW). Had to pointed out in a comparision b/w fed 15 and fed 17.
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I think Fed's 2014 IW form was better than 2015 (with 2017 being better than both), he blitzed throught the field and played a great match agaisnt Novak in the final.
 
abmk said:
I get that. But Djokovic isn't the only factor while evaluating fed 15 vs fed 17.

Just to simplify things (just a very simplified example to illustrate my point, not saying these how I'd take their levels) ......... let say if Fed 17 is a 9.5, fed 15 is 9.25 and djok 15 is a 10. If you take djok 15 vs fed 17, he'll beat him more often than not. same for vs fed 15. doesn't mean fed 17 isn't better than fed 15.

The Nadal factor in 17 is very important as well. Not as tough as djok 15, but bigger factor than anyone else fed faced in 15.

I just wasn't impressed by fed's form on slow HC in 15 (AO & IW). Had to pointed out in a comparision b/w fed 15 and fed 17.
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I believe Federer would have handled Nadal just fine in 2015. IW and Cincy for example would have been Fed wins.
 
Hitman said:
One of the reasons why I don't speak about Nadal is, I feel Federer would have beaten more often than not in 2015. I think Nadal was lucky to avoid Federer so many times that year, only match being in Basel.
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true, but important thing is what actually happened in 17 with Federer dominating Nadal as he did.

I wasn't thinking about Fed 15 vs Nadal 15 that much there. I was thinking more of a potential Fed 15 vs Nadal 17. I don't think he goes 4-0 like he did in 17.

Hitman said:
I agree with you on Federer early 2015, he was poor, picked it up post RG. Likewise, Federer was poor in NA summer hard courts in 2017, even before the injury he wasn't looking too stellar in Montreal, Ferrer was looking to beat him.
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agree, but he hasn't done that well in Montreal historically as well.
If not for the injury, would've surely done better at the USO. He was picking up some pace/confidence with the lopez, kohlscreiber (I was there !) matches, only to falter vs delpo .

Point is he proved himself on all kinds of HC in 17, not so much in 15. He just didn't have the consistent firepower on slower HC to compete vs a player playing at the highest level.
 
abmk said:
true, but important thing is what actually happened in 17 with Federer dominating Nadal as he did.

I wasn't thinking about Fed 15 vs Nadal 15 that much there. I was thinking more of a potential Fed 15 vs Nadal 17. I don't think he goes 4-0 like he did in 17.
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I guess it depends where he plays him. Federer post RG 2015 would beat Nadal of 2017 I think in every event that followed, if he played him before like AO or Miami, he would have lost. IMO.



abmk said:
agree, but he hasn't done that well in Montreal historically as well.
If not for the injury, would've surely done better at the USO. He was picking up some pace/confidence with the lopez, kohlscreiber (I was there !) matches, only to falter vs delpo .

Point is he proved himself on all kinds of HC in 17, not so much in 15. He just didn't have the consistent firepower on slower HC to compete vs a player playing at the highest level.
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I guess he would have done better, I don't argue that. But with how slow that court was, and it looked a lot slower to me in 2017 than 2015, I think the 2015 version would stand a better chance against Nadal on that faster court. Not saying this Federer couldn't also, but conditions favor Fed at USO more in 2015, than 2017.
 
zagor said:
I think Fed's 2014 IW form was better than 2015 (with 2017 being better than both), he blitzed throught the field and played a great match agaisnt Novak in the final.
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Agree that IW 17 > IW 14 > IW 15 for fed.
I'd say IW final perf. was good-very good, but wouldn't call it great. The match itself was great though, all things considered.
 
Hitman said:
One of the reasons why I don't speak about Nadal is, I feel Federer would have beaten more often than not in 2015. I think Nadal was lucky to avoid Federer so many times that year, only match being in Basel.

I agree with you on Federer early 2015, he was poor, picked it up post RG. Likewise, Federer was poor in NA summer hard courts in 2017, even before the injury he wasn't looking too stellar in Montreal, Ferrer was looking to beat him.
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If we look at it as a whole, I don't think his early 2015 was poor. He had a real bad loss against Seppi in AO, but other than that in the three other HC tournaments he participated in (Brisbane, Dubai and IW), he won two titles and reached the final of IW. In Brisbane he beat both Dimitrov and Raonic, in Dubai he pretty much outplayed Novak on the fast HC, I think it was one of his best performances that season. IW, had a great week winning all his matches in straights with one set only going over 4 games. In the final he fought well until the third set where Djokovic ran away with it.

Sure, AO loss degrades his early 2015 but overall I wouldn't call it poor. I don't know what happened at the AO cause he sure as hell was capable of playing great tennis and certainly should be capable of beating Seppi.
 
Hitman said:
I guess it depends where he plays him. Federer post RG 2015 would beat Nadal of 2017 I think in every event that followed, if he played him before like AO or Miami, he would have lost. IMO.





I guess he would have done better, I don't argue that. But with how slow that court was, and it looked a lot slower to me in 2017 than 2015, I think the 2015 version would stand a better chance against Nadal on that faster court. Not saying this Federer couldn't also, but conditions favor Fed at USO more in 2015, than 2017.
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I think Fed would have beaten Nadal at 2015 IW.
 
RF-18 said:
If we look at it as a whole, I don't think his early 2015 was poor. He had a real bad loss against Seppi in AO, but other than that in the three other HC tournaments he participated in (Brisbane, Dubai and IW), he won two titles and reached the final of IW. In Brisbane he beat both Dimitrov and Raonic, in Dubai he pretty much outplayed Novak on the fast HC, I think it was one of his best performances that season. IW, had a great week winning all his matches in straights with one set only going over 4 games. In the final he fought well until the third set where Djokovic ran away with it.

Sure, AO loss degrades his early 2015 but overall I wouldn't call it poor.
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I only compare it to the second half, where he really picked it up, making two slam finals and WTF final. His clay season wasn't anything special and I count that as part of his first half.
 
mike danny said:
I think Fed would have beaten Nadal at 2015 IW.
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Agree. But if they were playing more matches around that period, I think Nadal might have clipped him here and there. Just think post RG, Federer looked great and would beat Nadal of 2017 on every court from there on.
 
Hitman said:
I only compare it to the second half, where he really picked it up, making two slam finals and WTF final. His clay season wasn't anything special and I count that as part of his first half.
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If we include clay then I agree the grade should be poor. His level really made a massive turn post RG, he was showing dubai level performance consistently.

But if we are comparing his early 2015 to 2nd half 2017 then I don't think we should include clay. He didn't play clay in 17, but you already know that.
 
Hitman said:
Agree. But if they were playing more matches around that period, I think Nadal might have clipped him here and there. Just think post RG, Federer looked great and would beat Nadal of 2017 on every court from there on.
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Ahhh, sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about 2017 Nadal.

2015 Fed still beats him at IW and wouldn't go deep enough elsewhere to play him. Ironically.
 
RF-18 said:
If we include clay then I agree the grade should be poor. His level really made a massive turn post RG, he was showing dubai level performance consistently.

But if we are comparing his early 2015 to 2nd half 2017 then I don't think we should include clay. He didn't play clay in 17, but you already know that.
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We can only judge what we saw, Federer was also younger and pre-injury.

My overall view is, he had a better start to 2017 and a better second half in 2015, if we look at it from a distance and not drilling into each event and each match.
 
Hitman said:
I guess it depends where he plays him. Federer post RG 2015 would beat Nadal of 2017 I think in every event that followed,
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LOL, Tio Toni would imprison Rafa before Nadal played 4 matches after RG vs fed.
They've only played 11 times after RG overall compared to a whopping 26 times before it. highest in a season is 2 each in 06, 07,13


Hitman said:
if he played him before like AO or Miami, he would have lost. IMO.
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exactly my point.

Hitman said:
I guess he would have done better, I don't argue that. But with how slow that court was, and it looked a lot slower to me in 2017 than 2015, I think the 2015 version would stand a better chance against Nadal on that faster court. Not saying this Federer couldn't also, but conditions favor Fed at USO more in 2015, than 2017.
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possible, but I think fed just looked too good at IW for me -- it looked like speed of the HC didn't matter that much with his 17 style. Even did well at Miami after 10 frickin' years.

Also, I think 17 style is more unsettling for Rafa than the 15 one unless its Dubai or Cincy or an indoor court.
Someone like a del potro or a stan or a cilic would prefer to go up vs the 17 style fed though, I think.
 
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abmk said:
LOL, Tio Toni would imprison Rafa before Nadal played .
They've only played 11 times after RG overall compared to a whopping 26 times before it. highest in a season is 2 each in 06, 07,13




exactly my point.



possible, but I think fed just looked too good at IW for me -- it looked like speed of the HC didn't matter that much with his 17 style. Even did well at Miami after 10 frickin' years.

Also, I think 17 style is more unsettling for Rafa than the 15 one unless its Dubai or Cincy or an indoor court.
Someone like a del potro or a stan or a cilic would prefer to go up vs the 17 style fed though, I think.
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I think you have a point on the style for sure. Federer 2015 would beat Nadal 2015 purely based on better overall form, despite not having the correct perfected style to do so. Federer 2017 beat Nadal 2017 because he changed his approach to match up and turned the matchup in his favor. Either way, Federer beats him both those years IMO.
 
Hitman said:
We can only judge what we saw, Federer was also younger and pre-injury.

My overall view is, he had a better start to 2017 and a better second half in 2015, if we look at it from a distance and not drilling into each event and each match.
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That I completely agree with. He won the AO and the sunshine double, no question if you compare it to his early 15.

Was just not agreeing that his early 15 was poor on HCs, that is all :)
 
RF-18 said:
If we look at it as a whole, I don't think his early 2015 was poor. He had a real bad loss against Seppi in AO, but other than that in the three other HC tournaments he participated in (Brisbane, Dubai and IW), he won two titles and reached the final of IW. In Brisbane he beat both Dimitrov and Raonic, in Dubai he pretty much outplayed Novak on the fast HC, I think it was one of his best performances that season. IW, had a great week winning all his matches in straights with one set only going over 4 games. In the final he fought well until the third set where Djokovic ran away with it.

Sure, AO loss degrades his early 2015 but overall I wouldn't call it poor. I don't know what happened at the AO cause he sure as hell was capable of playing great tennis and certainly should be capable of beating Seppi.
Click to expand...

he was great at Brisbane - but that was a faster court.
was excellent at dubai as well , but he didn't outplay Novak by much. He went 2/2 on BPs vs Novak in that match and saved all 7, yes 7 BPs on his serve.

IW 15 doesn't compare to IW 17 in terms of firepower and the level he reached in the Nadal and Stan matches.
IW 15 final, he only had one good (was a very good one though) stretch, from down a break in the 2nd set until the starting 2-3 games of the 3rd set.1st set djokovic was perfect and federer seemed completely at sea and under-powered, not much fight there at all. djoko also got the early break in the 2nd. then federer fought back with some magical tennis to take the 2nd set and played well in the initial couple of games in the 3rd set. then djokovic ran away with it (can't say it was unexpected, federer just didn't seem to have consistent firepower to stay with him for long on a slow HC in 15 )
 
RF-18 said:
That I completely agree with. He won the AO and the sunshine double, no question if you compare it to his early 15.

Was just not agreeing that his early 15 was poor, that is all :)
Click to expand...

I am doing relative comparisons here. It is like saying Djokovic's form in 2012 was poor compared to his 2011 form, he was still insanely good, just relative talk here.
 
RF-18 said:
If we look at it as a whole, I don't think his early 2015 was poor. He had a real bad loss against Seppi in AO, but other than that in the three other HC tournaments he participated in (Brisbane, Dubai and IW), he won two titles and reached the final of IW. In Brisbane he beat both Dimitrov and Raonic, in Dubai he pretty much outplayed Novak on the fast HC, I think it was one of his best performances that season. IW, had a great week winning all his matches in straights with one set only going over 4 games. In the final he fought well until the third set where Djokovic ran away with it.

Sure, AO loss degrades his early 2015 but overall I wouldn't call it poor. I don't know what happened at the AO cause he sure as hell was capable of playing great tennis and certainly should be capable of beating Seppi.
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Thing is, for someone like Fed (Mr. Slam consistency) that loss to Seppi overshadows everything else, it's the first time he lost before SF at AO since 2003 when Nalbo beat him (and he continuted with SF or better showings after 2015). He did play an amazing match against Novak in Dubai though, IIRC was very clutch on BPs.
 
abmk said:
he was great at Brisbane - but that was a faster court.
was excellent at dubai as well , but he didn't outplay Novak by much. He went 2/2 on BPs vs Novak in that match and saved all 7, yes 7 BPs on his serve.

IW 15 doesn't compare to IW 17 in terms of firepower and the level he reached in the Nadal and Stan matches.
IW 15 final, he only had one good (was a very good one though) stretch, from down a break in the 2nd set until the starting 2-3 games of the 3rd set.1st set djokovic was perfect and federer seemed completely at sea and under-powered, not much fight there at all. djoko also got the early break in the 2nd. then federer fought back with some magical tennis to take the 2nd set and played well in the initial couple of games in the 3rd set. then djokovic ran away with it (can't say it was unexpected, federer just didn't seem to have consistent firepower to stay with him for long on a slow HC in 15 )
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Novak had two straight SPs in the 2nd set at 5-4 in dubai but other than that I don't remember Federer being in so much danger, he was clutch and determined. He was just winning that day.
 
zagor said:
Thing is, for someone like Fed (Mr. Slam consistency) that loss to Seppi overshadows everything else, it's the first time he lost before SF at AO since 2003 when Nalbo beat him (and he continuted with SF or better showings after 2015). He did play an amazing match against Novak in Dubai though, IIRC was very clutch on BPs.
Click to expand...

Yeah it was a really bad loss and probably what people remember the most from that early season, with the performance against Novak hanging a bit in the background, but still overall he was capable of producing great tennis and he did outside that AO loss.
 
RF-18 said:
Novak had two straight SPs in the 2nd set at 5-4 in dubai but other than that I don't remember Federer being in so much danger, he was clutch and determined. He was just winning that day.
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that's the not the same as pretty much outplaying Novak. It was just ridiculous clutch play from fed.
Like I said, fed faced 7 BPs and saved them all

He was down 15-40 at 1 all in the 1st set, saved 2 BPs.

He was down 15-40 at 3-4 in the 2nd set, saved 2 BPs.
He was down 15-40 again at 4-5 in the 2nd set, saved 2 SPs.
He was also faced and saved a BP at 6-5, 40-AD.

Of course, he also converted both the BP chances he got.

 
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I'm thinking of a top five list for Feds best performances in 15.

1. Wimby vs Murray
2. Cincy vs Novak
3. Dubai vs Novak
4. USO vs Waw
5. YECs in RR against Novak
 
RF-18 said:
I'm thinking of a top five list for Feds best performances in 15.

1. Wimby vs Murray
2. Cincy vs Novak
3. Dubai vs Novak
4. USO vs Waw
5. YECs in RR against Novak
Click to expand...

these are the top 12 ones .

in chronological order :

brisbane SF vs dimi
dubai F vs novak
wim 2R vs Querrey
Wim QF vs simon
wim SF vs murray
cincy R16 vs anderson
cincy SF vs murray
cincy F vs djoko
USO QF vs gasquet
USO SF vs stan
YEC RR vs djoko
YEC SF vs stan

3 djoko matches out of 5 is over-kill. others on the list are better than dubai 15 and YEC 15 RR for instance.
I'd agree with Cincy 15 being 2nd though.
 
17 list , in chronological order :

17 AO 3R vs Berdych
17 AO F vs Nadal*
17 IW 4R vs Nadal
17 IW F vs Stan
17 Miami SF vs Kyrgios
17 Halle F vs Zverev
17 Wim 4R vs Dimi
17 Wim QF vs Raonic
17 Wim F vs Cilic
17 Shanghai SF vs Delpo
17 Shanghai F vs Nadal
17 Basel R32 vs Tiafoe
17 Basel SF vs Goffin

* not the highest level throughout, but eh, who cares, can't leave that epic one out.

A mention for 17 Miami F vs Nadal, 17 AO 4R vs nishi, 17 wim SF vs Berdych.
 
abmk said:
these are the top 12 ones .

in chronological order :

brisbane SF vs dimi
dubai F vs novak
wim 2R vs Querrey
Wim QF vs simon
wim SF vs murray
cincy R16 vs anderson
cincy SF vs murray
cincy F vs djoko
USO QF vs gasquet
USO SF vs stan
YEC RR vs djoko
YEC SF vs stan

3 djoko matches out of 5 is over-kill. others on the list are better than dubai 15 and YEC 15 RR for instance.
I'd agree with Cincy 15 being 2nd though.
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His performance against Murray in Wim SF surely must be his performance of the year. Thing is, Murray didn't even play bad that match. His numbers were shockingly good for a guy who got beaten in straights and also a great grass courter. I can't bypass that.

I thought putting Novak three times was a bit too much but to beat him that year you had to play good.
 
I just realized I probably misunderstood you when you said chronological order. You were going chronologically by tournaments throughout the year, and not ranking #1 #2 etc.
 
RF-18 said:
His performance against Murray in Wim SF surely must be his performance of the year. Thing is, Murray didn't even play bad that match. His numbers were shockingly good for a guy who got beaten in straights and also a great grass courter. I can't bypass that.

I thought putting Novak three times was a bit too much but to beat him that year you had to play good.
Click to expand...

Anderson was dismantled completely in their Cincy match (6-1, 6-1). This was b/w him taking Novak to 5 sets at Wimbledon and him taking out Murray at the USO. Same with Querrey who's had 2 very good runs at Wimby since then (2016,2017). Dismantled him at Wimbledon.

The Stan one at USO was brilliant as well. so was the YEC one.

etc. etc.

The Dubai one vs djoko, like I pointed out above, was hardly flawless and he faced BPs in 4 separate games out of 11 service games on a fast court
The YEC RR one, Djoko didn't play well tbh.

will have to think about which are #3, #4 and #5, but for sure :

a) #1 is Murray SF at Wim and #2 is cincy F vs Novak.

b) I wouldn't put all the 3 wins vs Novak in the top 5.
 
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