Was Graf "slumping" during Seles' supremacy?

If the German "über-GOAT" was in a form rut from February 1990, allowing Seles, Navratilova & Sabatini to "snatch" slams from her mitts, how did she manage to win 4 in a row immediately subsequent to the "Hamburg Incident"?

I propose that Graf wasn't in a form slump... She just got her grommets kicked by a teenage superstar named Monica, and there was nothing she could do (apart from eat popcorn during "grunt gate".
 

kiki

Banned
If the German "über-GOAT" was in a form rut from February 1990, allowing Seles, Navratilova & Sabatini to "snatch" slams from her mitts, how did she manage to win 4 in a row immediately subsequent to the "Hamburg Incident"?

I propose that Graf wasn't in a form slump... She just got her grommets kicked by a teenage superstar named Monica, and there was nothing she could do (apart from eat popcorn during "grunt gate".
Monica won 3 games against her at Wimbledon

I think Graf needed some motivation and let Seles win a couple of majors...
 

Brian11785

Hall of Fame
Monica won 3 games against her at Wimbledon

I think Graf needed some motivation and let Seles win a couple of majors...
So that lack of motivation dissipated once Seles was out of the picture and she no longer had to work for them? I truly hope your logic wasn't Steffi's. That would make her a pretty terrible person.
 

kiki

Banned
So that lack of motivation dissipated once Seles was out of the picture and she no longer had to work for them? I truly hope your logic wasn't Steffi's. That would make her a pretty terrible person.
I was kidding
But it becomes annoying that overhype when Graf was beating badly Seles even if Mónica was peaking
I pósted before Steffi is not responsible for the stabbing at all
Now if we talk about her behaviour in the RG final vs Martina that is another story...only that if someone is even more despicted than Graf here,it is of course,Hingis
 

Brian11785

Hall of Fame
I was kidding
But it becomes annoying that overhype when Graf was beating badly Seles even if Mónica was peaking
I pósted before Steffi is not responsible for the stabbing at all
Now if we talk about her behaviour in the RG final vs Martina that is another story...only that if someone is even more despicted than Graf here,it is of course,Hingis
It is what it is. There are terribly unsportstmanlike actions that can occur on a tennis court. It is our choice how we respond to them. That day wasn't either's most shining moment.
 

Brian11785

Hall of Fame
Seles is my second favorite player of all time (was by far my favorite player as a kid), but I try not to get too much into the hypotheticals and "what ifs" as far as Steffi and Monica go. It's just a never-ending rabbit hole? "What if Monica hadn't been stabbed?" "Well, what if Steffi's dad hadn't been in legal trouble?" "What if Monica'd been allowed to grunt at '92 Wimbledon?" etc., etc., etc.
 

kiki

Banned
Seles is my second favorite player of all time (was by far my favorite player as a kid), but I try not to get too much into the hypotheticals and "what ifs" as far as Steffi and Monica go. It's just a never-ending rabbit hole? "What if Monica hadn't been stabbed?" "Well, what if Steffi's dad hadn't been in legal trouble?" "What if Monica'd been allowed to grunt at '92 Wimbledon?" etc., etc., etc.
Yes, you are right.

I respected Seles great win to will and her perfect timing over groundstrokes even if she looked stretching too much at times.But she was never a favourite of mine.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Remember its normally one hell of a shock when the next bright star shows up and starts beating up on the number 1. Especially if thye have been completely dominant for several years. It rattles their confidence. They start seeing a rocking chair in their future and begin losing confidence which affects other results outside that rivalry. Happened to both Evert and Navratilova too. they spend so much time worrying about the new young rival, they forget to look and prepare for the rest of the tour! Its normal for what looks like a 'slump' to show up.
 
Steffi had more problems with Sabatini in the early 90s then she did with Monica...I don't recall Monica ever beating Steffi 5 or 6 times in a row like Gabriela did. In fact most of the Graf Seles matches were endurance battles.
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Steffi had more problems with Sabatini in the early 90s then she did with Monica...I don't recall Monica ever beating Steffi 5 or 6 times in a row like Gabriela did. In fact most of the Graf Seles matches were endurance battles.
The problem was Sabatini could only seem to beat Graf at the regular tour events and not at the majors. She only ever beat Graf at a major that one time when she won the US Open.

Beating Graf at Amelia Island or Hilton Head is one thing but you also need to do it at the majors. Sabatini's best streak was 5 wins in a row over Graf from the V.S. Championships of 1990 to Amelia Island of 1991 which happened after the US Open win. Steffi wound up winning their last 8 encounters.
 

kiki

Banned
Graf reminds me of Evert in that she never forgot defeats...

a big factor in Graf vs Sabatini is that both were friends and played often doubles..which means, Graf would probbaly step off the gear in those Hilton head or Amelia Island matches.

In a way, the Graf-Sabatini relationship remembers so much of the Hingis-Kournikova.
 
The problem was Sabatini could only seem to beat Graf at the regular tour events and not at the majors. She only ever beat Graf at a major that one time when she won the US Open.

Beating Graf at Amelia Island or Hilton Head is one thing but you also need to do it at the majors. Sabatini's best streak was 5 wins in a row over Graf from the V.S. Championships of 1990 to Amelia Island of 1991 which happened after the US Open win. Steffi wound up winning their last 8 encounters.
Oh I totally get what your saying...I mainly brought up sabatini and her successes over graf during the early 90s to show what dominating someone for a period of time really looks like since at one point Gaby won 7 out of 8 matches she played against Graf during this timeframe. Seles by comparison never got close to doing anything of that sort to Steffi thus the "handing her grommets" comment in the OP is totally ridiculous. She beat Steffi in severalajor finals but never dominated her and really never had an easy victory.

Gaby however for a stretch of time was probably the biggest pain in Steffis but and honestly never gets credit for it.
 
Graf reminds me of Evert in that she never forgot defeats...

a big factor in Graf vs Sabatini is that both were friends and played often doubles..which means, Graf would probbaly step off the gear in those Hilton head or Amelia Island matches.

In a way, the Graf-Sabatini relationship remembers so much of the Hingis-Kournikova.
Except hingis was never exactly respectful of Kournikova and when asked about their "rivalry" her response was a typical response her of "what rivalry I win all the matches". The relationship had really no similarities if your theorizing graf was letting sabatini win or taking it easy on her....because hingis never really showed a ton of respect to her partners.
 
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kiki

Banned
Except hingis was never exactly respectful of Kournikova and when asked about their "rivalry" her response was a typical response her of "what rivalry I win all the matches". The relationship had really no similarities if your theorizing graf was letting sabatini win or taking it easy on her....because hingis never really showed a ton of respect to her partners.
Martina defended so much Annja on tour and were as close as they could be, considering the press pressure and so on.Yes, she was a bit arrogant and brash, very straightforwards and certainly, the fact that Kounikova seldom beat her helped to that.But watch them play doubles and you´ll see the body and facial language speaking tons of shared pleasure.

That did not prevent them from having some mega clashes in the locker room...

BTW, good friends never let you beat them.They help you improve your game...see Borg vs Gerulaitis.The perfect tennis friendship IMO.
 

kiki

Banned
now that it´s been brought up...I always enjoyed the intringuing and so inner rich relationship among top women.

I talked about Hingis and Kourni.
Going backwards, sabatini was a strange case of being close to both Graf and Seles ( a bit like Vitas for the men), but she and ASV politely hated each other.Same for ASV and Conchita
Hana and Andrea, the two outsiders had a special feeling for each other, and I don´t think Mandlikova and Navratilova were that much harsh between themselves as the press liked to portray
But, the condo of interests and experiences Martina and Evert shared made a special friendship among them.Austin, of course, was never close to anybody, not even Shriver who was her junior rival.
Pam, of course, was good friends with Navy and not bad with Chris.

King and Court were polar opposites; but there was respect although it was not similar to what happened with Court andBueno; a firece rivalry but both geniunely liked the other.

Wade didn´t have too many friends on tour, something of her personality just didn´t fit.Goolagong, of course, was different and everybody, even Evert liked her.And King and Evert disliked each other even if King was a great friend of Navratilova who, in turn, had always a close relationship with Chris.
 

Rosewall

Rookie
I find it weird that Graf is the most disrespected former player on this forum. Seems like a new thread pops up every other week taking a new angle in trying to cut her career down. Are most posters Serbian and Hungarian?

Before there was a Monica Seles, Steffi Graf won the calendar golden slam as a teenager. Stop there and we can all agree she was a great champion.
 
I find it weird that Graf is the most disrespected former player on this forum. Seems like a new thread pops up every other week taking a new angle in trying to cut her career down. Are most posters Serbian and Hungarian?

Before there was a Monica Seles, Steffi Graf won the calendar golden slam as a teenager. Stop there and we can all agree she was a great champion.
Great champion true… truly the most consistent in the last 25 years.

Steffi is a tremendous athlete and her GS record proves that without a doubt.

I just heard some "Grafstics" saying she was slumping during Seles' rise in '90-'93… which is ridiculous considering during this time the GS record was:
Seles x8
Graf x6
Sabatini x1
Nav x1

Although 3 of the above wins occurred after Hamburg, no player should be considered slumping when they win 6 Slams, reach the final of another 4 and sit 1 out through injury…

Great record, it's just that Seles was a superior "big game" player during this time… (3-1 in the big 4 finals!)
 

BTURNER

Legend
I find it weird that Graf is the most disrespected former player on this forum. Seems like a new thread pops up every other week taking a new angle in trying to cut her career down. Are most posters Serbian and Hungarian?

Before there was a Monica Seles, Steffi Graf won the calendar golden slam as a teenager. Stop there and we can all agree she was a great champion.
There are less than a dozen players male and female in our history that just can't be 'cut down' Only the most foolish or trolls even dare try. you lose all credibility on a forum like this if you do, still in the cyber world we see here, credibility is not always paramount as a motivator.
 
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AngieB

Banned
There is a definite perception issue regarding Steffi post Australian Open 1990. No one in history (besides Maureen Connolly and Helen Wills Moody) could produce the grand slam singles results Steffi did 1988-AO 1990. She won 8 of the 9 GS events she entered during this period.

1988:
AO Champion
FO Champion
Wimbledon Champion
USO Champion

1989:
AO Champion
Wimbledon Champion
USO Champion

1990:
AO Champion

Steffi was going through quite a lot personally during the 18 month period after the 1990 AO. To assume that she should have been able to keep that type of consistency at the major events post 1990 would have been unprecedented in tennis history.

Steffi did go on to do this, which is certainly remarkable:

1993, 1995 and 1996

FO Champion
Wimbledon Champion
USO Champion

The tax issue with her father overshadowed much of her mid to late career, but she seemed to overcome.

Monica was great, but she wasn't a Maureen Connolly or Steffi Graf in her prime.

Angieb
 
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kiki

Banned
Stefi is top 5 ever, no possible discussion about that.Her field was pretty strong, considering she was already a top player in 1985 or 1986.She played them all from Navratilova to Hingis and from Evert to Williams.
 

Con_T

New User
There is a definite perception issue regarding Steffi post Australian Open 1990. No one in history (besides Maureen Connolly and Helen Wills Moody) could produce the grand slam singles results Steffi did 1988-AO 1990. She won 8 of the 9 GS events she entered during this period.

1988:
AO Champion
FO Champion
Wimbledon Champion
USO Champion

1989:
AO Champion
Wimbledon Champion
USO Champion

1990:
AO Champion

Poor Margaret Court always gets forgotten:

1969
AO Champion
French Champion
US Open Champion

1970
Grand Slam

1971
AO Champion

That's 8 of 9 GS in the same time period and 6 consecutively at one point. Respect! ;)
 

kiki

Banned
There is a definite perception issue regarding Steffi post Australian Open 1990. No one in history (besides Maureen Connolly and Helen Wills Moody) could produce the grand slam singles results Steffi did 1988-AO 1990. She won 8 of the 9 GS events she entered during this period.

1988:
AO Champion
FO Champion
Wimbledon Champion
USO Champion

1989:
AO Champion
Wimbledon Champion
USO Champion

1990:
AO Champion

Poor Margaret Court always gets forgotten:

1969
AO Champion
French Champion
US Open Champion

1970
Grand Slam

1971
AO Champion

That's 8 of 9 GS in the same time period and 6 consecutively at one point. Respect! ;)
So sure damn it.Her record is just overshadowed by her great play; possibly , and without much worth discussion, Margaret Smith Court was THE MOST COMPLETE PLAYER OF ALL TIME.

Able to beat at RG clay Queen Evert and able to beat Wimbledon Queen BJK at the AELTC.

Not to mention her doubles record; and her mixed record, specially with John Newcombe.
 

DMan

Professional
If the German "über-GOAT" was in a form rut from February 1990, allowing Seles, Navratilova & Sabatini to "snatch" slams from her mitts, how did she manage to win 4 in a row immediately subsequent to the "Hamburg Incident"?

I propose that Graf wasn't in a form slump... She just got her grommets kicked by a teenage superstar named Monica, and there was nothing she could do (apart from eat popcorn during "grunt gate".
Steffi got her "grommets kicked" in 1990, when she lost 2 matches to Monica: 6-4,6-3 in the German Open final, and a month later 7-6,6-4 in the French final. Both were big wins for Monica. And shocking for Steffi since she had only lost a grand total of 7 matches in the 3 years prior.

Of course it did take Monica another 2 years before shoe could beat Steffi again. And when she did that, at the 1992 French Open, Monica won 10-8 in the third, and was ranked #1. And a month laster, #2 Steffi let Monica eat a mere 3 bits of popcorn in demolishing her int he Wimbledon final. The worst loss in a major final by any player ranked #1.

"Nothing Steffi could do"? About what?

Anyone who knows anything about tennis (and anyone who isn't a troll) knows that Steffi Graf's "form rut" years were 1990-1991.
 
oohh, "anyone who knows anything about tennis"?

This isn't about knowing tennis (or trolling for that matter)… It's about a 16 year old girl defeating the undisputed long standing WTA #1, delivering the entire world a fresh, unique and brilliant form of sporting entertainment.

Seles handed Graf a dethroning.

Graf was not slumping. She was not distracted. She was just overtaken by youthful exuberance, unswerving belief and the most impressive skills since Steffi herself burst onto the scene.

It's frustrating we never saw "that" Seles peak.

Just as frustrating as posts trying to defend the #2 player in the world at the time.

Steffi tried, and tried, and tried to claw back enough points to become #1 again… she just could'nt do it until well after the '93 AO.
 

AngieB

Banned
oohh, "anyone who knows anything about tennis"?

This isn't about knowing tennis (or trolling for that matter)… It's about a 16 year old girl defeating the undisputed long standing WTA #1, delivering the entire world a fresh, unique and brilliant form of sporting entertainment.

Seles handed Graf a dethroning.

Graf was not slumping. She was not distracted. She was just overtaken by youthful exuberance, unswerving belief and the most impressive skills since Steffi herself burst onto the scene.

It's frustrating we never saw "that" Seles peak.

Just as frustrating as posts trying to defend the #2 player in the world at the time.

Steffi tried, and tried, and tried to claw back enough points to become #1 again… she just could'nt do it until well after the '93 AO.
I guess I'm attempting to find the historical significance of your comments. Both women's careers have completed.

Monica peaked at Wimbledon in 1992, making it to her one and only final, being handed the worst defeat given to a number 1 seed, 6-2, 6-1 by Steffi. Monica's game was not tailored for grass, because of her bilateral two-fisted groundies and limited movement. None of this is new news. Monica's history might have been different if she could play better on grass.

The reality is that Steffi's peak vs Monica's peak was grander, more historic and not seen since Maureen Connolly in the 1950's. No one has peaked like Steffi since.

As much as some folks would like to rewrite Monica's place in tennis history, it can't be done. The books have printed, they shipped many years ago and there are no retractions or rewrites.

Deal with it and go on with your life. Nothing you say will change what has been done. You need to pray about it.

PTL

AngieB
 
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Deal with it and go on with your life. Nothing you say will change what has been done. You need to pray about it.

PTL

AngieB
AngieB, I ask you not be condescending toward me as I'm not contributing to this forum for your insipid world view.

Thanks.

Part of my life (as others on this forum) is posting, discussing, reading and posting some more... So thanks for the heads-up on how to "go on with my life".

May almighty Allah bless you.

I disagree with your opinion in many ways:

1. Seles peaked well after WC '92 where in USO '92 she won without losing a set, and kept on winning through into '93. Your appraisal is just plain wrong.

2. The point of this thread and the OP is not to rewrite history (as your paranoid interpretation insists), on the contrary, it is to look at the Kraft Tour in the late 80's/early 90's and call Seles out on her part in crushing Steffi's stranglehold on the #1 ranking.

Simple really.
 

Gonzalito17

Banned
Seles was better than Graf. The Wimbledon final was unfair because they conspired to force Monica to play in silence. Imagine if they did that to Rafa or Sharapova...they would have no chance either.

Seles owned Graf, until the madman Graf fanatic stabbed her. I wonder if this madman sent letters to Graf telling her he was going to incapacitate Seles. And if Graf failed to report the threats.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Seles was better than Graf. The Wimbledon final was unfair because they conspired to force Monica to play in silence. Imagine if they did that to Rafa or Sharapova...they would have no chance either.

Seles owned Graf, until the madman Graf fanatic stabbed her. I wonder if this madman sent letters to Graf telling her he was going to incapacitate Seles. And if Graf failed to report the threats.
This has to be parody, a distinguished form of literary humor. At least that is how I preferred to read it. Its strange how ubiquitous parody becomes, in Seles/ Graf debate threads isn't it.
 

AngieB

Banned
AngieB, I ask you not be condescending toward me as I'm not contributing to this forum for your insipid world view.

Thanks.

Part of my life (as others on this forum) is posting, discussing, reading and posting some more... So thanks for the heads-up on how to "go on with my life".

May almighty Allah bless you.

I disagree with your opinion in many ways:

1. Seles peaked well after WC '92 where in USO '92 she won without losing a set, and kept on winning through into '93. Your appraisal is just plain wrong.

2. The point of this thread and the OP is not to rewrite history (as your paranoid interpretation insists), on the contrary, it is to look at the Kraft Tour in the late 80's/early 90's and call Seles out on her part in crushing Steffi's stranglehold on the #1 ranking.

Simple really.
No player in tennis history can be credited for "crushing" the professional tennis tour without winning Wimbledon. There are some in tennis history who rose to the number one ranking without winning a major, or not winning Wimbledon, but none of these players have ever been considered a GOAT. Ever.

As it relates to Seles, she was never a credible threat on grass for her entire career, which is why I'm amused at folks who continue attempting compare Seles and Graf historically.

There was a period that Chris Evert was losing to a younger Tracy Austin and the number one ranking in 1980. It was short-lived. Tracy never won Wimbledon.

Most all the modern GOAT's had their on-court nemesis that they eventually lost their ranking to, only to overcome and return to their prior status. I'll highlight the top four:

Evert/Navratilova
Evert/--Austin--> (no Wimbledon wins)
Graf/--Seles--> (no Wimbledon wins)
S. Williams/--Henin--> (no Wimbledon wins)

While all of these women are ITHOF worthy, only the players who won Wimbledon approach GOAT status. While I suppose it is nostalgic for some to pin-point a 24 month period of a players career when they played really, really well, it somewhat loses its historical value when placing it in context of an entire career that they didn't play well most of the latter.

Evert handled Austin
Navratilova handled Evert (another discussion for debate)
Graf handled Seles
Williams handled Henin

Other mentionable rivalries not as significant in my opinion:

Navratilova/Austin
Hingis/V. Williams
Graf/Hingis

#OurFatherWhoArtInHeaven

AngieB
 
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I totally agree, Steffi's career record outshines Monica's by an exponential factor, no question about it...

When you time travel back, it was impressive to see the then-Yugoslav usurp the German.

...and her win against Martina in the '92 Championships Semi WAS impressive (for a two hander with "unimpressive" grass court skills)...
 

DMan

Professional
AngieB, I ask you not be condescending toward me as I'm not contributing to this forum for your insipid world view.

Thanks.

Part of my life (as others on this forum) is posting, discussing, reading and posting some more... So thanks for the heads-up on how to "go on with my life".

May almighty Allah bless you.

I disagree with your opinion in many ways:

1. Seles peaked well after WC '92 where in USO '92 she won without losing a set, and kept on winning through into '93. Your appraisal is just plain wrong.

2. The point of this thread and the OP is not to rewrite history (as your paranoid interpretation insists), on the contrary, it is to look at the Kraft Tour in the late 80's/early 90's and call Seles out on her part in crushing Steffi's stranglehold on the #1 ranking.

Simple really.
If I said it a million times, I'll have to say it again, for a new troll and Gonzalito.

Long after the earth is destroyed by who knows what forces, and the only species that survives are cockroaches, there will still be discussions among the cockroaches (aka Selestials) about "what if....." (we all know Mons was better than Steffi! Yeah, that's right, she would have 40,634 major title by now! Mons was the best! Ever!)

You see, for Selestials cockroaches, keeping alive the discussion, the "what if...." in their own mind they come out winning. Of course it's easy when you're delusional, and the only thing you have going for you is to continuously wonder "what if...." 20+ years after the fact about something that.....DIDN'T HAPPEN TO YOU!
 
Well lets see, Graf's record by year:

1987: 75-2
1988: 72-3
1989: 86-2

1991: 71-8
1992: 76-7

1995: 47-2
1996: 54-4

Graf's record in 1991 and 1992 has nothing to do with Seles btw, who Graf lost only 1 match to in 1992 and 0 in 1991. That means even taking Seles out Graf still posts all those losses compared to her best years. Did every other women on tour (not just Seles obviously) magically become better only during those 2/3 years.

In 1991 and 1992 Graf made the final of only THREE of the biggest 12 events. Again absolutely nothing to do with Seles, who was in the opposite half each time. So even if Seles didn't exist Graf would have won at most 3 of the biggest 12 events (maybe only 1 or 2 as the semifinal loser could have beaten Graf how she was this period), and probably still made the final of only half at most. This is WITHOUT Seles.

Lastly Graf lost 7 of 8 matches to freaking Sabatini during this stretch. Draw your own conclusions.
 
Seles was better than Graf. The Wimbledon final was unfair
It was unfair since it was ridiculous to make the greatest grass courter of all time play such a sorely overmatched opponent on the surface. It was unfair to Seles too, to be subjected to such a total humiliation even at the peak of her powers.
 

AngieB

Banned
Well lets see, Graf's record by year:

1987: 75-2
1988: 72-3
1989: 86-2

1991: 71-8
1992: 76-7

1995: 47-2
1996: 54-4

Graf's record in 1991 and 1992 has nothing to do with Seles btw, who Graf lost only 1 match to in 1992 and 0 in 1991. That means even taking Seles out Graf still posts all those losses compared to her best years. Did every other women on tour (not just Seles obviously) magically become better only during those 2/3 years.

In 1991 and 1992 Graf made the final of only THREE of the biggest 12 events. Again absolutely nothing to do with Seles, who was in the opposite half each time. So even if Seles didn't exist Graf would have won at most 3 of the biggest 12 events (maybe only 1 or 2 as the semifinal loser could have beaten Graf how she was this period), and probably still made the final of only half at most. This is WITHOUT Seles.

Lastly Graf lost 7 of 8 matches to freaking Sabatini during this stretch. Draw your own conclusions.
The 1989 French Open semifinals (Graf's worst loss) was the first public glimpse of off-court woes for Steffi. Steffi tanked that match in order to get off-court after Peter was scuffling in the stands and it was the one and only time I've watched a tennis professional do something similar (maybe Andrea Jaeger at Wimbledon).

Steffi had 99 problems and Monica wasn't one of them in my opinion. I don't think Steffi ever internalized any "rivalry" with Monica that was clearly media-generated. We know this by Steffi's results against all her opponents throughout her career and her ability to regain her ranking against the second-best"s" of her generation. Steffi even defeated Hingis in a grand slam final past her prime, months before her retirement. Steffi was just so much better than her contemporaries that she always had the confidence to defeat her rivals. She was just that good. Steffi's mental attributes are largely overlooked while discussing her greatness.

Just what she was able to do to Evert-Navratilova as a teenager made her a legend in my opinion.

AngieB
 
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There are so many double standards towards Steffi it is unbelievable.

Martina aged 28-32 was supposably "old" and not in her prime in 86-89 when Steffi began beating her (winning 7 of 10 encounters I believe), won more tournaments, spent more time at #1, and won 8 slams to only 4 that period for Martina. Even though Martina was the ultimate late bloomer, who had only TWO slams on her 25th birthday. Yet Steffi at the same age around 98-99 was still in her prime, even coming back from major reconstructive knee surgery which all but gave her a 40 year old body by that point. Naturally because she began losing some matches to Davenport, Hingis, and the Williams, that is what all want to believe.

Steffi was supposably already in her prime aged 16-18 in 86 and 87, even though her level of play in 88-90 showed a monstrous jump, and even though Seles, an earlier peaker than Graf, supposably wasnt even "prime yet" in 90-93 aged 16-19. Furthermore people like 19 year old Venus who lost 2 of 3 encounters to Graf in 99 was supposabaly "too young" "still a baby" against 30 year old, back from major surgery, Graf.

It is embarassing for Graf to lose a match to 34 year old Navratilova at the U.S Open and supposably proof prime Martina would dominate Graf. This despite it was Martina's first win over Graf in 4 whole years, and 1 of only 2 wins over 30 Martina managed against Graf in a whopping 7 more years of full time singles tennis on tour. Contrasted to Martina herself who in her prime lost 5 times to 33 year old or older Billie Jean King, including trouncings on grass and indoors to 35 and 36 year old King which she managed 4 games or less in each.

Steffi was lucky to face old haggish Martina in 86-89 but Seles showed what an amazing grass courter she was by barely beating 35 year old Martina at Wimbledon, the same Martina who lost to 15 year old Capriati and Conchita Martinez at Wimbledon around that same time.

Steffi is playing her best ever tennis in a period she has poorer records vs everyone in the top 10 (Sanchez, Sabatini, Seles, older than ever Navratilova, Chokevotna) than any other time in her career. No matter all the evidence says otherwise, everyone else just magically played better than ever and caused Steffi to have much poorer results in everyway during the best time of tennis of her whole career.

I could go on forever, but I am already laughing too hard typing it out.
 

AngieB

Banned
There are so many double standards towards Steffi it is unbelievable.

Martina aged 28-32 was supposably "old" and not in her prime in 86-89 when Steffi began beating her (winning 7 of 10 encounters I believe), won more tournaments, spent more time at #1, and won 8 slams to only 4 that period for Martina. Even though Martina was the ultimate late bloomer, who had only TWO slams on her 25th birthday. Yet Steffi at the same age around 98-99 was still in her prime, even coming back from major reconstructive knee surgery which all but gave her a 40 year old body by that point. Naturally because she began losing some matches to Davenport, Hingis, and the Williams, that is what all want to believe.

Steffi was supposably already in her prime aged 16-18 in 86 and 87, even though her level of play in 88-90 showed a monstrous jump, and even though Seles, an earlier peaker than Graf, supposably wasnt even "prime yet" in 90-93 aged 16-19. Furthermore people like 19 year old Venus who lost 2 of 3 encounters to Graf in 99 was supposabaly "too young" "still a baby" against 30 year old, back from major surgery, Graf.

It is embarassing for Graf to lose a match to 34 year old Navratilova at the U.S Open and supposably proof prime Martina would dominate Graf. This despite it was Martina's first win over Graf in 4 whole years, and 1 of only 2 wins over 30 Martina managed against Graf in a whopping 7 more years of full time singles tennis on tour. Contrasted to Martina herself who in her prime lost 5 times to 33 year old or older Billie Jean King, including trouncings on grass and indoors to 35 and 36 year old King which she managed 4 games or less in each.

Steffi was lucky to face old haggish Martina in 86-89 but Seles showed what an amazing grass courter she was by barely beating 35 year old Martina at Wimbledon, the same Martina who lost to 15 year old Capriati and Conchita Martinez at Wimbledon around that same time.

Steffi is playing her best ever tennis in a period she has poorer records vs everyone in the top 10 (Sanchez, Sabatini, Seles, older than ever Navratilova, Chokevotna) than any other time in her career. No matter all the evidence says otherwise, everyone else just magically played better than ever and caused Steffi to have much poorer results in everyway during the best time of tennis of her whole career.

I could go on forever, but I am already laughing too hard typing it out.
Martina Navratilova was clearly the number one player in 1986 and kept that ranking well into 1987. Graf's emergence to challenge Martina in the grand slam events started at the 1987 French Open finals, of which she won. Martina went on to win Wimbledon and the US Open in 1987. There was a lot of controversy about Steffi overtaking Martina in the rankings, given Martina held two GS titles that year and Steffi only one. Steffi made it to the finals of almost every event she played in 1987 which helped her overtake Martina in the rankings. Steffi continued on to dominate 1988-1989.

It is not uncommon for aged GOAT's to defeat their successors late in their career. I don't think it was a bad loss for Steffi to lose to a 34 year old Martina, because Martina was still playing great tennis and at that time won more grand slam singles titles than Steffi. Experience goes a long way. Similarly, I don't think Martina's losses to 12-time grand slam winner Billie Jean were bad either, because Martina hadn't yet established her dominance in grand slam singles play at that time.

Monica's defeat of Martina at Wimbledon would have been more historically significant had she been able to actually WIN Wimbledon at ANY time during her career.

Now that Martina, Monica and Steffi's grand slam singles careers are over, it is very evident that Steffi was the greatest overall singles champion in grand slam events of the three with Martina (exceptional at Wimbledon) close behind. The standard set by Steffi has not since been replicated or surpassed. No double standards there, just her legendary play speaks for itself. Monica shouldn't even be discussed alongside Steffi and Martina in context to GOAT discussions. She wasn't even close.

AngieB
 
Grand Slam Finals before Hamburg:

- 1990 FO Final Seles smashes Graf.
- 1992 FO Final Seles smashes Graf.
- 1992 W Final Graf smashes Seles.
- 1993 AO Final Seles smashes Graf.

The GOAT got embarrassed to the MAxiMum.

Even in the '91 USO final, Seles smashed Navi who just smashed Graf… so another smashing there by default.

We were robbed I tells ya!!! Robbed of more WTA tennis goodness!!!

Great debate though.
 

kiki

Banned
The 1989 French Open semifinals (Graf's worst loss) was the first public glimpse of off-court woes for Steffi. Steffi tanked that match in order to get off-court after Peter was scuffling in the stands and it was the one and only time I've watched a tennis professional do something similar (maybe Andrea Jaeger at Wimbledon).

Steffi had 99 problems and Monica wasn't one of them in my opinion. I don't think Steffi ever internalized any "rivalry" with Monica that was clearly media-generated. We know this by Steffi's results against all her opponents throughout her career and her ability to regain her ranking against the second-best"s" of her generation. Steffi even defeated Hingis in a grand slam final past her prime, months before her retirement. Steffi was just so much better than her contemporaries that she always had the confidence to defeat her rivals. She was just that good. Steffi's mental attributes are largely overlooked while discussing her greatness.

Just what she was able to do to Evert-Navratilova as a teenager made her a legend in my opinion.

AngieB
Whether 99 Steffi ( or all time Steff) has or not a problem, it is only with her conscience.
 

AngieB

Banned
Whether 99 Steffi ( or all time Steff) has or not a problem, it is only with her conscience.
Steffi conducted herself professionally throughout her career and acted humbly in spite of her historical greatness (unlike a couple of her successors). Your persistence in attempting to usurp history by casting your negative perception onto Steffi with thinly-veiled untruths is quite odd to me. You show great support for a woman who was banned from tennis for drug use, yet go out of your way to cast negativity onto Steffi. I suppose next you'll be cheering on the tennis abortionists on as well.

AngieB
 

BTURNER

Legend
Steffi conducted herself professionally throughout her career and acted humbly in spite of her historical greatness (unlike a couple of her successors). Your persistence in attempting to usurp history by casting your negative perception onto Steffi with thinly-veiled untruths is quite odd to me. You show great support for a woman who was banned from tennis for drug use, yet go out of your way to cast negativity onto Steffi. I suppose next you'll be cheering on the tennis abortionists on as well.

AngieB
Do we have to trade smeers here? I have always thought Steffi was a thorough professional including RG in 99, but I am not sure I have ever found a truly 'humble' number 1 in women's tennis and the sense of arrogance almost all greats ( excepting Goolagong) was apparent in Graf as well. When you know you are top dog, you walk like one.

I think you are getting a bit caught up, angie. For most of her career, I doubt Hingis was using those drugs and it ought not define her.
 

kiki

Banned
Steffi conducted herself professionally throughout her career and acted humbly in spite of her historical greatness (unlike a couple of her successors). Your persistence in attempting to usurp history by casting your negative perception onto Steffi with thinly-veiled untruths is quite odd to me. You show great support for a woman who was banned from tennis for drug use, yet go out of your way to cast negativity onto Steffi. I suppose next you'll be cheering on the tennis abortionists on as well.

AngieB
If you had followed my already deleted thread on Chris Evert, you would know right now that I am not too nice to abortionists.

BTW, Graf never lost a sf to Seles in the FO 89, she lost the final to ASV.A completely memorable final, by the way, not that one you mentioned against Martina, whom you clearly dispicte.
 

AngieB

Banned
Do we have to trade smeers here? I have always thought Steffi was a thorough professional including RG in 99, but I am not sure I have ever found a truly 'humble' number 1 in women's tennis and the sense of arrogance almost all greats ( excepting Goolagong) was apparent in Graf as well. When you know you are top dog, you walk like one.

I think you are getting a bit caught up, angie. For most of her career, I doubt Hingis was using those drugs and it ought not define her.
I never sensed any arrogance from Steffi. She most certainly projected confidence on-court, and clearly wanted to win, but aside from her remarks at age 17 about overtaking Navratilova/Evert, she always acted shy and humble publicly. Steffi never went out of her way to call-out her opponents to the media in the manner Evert, Navratilova, Hingis, and S. Williams did. Seles should also be credited alongside Steffi for staying above the fray in this regard.

My reference to Hingis was rhetiorical in context to Kiki's continued questioning Steffi's behaviors. I think Kiki applies double standards to players behaviors based upon his/her personal bias. No big deal.

#CaughtUpInJesus

AngieB
 

AngieB

Banned
If you had followed my already deleted thread on Chris Evert, you would know right now that I am not too nice to abortionists.
I clearly remember the Evert thread. I used Hingis as a rhetorical example of how you sometimes overlook glaring faults of some players, and magnify minimal faults of others (Graf). The abortionist comment was also rhetorical in nature as a reminder of consistency.
BTW, Graf never lost a sf to Seles in the FO 89, she lost the final to ASV.A completely memorable final, by the way, not that one you mentioned against Martina, whom you clearly dispicte.
I have never referenced the Hingis controversy regarding 1999 French Open Finals in this thread. I did however make a mistake in describing the 1991 French Open Semifinal Sanchez-Vicario d. Graf 6-2, 6-0 as being 1989.

Martina Hingis is such an historical anomaly in the strong manner of which she arrived and quickly faded. She blamed the manufacturer of her shoes for her foot/ankle problems, suing them unsuccessfully and denied drug use after testing positive. These two examples show a pattern of Hingis' behavior, in which while in denial of her personal circumstance, she deflects the truth. It's just an observation. I don't despise any tennis player. I love tennis and Jesus.

I do hold a little anxiety about why Mary Pierce hasn't yet been inducted into the ITHOF. The same cabal that was unsupportive and attempted to obstruct her career are the same folks who are delaying her induction, IMO. Another thread, another day.

AngieB
 
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kiki

Banned
I never sensed any arrogance from Steffi. She most certainly projected confidence on-court, and clearly wanted to win, but aside from her remarks at age 17 about overtaking Navratilova/Evert, she always acted shy and humble publicly. Steffi never went out of her way to call-out her opponents to the media in the manner Evert, Navratilova, Hingis, and S. Williams did. Seles should also be credited alongside Steffi for staying above the fray in this regard.

My reference to Hingis was rhetiorical in context to Kiki's continued questioning Steffi's behaviors. I think Kiki applies double standards to players behaviors based upon his/her personal bias. No big deal.

#CaughtUpInJesus

AngieB
yes, it is no big deal.I just wanted to remark that Graf´s behaviour was not always perfect; had she done what she did in the RG F against Hingis in a first round match at Charleston, nobody would ever take notice.That was not the case.

And if you like to balance things and be fair morally, then you should admitt that for all her veinal sins off courts, that day Martina was not ( only) one to blame at ( other than her stupid and unmature outburst since she was still leading in the match).

She, of course was a far more accomplished player than Hingis.

Hope we can still comment on women´s players once some heat is coole doff.
 

AngieB

Banned
yes, it is no big deal.I just wanted to remark that Graf´s behaviour was not always perfect; had she done what she did in the RG F against Hingis in a first round match at Charleston, nobody would ever take notice.That was not the case.

And if you like to balance things and be fair morally, then you should admitt that for all her veinal sins off courts, that day Martina was not ( only) one to blame at ( other than her stupid and unmature outburst since she was still leading in the match).

She, of course was a far more accomplished player than Hingis.

Hope we can still comment on women´s players once some heat is coole doff.
Kiki, I don't get worked-up about anything related to a tennis discussion group. I enjoy discussing tennis and recognize we all have different perceptions and opinions. I might not agree with something you state, but I will never personally hold it against you because I know we all love the sport. In that regard, we are all symbiotically related.

AngieB
 

kiki

Banned
Kiki, I don't get worked-up about anything related to a tennis discussion group. I enjoy discussing tennis and recognize we all have different perceptions and opinions. I might not agree with something you state, but I will never personally hold it against you because I know we all love the sport. In that regard, we are all symbiotically related.

AngieB
That´s fair enough
 

kiki

Banned
And are you, dearest Kiki, Steffi's 'conscience'?
I doubt she has any...I mean, did she apologize to Martina later on?

remember Connors did to Barazzutti at the 77 USO sf? well, I don´t think that was any different from that.
 

DMan

Professional
I doubt she has any...I mean, did she apologize to Martina later on?

remember Connors did to Barazzutti at the 77 USO sf? well, I don´t think that was any different from that.
Steffi apologize to Martina?!

Martina who?

And for what reason?

Jimmy Connors crossed the net in his 1977 US Open semi against Barazzutti, to snuff out a mark the linesman was checking out.

Now, it was Martina Hingis who crossed the net to check out a mark.

So Connors crossed the net. So did Martina. And Steffi needs to apologize?!?!

Kikian logic:

Bash Graf and Evert for the simple fact that she lives an empty soulless life, devoid of a scintilla of knowledge about tennis. :(
 
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