Was having issues playing on hard court

I play on clay 99% of the time.

Played on hard court and the opponent's serve felt like it was not bouncing.
I had to dig the ball out from my ankles.
I stood a lot closer to baseline, since the serve was not bouncing.
Is this the deal?

I also felt like I could never unload on a FH.
Timing just was not right. Something was off.
I have evolved to only crush FH when it's in the strike zone.
On hard court, ball was rarely in the strike zone.
Felt like I couldnt swing out
Not sure if it was the court or the opponent.
I've played same opponent on clay, and never had this issue.

What is the bounce like on hard court? Lower? higher?
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
I play on clay 99% of the time.

Played on hard court and the opponent's serve felt like it was not bouncing.
I had to dig the ball out from my ankles.
I stood a lot closer to baseline, since the serve was not bouncing.
Is this the deal?

I also felt like I could never unload on a FH.
Timing just was not right. Something was off.
I have evolved to only crush FH when it's in the strike zone.
On hard court, ball was rarely in the strike zone.
Felt like I couldnt swing out
Not sure if it was the court or the opponent.
I've played same opponent on clay, and never had this issue.

What is the bounce like on hard court? Lower? higher?
As you probably know HC can vary a lot depending on the surface composition. But in my experience between the two surfaces I have noticed the following:

Clay court accentuates the spin on the ball. TS really makes the ball jump and side spin can make the ball make a left or right turn. This is less so on HC.

On clay balls tend to bounce up higher and sort of sit there if they are not hit with heavy spin. On HC balls tend to bounce through the court. IE hard court is faster than clay.

Serves in particular tend to stay lower on HC especially if they are flat while kick serves are less effective than on clay.

So it sounds like you were playing against a good server on a surface that is faster than you are used to. Perhaps he had an especially flat or slicing serve that kept it especially low. Also the angle the server hits at makes a difference. If he hits it at a lower angle the ball will bounce at a lower angle as well. Add in some slice and you could have the ankle serves you were describing on every point.
 
Clay court accentuates the spin on the ball. TS really makes the ball jump and side spin can make the ball make a left or right turn. This is less so on HC.
On clay balls tend to bounce up higher and sort of sit there if they are not hit with heavy spin. On HC balls tend to bounce through the court. IE hard court is faster than clay.

Serves in particular tend to stay lower on HC especially if they are flat while kick serves are less effective than on clay.

So it sounds like you were playing against a good server on a surface that is faster than you are used to. Perhaps he had an especially flat or slicing serve that kept it especially low. Also the angle the server hits at makes a difference. If he hits it at a lower angle the ball will bounce at a lower angle as well. Add in some slice and you could have the ankle serves you were describing on every point.
Exactly.

He had a flat serve that would skid. All I could do was block them back. Adult 4.0 can put away any short ball. Strong service games.
I had to wait for that flat serve to stop working, and then I took control of the match.

So, if HC does not bounce as much, I think I will stop using a kick 2nd, and switch to a slice 2nd.
Maybe I will slice more in general on HC. Use the low bounce to my advantage
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
Exactly.

He had a flat serve that would skid. All I could do was block them back. Adult 4.0 can put away any short ball. Strong service games.
I had to wait for that flat serve to stop working, and then I took control of the match.

So, if HC does not bounce as much, I think I will stop using a kick 2nd, and switch to a slice 2nd.
Maybe I will slice more in general on HC. Use the low bounce to my advantage
Yeah you better have a good kick serve on HC if your opponent has a strong return. Fortunately for me most of my opponents don’t have particularly good returns so I can get away with it. I don’t trust my slice serve enough to use for a 2nd serve.
 

stapletonj

Professional
additionally, hard courts can vary based on 3 factors, any of which can make a big difference.

in a public courts type setting, often the courts get little or no maintenance. dirt can build up. that makes the ball tend to skid and stay more more.

you can also dial in the amount of "sand" in the hard court topping mix, thereby making the court faster or almost as slow as a clay court. For example, on my home uni's courts (Marshall) there is so much sand in the mix it is like playing on clay, the balls dig in and check up so much. Unfortunately, it is also really easy for your shoe to "catch" and roll your ankle.

Finally, if you have an indoor club that is trying to save money and goes for years without resurfacing the courts, they can be slick as glass as far as the ball hitting and staying low.
 
Funny how one day all 4.0’s are bunty pushers. The next day they can all put away any short ball.
What part of that confuses you?
They are not mutually exclusive.
Do you even play tennis, bro?

3.5 bash balls from the baseline. Every ball is a winner. Can't sustain rally past 3 balls.
4.0 are bunty reliable pushers from baseline.

3.5 crush serves and DF a lot. Aces and DF's galore.
4.0 are dink servers. No DFs. No aces.

3.5 demolish approach shots and hit them harder than Nadal into the back fence. If they hit the net, it may tear.
4.0 can put away any short ball. It may be ugly, but they do not miss. They will bunty push the approach DTL or drop shot.

Tennis is hard,
Confusing too many
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
What part of that confuses you?
You’re the one who called 4.0’s bunty pushers, and then subsequently claimed all 4.0’s can put away any short ball. Anyone who would make those two claims about the same group of players is very obviously the one who is confused, not me.

Do you even play tennis, bro?
Let’s see...

Former division 1 college player
Currently teaching tennis at a club and coaching at a college

Yeah, I play...bro.

The rest of your gobbledegook about various NTRP ratings and attributes is so laughable I won’t both to dignify it with a response.
 
Bunty pusher from baseline means "gets the ball in"
Same mindset and junk strokes can buntily put away any short ball "gets the ball in"

3.5 can't hit approach since they take a full windup groundstroke even if they are 3 feet from the net.

You're living in the ivory tower.
I am in the daily trenches of the reality of adult rec tennis.
You have no idea what I am talking about.
 
Go back to your 5.0 fantasy unicorn bubble.
I am Edward R. Murrow, reporting from the daily trenches of the reality of 3.5 & 4.0 adult rec tennis.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Has it occurred to you, as a teaching pro...I work with players of all levels (including yours)? I’m not in any kind of “fantasy unicorn bubble.” Maybe you are.
I'm sorry, let me try to translate for you.

Since you have shown that you know what you are talking about you have been deemed ineligible to participate in TTPS's conversation.

I'm sorry if you find this confusing, but you will have to trust me.

J
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
Has it occurred to you, as a teaching pro...I work with players of all levels (including yours)? I’m not in any kind of “fantasy unicorn bubble.” Maybe you are.
I'm sorry, let me try to translate for you.

Since you have shown that you know what you are talking about you have been deemed ineligible to participate in TTPS's conversation.

I'm sorry if you find this confusing, but you will have to trust me.

J
It’s time for @am1899 to join us on the TTPS ignore list! :laughing:
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
Same mindset and junk strokes can buntily put away any short ball "gets the ball in"
Buntily? LOL this is truly hilarious.

So let me get this straight. A 4.0 gets a short ball, and bunts it over “gets the ball in.” And with that shot he wins the point outright - with no reply from his 4.0 opponent? Is the opponent sleeping? Incapacitated? 4.0’s are incapable of running down a bunted approach shot?
 

Saul Goode

Semi-Pro
Bunty pusher from baseline means "gets the ball in"
Same mindset and junk strokes can buntily put away any short ball "gets the ball in"

3.5 can't hit approach since they take a full windup groundstroke even if they are 3 feet from the net.

You're living in the ivory tower.
I am in the daily trenches of the reality of adult rec tennis.
You have no idea what I am talking about.
BACKPEDAL
 
Has it occurred to you, as a teaching pro...I work with players of all levels (including yours)? I’m not in any kind of “fantasy unicorn bubble.” Maybe you are.
Of the last 10 clients, how many were 4.0 ?
I estimate 0 out of 10 were 4.0

Also, how often do you run drills with approach shots?

Why almost no tennis coaches can actually coach worth a damn.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Of the last 10 clients, how many were 4.0 ?
I estimate 0 out of 10 were 4.0

Also, how often do you run drills with approach shots?
I won't requote your link to an inane thread as I think most coaches are worth more than we pay them.

In terms of your question on approach shots. In group and/or team clinics I cannot think of a single clinic that did NOT include drilling approach shots.
 
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am1899

Hall of Fame
How often do you run drills with approach shots?
Routinely.

Are you really this obtuse? You offer up another thread that you started...filled with your own assertions...as what? Some kind of proof that I can’t coach - because you say so? :-D
 
I can't speak for clinics.
Haven't been to one in years, once I became a SERIOUS 3.5
(2.5 sandbagger gunning for Nationals)

Group lessons are a total waste of money.

Group lessons are a total waste of money.

I don't even want to use the word lesson, since you're not taught jack.
They are entertainment for retired folks.

Serious players do not take group lessons.
Tell her to learn to deal with 1-1 coaching.


I have never gotten a single useful tip in a "clinic"
What kind of analysis and feedback are you going to get with 7 other people standing around?
None, that's what.

Clinics are chaperoned point games, like babysitting kids.
A clinic can be run by someone who literally has never played tennis.
Total and absolute waste of time and money.

Further, if level is below 4.5,
you're just reinforcing broken strokes into muscle memory.
You're better off not even playing, at that point.

And even if you got a useful tip, it's useless unless you drill it for 100's of reps.
Otherwise, you do it twice, then go back to your old habits.

The proof?
People take 3.0 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.0
People take 3.5 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.5
If they do get better, it's never because of the clinic.

$50 clinic weekly is $2000/year. $10k in 5 years, with zero improvement. Same garbage strokes.
Take that same $2000, and allocate it toward 40 private lessons, and you will see a true difference.

IMHO, group lessons/clinics are a horrendous waste of money, assuming you're trying to become a better player

The problem is Dunning Kruger.

And, people get bad coaching (or none at all) and do not even know it.

Ever clinic I've ever observed shows to me the players are going backwards in their development
by grooving broken strokes into muscle memory, with zero correction or drill.
Just amusing games for bored kids and grannies.

Pros don't take group clinics.
People buy their rackets and shoes, but then train nothing like pros.

The difference in private lessons is that you're drilling and isolating and doing the reps during the lesson.
I don't take lessons for "tips" That's idiotic after learning the basics.
Lessons are to do 100's of correct reps with live feedback!
So, you can take lessons and not do a lick of HW, and you will absolutely start to develop the right muscle memory.
That is assuming you have a decent coach.
Most coaches can't coach worth a **** since they do nothing but coach 2.0 level grannies and children all day.

This is the eternal debate I have in my head when I see people in groups/clinics.
On the one hand, your group kid is at least playing, so that's good.
On the other hand, he is developing junk mechanics, so he's going backwards.
Clinics only reinforce bad habits that will need to be broken later, if he ever gets serious.

The bottom line is that tennis is work. Very hard work.
Training a D1 bound colllege kid requires both: Playing, and playing correctly.
Very few people ever do both

Being in a clinic run by Federer himself is a total and complete waste of time.
You will walk out with no difference in your game. None. Zero. Zilch.

Tennis is not about "tips"
Tips are 1%.
If tips meant anything, everyone who ever watched a YouTube video would be a 5.0

The 99% is doing 100,000,000 correct reps.

Even an "advanced" 4.5+ clinic I attended was exactly that: Ball feed and keep score.
A paralyzed librarian could have run the clinic.

I think the only people who should do clinics are those who are already experts
and simply want a venue for hitting balls. For that, I'd call it "group drilling"
But, for anyone who is still developing strokes, clinics is a waste of their time and money.
No feedback. No stroke correction. No drilling correct reps.
Just reinforcing bad habits. Utility is either zero or negative.


When I see kids in clinics, I see them arming the ball with zero guidance, training, or feedback.
Just ball feeds and keeping track of score.
I think to myself, they are going backwards, if they ever intend on playing real tennis.

If you're enjoying it, you're doing it wrong.
You know why pros break down and cry when they win?
B/c of the blood, sweat, and tears they shed to get there.
Not because they had fun clinics with friends.
Want to be great at tennis?
You need to leave your friends and family and move into a tennis camp in Siberia.
Or Florida. LOL!
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Since i started playing tennis 6, 7 years ago, all i did was taking about 20 group tennis lessons, for probably a total of $200. I went from 2.5 to a pretty decent 4.0 over that time span.
Where are your assertions now???
BTW, in group lessons, they do approach shot drills all the time.
 
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mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
Routinely.



Are you really this obtuse? You offer up another thread that you started...filled with your own assertions...as what? Some kind of proof that I can’t coach - because you say so? :-D
Actually, yes, he is. Here’s more proof.

1. He really believed that topspin makes the ball go into the net.
2. He couldn’t figure out how to open a set of strings without ending up with a bird’s nest tangled mess that required 30 mins to unravel.
3. Because he couldn’t string a racquet in under 2 hours, anyone who claimed they could do it in 20 mins was a liar.
4. In cinching up a Parnell knot, he pulled the first loop tight, then took an awl to struggle to reopen the knot he just cinched up tight to slip the tail of the string through for the second loop. And he continued to do this for almost a year before he shared what he was doing on the stringing forum at which point a few patient members kindly pointed out he was tying the knot incorrectly. Of course he told them they had zero idea what they were talking about because he was too dense to understand their instructions. Finally he blamed his incorrect method of cinching the knot on an step by step instructional video created by a a very good professional stringer which he admitted to watching with the sound muted. To this day, he blames the video for his incorrect knot.

And there are many, many more examples. :-D
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
Actually, yes, he is. Here’s more proof.

1. He really believed that topspin makes the ball go into the net.
2. He couldn’t figure out how to open a set of strings without ending up with a bird’s nest tangled mess that required 30 mins to unravel.
3. Because he couldn’t string a racquet in under 2 hours, anyone who claimed they could do it in 20 mins was a liar.
4. In cinching up a Parnell knot, he pulled the first loop tight, then took an awl to struggle to reopen the knot he just cinched up tight to slip the tail of the string through for the second loop. And he continued to do this for almost a year before he shared what he was doing on the stringing forum at which point a few patient members kindly pointed out he was tying the knot incorrectly. Of course he told them they had zero idea what they were talking about because he was too dense to understand their instructions. Finally he blamed his incorrect method of cinching the knot on an step by step instructional video created by a a very good professional stringer which he admitted to watching with the sound muted. To this day, he blames the video for his incorrect knot.

And there are many, many more examples. :-D
Oh I am fully aware. That knot video - I posted it for him. LOL
 

R1FF

Semi-Pro
Buntily? LOL this is truly hilarious.

So let me get this straight. A 4.0 gets a short ball, and bunts it over “gets the ball in.” And with that shot he wins the point outright - with no reply from his 4.0 opponent? Is the opponent sleeping? Incapacitated? 4.0’s are incapable of running down a bunted approach shot?
Where I live, one of the things that ALL 4.0’s can do is put away a short ball. And by put it away I mean FH slice it hard & away or go with a TS forehand that has more pace than I can chase down. And Im really fast.

It’s kinda one of the measuring sticks of a 4.0 imo.

And so, if they’re bunting them, they’re not a 4.0 imo.
 

Johnr

Rookie
TTPS - If you are going to make so many grandoise, mostly ludicrous statements and insult people at the same time, why are you blocking so many users? If you believe what you say, why are you censoring the people who can call you out on it? Soon you will only be having conversations with yourself. Grow a pair and take everyone off of your ignore list.
 
Where I live, one of the things that ALL 4.0’s can do is put away a short ball. And by put it away I mean FH slice it hard & away or go with a TS forehand that has more pace than I can chase down. And Im really fast.

It’s kinda one of the measuring sticks of a 4.0 imo.

And so, if they’re bunting them, they’re not a 4.0 imo.
Exactly.

Since 4.0 pushers do not have good topspin strokes, most have ugly grotesque approach shots also
More flick of the wrist and more racket head drop for extra spin.
Instead, the 4.0 approach shot resembles their overall game. Ugly but reliable. 4.0 tennis.
They will often slice approach, or bunty flat approach, or drop approach.
Some can have an awkward jerky topspin approach, I'll give you that.
But I've yet to meet a 4.0 pusher with a technically sound and smooth approach shot.
 
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