Was having issues playing on hard court

Saul Goode

Semi-Pro
I can't speak for clinics.
Haven't been to one in years, once I became a SERIOUS 3.5
(2.5 sandbagger gunning for Nationals)

Group lessons are a total waste of money.

Group lessons are a total waste of money.

I don't even want to use the word lesson, since you're not taught jack.
They are entertainment for retired folks.

Serious players do not take group lessons.
Tell her to learn to deal with 1-1 coaching.


I have never gotten a single useful tip in a "clinic"
What kind of analysis and feedback are you going to get with 7 other people standing around?
None, that's what.

Clinics are chaperoned point games, like babysitting kids.
A clinic can be run by someone who literally has never played tennis.
Total and absolute waste of time and money.

Further, if level is below 4.5,
you're just reinforcing broken strokes into muscle memory.
You're better off not even playing, at that point.

And even if you got a useful tip, it's useless unless you drill it for 100's of reps.
Otherwise, you do it twice, then go back to your old habits.

The proof?
People take 3.0 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.0
People take 3.5 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.5
If they do get better, it's never because of the clinic.

$50 clinic weekly is $2000/year. $10k in 5 years, with zero improvement. Same garbage strokes.
Take that same $2000, and allocate it toward 40 private lessons, and you will see a true difference.

IMHO, group lessons/clinics are a horrendous waste of money, assuming you're trying to become a better player

The problem is Dunning Kruger.

And, people get bad coaching (or none at all) and do not even know it.

Ever clinic I've ever observed shows to me the players are going backwards in their development
by grooving broken strokes into muscle memory, with zero correction or drill.
Just amusing games for bored kids and grannies.

Pros don't take group clinics.
People buy their rackets and shoes, but then train nothing like pros.

The difference in private lessons is that you're drilling and isolating and doing the reps during the lesson.
I don't take lessons for "tips" That's idiotic after learning the basics.
Lessons are to do 100's of correct reps with live feedback!
So, you can take lessons and not do a lick of HW, and you will absolutely start to develop the right muscle memory.
That is assuming you have a decent coach.
Most coaches can't coach worth a **** since they do nothing but coach 2.0 level grannies and children all day.

This is the eternal debate I have in my head when I see people in groups/clinics.
On the one hand, your group kid is at least playing, so that's good.
On the other hand, he is developing junk mechanics, so he's going backwards.
Clinics only reinforce bad habits that will need to be broken later, if he ever gets serious.

The bottom line is that tennis is work. Very hard work.
Training a D1 bound colllege kid requires both: Playing, and playing correctly.
Very few people ever do both

Being in a clinic run by Federer himself is a total and complete waste of time.
You will walk out with no difference in your game. None. Zero. Zilch.

Tennis is not about "tips"
Tips are 1%.
If tips meant anything, everyone who ever watched a YouTube video would be a 5.0

The 99% is doing 100,000,000 correct reps.

Even an "advanced" 4.5+ clinic I attended was exactly that: Ball feed and keep score.
A paralyzed librarian could have run the clinic.

I think the only people who should do clinics are those who are already experts
and simply want a venue for hitting balls. For that, I'd call it "group drilling"
But, for anyone who is still developing strokes, clinics is a waste of their time and money.
No feedback. No stroke correction. No drilling correct reps.
Just reinforcing bad habits. Utility is either zero or negative.


When I see kids in clinics, I see them arming the ball with zero guidance, training, or feedback.
Just ball feeds and keeping track of score.
I think to myself, they are going backwards, if they ever intend on playing real tennis.

If you're enjoying it, you're doing it wrong.
You know why pros break down and cry when they win?
B/c of the blood, sweat, and tears they shed to get there.
Not because they had fun clinics with friends.
Want to be great at tennis?
You need to leave your friends and family and move into a tennis camp in Siberia.
Or Florida. LOL!
You are the Fred Phelps of TTW.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Here in europe there are alot of clay courts (true orange clay).

I tend to play quite alot on clay in the summer around 80% and around 20% on hard courts.

In the winter I tend to play around 85% on either indoor hard courts or indoor carpet courts and probably around 15% on indoor clay courts.

So I have good experience with both surfaces.

Clay courts vary amongst each other, as do hard courts and carpet courts... one clay court might be slow, while another quite faster, bounces also different...

But clay courts as a whole are still alot slower than hard courts yet alone carpet courts.

Its very hard to hit winners and aces on clay, the ball is much slower, but it does tend to bounce higher so topspin is much more useful.

Hard courts are much faster and the ball skids much more after bounce and bounces tend to be a bit lower than clay, tho not as much (depends on surface).

Carpet courts tend to be similar to hard courts in speed but the ball bounce is very low usually.

I tend to play best on hard courts, I like the bounce and the ball speed most, specially on those medium fast ones, slower hard courts are not that good anymore.

But its no suprize someone who plays alot on clay struggles on a hard court, because the ball speed is much faster.
 

Johnr

Rookie
My ignore list stalkers have no interest in tennis discussion, only trolling.
I think some might still be posting in my threads, a year after da blockage.
They are too simpleton to understand my writings, so that is why I have filtered them out of my TTW experience.
They have nothing to offer me. TTPS life tip: Always cut out dead weight from your life

I am here for one reason, and that is to discuss tennis development.
You do not have to agree with my experiences and observations.
I do know that I reached 4.0 in 2 seasons, and many posters DM me to thank me for my advice.

Well, 2 reasons.........also to discuss & purchase equipment
I have just ordered several packs of Cyclone 18 for a cross string for my Klip 16 gut or ZX mains.
First time I will try 159 rated co-Poly after my bout of TE last winter.
Soon you will be arguing/contradicting only yourself as you ignore list grows.
 
Soon you will be arguing/contradicting only yourself as you ignore list grows.
Soon, I will be back to talking about hard court vs. clay with one less troll in my feed.
Another useless clown goes on ignore.

@FiReFTW How do you alter your game when changing surfaces?
On hard, I was going for less even with my FH, since I felt the timing was off, and the court felt smaller.
 

Johnr

Rookie
Soon, I will be back to talking about hard court vs. clay with one less troll in my feed.
Another useless clown goes on ignore.

@FiReFTW How do you alter your game when changing surfaces?
On hard, I was going for less even with my FH, since I felt the timing was off, and the court felt smaller.
Such a little baby, you take your tennis balls and go home when called out. I hesitate to call you a troll as I don’t want to insult real trolls, but you are an unintentional troll.
 

Saul Goode

Semi-Pro
I play on clay 99% of the time.

Played on hard court and the opponent's serve felt like it was not bouncing.
I had to dig the ball out from my ankles.
I stood a lot closer to baseline, since the serve was not bouncing.
Is this the deal?

I also felt like I could never unload on a FH.
Timing just was not right. Something was off.
I have evolved to only crush FH when it's in the strike zone.
On hard court, ball was rarely in the strike zone.
Felt like I couldnt swing out
Not sure if it was the court or the opponent.
I've played same opponent on clay, and never had this issue.

What is the bounce like on hard court? Lower? higher?
in spite of all the diversion, the question remains. Did you figure it out, or is it still a mystery?
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
in spite of all the diversion, the question remains. Did you figure it out, or is it still a mystery?
What do you think? It took him 2 years to finally figure out that he was cinching up his butchered Parnell knot incorrectly!!! :rolleyes:

Most people figure it out in a few tries.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
in spite of all the diversion, the question remains. Did you figure it out, or is it still a mystery?
The answer is to get lessons on THE hard court with your D1 coach. Drill all strokes thousands of reps on THE hard court so you have the confidence to execute them under any condition. Well that is until you play a match on a different hard court that plays at a different speed than the first one. Then it’s back to square one. So you must drill all strokes for thousands of reps on every hard court in the world.
 

NastyWinners

Professional
The answer is to get lessons on THE hard court with your D1 coach. Drill all strokes thousands of reps on THE hard court so you have the confidence to execute them under any condition. Well that is until you play a match on a different hard court that plays at a different speed than the first one. Then it’s back to square one. So you must drill all strokes for thousands of reps on every hard court in the world.
You forgot pray harder than your opponent on THE hard court.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
I actually have the opposite problem. My level drop significantly on clay. I have no idea how to move and position myself on clay. Clay court rate in my area is $20 an hour. ain't spending money on that.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I actually have the opposite problem. My level drop significantly on clay. I have no idea how to move and position myself on clay. Clay court rate in my area is $20 an hour. ain't spending money on that.
A few years ago my coach bestowed upon some words of wisdom that have stuck with me and gotten me through some tough times on the court, "shut the **** up and hit the ball."

J
 

blablavla

Professional
I actually have the opposite problem. My level drop significantly on clay. I have no idea how to move and position myself on clay. Clay court rate in my area is $20 an hour. ain't spending money on that.
then you'll probably never become neither 3.0 nor 3.5
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
Played on hard court and the opponent's serve felt like it was not bouncing.
I had to dig the ball out from my ankles.
I stood a lot closer to baseline, since the serve was not bouncing.
Is this the deal?

I also felt like I could never unload on a FH.
Timing just was not right. Something was off.
Reminds me of playing a TTW memeber this summer on that synth grass and sand. Was so dang fast and almost no bounce. So different from the HC's and few clay courts I have played on - actually than either of us had played on. So the first set was a lot of trial and error, and we both kinda laughed about it. The key was to have much more focus on earlier prep and a conscious effort to use better footwork and not set as expected/normal. Our second set went much better and I started to embrace the surface more. It was fun and a HUGE challenge.

Basically, identify the change and move more.
 
Reminds me of playing a TTW memeber this summer on that synth grass and sand. Was so dang fast and almost no bounce. So different from the HC's and few clay courts I have played on - actually than either of us had played on. So the first set was a lot of trial and error, and we both kinda laughed about it. The key was to have much more focus on earlier prep and a conscious effort to use better footwork and not set as expected/normal. Our second set went much better and I started to embrace the surface more. It was fun and a HUGE challenge.

Basically, identify the change and move more.
Same here. The serves on a synth turf skid. Very hard to even get back in play. Glad it's not just my imagination.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
Same here. The serves on a synth turf skid. Very hard to even get back in play. Glad it's not just my imagination.

Surprise AZ hard courts I play on mostly are medium courts with a bit of grit, so decent bounce. When I was in Vegas last week with the other TTW folks, Darling hard court surface was slower and seemed very gritty to me, so I found myself at the start lerching forward for balls when they stopped shorter than expected. We talked about that a bit, but I had to focus more and use a bit more active footwork is all and everything was good.

One of the reasons I like to play leagues is that variety fo courts we get. Heck, one place had basketball conrete with a simple painted surface, and with a nice fine layer of dust. It was a slice fest becuase the ball would leave a skid more than twice the size of the balls. So slick.
 

NastyWinners

Professional
Surprise AZ hard courts I play on mostly are medium courts with a bit of grit, so decent bounce. When I was in Vegas last week with the other TTW folks, Darling hard court surface was slower and seemed very gritty to me, so I found myself at the start lerching forward for balls when they stopped shorter than expected. We talked about that a bit, but I had to focus more and use a bit more active footwork is all and everything was good.

One of the reasons I like to play leagues is that variety fo courts we get. Heck, one place had basketball conrete with a simple painted surface, and with a nice fine layer of dust. It was a slice fest becuase the ball would leave a skid more than twice the size of the balls. So slick.
Earlier this year for USTA we played at an old airplane hangar that was converted to an indoor facility. Courts were very slick and fast because of that fine layer of dust you spoke of. Actually was quite fun to play on as it rewarded my slice serve quite handsomely as well as my ability to hit the ball early off the bounce.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
A few years ago my coach bestowed upon some words of wisdom that have stuck with me and gotten me through some tough times on the court, "shut the **** up and hit the ball."

J
haha will do will do. words of wisdom.
then you'll probably never become neither 3.0 nor 3.5
Yup, you are definitely right. Not anytime soon. Because i am computer rated at 4.0.
 

norcal

Hall of Fame
Actually, yes, he is. Here’s more proof.

1. He really believed that topspin makes the ball go into the net.
2. He couldn’t figure out how to open a set of strings without ending up with a bird’s nest tangled mess that required 30 mins to unravel.
3. Because he couldn’t string a racquet in under 2 hours, anyone who claimed they could do it in 20 mins was a liar.
4. In cinching up a Parnell knot, he pulled the first loop tight, then took an awl to struggle to reopen the knot he just cinched up tight to slip the tail of the string through for the second loop. And he continued to do this for almost a year before he shared what he was doing on the stringing forum at which point a few patient members kindly pointed out he was tying the knot incorrectly. Of course he told them they had zero idea what they were talking about because he was too dense to understand their instructions. Finally he blamed his incorrect method of cinching the knot on an step by step instructional video created by a a very good professional stringer which he admitted to watching with the sound muted. To this day, he blames the video for his incorrect knot.

And there are many, many more examples. :-D
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I dont have problems and prefer hard court and also indoor carpet which is fast with a low bounce.

Whats the secret? Simple, I play alot on that surface lol.

The only magic solution to everything u want to get good at is to do that thing and keep doing it.
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
Exactly.

He had a flat serve that would skid. All I could do was block them back. Adult 4.0 can put away any short ball. Strong service games.
I had to wait for that flat serve to stop working, and then I took control of the match.

So, if HC does not bounce as much, I think I will stop using a kick 2nd, and switch to a slice 2nd.
Maybe I will slice more in general on HC. Use the low bounce to my advantage
Slice is very effective on HC for that reason. I love when I hit a low hard slice and the opponent just sort of flails at it because, as you said, it just doens't come up.

You ever play on grass? Even more so.
 

Born_to_slice

Professional
Hard is in most cases faster so that's why your timing is off. Bounce is lower and you can't slide like you do on clay. Even on pro tour, not all players can execute their games equally on all surfaces. If you only played on clay so far, it's normal that you feel uneasy on HC, at least until you put some hours into it..
 

Morch Us

Semi-Pro
Mindless bashers like "Roger Federer" likes hard courts(or grass which is even faster).
Extreme pushers like "Rafa Nadal" likes clay.
And then there are the pusher+basher counter-punchers like Djokovic who likes both.

I just borrowed the words from TTPS :)

It is a known fact that clay is slower, and requires more pattern based game since it is hard to get a single point finishing shot, and what you did in the last 3 or 4 shots does matter more. In faster courts (grass or hardcourt), aggressive point finishing shots has higher rewards, and so a lot of the times it only matters what you did on last 1 or 2 shots.

But you can tune your style of play better and still play good in all surfaces. Which means you can actually get good at playing mainly pattern based play in hardcourts, and can get good at aggressive style play in clay courts.

I've played same opponent on clay, and never had this issue.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Mindless bashers like "Roger Federer" likes hard courts(or grass which is even faster).
Extreme pushers like "Rafa Nadal" likes clay.
And then there are the pusher+basher counter-punchers like Djokovic who likes both.

I just borrowed the words from TTPS :)

It is a known fact that clay is slower, and requires more pattern based game since it is hard to get a single point finishing shot, and what you did in the last 3 or 4 shots does matter more. In faster courts (grass or hardcourt), aggressive point finishing shots has higher rewards, and so a lot of the times it only matters what you did on last 1 or 2 shots.

But you can tune your style of play better and still play good in all surfaces. Which means you can actually get good at playing mainly pattern based play in hardcourts, and can get good at aggressive style play in clay courts.
Yes faster courts for the win!

Clay makes it hard to hit winners and get aces, you have to go for more in order to get enough penetration through the court which makes consistency harder.
 

Badmrfrosty

Rookie
This is my favorite TTPS and when I realized he is delusional narcissist..... What world is he living in? "Human Sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria. 3.0s who look like 4.5"

Strokes have little to do with rating.

I know 4.0 players who look like 3.0
I know 3.0 players who look like 4.5

I think a 4.5 will attack your BH.
Your arms are totally jammed against your body.

Play some matches.
That is the only way to get a sense of your level.
 

MAX PLY

Hall of Fame
I think TTPS was severely injured in a racquet stringing accident. He was pre-stretching a set of string using an anvil, a large safe and a pulley. Now picture Wile E. Coyote.

I’m sure he’ll be back soon.
 
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