SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ They? The official call was not based on this angle.
Was it a foot fault?
- Thread starter firstblud
- Start date
Huh? So tennis games in future don't need rules. Just call the match with common sense? :shock:
Tchocky
Hall of Fame
Can't really tell from the video. I guess Serena really did foot fault otherwise she wouldn't have been called on it. This is the problem for players who move their back foot when they serve. Players like Federer, Djokovic, Sampras & Agassi never get called for foot faulting because they don't move their feet before contact. But I really hate this rule. Unless, it's really egregious, they shouldn't call it. The lineswoman couldn't have picked a worse time to make that call. Very unfortunate.
I was referring to the American TV stations... I know calls aren't made based on videos...
cucio
Legend
Regarding these situations being unusual: not so long ago, Safin-Federer, AO'09 3rd round match, 3rd set tie-break. At 2:24 in the video a FF is called against Marat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2xswVuNr0
While rules are rules and all that, as things stand now as a spectator I'd rather not have these faults called, anything that brings the focus onto officiating rather than playing is fugly. Anyway, some review system would be nice so players learn not to lose concentration in these situations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2xswVuNr0
While rules are rules and all that, as things stand now as a spectator I'd rather not have these faults called, anything that brings the focus onto officiating rather than playing is fugly. Anyway, some review system would be nice so players learn not to lose concentration in these situations.
CashDudeHomie
Rookie
No high res pics from the sidelines yet?
And no poll option for "inconclusive?"
Serena foot faults all the time, and I see no reason to doubt the line judge's call here. Feet are MUCH easier to see than a fast moving ball, and they get close line calls within 2mm correct over 80% of the time.
I am all for enforcing the rules on every point, whether the first point of the match or a crucial final one. The argument that it should not have been called on a crucial point is ridiculous.
Would you say "Oh the ball was barely out but this is a crucial point, so I will just call it in?" It's the same with the feet.
However, I would not be surprised if they upgrade Hawkeye to track players' shoes within a few years for challenging foot faults.
And no poll option for "inconclusive?"
Serena foot faults all the time, and I see no reason to doubt the line judge's call here. Feet are MUCH easier to see than a fast moving ball, and they get close line calls within 2mm correct over 80% of the time.
I am all for enforcing the rules on every point, whether the first point of the match or a crucial final one. The argument that it should not have been called on a crucial point is ridiculous.
Would you say "Oh the ball was barely out but this is a crucial point, so I will just call it in?" It's the same with the feet.
However, I would not be surprised if they upgrade Hawkeye to track players' shoes within a few years for challenging foot faults.
hellonewbie
Rookie
All line calls are part of officiating, what's so different about foot-fault calls? The focus is not on the officiating, it's on Serena's behavior.
CashDudeHomie
Rookie
Actually, this thread is called "Was it a foot fault?"
Which is why I anxiously await pics that conclusively show that it was. There was so many cameras out there, so someone had to get a shot of it.
I hope today the pics begin to surface.
Which is why I anxiously await pics that conclusively show that it was. There was so many cameras out there, so someone had to get a shot of it.
I hope today the pics begin to surface.
gpt
Professional
Who cares?
It makes no difference whether it was a foot fault or not.
Either way, nothing will excuse her actions or her failure to acknowledge her inappropriate behaviour in the after match press conference.
Trying to convince everyone that she forgot what she said to the line judge was pathetic.
If a hi res view of the serve shows that it wasn't a foot fault, it should be given zero consideration when deciding on what penalty she should incur.
It makes no difference whether it was a foot fault or not.
Either way, nothing will excuse her actions or her failure to acknowledge her inappropriate behaviour in the after match press conference.
Trying to convince everyone that she forgot what she said to the line judge was pathetic.
If a hi res view of the serve shows that it wasn't a foot fault, it should be given zero consideration when deciding on what penalty she should incur.
CashDudeHomie
Rookie
Just found this quote from an interview:
"I'm pretty sure I did. If she called a foot fault, she must have seen a foot fault."
Source: http://ballhype.com/story/i-m-pretty-sure-i-did-if-she-called-a-foot-fault-she/
---
And you idiots saying it doesn't matter if it was a foot fault need to go to another thread. This thread is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT IF IT WAS A FOOT FAULT! There are 10 other threads to discuss her behavior and further punishment.
"I'm pretty sure I did. If she called a foot fault, she must have seen a foot fault."
Source: http://ballhype.com/story/i-m-pretty-sure-i-did-if-she-called-a-foot-fault-she/
---
And you idiots saying it doesn't matter if it was a foot fault need to go to another thread. This thread is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT IF IT WAS A FOOT FAULT! There are 10 other threads to discuss her behavior and further punishment.
James Bond
Semi-Pro
What did Williams say exactly?
What is the "kill you" line or the "ball" line? or both?
What is the "kill you" line or the "ball" line? or both?
Regarding the foot fault discussion it`s pretty interesting to see that most of the time a foot fault is called it happens on a big point in the match.It was here the case,for Safin it happened 3 times the last few years(once this year in a tiebreaker against Federer in Australia and last year at the Us Open) and also for Hewitt a couple of years back.I doubt that the line judge would call a foot fault if that`s what happened here at the first point of the match.
What happened there is history.Serena deserved the point penalty for swearing to the linesjudge but if it happened to Safin or someone else with that temper it would be the same result
What happened there is history.Serena deserved the point penalty for swearing to the linesjudge but if it happened to Safin or someone else with that temper it would be the same result
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
Read My Lips: Yes. She Foot Faulted.
Supernatural_Serve
Professional
We all know the difference between the rule book and the the interpretation in a given moment.
Watch the NBA or the NFL and notice how disinclined anyone is to call "contact" on a game determining point, or a pass in the end zone, which technically according to the book is a foul or penalty.
We will have to disagree, but something tells me if a referee makes a game determining call over something at petty as an incidental contact with the service line, you will go crazy, especially if you have money riding on that football, baseball, or basketball game.
Supernatural_Serve
Professional
No. I believe that its the lines judge's discretion and that discretion should be informed by principles which include allowing the players to play and not inserting themselves into match determining points.so is that the way you'd change the rulebook to read?
only call a foot fault under the following conditions? :?:
We all know that in tennis, not all points are equal.
The first point of the match is not the same as a match point.
If you can't understand that basic concept, I don't know what to say. We witness these principles at work in football, baseball, basketball all the time and nobody claims bias when the referees decide to let the players play and not allow themselves to determine victory, for example, when someone throws a hail mary pass into the endzone and several people go for the ball and of course someone bangs into someone making it impossible for them to catch the ball. Nobody throws an interference flag which would place that ball from 60 yards away onto the 1 one yard line. From nowhere, to suddenly in chip shot field goal position. That referee just determined the winner of the game and people would be outraged.
Except you.
Holding your rule book.
chess9
Hall of Fame
As most of the top linespeople know, foot faults are rarely called and the linespeople are generous to a FAULT. 
If you are called for a foot fault, you are likely to have foot faulted. Also, the linespeople know this is all on tape, so they do their very best to only call an obvious foot fault. When in doubt the foot is out.
-Robert
If you are called for a foot fault, you are likely to have foot faulted. Also, the linespeople know this is all on tape, so they do their very best to only call an obvious foot fault. When in doubt the foot is out. -Robert
serve and Justin
New User
if the linesperson called it a fault...it was...end of story.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Arbitrary enforcement?
Supernatural_Serve
Professional
Its called informed discretion. Nobody is recommending arbitrary anything.
My position on the issue is not arbitrary, its about match determining points.
Those aren't arbitrary cases.
chess9
Hall of Fame
Well, whether the foot fault call was right or wrong, we all accept that errors will be made by linespeople. We all accept that the game cannot be called perfectly. Right? If you don't accept those premises, then you shouldn't be playing tennis at the professional level.
Furthermore, even if the call was in error, Serena's conduct was wretched. She should be fined and suspended.
-Robert
Furthermore, even if the call was in error, Serena's conduct was wretched. She should be fined and suspended.
-Robert
chess9
Hall of Fame
But, just how far over the line is it ok to go on match point?
Should they have let Serena step up to the Service Line and get a good hit in?Your position is really absurd, Steve, with all due respect to your considerable knowledge of the game.
-Robert
JankovicFan
Semi-Pro
This discussion won't be productive, unless we separate the line call versus Serena's reaction. Serena doesn't know whether it was a foot fault or not. She was busy watching the ball. So how does she get off behaving so badly? Sure, We would all feel better if the foot fault was easier to judge on video.
What I think should happen is a better replay system for foot faults, but that call is not the real issue here.
What I think should happen is a better replay system for foot faults, but that call is not the real issue here.
chess9
Hall of Fame
It happens on these points because the players' minds have been tortured for hours and they become unglued. If you have ever played in the final of a large tournament you will understand. Your head is about to explode. Your racquet weighs a 100 pounds. Your flesh is all goose bumpy. You lose control of your body...almost.
-Robert
Monsieur_DeLarge
Semi-Pro
I can't tell from the video whether or not it was a foot-fault, but am happy to assume that the call was correct, as I routinely do. As for whether or not this has been done before, aside from the Safin-Federer match posted above, here's two more examples:
As an aside, can I offer a hypothetical but plausible scenario for why this call was made? Note: this is entirely speculative. I didn't see the match and I've no idea what happened earlier in the game. But here it is:
Serena has begun getting closer to the line on her second serve as the match progresses, and in this vital game she starts foot-faulting regularly. Initially the line judge shows discretion, as some here have recommended she should, but by 15-30 it's getting really bad from her perspective. She doesn't want to be in the position of having to call (or ignore) a really obvious foot-fault on match point, so decides to call it now, thereby giving Serena time to fix the error before the really critical point.
- Safin vs Tursunov, 1st round Cincinnati; Safin is foot-faulted on his second serve at 6-7 4-4, 30-30, having been foot-faulted earlier.
- Witten vs Etchagaray, Dallas Challenger; Etchagaray is foot-faulted on his second serve at match point down.
As an aside, can I offer a hypothetical but plausible scenario for why this call was made? Note: this is entirely speculative. I didn't see the match and I've no idea what happened earlier in the game. But here it is:
Serena has begun getting closer to the line on her second serve as the match progresses, and in this vital game she starts foot-faulting regularly. Initially the line judge shows discretion, as some here have recommended she should, but by 15-30 it's getting really bad from her perspective. She doesn't want to be in the position of having to call (or ignore) a really obvious foot-fault on match point, so decides to call it now, thereby giving Serena time to fix the error before the really critical point.
CashDudeHomie
Rookie
Look, tennis is about self control and mental strength, especially on crucial points. Serena was feeling the pressure and pivoted her foot (which she does not normally do), putting the side of her foot on the line.
chess9
Hall of Fame
carlos djackal
Professional
the poll result says it all..........
Hahaha, I remember watching that challenger melt-down. Awesome.
Notice how Safin argues with the head ump, and rather than verbally berating him, questions whether there is an objective way to determine whether the call is correct (hawkeye) vs. going only on the subjective perception of the line judge. He is clearly mad, but he's not becoming belligerent, and he's not mentally shutting down and spraying meaningless profanity (not to mention making threats while waving a racquet and stepping towards a line judge, although it does look like he said something quickly at one point).
Serena deserved what she got, and her actions are despicable on multiple facets. Threatening a line judge? Letting out a stream of profanity on live TV with children watching and perhaps even there live? Doing this all knowing that it is match point, and that you could completely deflate the winner and not have to "lose" the match? Disgusting.
On the topic of foot faulting, I am surprised there are so many people who would consider ignoring a rule violation, no matter how slight. They have rules for a reason. You don't selectively enforce them. Particularly when you have the resources to monitor them.
Good analysis on that last paragraph as well. Seems very plausible.
Bud
Bionic Poster
Agreed. I would like to see it in closer detail as well.
charliefedererer
Legend
Watching the video, I'm convinced it was a foot fault (although the camera angle can't prove it without any doubt at all). The official was right on the line and reflexively yells "foot fault" instantly. There was no pause. No reflection. No concern for the moment. There was only the instant call as she had been trained to do. If there was a good camera angle (whatever happened to the Mac cam?), there would be even better confirmation she made the "correct" call.
NineMileSkid
Rookie
Shoud a barely out serve be called a faut in this curcumstance?
kanamit
Hall of Fame
And where exactly is your proof that foot faults have occurred at critical points in key matches and the linesperson just ignored it? Or are you just making things up?
Bud
Bionic Poster
charliefedererer
Legend
Good analogy.
On a ball that is 99.99% out, and with a technology that acknowledges an average error of .14 inches, if the ball is in by only one pixel, it's "in" by the rules.
It's interesting how we have all been conditioned to trust machines more than people.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/wimbledon08/news/story?id=3452293
Well the video shows that clearly there is no way you can actually determine in real time whether Serena Williams foot faulted or not. What people are saying is this :
If it is a questionable call in which there is no way the line judge could have been sure to say that Serena foot faulted, than she shouldn't have called it. It was a match point, where there is no way that a line judge from a distance, in real time, could have clearly saw whether or not Serena foot faulted or not.
Bud
Bionic Poster
Bingo! That's what many have been pointing out. I'd like to see clear pics or video of the FF.
kanamit
Hall of Fame
So because after watching a video of Serena's serve from an oblique angle you can't determine with certainty whether Serena footfaulted, then the linesjudge, who had a much better angle, could not have been able to determine for certain whether Serena footfaulted? Why do you think the line judge would call a footfault in this situation if she wasn't absolutely certain that a footfault occurred? Was she a Serena hater?
Beacon Hill
Hall of Fame
I can't stand Serena, but one thing I do admire about her is that she plays fair. My comments have nothing to do with my disdain for her. If someone clearly foot faults, they get called for it. I don't know why you think otherwise. There is a linesperson looking for that call. Do you really think that it linesperson school, they tell you not to make calls depending on the importance of the match and who is playing? You are dreaming if you think they can control the thousands of the linespeople to that extent.
What I'm saying is that I know for sure, from the line judge's point of view (from where she is sitting) there is no way she 100% guaranteed knew that it was a foot fault, especially considering from all videos, pictures, etc. shown so far that it is very, very, very questionable whether or not she foot faulted.
Do realize that from her point of view, everything is moving at normal speed (which is pretty fast mind you). On a match point, if I'm not 100% sure that the player indeed did footfault, then I'm not going to call it. The lines people, umpires, etc. all have brains you know. There is a reason why umpires do not overrule late into a set, nor do lines people call close balls out during important points. I have seen this happen all the time.
This happens in ALOT of sports. For example, in basketball, referees do not call falls unless they are sure that it happened, or it was utterly blatant. Soccer officials during a very close match down the stretch are inclined not to make calls, give it cards, etc. if the foul was not blatant or obvious. This happens in alot of sports. I know for a FACT there's no way that lines person knew for sure Serena Williams foot faulted. I have been a lines person for a few tennis matches around my area too.
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When is it ok for a linesperson to call a foot-fault?
Some here have commented that the linesperson should not have called foot-fault at 15-30 with Serena down 4-6, 5-6. If we accept this premise, then here are some possible outcomes.
Calling a foot-fault at 0-40, 15-40, 30-40 or Ad-out hands over the game to the returner and thus adversely impacts the match. So, ban them.
Calling it at 0-15, 0-30, 15-30 increases the returner's advantage in the game. So, they are out.
Calling it at 0-0, 15-15, 30-30, Deuce lets the returner get ahead in the game. Void them, too.
Calling it at 15-0, 30-15, 40-30, Ad-in lets the returner catch up with the server. So, they should not be called.
So, that only leaves out 30-0, 40-0 and 40-15, keeping the server at least one point ahead in the game. In light of yesterday's episode, I hope the tennis associations amend the rule as above and instruct all linespersons to call them only at these three game situations.
Some here have commented that the linesperson should not have called foot-fault at 15-30 with Serena down 4-6, 5-6. If we accept this premise, then here are some possible outcomes.
Calling a foot-fault at 0-40, 15-40, 30-40 or Ad-out hands over the game to the returner and thus adversely impacts the match. So, ban them.
Calling it at 0-15, 0-30, 15-30 increases the returner's advantage in the game. So, they are out.
Calling it at 0-0, 15-15, 30-30, Deuce lets the returner get ahead in the game. Void them, too.
Calling it at 15-0, 30-15, 40-30, Ad-in lets the returner catch up with the server. So, they should not be called.
So, that only leaves out 30-0, 40-0 and 40-15, keeping the server at least one point ahead in the game. In light of yesterday's episode, I hope the tennis associations amend the rule as above and instruct all linespersons to call them only at these three game situations.
film1
Semi-Pro
I have watched a lot of matches this year and McEnroe has been wrong a lot of times on his questions of calls. He is quick to pop off and wrong a lot of the time.
You could put a high light reel together of his being clearly in the wrong this year alone. Serena is smart and knew what she did wrong.
What I want to know is with all the cameras out there why they kept showing one angle? What's up with that?
Beacon Hill
Hall of Fame
Your assertion that foot faults should not be called unless you are serving and volleying is ridiculous. There are boundaries to the court. And rules governing the players. Period. For some reason some posters believe that a foot fault is not a real rule, but just a guideline. That is not true. Do you believe the same should apply for contacting the net, just barely contacting it is OK? Or just barely hitting it out? Or just barely having the ball hit a part of your body? Rules called less frequently than others are still rules.
kanamit
Hall of Fame
You have no idea what the linesjudge was able to see or not to see because you didn't have her angle. Also you conveniently forgot to explain why a linesjudge, with a brain as you so emphatically put it, would call a footfault on such a key moment if she weren't absolutely positive? Do you think she likes negative attention and controversy? Did she have a vendetta against Serena Williams? Or maybe, just maybe, she was certain that a foot fault occurred.
And I don't agree with your nonsense about bending rules. If rules aren't enforced in the key moments, then there's no point in having the rules.
To be fair, I've seen it called twice against Safin alone just this year. It's very common...it just doesn't always get televised as prominently.
W
woodrow1029
Guest
The line umpire had the only good view of it. I haven't seen a video on the line yet. She is the only one with a good view.
No foot fault. Serena was already on her toes when her forward body motion slightly rotated her foot. Her heel may have crossed the line but did not touch the ground at any point and she continued pushing off from her toes. Therefore at no point was any part of her foot touched the line or the inside of the court.
The weight transfer is just incorrect for a player's service motion to have already transferred the body weight to the toes and then fall back to the heel and then rock back to the toes again to push off.
P.S. I'm no Serena fan and she shouldn't have done what she've done but it was a bad line call which started the whole thing off in the 1st place. At such a critical stage of the game, the caller has to be 100% certain that it is a fault before calling. This situation is no 100% clear cut.
The weight transfer is just incorrect for a player's service motion to have already transferred the body weight to the toes and then fall back to the heel and then rock back to the toes again to push off.
P.S. I'm no Serena fan and she shouldn't have done what she've done but it was a bad line call which started the whole thing off in the 1st place. At such a critical stage of the game, the caller has to be 100% certain that it is a fault before calling. This situation is no 100% clear cut.
