GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Another expert in time travel tennis that can’t predict actual matches!
Was Nadal unlucky to have a precociously early grass prime/peak?
RS
Bionic Poster
The Fedfather
Legend
Implying that 5-set matches with scores like 6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 6-0 in the last sets are matches Nadal should've lost is pure lol. That much funnier coming from a Djokovic fan. Doesn't Novak have the most wins in 5 sets? I wonder when that cosmic justice is going to hit.Nadal always had his struggles on grass throughout his career. Even when he reached the late rounds, he would have his fair share of tough matches in early rounds when the grass was still slick:
2006 (F): 2R vs Robert Kendrick: 6-7, 3-6, 7-6, 7-5, 6-4
2007 (F): 2R vs Soderling: 6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 4-6, 7-5; 3R vs Youzhny: 4-6, 3-6, 6-1, 6-2, 6-2
2008 (W): -
2010 (W): 2R vs Haase: 5-7, 6-2, 3-6, 6-0, 6-3; 3R vs Petzschner: 6-4, 4-6, 6-7, 6-2, 6-3
As the tournament progresses, the grass gets worn down and the court slows down more and more, enabling Nadal to play his game with greater efficacy
The 2012-17 period was a cosmic correction of sorts, where Nadal actually lost the matches he should have lost earlier:
Nadal owned Djokovic at slams until the final of Wimbledon 2011 so Murray would be just as likely to brush him aside
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I will not contest that.
I believe the Wimbledons he's won are also a cosmic correction of sorts for his USO record. It's quite incredible that he's only won 3 USO titles
jl809
Legend
Agreed, and so my question is, would those 2 Wimbledons be looked on more favourably if they were won closer to the present day, and if they involved beating prime Djoker (say in 2013)
One of the big arguments used against Nadal IRL is that he hasn’t won Wimbledon or beaten Djokovic or Federer on grass in over 13 years
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I think the main argument against Nadal at WB (relative to the other Big 3) is the amount of tourneys won, not the timing
No its 5 year prime followed by 5 year non prime then back to 5 year prime...
Lol
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Maybe they would. Although then people would just argue the other way that he could only win when he has a bit older. I personally don’t see a difference if he won in 2014 instead of 2010.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
Djokovic became a much better player in 2011 than before and turned things around beating Nadal in 3 different slam finals and 7 matches in a row. Murray never made something similar so I don't see why I would think he'd be the favorite vs Nadal unless it was specific circumstances like in 2015/2016 when he was peaking and Nadal was in a slump.
abmk
Bionic Poster
yeah, right. I mean matchup adv vs the greatest grass court player of all time meant automatic 5-setters vs him - which no one in fed's prime had done before.
. which prime djokovic and Murray couldn't do vs past-prime/prime-ish fed in Wim 12.3 wins for Nadal vs Murray (Wim 08, Wim 10, Wim 11), including a destruction, a straight-setter and another 4-set win while prime Djokovic is 0-2 in matches and 0-5 in sets means nothing.
I remember that Djokovic in his 20s at Wimbledon lost to lets see: nadal (retired), Safin, Haas, Berdych, Federer, Murray, Querrey. 7 losses in 10 out of which ZERO of them went to 5 sets - 3 of them were straight-setters and 4 of them were 4-setters/him taking a set.
We also had Djoko's pre-SF struggles vs Baggy/Tomic in Wim 11, Stepanek/Cilic in Wim 14, Anderson in Wim 15. ****
clearly benefitted from slow down and more consistent bouncing grass.
Clearly suggest Djokovic was a really good grass player, but not on the level of the greats.
**** (equating to federer in early rounds at WImbledon at prime is a joke - federer had zero struggles in 1R-QF at Wim from 03-09 at his prime - ZERO, heck, guy didn't lose a set in the SF of Wim from 03-09)
RS
Bionic Poster
Nadal Wim 08 vs Fed Wim 09 20 match series?
Fed Wim 09 vs Djokovic Wim 15 20 match series?
RS
Bionic Poster
12-8/6-4 2nd?
abmk
Bionic Poster
but hey you are not sorry for tennis fans about the darkness of the inflation era that has been going on for like 7 years (2016-2022) because it helps your boy Djoko, right?
Djoko fandom > the game of tennis, no?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
What was the mo that Fed fans liked to go to 7 years ago? 17 > 14 > 12?yeah, right. I mean matchup adv vs the greatest grass court player of all time meant automatic 5-setters vs him - which no one in fed's prime had done before.
3 wins for Nadal vs Murray (Wim 08, Wim 10, Wim 11), including a destruction, a straight-setter and another 4-set win while prime Djokovic is 0-2 in matches and 0-5 in sets means nothing.
I remember that Djokovic in his 20s at Wimbledon lost to lets see: nadal (retired), Safin, Haas, Berdych, Federer, Murray, Querrey. 7 losses in 10 out of which ZERO of them went to 5 sets - 3 of them were straight-setters and 4 of them were 4-setters/him taking a set.
We also had Djoko's pre-SF struggles vs Baggy/Tomic in Wim 11, Stepanek/Cilic in Wim 14, Anderson in Wim 15. ****
clearly benefitted from slow down and more consistent bouncing grass.
Clearly suggest Djokovic was a really good grass player, but not on the level of the greats.
**** (equating to federer in early rounds at WImbledon at prime is a joke - federer had zero struggles in 1R-QF at Wim from 03-09 at his prime - ZERO, heck, guy didn't lose a set in the SF of Wim from 03-09)
Well now it's 8 > 7 >>>> 2. Boost up Nadal at all costs and all you like to make Federer's competition look much better to help yourself deal with what actually happened, which you are struggling to do. Do whatever it takes to make Djokovic's look worse as well. Be happy 2020 Wimbledon was canceled. Remember, you're the one who said Djokovic would never reach 21 and laughed at the prospect. I can see you're no longer laughing.
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RS
Bionic Poster
20 17 12 not 14What was the mo that Fed fans liked to go to 7 years ago? 20 > 14 > 12?
Well now it's 8 > 7 >>>>> 2. Boost of up Nadal at all costs and all you like to make Federer's competition look much better to help yourself deal with what actually happened, which you are struggling to do. Do whatever it takes to make Djokovic's look worse as well. Be happy 2020 Wimbledon was canceled. Remember, you're the one who said Djokovic would never reach 21 and laughed at prospect. I can see you're no longer laughing.
Or 17 14 12 back pre 2017
RS
Bionic Poster
See my edit
abmk
Bionic Poster
What was the mo that Fed fans liked to go to 7 years ago? 20 > 14 > 12?
Well now it's 8 > 7 >>>> 2. Boost of up Nadal at all costs and all you like to make Federer's competition look much better to help yourself deal with what actually happened, which you are struggling to do. Do whatever it takes to make Djokovic's look worse as well. Be happy 2020 Wimbledon was canceled. Remember, you're the one who said Djokovic would never reach 21 and laughed at prospect. I can see you're no longer laughing.
nope, I've always talked about context and proper analysis.
But hey, since you couldn't address the actual points (djokovic's 7/10 losses in 20s, none of them 5-setters; nadal dominating Murray on grass, djoko being dominated by Murray on grass; djokovic benefitting from modern grass), and don't have the guts to admit the reality about actual levels, you will try to divert.
RS
Bionic Poster
TBH it's not a 5 slam gap yet with Djok vs Fed
abmk
Bionic Poster
Rosol kinda loss, yes.
Darcis - no way.
But if we are taking their 6 best years (for Nadal and djoko ), not a big difference:
Nadal always had his struggles on grass throughout his career. Even when he reached the late rounds, he would have his fair share of tough matches in early rounds when the grass was still slick:
2006 (F): 2R vs Robert Kendrick: 6-7, 3-6, 7-6, 7-5, 6-4
2007 (F): 2R vs Soderling: 6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 4-6, 7-5; 3R vs Youzhny: 4-6, 3-6, 6-1, 6-2, 6-2
2008 (W): -
2010 (W): 2R vs Haase: 5-7, 6-2, 3-6, 6-0, 6-3; 3R vs Petzschner: 6-4, 4-6, 6-7, 6-2, 6-3
As the tournament progresses, the grass gets worn down and the court slows down more and more, enabling Nadal to play his game with greater efficacy
The 2012-17 period was a cosmic correction of sorts, where Nadal actually lost the matches he should have lost earlier:
Well said. Nadal' grass prime didn't suddenly end in 2011. It's just his luck which ran out. He should have lost in early rounds at least once during 2006-11. Too many close matches. And he should have gone deep at least once during 2012-17. He played very well in 2014/17 editions. Even I believe he would have gone deep had he escaped Rosol.
RS
Bionic Poster
Would you say it's more defensible to call Fed greater than Djokovic now than Djokovic greater than Fed in 2016 though?
He played bad in 2013 but he was still in his prime. It was one of his most dominant years. It's just he is not equally versatile as other two.
RS
Bionic Poster
What's Wim 06/11 Nadal's chances vs Wim 18 Djokovic? Or Wim 12 SF/Wim 13 pre final Djok
RS
Bionic Poster
You didn't get it?
Trying to ask is there more a case for Fed being over Djokovic now behind by 1 slam than Djokovic over Fed pre 2016 when the latter had 5 more slams. Because even if 2016 some Djokovic fans may have still felt he was better than Fed.
The Fedfather
Legend
There isn't much you could contest. It was a ridiculous argument to try and lessen prime Nadal's quality on grass because he played a couple 5-set matches in earlier rounds, most of which he was winning comfortably in the end.
Djokovic was a point away from having 2 USO titles. And I think only one final he lost at the USO went to 5 sets. Why is the cosmic correction for Nadal struggling a little on grass is for him to lose more, but the cosmic correction for Djokovic always struggling in the USO finals is for him to win more? It's a rhetorical question. There's no cosmic correction for anything. Nadal's prime on grass was just short-lived because once his speed on the baseline declined, he became that much more vulnerable on faster grass as his rallying quality was the biggest advantage he had, given lack of spectacular serve or return to rely on.
RS
Bionic Poster
abmk
Bionic Poster
Nadal was in his prime in general in 2013. But my point is Darcis kinda loss wouldn't have happened to Nadal at Wim from 2006-11. Darcis just ain't threatning enough.
shouldn't forget nadal hit his grass court prime early in 2006 (2 years earlier than corresponding for fed in 2003 and 4 years earlier than corresponding for djoko in 2011)
I don't think nadal is as versatile as djokovic, let alone federer. But for that, we'd have to look at indoor HC more so than grass, IMO.
nadal's peak at Wim 07/08 remains his 2nd best at at a slam after RG (over USO and AO). Wim 10 a little below Wim 07/08.
RS
Bionic Poster
Was just trying to see where you stood. Because even in 2016 some Djokovic fans thought he was the greatest.
Even further back than that in the rare case
Darcis kind - I mean loss to lower ranked player. He had any tight matches against nobodies in his so called grass prime as well.
abmk
Bionic Poster
not that shortlived. Nadal did make 5 Wim finals in 2006-11.
Also did make the semis in 18/19 (2nd best player in Wim 18) after that. so some credit for that as well. would've been worse if he hadn't done that.
abmk
Bionic Poster
ok, got it.
But my point was all of them had weapons - Kendrick with SnV, haase/petz - big serving/hitting.
darcis didn't.
Rosol did.
Hence why I said Rosol type loss was possible, but not Darcis.
The Fedfather
Legend
Yep. I guess I meant to say comparatively short-lived, but that comparison would be the the very best grass courters, so you're right
RS
Bionic Poster
I guess. I think some though the BOAT + competition though if not numbers.
Back then I saw posts elsewhere in that 15/16 time period than if Djok reached 14-15 then his strongest competition would put him above Fed and Nadal even overall
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