Was this Novak's own 40-15 ?

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
In the biggest match of his life, against a player he totally dominated at the same stage 7 months ago, Novak played strangely subdued and never produced his best when it mattered the most.

There was no killer instinct, no drama and no swagger.

The mental giant who silences the crowds had no answer when he couldn't play the role of the underdog.

Whether he recovers or not is very much a question mark; one thing seems certain; he'll never get a second chance at grand slam in his career.
 

Mark-Touch

Hall of Fame
In the biggest match of his life, against a player he totally dominated at the same stage 7 months ago, Novak played strangely subdued and never produced his best when it mattered the most.

There was no killer instinct, no drama and no swagger.

The mental giant who silences the crowds had no answer when he couldn't play the role of the underdog.

Whether he recovers or not is very much a question mark; one thing seems certain; he'll never get a second chance at grand slam in his career.
Funny I had asked in another thread:
"How many grand slams do you think Djoker has in him now?"

As for no drama no swagger...
Did anybody notice him dancing around nervously for the first time ever during the match?
 

Rudiiii

Rookie
I mean,this is more repeat of USO 2012,2013,2014,2019,2020, another wasted chance to distance him from others.I mean, you can't compare Fed loosing already won match to loose in straight sets. Some more losses: RG 2013,2015;Wimbly 2012,2020(not organised). Only at AO I think he had really successful years, with no real choke.OFC I mean after 2011,as that eas the year Djoker matured
 

Rudiiii

Rookie
I don't know. They both choked away 21, but Djoker also choked away a CYGS. Strong argument that it's a bigger choke, and yes, you can choke away a match from the opening serve.
Yeah, i completed my comment. IMO these are all GS's Nole choked, if you think there are more feel free to write.OFC these are some i could remember instantly
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
He didn't choke. He was just gassed and therefore dominated by the fresher player from beginning to end. Not a choke though like 40-15erererer. This is more like a Sampras 2001 US Open moment. Getting through a tough draw but playing the peaking fresher player a decade younger with no legs for the finals
Yes. In fact this strongly evoked 2000 for me. When Sampras had won Wimbledon and was still regarded as invincible and then Safin turned up in the final.
 

Kralingen

Legend
How so? Medvedev was just the better player today. How is that embarassing?
Federer was 38 and simply played 2 points wrong. Almost no one would’ve thought he could get to that point.

Djokovic played 2.5 hours of tennis wrong. Got destroyed in straight sets with the entire world watching and let the greatest opportunity of his career go, with basically a whimper. He went out like a true loser. His “goat return and mentality” were both complete liabilities.

40-15 was memeable but in hindsight Federer played such a better match in ‘19 Wimby compared to Djokovic today. Not even close. That’s why it’s more embarrassing.
 

MeatTornado

G.O.A.T.
What's embarrassing about losing to a player 9 years younger than you when you've ran 12 more miles in the tournament, and played the tougher draw?
I think the tournament (and season) took a toll on him. But this was much more than a physical loss. He looked sloppy and nervous from the get go. The moment clearly got to him, which is why he couldn't buy a serve the whole match. Fatigue or not, that's usually the one thing you can still rely on and his was MIA from the start. Looked tentative in rallies, not really sure where to go with the ball and on plenty of easy points where he was there in time he still totally botched the shot.

And he was rightfully the massive favorite for the this match. Everything you described was also true at RG and he still won that with little drama. Totally wore down his fresher, younger opponent. In Australia he was supposedly playing through an ab tear but wore down that 9 years younger player.
 

Antonio Puente

Hall of Fame
Federer was 38 and simply played 2 points wrong. Almost no one would’ve thought he could get to that point.

Djokovic played 2.5 hours of tennis wrong. Got destroyed in straight sets with the entire world watching and let the greatest opportunity of his career go, with basically a whimper. He went out like a true loser. His “goat return and mentality” were both complete liabilities.

40-15 was memeable but in hindsight Federer played such a better match in ‘19 Wimby compared to Djokovic today. Not even close. That’s why it’s more embarrassing.
All true.
 

Djokovicfan

Semi-Pro
Djokovic has the highest top speed of any player in history and plays with a racquet that weighs as much as a baseball bat.

he will win more slams.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I think the tournament (and season) took a toll on him. But this was much more than a physical loss. He looked sloppy and nervous from the get go. The moment clearly got to him, which is why he couldn't buy a serve the whole match. Fatigue or not, that's usually the one thing you can still rely on and his was MIA from the start. Looked tentative in rallies, not really sure where to go with the ball and on plenty of easy points where he was there in time he still totally botched the shot.

And he was rightfully the massive favorite for the this match. Everything you described was also true at RG and he still won that with little drama. Totally wore down his fresher, younger opponent. In Australia he was supposedly playing through an ab tear but wore down that 9 years younger player.
His serve had been off the whole tournament to me tbh, and up and down. The second serve is particularly hasn't been great and he usually hits it around 97-100 mph on average but it was much lower this tournament because he was double faulting and not timing it well. I do agree that it was both mental and physical though. Yea he was more tired but he also struggled with the occassion and could never relax, and just let it fly. He didn't start to do that until he was down two breaks in the 3rd set but it was too late then. He needed that same mindset in the 2nd set.

This is different from RG though because he had fresher legs. He's already won Wimbledon and was in the final here, and plus he played a lot of tennis this tournament, more than he usually does in a hardcourt Slam before a final.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
It wasn't his "40-15" because the situations are entirely different, but the way he lost the match while being a pretty big favourite was not a good look. If we were going to credit him with ending the GOAT debate forever more if he had won (and that would've likely happened) then he also has to get an appropriate amount of flack for a terrible performance at a terrible time for him.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I think the tournament (and season) took a toll on him. But this was much more than a physical loss. He looked sloppy and nervous from the get go. The moment clearly got to him, which is why he couldn't buy a serve the whole match. Fatigue or not, that's usually the one thing you can still rely on and his was MIA from the start. Looked tentative in rallies, not really sure where to go with the ball and on plenty of easy points where he was there in time he still totally botched the shot.

And he was rightfully the massive favorite for the this match. Everything you described was also true at RG and he still won that with little drama. Totally wore down his fresher, younger opponent. In Australia he was supposedly playing through an ab tear but wore down that 9 years younger player.
But he should have lost at RG, he was two sets down there too. The argument could be made that Tsitsipas simply failed to put him away. But he has been vulnerable all year, more so than before.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm trying to figure out how was this "not a good look" for Djokovic or "embarrassing" because he couldn't deliver today. He was 3 sets from a calendar Slam. No man has come that close in 50+ years. There's no result from this tournament from Djokovic that could ever be embarrassing or terrible for him once he reached the final unless he was triple bageled. Plus, he has already held all 4 Slams on all 3 surfaces. What man in the modern era has done that? Nobody.
 

Kralingen

Legend
I'm trying to figure out how was this "not a good look" for Djokovic or "embarrassing" because he couldn't deliver today. He was 3 sets from a calendar Slam. No man has come that close in 50+ years. There's no result from this tournament from Djokovic that could ever be embarrassing or terrible for Djokovic once he reached the final unless he was triple bageled. Plus, he has already held all 4 Slams on all 3 surfaces. What man in the modern era has done that? Nobody.
I was being intentionally harsh above because of all the 40-15 jokes hurled at Fed the past couple years. In what world is going 5 sets and holding 2 championship points, at age 38, against another GOAT, somehow worse than the debacle we saw today?

All in all this is still an amazing year for Novak and he is a legendary champion and easily a top 3 player ever. However, he played like pure garbage today. Let’s not sugarcoat what happened out there.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I was being intentionally harsh above because of all the 40-15 jokes hurled at Fed the past couple years. In what world is going 5 sets and holding 2 championship points, at age 38, against another GOAT, somehow worse than the debacle we saw today?

All in all this is still an amazing year for Novak and he is a legendary champion and easily a top 3 player ever. However, he played like pure garbage today. Let’s not sugarcoat what happened out there.
Yeah, tell NoleFam about that irritating Novak fangirl who turned up after ages on TT just to call Fedal terribly overhyped.
 

BGod

Legend
Federer was 38 and simply played 2 points wrong. Almost no one would’ve thought he could get to that point.

Djokovic played 2.5 hours of tennis wrong. Got destroyed in straight sets with the entire world watching and let the greatest opportunity of his career go, with basically a whimper. He went out like a true loser. His “goat return and mentality” were both complete liabilities.

40-15 was memeable but in hindsight Federer played such a better match in ‘19 Wimby compared to Djokovic today. Not even close. That’s why it’s more embarrassing.
Simply played 2 points wrong eh? What about 2011 at age 30?

When you don't have it, you don't have it. Fed got routined by Cilic at 33 so in what way is Roger even in Novak's ball park for comparisons?
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I was being intentionally harsh above because of all the 40-15 jokes hurled at Fed the past couple years. In what world is going 5 sets and holding 2 championship points, at age 38, against another GOAT, somehow worse than the debacle we saw today?

All in all this is still an amazing year for Novak and he is a legendary champion and easily a top 3 player ever. However, he played like pure garbage today. Let’s not sugarcoat what happened out there.
Why was it a debacle? Is that what we call now when an inspired and much younger player plays the match of his life and achieves his dream of becoming a Slam champ? He played better than Djokovic and deserved to win. Federer lost from a winning position on his serve. That is much worse then losing in 3 sets and never being in the match, and it's a harder loss to accept. I do feel the 4015 jokes were too much though.

Yea he didn't play great today but there was nothing embarrassing about it.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Simply played 2 points wrong eh? What about 2011 at age 30?

When you don't have it, you don't have it. Fed got routined by Cilic at 33 so in what way is Roger even in Novak's ball park for comparisons?
No lies told here and Federer was never in this position to be "embarrassing". He didn't get close.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
I think the tournament (and season) took a toll on him. But this was much more than a physical loss. He looked sloppy and nervous from the get go. The moment clearly got to him, which is why he couldn't buy a serve the whole match. Fatigue or not, that's usually the one thing you can still rely on and his was MIA from the start. Looked tentative in rallies, not really sure where to go with the ball and on plenty of easy points where he was there in time he still totally botched the shot.

And he was rightfully the massive favorite for the this match. Everything you described was also true at RG and he still won that with little drama. Totally wore down his fresher, younger opponent. In Australia he was supposedly playing through an ab tear but wore down that 9 years younger player.
Nole didn't show up.

But maybe he was banking on Medvedev self-destructing patches during matches: but you firstly put him under pressure for that to happen, and he never managed it.
 

Kralingen

Legend
Simply played 2 points wrong eh? What about 2011 at age 30?

When you don't have it, you don't have it. Fed got routined by Cilic at 33 so in what way is Roger even in Novak's ball park for comparisons?
I think it is better when a player has championship points and loses than when a player does not. Also - Nishikori beat a much younger Djokovic that tournament which is honestly more embarrassing than any loss Fed has had to Djokovic. Losing to a GOAT like Novak is never that embarrassing. Losing to Nishikori in your own peak? I think that’s worse.
Why was it a debacle? Is that what we call now when an inspired and much younger player plays the match of his life and achieves his dream of becoming a Slam champ? He played better than Djokovic and deserved to win. Federer lost from a winning position on his server. That is much worse then losing in 3 sets and never being in the match, and it's a harder loss to accept.

Yea he didn't play great today but there was nothing embarrassing about it.
This was the moment though. The entire NYC Crowd was behind him for heaven’s sake. Laver was in the house. This was when he transcended everything to truly become GOAT, an iconic and irreproachable moment in tennis history.

It ended with him crying on the podium after breaking serve only once and putting up a stinker for the world to see. This was the day Djokovic was to be crowned. Instead, he was clowned by a lanky guy who did the FIFA dead fish celebration at the end.

It wasn’t a choke per se but it was such a letdown given all that was riding on this match. He had the opportunity that every tennis player dreams of and he just fully capitulated. I know it hurts and I’m not trying to be mean. I feel for him too. But objectively this day was a complete and utter failure and he has nothing to be proud of from this match. Amazing year, putrid finish.
 

BGod

Legend
I think it is better when a player has championship points and loses than when a player does not. Also - Nishikori beat a much younger Djokovic that tournament which is honestly more embarrassing than any loss Fed has had to Djokovic. Losing to a GOAT like Novak is never that embarrassing. Losing to Nishikori in your own peak? I think that’s worse.
Okay, and few would agree with you. Losing matches while holding MPs nevermind CPs is rare, but Fed does hold the record for most matches Lost with MPs. Losing matches as a favourite is quite common and even still a lot more of those for Fed than Novak.

The Nishikori thing is funny to mention because guy has struggled with injuries, otherwise many flashes of fine form. And it was 4 sets and Novak won 5 of next 6 Slams.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
Federer was 38 and simply played 2 points wrong. Almost no one would’ve thought he could get to that point.

Djokovic played 2.5 hours of tennis wrong. Got destroyed in straight sets with the entire world watching and let the greatest opportunity of his career go, with basically a whimper. He went out like a true loser. His “goat return and mentality” were both complete liabilities.

40-15 was memeable but in hindsight Federer played such a better match in ‘19 Wimby compared to Djokovic today. Not even close. That’s why it’s more embarrassing.
Fed played great; he was the underdog on his own playground and the whole stadium was cheering for him.
He then got to match point and his nerves betrayed him once more.

Nole was the favorite today, the whole tennis world counted on him to achieve history, and the occasion got to him big time. He basically never produced his normal play for the whole duration. But he never excelled on this surface to begin with.

Nole's choking was constant and predictable; Roger's was sudden and spectacular.

I think history might retain the later as the biggest choke because Roger was at his pet slam while Nole wasn't.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think so.
Roger's match was on his racket, Novak was never even in this one.
True, but that's also how everybody rationalizes a Djokovic or Nadal blowout loss here. They never get crapped on for choking because they go down so easily in the first place with these types of losses, but what is this if it wasn't a complete choke in every single way? He was terrible from the word go. He even got a warning for racquet abuse and would've gotten defaulted again if he followed through on smacking the ball with the ball girl so close. LAWL.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I think it is better when a player has championship points and loses than when a player does not. Also - Nishikori beat a much younger Djokovic that tournament which is honestly more embarrassing than any loss Fed has had to Djokovic. Losing to a GOAT like Novak is never that embarrassing. Losing to Nishikori in your own peak? I think that’s worse.

This was the moment though. The entire NYC Crowd was behind him for heaven’s sake. Laver was in the house. This was when he transcended everything to truly become GOAT, an iconic and irreproachable moment in tennis history.

It ended with him crying on the podium after breaking serve only once and putting up a stinker for the world to see. This was the day Djokovic was to be crowned. Instead, he was clowned by a lanky guy who did the FIFA dead fish celebration at the end.

It wasn’t a choke per se but it was such a letdown given all that was riding on this match. He had the opportunity that every tennis player dreams of and he just fully capitulated. I know it hurts and I’m not trying to be mean. I feel for him too. But objectively this day was a complete and utter failure and he has nothing to be proud of from this match. Amazing year, putrid finish.
Djokovic has won 8 Slams in his 30's and completely dominated guys a decade younger than him in Slams and he finally loses one match and now all of a sudden it was embarrassing? He has had a stellar year and the CYGS would have been beyond amazing but it was not a requirement for him to have already put his stamp on the game, and frankly he still has had the best career of anyone. People always complaining about next gen not stepping up and then when one of them finally does, 34 year old Djokovic was clowned by a 25 year old lanky guy? Lol.

You're not trying to be mean? I can't tell. Dude, Fedal never even got past the second leg to a CYGS. Djokovic was at the 4th leg in the final. He has a lot to be proud of from this tournament. At the end of the day, he could retire today and still be considered the greatest.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
Big deal. He won AO, RG, and Wimbledon back to back AND he already has the Nole Slam. This was a painful loss, but (just like Fed after 40-15) he can still walk away knowing that all he missed was a little icing on the cake.
(Ok, he definitely missed more than Fed did at W19, but still. They'll remain GOATs no matter what.)
 

Kralingen

Legend
Djokovic has won 8 Slams in his 30's and completely dominated guys a decade younger than him in Slams and he finally loses one match and now all of a sudden it was embarrassing? He has had a stellar year and the CYGS would have been beyond amazing but it was not a requirement for him to have already put his stamp on the game, and frankly he still has had the best career of anyone. People always complaining about next gen not stepping up and then when one of them finally does, 34 year old Djokovic was clowned by a 25 year old lanky guy? Lol.

You're not trying to be mean? I can't tell. Dude, Fedal never even got past the second leg to a CYGS. Djokovic was at the 4th leg in the final. He has a lot to be proud of from this tournament. At the end of the day, he could retire today and still be considered the greatest.
Idk man, I truly do think Novak is going to end up with the greatest achievements of the 3. And you know I’m always fair to him in the debates around peak and level and gun to my head I could probably make a better argument for him being the GOAT than the other two.

But I’m talking about this one match today. cosmically this was his moment and he let it slip. It was the match that everyone would point to as the crowning of him becoming the GOAT. He also beat himself on the break points. I’m not talking about the rest of the year I mean today. He sucked today plain and simple, and this was an awful time to lay an egg. Federer in ‘19 was 38 and just going for a bonus Slam. His legacy was fully secure by then.

So given the expectation and pressure of this match, the opportunity he had, then yes this was a very embarrassing result, and it was more embarrassing than if he had held match points imo.
 

Marfrilau

Rookie
Okay, and few would agree with you. Losing matches while holding MPs nevermind CPs is rare, but Fed does hold the record for most matches Lost with MPs. Losing matches as a favourite is quite common and even still a lot more of those for Fed than Novak.

The Nishikori thing is funny to mention because guy has struggled with injuries, otherwise many flashes of fine form. And it was 4 sets and Novak won 5 of next 6 Slams.
Saying that losing a match while holding MPs is worse than losing in straights is like saying losing in a final is worse than losing in R1. It has never been the case that performing worse is better. The only reason people think so is to protect themselves emotionally from what could have been.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
Djokovic has won 8 Slams in his 30's and completely dominated guys a decade younger than him in Slams and he finally loses one match and now all of a sudden it was embarrassing?
Yes, but the MANNER in which you lose counts too.

Novak prided himself on thriving under pressure, and yet he folded decisively in the face of expectations against a player who never beat him in best of 5.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Idk man, I truly do think Novak is going to end up with the greatest achievements of the 3. And you know I’m always fair to him in the debates around peak and level and gun to my head I could probably make a better argument for him being the GOAT than the other two.

But I’m talking about this one match today. cosmically this was his moment and he let it slip. It was the match that everyone would point to as the crowning of him becoming the GOAT. He also beat himself on the break points. I’m not talking about the rest of the year I mean today. He sucked today plain and simple, and this was an awful time to lay an egg. Federer in ‘19 was 38 and just going for a bonus Slam. His legacy was fully secure by then.

So given the expectation and pressure of this match, the opportunity he had, then yes this was a very embarrassing result, and it was more embarrassing than if he had held match points imo.
Yea it is disappointing for him to not play better than he did today considering what was on the line but to me it could never be considered embarrassing, a failure, or nothing to proud of. How can any tennis player not be proud of making the final of the USO after winning the 1st 3, and having a shot like this even if they don't win?
 
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GabeT

G.O.A.T.
No

at 34 he won 3 slams and stopped Nadal at the FO

Won the time at #1 records

Next year he'll get the slam record
 

sredna42

Hall of Fame
In the biggest match of his life, against a player he totally dominated at the same stage 7 months ago, Novak played strangely subdued and never produced his best when it mattered the most.

There was no killer instinct, no drama and no swagger.

The mental giant who silences the crowds had no answer when he couldn't play the role of the underdog.

Whether he recovers or not is very much a question mark; one thing seems certain; he'll never get a second chance at grand slam in his career.
Twist that knife LOL

this thread is not gonna go down well at all
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, but the MANNER in which you lose counts too.

Novak prided himself on thriving under pressure, and yet he folded decisively in the face of expectations against a player who never beat him in best of 5.
He lost 4, 4 and 4. 3 set match but all close sets. When Federer was losing to Nadal and Djokovic, it was because he was too old, but now when Djokovic loses to a guy who is like a decade younger with much fresher legs thanks to Djokovic spending way more energy on the court, he folded decisively? You guys have to realize spending 5+ more hours on court than your opponent in the final and running that much more them throughout the tournament is hard to overcome, especially when you are that much older and your recovery takes longer.
 

terribleIVAN

Hall of Fame
(Ok, he definitely missed more than Fed did at W19, but still. They'll remain GOATs no matter what.)
Fed missed on so many records at W 2019 that it would have made him the indisputable GOAT, grand slam or not, at the time he missed it.

He would be the actual slam holder with 21, and as we just saw there's no guarantee either Rafa or Nole ever reach 21.

I strongly suspect they might, but i won't put my life on the line for this one.
 
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