Wawrinka an all time great?

Centre Court

Semi-Pro
If Stanimal were to win tomorrow he would be the only man to defeat Rafa at a FO final, and would give him one more FO title than Federer and Djokovic. Would this victory over the seemingly invincible clay court Nadal make him an all time great?
 

kevaninho

Hall of Fame
Id like to see him keep winning at least 1 slam per year for another few years then see where he ends up. Watching him sometimes is amazing, other times a disaster. Be very interesting after this how he fares defending the US open. Winning the French and defending the US open will certainly cement his place.
 

mightyrick

Legend
Depends on your definition of ATG.

Many, including myself, have a Becker/Edberg career as the minimum entry for ATG. That would mean six slams for Stan to enter that category - especially since he's done little outside of his slam wins.

To be honest, he's not ahead of Murray with a win tomorrow.

Like you said, it all depends on your own definition of ATG.
 

BlueB

Legend
Waw is and still would be part of the Tier 4 ATGs, that was invented specially to accommodate Murray.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
 

Roddick85

Hall of Fame
Same as @Phoenix1983. He's not an ATG to me. 3 slams is not enough especially with his penchant to only show up for slams. Becker/Edberg territory is more like it.
Agreed. His record outside of slams is still very weak, and also no weeks as #1 either. He's a great player, but when you look at the resume of other ATG, his still pales in comparison. ATG or not, it doesn't take away that he's still a great player.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Agreed. His record outside of slams is still very weak, and also no weeks as #1 either. He's a great player, but when you look at the resume of other ATG, his still pales in comparison. ATG or not, it doesn't take away that he's still a great player.

Yeah. Nobody is trying to say he's not a great player. He's simply not an ATG, but that's perfectly ok.
 

Rafa24

Hall of Fame
Interesting discussion. Like was said all depends of your definition of ATG. I'd say no. 4 slams would be a great career but would not make one an all time great IMO.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
If Stan beats Nadal tomorrow, he effectively has the equivalent of 9 FOs since there would be an asterisk on all of Nadal's clay achievements.
 

Rafa24

Hall of Fame
If Stan beats Nadal tomorrow, he effectively has the equivalent of 9 FOs since there would be an asterisk on all of Nadal's clay achievements.
Does that mean Wawa would be ahead of Fed on the ATG list since Fed could never beat Rafa at RG and stan would be 2-0 against Rafa in slam finals vs. rogers 3-6?
 

Semidios

Semi-Pro
You are an ATG for me if you do any of the following:

Win the same slam 4 or more times during your career.

Win 3 or more consecutive titles at a particular slam.

Win a slam on each of the 3 surfaces.

Get your slam tally to 10 or more titles.

Being No. 1 at least a 100 weeks.
 

DerekNoleFam1

Hall of Fame
You are an ATG for me if you do any of the following:

Win the same slam 4 or more times during your career.

Win 3 or more consecutive titles at a particular slam.

Win a slam on each of the 3 surfaces.

Get your slam tally to 10 or more titles.

Being No. 1 at least a 100 weeks.

That pretty much disqualifies Borg, Lendl, Connors, Mac and others that are considered ATG's.
But on the OP, he is close but not quite there yet.
He moves into Jim Courier territory, but no weeks at Number 1 and less titles.
 

Semidios

Semi-Pro
That pretty much disqualifies Borg, Lendl, Connors, Mac and others that are considered ATG's.
But on the OP, he is close but not quite there yet.
He moves into Jim Courier territory, but no weeks at Number 1 and less titles.

Any of those feats not all of them.
 

citybert

Hall of Fame
He is definitely HOF you only need one Slam to be in that convo.

ATG is hard since everyone has a different definition of ATG
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
I suspect he'll go down as one of the most fondly remembered players of this generation that we'll still be talking about when we're old geezers and kids will roll their eyes about how good this 3-slam winner could've really been compared to the double-digit heavyweights.

But if he wins tomorrow, he'll be a legend forever.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
Of course. AT status isn't just number of titles. Context, context, context.

A perfect 4-0.
Beating Nadal & Djokovic twice each.
 

jussumman

Hall of Fame
Not yet getting close, but if he wins tomorrow and wins Wimbledon to complete the career grand slam -yes.
 

Semidios

Semi-Pro
That pretty much disqualifies Borg, Lendl, Connors, Mac and others that are considered ATG's.
But on the OP, he is close but not quite there yet.
He moves into Jim Courier territory, but no weeks at Number 1 and less titles.

No everyone of them archived at least one of the feats I said.
 
Depends on your definition of ATG.

Many, including myself, have a Becker/Edberg career as the minimum entry for ATG. That would mean six slams for Stan to enter that category - especially since he's done little outside of his slam wins.

To be honest, he's not ahead of Murray with a win tomorrow.

Why not? Murray has won 3 slams since 2012, Warinka 3 since 2014 & possibly 4 later on today. He has won all three slam finals he has been in, Murray has choked in 8 of them. Murray has 2 Wimbledon & 1 US. Warinka has 1 Aus, 1 French & 1 US-he is more versatile. the only thing Murray has going for him is he became an excellent/great player a lot earlier.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Why not? Murray has won 3 slams since 2012, Warinka 3 since 2014 & possibly 4 later on today. He has won all three slam finals he has been in, Murray has choked in 8 of them. Murray has 2 Wimbledon & 1 US. Warinka has 1 Aus, 1 French & 1 US-he is more versatile. the only thing Murray has going for him is he became an excellent/great player a lot earlier.

The only thing? I think there's still the little matter of the vast imbalance of overall titles won. Murray has 45 titles including a WTF, 14 Masters and 2 OSGs. Stan is on 16 titles with just the 1 Masters as his only big title other than his Slams. If he wins later today, he will still only be on 17 titles although he will have 1 more Slam. There's also the fact that Murray has achieved the #1 ranking. That's something else Stan will need to do although he will move a step nearer to it today if he emerges triumphant at RG.
 
The only thing? I think there's still the little matter of the vast imbalance of overall titles won. Murray has 45 titles including a WTF, 14 Masters and 2 OSGs. Stan is on 16 titles with just the 1 Masters as his only big title other than his Slams. If he wins later today, he will still only be on 17 titles although he will have 1 more Slam. There's also the fact that Murray has achieved the #1 ranking. That's something else Stan will need to do although he will move a step nearer to it today if he emerges triumphant at RG.

Yep, although how many remember/care about number of tour titles? People remember the slams. Murray despite his great season only got to number one because Novak fell off a cliff last year, it isn't really an indicator of who the best player is-does anybody believe Safina & Jankovic were better than the Williams sisters or Sharapova when they went to number one? Or that Muster, Rios, Moya, Kafelnikov & Ferrero were better than Sampras, Federer, Agassi etc?
 
I don't think Stan will win today. But I think he is an amazing player already. If somehow he pulls off a win, it would be epic.

He is the only guy with the physical tools to beat Novak here at the moment. Murray has nothing that can threaten him in his current form as shown a few years back when Nadal destroyed him in the semis & his showing against Novak in the final last year.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
He is the only guy with the physical tools to beat Novak here at the moment. Murray has nothing that can threaten him in his current form as shown a few years back when Nadal destroyed him in the semis & his showing against Novak in the final last year.
I'm not sure why you are talking about Novak right now. I would say he is the only guy with the tools to beat this version of Nadal, but he has to be red hot, and Nadal has to be off, losing his serve quickly in the first set.
 

Guitario

Rookie
With at least 3 slam wins in 4 finals, he's in Courier territory.. but then again Stan hasn't been world number 1, or even close. Even if the big 4 all retired tomorrow.. would he have the consistency to dominate, even for a year? I don't think he would. For me an ATG is more than about pure stats, it's whether they have the mentality of an ATG.. and he's just too inconsistent.

4 or 5 slams does change things.. so we'll see at the end of his career.

No question though, his peak level has to be inside the top 10 players of all time - that's why he's in the debate. Watching Stanimal emerge every now and then is the closest we have to God mode Sampras.
 

Bukmeikara

Legend
Stan is an 100% ATG:

1. Won three different Slams, very difficult draws (3 top 10 players, US 2 + Del Po) + defeated the world number 1 every single time
2. He has arguably the best one handed backhand in history. People would study his technique for decades.
3. The way he was able to shift from top 20 to top 5 in his late 20's is unseen and unique achievement. Nobody has done it before, that counts a lot !
4. If he somehow wins today, he would quite likely become the oldest first time number 1 at 32 years of age!
5. Given his incredible story and career, Stan Wawrinka is pretty much certain to have his own chapter in every tennis book.
6. Stanimal is a nickname which would forever inspire people
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Stan is an 100% ATG:

1. Won three different Slams, very difficult draws (3 top 10 players, US 2 + Del Po) + defeated the world number 1 every single time
2. He has arguably the best one handed backhand in history. People would study his technique for decades.
3. The way he was able to shift from top 20 to top 5 in his late 20's is unseen and unique achievement. Nobody has done it before, that counts a lot !
4. If he somehow wins today, he would quite likely become the oldest first time number 1 at 32 years of age!
5. Given his incredible story and career, Stan Wawrinka is pretty much certain to have his own chapter in every tennis book.
6. Stanimal is a nickname which would forever inspire people

Don't agree that he'll be an ATG, but your post is a great summary of why he'll be forever remembered.
 

Dave1982

Professional
If Stanimal were to win tomorrow he would be the only man to defeat Rafa at a FO final, and would give him one more FO title than Federer and Djokovic. Would this victory over the seemingly invincible clay court Nadal make him an all time great?

I actually hate that I'm replying to your post because it only gives you oxygen....but hey it's a forum so I'm here, you're here and c'est la vie.

Stan will be remembered in about the same breath as Courier....if he wins tonight then maybe Becker & Edberg. Sure he's HOF material but still a long way behind your ATG's so f$#k off and stop making stupid posts.....
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Yep, although how many remember/care about number of tour titles? People remember the slams. Murray despite his great season only got to number one because Novak fell off a cliff last year, it isn't really an indicator of who the best player is-does anybody believe Safina & Jankovic were better than the Williams sisters or Sharapova when they went to number one? Or that Muster, Rios, Moya, Kafelnikov & Ferrero were better than Sampras, Federer, Agassi etc?

It doesn't matter. They were the best performing players at the time they got to #1 which is how the ranking is obtained (although that admittedly may not always be the case during their tenure). It isn't just awarded to the player with the most titles in their resumé and, yes, Djokovic fell off the cliff last year but Murray helped to push him off!
 

Centre Court

Semi-Pro
I actually hate that I'm replying to your post because it only gives you oxygen....but hey it's a forum so I'm here, you're here and c'est la vie.

Stan will be remembered in about the same breath as Courier....if he wins tonight then maybe Becker & Edberg. Sure he's HOF material but still a long way behind your ATG's so f$#k off and stop making stupid posts.....
Shame I can't take oxygen away from you, arsehole
 
Top