Wawrinka an all time great?

[Centre Court]

If Stanimal were to win tomorrow he would be the only man to defeat Rafa at a FO final, and would give him one more FO title than Federer and Djokovic. Would this victory over the seemingly invincible clay court Nadal make him an all time great?

 

[Terenigma]

No.

 

[tennisaddict]

Of course yes and he will be rightfully part of the Big 4

 

[TheAssassin]

Personally, I'd consider Becker/Edberg careers as minimum requirements for becoming an ATG. So no.

 

[MatsPhilander]

He already is.

 

[vladisimo]

shouldn t wawrinka with 3 grand slams already be an ATG?

 

[mightyrick]

shouldn t wawrinka with 3 grand slams already be an ATG?

Yes. And he is already an ATG. This thread is a fail.

 

[vladisimo]

Yes. And he is already an ATG. This thread is a fail.

the usual then..

 

[kevaninho]

Id like to see him keep winning at least 1 slam per year for another few years then see where he ends up. Watching him sometimes is amazing, other times a disaster. Be very interesting after this how he fares defending the US open. Winning the French and defending the US open will certainly cement his place.

 

[TahoeTennis]

1 slam you're great, 2 really great, 3 is already atg 4 is great Gatsby 5+ is grrrreat frosted flakes style

 

[Phoenix1983]

Yes. And he is already an ATG. This thread is a fail.

Depends on your definition of ATG.

Many, including myself, have a Becker/Edberg career as the minimum entry for ATG. That would mean six slams for Stan to enter that category - especially since he's done little outside of his slam wins.

To be honest, he's not ahead of Murray with a win tomorrow.

 

[Steve0904]

Same as @Phoenix1983. He's not an ATG to me. 3 slams is not enough especially with his penchant to only show up for slams. Becker/Edberg territory is more like it.

 

[mightyrick]

Depends on your definition of ATG.

Many, including myself, have a Becker/Edberg career as the minimum entry for ATG. That would mean six slams for Stan to enter that category - especially since he's done little outside of his slam wins.

To be honest, he's not ahead of Murray with a win tomorrow.

Like you said, it all depends on your own definition of ATG.

 

[abmk]

nope.
For me, the becker/edberg/wilander tier is minimum for being called an ATG.

 

[BlueB]

Waw is and still would be part of the Tier 4 ATGs, that was invented specially to accommodate Murray.

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[Roddick85]

Same as @Phoenix1983. He's not an ATG to me. 3 slams is not enough especially with his penchant to only show up for slams. Becker/Edberg territory is more like it.

Agreed. His record outside of slams is still very weak, and also no weeks as #1 either. He's a great player, but when you look at the resume of other ATG, his still pales in comparison. ATG or not, it doesn't take away that he's still a great player.

 

[Steve0904]

Agreed. His record outside of slams is still very weak, and also no weeks as #1 either. He's a great player, but when you look at the resume of other ATG, his still pales in comparison. ATG or not, it doesn't take away that he's still a great player.

Yeah. Nobody is trying to say he's not a great player. He's simply not an ATG, but that's perfectly ok.

 

[TahoeTennis]

You beat rafa at the fo in the finals, you just might be wn atg.

 

[Rafa24]

Interesting discussion. Like was said all depends of your definition of ATG. I'd say no. 4 slams would be a great career but would not make one an all time great IMO.

 

[Tennisanity]

If Stan beats Nadal tomorrow, he effectively has the equivalent of 9 FOs since there would be an asterisk on all of Nadal's clay achievements.

 

[ACE of Hearts]

I am hoping to see good Stan and not the stan that got destroyed by nadal 4 years ago

 

[Rafa24]

If Stan beats Nadal tomorrow, he effectively has the equivalent of 9 FOs since there would be an asterisk on all of Nadal's clay achievements.

Does that mean Wawa would be ahead of Fed on the ATG list since Fed could never beat Rafa at RG and stan would be 2-0 against Rafa in slam finals vs. rogers 3-6?

 

[Get A Grip]

If Stanimal were to win tomorrow he would be the only man to defeat Rafa at a FO final, and would give him one more FO title than Federer and Djokovic. Would this victory over the seemingly invincible clay court Nadal make him an all time great?

No.

 

[Semidios]

You are an ATG for me if you do any of the following:

Win the same slam 4 or more times during your career.

Win 3 or more consecutive titles at a particular slam.

Win a slam on each of the 3 surfaces.

Get your slam tally to 10 or more titles.

Being No. 1 at least a 100 weeks.

 

[Tennisanity]

Does that mean Wawa would be ahead of Fed on the ATG list since Fed could never beat Rafa at RG and stan would be 2-0 against Rafa in slam finals vs. rogers 3-6?

No, all time great list is largely dependent on overall slam count.

 

[DerekNoleFam1]

You are an ATG for me if you do any of the following:

Win the same slam 4 or more times during your career.

Win 3 or more consecutive titles at a particular slam.

Win a slam on each of the 3 surfaces.

Get your slam tally to 10 or more titles.

Being No. 1 at least a 100 weeks.

That pretty much disqualifies Borg, Lendl, Connors, Mac and others that are considered ATG's.
But on the OP, he is close but not quite there yet.
He moves into Jim Courier territory, but no weeks at Number 1 and less titles.

 

[Semidios]

That pretty much disqualifies Borg, Lendl, Connors, Mac and others that are considered ATG's.
But on the OP, he is close but not quite there yet.
He moves into Jim Courier territory, but no weeks at Number 1 and less titles.

Any of those feats not all of them.

 

[Shaolin]

To me he is already a HOF player but ATG's have double digit slams.

 

[citybert]

He is definitely HOF you only need one Slam to be in that convo.

ATG is hard since everyone has a different definition of ATG

 

[MeatTornado]

I suspect he'll go down as one of the most fondly remembered players of this generation that we'll still be talking about when we're old geezers and kids will roll their eyes about how good this 3-slam winner could've really been compared to the double-digit heavyweights.

But if he wins tomorrow, he'll be a legend forever.

 

[BGod]

Of course. AT status isn't just number of titles. Context, context, context.

A perfect 4-0.
Beating Nadal & Djokovic twice each.

 

[jussumman]

Not yet getting close, but if he wins tomorrow and wins Wimbledon to complete the career grand slam -yes.

 

[smoledman]

No.

Yes.


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[Semidios]

That pretty much disqualifies Borg, Lendl, Connors, Mac and others that are considered ATG's.
But on the OP, he is close but not quite there yet.
He moves into Jim Courier territory, but no weeks at Number 1 and less titles.

No everyone of them archived at least one of the feats I said.

 

[MatsPhilander]

Depends on your definition of ATG.

Many, including myself, have a Becker/Edberg career as the minimum entry for ATG. That would mean six slams for Stan to enter that category - especially since he's done little outside of his slam wins.

To be honest, he's not ahead of Murray with a win tomorrow.

Why not? Murray has won 3 slams since 2012, Warinka 3 since 2014 & possibly 4 later on today. He has won all three slam finals he has been in, Murray has choked in 8 of them. Murray has 2 Wimbledon & 1 US. Warinka has 1 Aus, 1 French & 1 US-he is more versatile. the only thing Murray has going for him is he became an excellent/great player a lot earlier.

 

[Mainad]

Why not? Murray has won 3 slams since 2012, Warinka 3 since 2014 & possibly 4 later on today. He has won all three slam finals he has been in, Murray has choked in 8 of them. Murray has 2 Wimbledon & 1 US. Warinka has 1 Aus, 1 French & 1 US-he is more versatile. the only thing Murray has going for him is he became an excellent/great player a lot earlier.

The only thing? I think there's still the little matter of the vast imbalance of overall titles won. Murray has 45 titles including a WTF, 14 Masters and 2 OSGs. Stan is on 16 titles with just the 1 Masters as his only big title other than his Slams. If he wins later today, he will still only be on 17 titles although he will have 1 more Slam. There's also the fact that Murray has achieved the #1 ranking. That's something else Stan will need to do although he will move a step nearer to it today if he emerges triumphant at RG.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

If Stanimal were to win tomorrow he would be the only man to defeat Rafa at a FO final, and would give him one more FO title than Federer and Djokovic. Would this victory over the seemingly invincible clay court Nadal make him an all time great?

He already is.
​

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Personally, I'd consider Becker/Edberg careers as minimum requirements for becoming an ATG. So no.

This times a million. Not many people consider Courier an ATG and Wawrinka would have less achievements than him.

 

[MatsPhilander]

The only thing? I think there's still the little matter of the vast imbalance of overall titles won. Murray has 45 titles including a WTF, 14 Masters and 2 OSGs. Stan is on 16 titles with just the 1 Masters as his only big title other than his Slams. If he wins later today, he will still only be on 17 titles although he will have 1 more Slam. There's also the fact that Murray has achieved the #1 ranking. That's something else Stan will need to do although he will move a step nearer to it today if he emerges triumphant at RG.

Yep, although how many remember/care about number of tour titles? People remember the slams. Murray despite his great season only got to number one because Novak fell off a cliff last year, it isn't really an indicator of who the best player is-does anybody believe Safina & Jankovic were better than the Williams sisters or Sharapova when they went to number one? Or that Muster, Rios, Moya, Kafelnikov & Ferrero were better than Sampras, Federer, Agassi etc?

 

[Gary Duane]

I don't think Stan will win today. But I think he is an amazing player already. If somehow he pulls off a win, it would be epic.

 

[MatsPhilander]

I don't think Stan will win today. But I think he is an amazing player already. If somehow he pulls off a win, it would be epic.

He is the only guy with the physical tools to beat Novak here at the moment. Murray has nothing that can threaten him in his current form as shown a few years back when Nadal destroyed him in the semis & his showing against Novak in the final last year.

 

[Gary Duane]

He is the only guy with the physical tools to beat Novak here at the moment. Murray has nothing that can threaten him in his current form as shown a few years back when Nadal destroyed him in the semis & his showing against Novak in the final last year.

I'm not sure why you are talking about Novak right now. I would say he is the only guy with the tools to beat this version of Nadal, but he has to be red hot, and Nadal has to be off, losing his serve quickly in the first set.

 

[MatsPhilander]

I'm not sure why you are talking about Novak right now. I would say he is the only guy with the tools to beat this version of Nadal, but he has to be red hot, and Nadal has to be off, losing his serve quickly in the first set.

Thiem broke him off the bat.

 

[Guitario]

With at least 3 slam wins in 4 finals, he's in Courier territory.. but then again Stan hasn't been world number 1, or even close. Even if the big 4 all retired tomorrow.. would he have the consistency to dominate, even for a year? I don't think he would. For me an ATG is more than about pure stats, it's whether they have the mentality of an ATG.. and he's just too inconsistent.

4 or 5 slams does change things.. so we'll see at the end of his career.

No question though, his peak level has to be inside the top 10 players of all time - that's why he's in the debate. Watching Stanimal emerge every now and then is the closest we have to God mode Sampras.

 

[Bukmeikara]

Stan is an 100% ATG:

1. Won three different Slams, very difficult draws (3 top 10 players, US 2 + Del Po) + defeated the world number 1 every single time
2. He has arguably the best one handed backhand in history. People would study his technique for decades.
3. The way he was able to shift from top 20 to top 5 in his late 20's is unseen and unique achievement. Nobody has done it before, that counts a lot !
4. If he somehow wins today, he would quite likely become the oldest first time number 1 at 32 years of age!
5. Given his incredible story and career, Stan Wawrinka is pretty much certain to have his own chapter in every tennis book.
6. Stanimal is a nickname which would forever inspire people

 

[Phoenix1983]

Stan is an 100% ATG:

1. Won three different Slams, very difficult draws (3 top 10 players, US 2 + Del Po) + defeated the world number 1 every single time
2. He has arguably the best one handed backhand in history. People would study his technique for decades.
3. The way he was able to shift from top 20 to top 5 in his late 20's is unseen and unique achievement. Nobody has done it before, that counts a lot !
4. If he somehow wins today, he would quite likely become the oldest first time number 1 at 32 years of age!
5. Given his incredible story and career, Stan Wawrinka is pretty much certain to have his own chapter in every tennis book.
6. Stanimal is a nickname which would forever inspire people

Don't agree that he'll be an ATG, but your post is a great summary of why he'll be forever remembered.

 

[H_Richardson]

6 slams including one Wimbledon is needed considering the lack of success outside of slams imo.

 

[Dave1982]

If Stanimal were to win tomorrow he would be the only man to defeat Rafa at a FO final, and would give him one more FO title than Federer and Djokovic. Would this victory over the seemingly invincible clay court Nadal make him an all time great?

I actually hate that I'm replying to your post because it only gives you oxygen....but hey it's a forum so I'm here, you're here and c'est la vie.

Stan will be remembered in about the same breath as Courier....if he wins tonight then maybe Becker & Edberg. Sure he's HOF material but still a long way behind your ATG's so f$#k off and stop making stupid posts.....

 

[Mainad]

Yep, although how many remember/care about number of tour titles? People remember the slams. Murray despite his great season only got to number one because Novak fell off a cliff last year, it isn't really an indicator of who the best player is-does anybody believe Safina & Jankovic were better than the Williams sisters or Sharapova when they went to number one? Or that Muster, Rios, Moya, Kafelnikov & Ferrero were better than Sampras, Federer, Agassi etc?

It doesn't matter. They were the best performing players at the time they got to #1 which is how the ranking is obtained (although that admittedly may not always be the case during their tenure). It isn't just awarded to the player with the most titles in their resumé and, yes, Djokovic fell off the cliff last year but Murray helped to push him off!

 

[Centre Court]

I actually hate that I'm replying to your post because it only gives you oxygen....but hey it's a forum so I'm here, you're here and c'est la vie.

Stan will be remembered in about the same breath as Courier....if he wins tonight then maybe Becker & Edberg. Sure he's HOF material but still a long way behind your ATG's so f$#k off and stop making stupid posts.....

Shame I can't take oxygen away from you, arsehole