Wawrinka : Uncle Toni coaches too much

fednad

Hall of Fame
Exactly.

He actually told on himself and the rest of the tour with that statement.
No. This is what he said:
"We all know, players and umpire, that Toni is always trying to help Rafa. That's normal. That's part of the game. "

I infer it like this. Toni always helps Rafa and rest of the tour has come to accept it because the Uncle-Nephew pair would not stop.
He NOWHERE made this statement in terms of ATP culture. He said it specifically with respect to ******* fellow and his uncle.
 

namelessone

Legend
No. This is what he said:
"We all know, players and umpire, that Toni is always trying to help Rafa. That's normal. That's part of the game. "

I infer it like this. Toni always helps Rafa and rest of the tour has come to accept it because the Uncle-Nephew pair would not stop.
He NOWHERE made this statement in terms of ATP culture. He said it specifically with respect to ******* fellow and his uncle.
So what do you make about the "THAT'S PART OF THE GAME" bit?

Wawrinka seems to be saying that a coach helping out his pupil(and how can you help your pupil during matches if not by coaching) is normal on tour but not this blatantly.
 

namelessone

Legend
How is it a ridiculous comparison when he basically cheated Wawa from the winner's cheque? You do realise Wawrinka lost money right coz he lost? Nadal should've been defaulted and his uncle should've been kicked out of the O2 arena.
If Wawrinka thinks he has ground to stand on, he should sue Nadal.
 
M

monfed

Guest
I don't know, what do you call people who make allegations and don't bring out any proof to back up their claims. Remember, the burden of proof is on you.

I'm still waiting on the guy who called Nadal a talentless hack word for word. QUIT STALLING.
The burden of proof is on YOU to prove Nadal's not a cheat and you have done absolutely nothing,ZILCH, that he's not.


I'm just testing the consistency of your worldview and nothing more. Isn't your prerogative that the ATP and their own media protect Nadal and try to make him rise in an artificial way? How can any commentator call Nadal a talentless hack and get away with it in this worldview? Doesn't it shatter the internal rules of your conspiracy worldview?
Blah blah blah * insert conspiracy blather rant here* Blah blah blah.
 

fednad

Hall of Fame
So what do you make about the "THAT'S PART OF THE GAME" bit?

Wawrinka seems to be saying that a coach helping out his pupil(and how can you help your pupil during matches if not by coaching) is normal on tour but not this blatantly.
You may add that bit to the bold part as well. I wil lstill say he is talking in context of this match. Say "That is part of the game when Nadal is concerned".
Look mate, Stan is not the first guy and this is not the first time this accusation has happened.
 
M

monfed

Guest
If Wawrinka thinks he has ground to stand on, he should sue Nadal.
IDK bout that but I'm glad he's made it public that Nadal is a cheater who should be disqualified from the WTF and the cultureless scumbag Toni shouldn't be permitted inside the stadium.
 
T

TennisandMusic

Guest
Oh please. How on earth could Toni be coaching so loud that Stan could hear it, but the umpire couldn't?

Stan was just mad because he knew he was heading for straight set loss #12 in a row.

Oh, and those inept cameramen who can't ever seem to catch a glimpse of Nadal even glancing towards the stands, or Toni saying anything.

Stan is a big, pouty baby, mad because he can't win.
Yeah this is right on. Iv'e just never seen it, ever, on TV. Not in Wimbledon, not in the 2010 US Open when the camera was right in Toni's face all match, never. Not saying it doesn't happen, but why is this never shown on TV? On the contrary, I've seen other coaches saying things, including Djokovic's coach.

I also remember when Nadal played Verdasco at the 09 Aussie Open and all we saw all match was Verdasco screaming and talking directly with his coaches, openly! Then Nadal got an informal warning for coaching, and Nadal said "My coach?! Are you seeing what's going on over there?"

Here it is. Boom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9FnV82E0fM

Nadal is just singled out. It goes on constantly, visibly so. Yet there is zero video evidence of this happening with Nadal. Wish I could see it myself. It also doesn't explain how Nadal wins plenty of tournaments without Toni around (if he supposedly needs him). It's all just insanity.
 
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namelessone

Legend
Why am I surprised that Nadal fans are attacking Wawrinka?
Is calling Wawrinka a hypocrite attacking him? Dude couldn't keep his eyes off his box in the last slams that I saw him in. I'm sure it was just for "emotional support" though. :)

Don't you people see the ridiculousness of the concept "you can break a rule, just don't go overboard with it", when in theory you shouldn't be breaking the rule at all. If Nadal is a cheater, so is Wawrinka and anyone who has ever COMMUNICATED with their box in any way. These aren't my words, just what the rulebook says.
 

namelessone

Legend
Yeah this is right on. Iv'e just never seen it, ever, on TV. Not in Wimbledon, not in the 2010 US Open when the camera was right in Toni's face all match, never. Not saying it doesn't happen, but why is this never shown on TV? On the contrary, I've seen other coaches saying things, including Djokovic's coach.

I also remember when Nadal played Verdasco at the 09 Aussie Open and all we saw all match was Verdasco screaming and talking directly with his coaches, openly! Then Nadal got an informal warning for coaching, and Nadal said "My coach?! Are you seeing what's going on over there?"

Here it is. Boom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9FnV82E0fM

Nadal is just singled out. It goes on constantly, visibly so. Yet there is zero video evidence of this happening with Nadal. Wish I could see it myself. It also doesn't explain how Nadal wins plenty of tournaments with Toni around (if he supposedly needs him). It's all just insanity.
Easy fix, he gets coached by Roig. :)
 

tennis_hack

Banned
Uncle Toni just told him to keep pounding the 1-handed BH
Yeh, cuz Wawrinka's backhand is such a poor and vulnerable shot with no firepower, and he absolutely didn't crank any winners from that wing (teeing off Nadal forehands no less) yesterday?

Btw, Toni will tell Nadal to keep pounding the 2-handed backhand whenever Nadal's up against any rightie with a 2hbh with the possible exception of Djokovic.
 

Russeljones

G.O.A.T.
Is calling Wawrinka a hypocrite attacking him? Dude couldn't keep his eyes off his box in the last slams that I saw him in. I'm sure it was just for "emotional support" though. :)

Don't you people see the ridiculousness of the concept "you can break a rule, just don't go overboard with it", when in theory you shouldn't be breaking the rule at all. If Nadal is a cheater, so is Wawrinka and anyone who has ever COMMUNICATED with their box in any way. These aren't my words, just what the rulebook says.
I see people mocking Wawrinka for pointing out something that's being going on for a long long time. Officials let Nadal off with time wasting and illegal coaching very often (I don't want to say every single match because Toni does not attend them all). I am sure that if he was some Ecuadorian ranked # 478 in the world, he'd be in hot water.

Tha fact that someone can call up analogous instances does not excuse Nadal's behaviour. Only a child's mind works that way.
 

namelessone

Legend
I see people mocking Wawrinka for pointing out something that's being going on for a long long time. Officials let Nadal off with time wasting and illegal coaching very often (I don't want to say every single match because Toni does not attend them all). I am sure that if he was some Ecuadorian ranked # 478 in the world, he'd be in hot water.

Tha fact that someone can call up analogous instances does not excuse Nadal's behaviour. Only a child's mind works that way.
Nadal, before 2005, was an unknown spanish claycourter who barely spoke English,picked his ***,dressed in a weird way and hung around the 40th spot on tour(or even lower sometimes). In a way, he was that ecuadorian that you are talking about. You can bet your *** that he was getting coached back then as well(unless you believe that Tony magically started coaching him in 2005) and yet umps ignored him. Actually, I think he got more coaching warnings when he was famous then when he was an unknown teen. Why do you thinks umps ignored an unknown who was getting coached?

1. Because coaching is a reality of the tour and has been for quite some time now. Umps now this better than anyone. When a guy like Bollettieri says that most juniors he sees get some form of coaching in when matches start then I have no reason to believe that this suddenly stops when they hit the pro level. Coaching simply becomes less blatant but it is still done.

2. The coaching rule is nearly impossible to enforce unless someone is being incredibly blatant with how they break the rule(like Tony vocalizing too much to make himself heard). The rule says that any communication between box and player is forbidden. How the hell do you enforce something like that? Communication could mean actual shouts, encouragement words could be code for certain tactics, hand signals could probably also be used, the ump needs to check and see to where the players are looking(if they are getting "inspiration") etc.

If Tony would use signals like I guess most coaches use(why do you think most players are glued to their box after the point ends or on a challenge call), he wouldn't be fined for coaching but in reality, he would still be doing it.

Wawrinka shouldn't be pointing fingers because he also gets on court coaching. It's ridiculous to say "Hey, that guy was allowed to cheat more than I did".
 
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Russeljones

G.O.A.T.
Nadal, before 2005, was an unknown spanish claycourter who barely spoke English,picked his ***,dressed in a weird way and hung around the 40th spot on tour(or even lower sometimes). In a way, he was that ecuadorian that you are talking about. You can bet your *** that he was getting coached back then as well(unless you believe that Tony magically started coaching him in 2005) and yet umps ignored him. Actually, I think he got more coaching warnings when he was famous then when he was an unknown teen. Why do you thinks umps ignored an unknown who was getting coached?

1. Because coaching is a reality of the tour and has been for quite some time now. Umps now this better than anyone. When a guy like Bollettieri says that most juniors he sees get some form of coaching in when matches start then I have no reason to believe that this suddenly stops when they hit the pro level. Coaching simply becomes less blatant but it is still done.

2. The coaching rule is nearly impossible to enforce unless someone is being incredibly blatant with how they break the rule(like Tony vocalizing too much to make himself heard). The rule says that any communication between box and player is forbidden. How the hell do you enforce something like that? Communication could mean actual shouts, encouragement words could be code for certain tactics, hand signals could probably also be used, the ump needs to check and see to where the players are looking(if they are getting "inspiration") etc.

If Tony would use signals like I guess most coaches use(why do you think most players are glued to their box after the point ends or on a challenge call), he wouldn't be fined for coaching but in reality, he would still be doing it.

Wawrinka shouldn't be pointing fingers because he also gets on court coaching. It's ridiculous to say "Hey, that guy was allowed to cheat more than I did".
You're grasping at straws to excuse the inexcusable again and again. I told you there is no sound logic in making parallels between incidents as a way to exonerate Nadal. Simply put, he is the only systematic offender on Tour.
 

reversef

Hall of Fame
Nadal, before 2005, was an unknown spanish claycourter who barely spoke English,picked his ***,dressed in a weird way and hung around the 40th spot on tour(or even lower sometimes). In a way, he was that ecuadorian that you are talking about. You can bet your *** that he was getting coached back then as well(unless you believe that Tony magically started coaching him in 2005) and yet umps ignored him. Actually, I think he got more coaching warnings when he was famous then when he was an unknown teen. Why do you thinks umps ignored an unknown who was getting coached?

1. Because coaching is a reality of the tour and has been for quite some time now. Umps now this better than anyone. When a guy like Bollettieri says that most juniors he sees get some form of coaching in when matches start then I have no reason to believe that this suddenly stops when they hit the pro level. Coaching simply becomes less blatant but it is still done.

2. The coaching rule is nearly impossible to enforce unless someone is being incredibly blatant with how they break the rule(like Tony vocalizing too much to make himself heard). The rule says that any communication between box and player is forbidden. How the hell do you enforce something like that? Communication could mean actual shouts, encouragement words could be code for certain tactics, hand signals could probably also be used, the ump needs to check and see to where the players are looking(if they are getting "inspiration") etc.

If Tony would use signals like I guess most coaches use(why do you think most players are glued to their box after the point ends or on a challenge call), he wouldn't be fined for coaching but in reality, he would still be doing it.

Wawrinka shouldn't be pointing fingers because he also gets on court coaching. It's ridiculous to say "Hey, that guy was allowed to cheat more than I did".
The problem is that Toni Nadal is not discreet at all, and doesn't want to be. We all know how "special" that man is, and if he thinks he's right, nobody will make him change his mind. Unfortunately. The other players get coaching as well, but their coach will not come with this "Hiding it? at my age? certainly not" kind of attitude.
 

namelessone

Legend
You're grasping at straws to excuse the inexcusable again and again. I told you there is no sound logic in making parallels between incidents as a way to exonerate Nadal. Simply put, he is the only systematic offender on Tour.
Yeah, the only one. :rolleyes:

Let's just wait until Nadal retires. That will cut at least 90% of the coaching on tour.
 

namelessone

Legend
The problem is that Toni Nadal is not discreet at all, and doesn't want to be. We all know how "special" that man is, and if he thinks he's right, nobody will make him change his mind. Unfortunately. The other players get coaching as well, but their coach will not come with this "Hiding it? at my age? certainly not" kind of attitude.
Yeah, Toni is wrong in his approach but I just hate this BS that's brought on to Nadal because he won't hush up like all the other good coaches who coach their students silently. How many times do you go in a Nadal match thread and once the camera is on Toni everybody goes "ha, he is coaching again" but if player x takes long looks at his box way too often no one bats an eyelid. Do they actually believe it's for "emotional support"?

It's like saying that someone who murders someone in public with a knife is more guilty that someone who does it by using a silencer in a back alley.
 

rh310

Hall of Fame
It isn't whether anyone else is doing it. It's whether any other ATP #1 ranked player and GOAT contender has benefitted from such blatant disregard for the rules of the sport they are unfairly extracting such rewards from.

The sociopaths will never see it as anything wrong. But they're sick, twisted people.
 

namelessone

Legend
It isn't whether anyone else is doing it. It's whether any other ATP #1 ranked player and GOAT contender has benefitted from such blatant disregard for the rules of the sport they are unfairly extracting such rewards from.

The sociopaths will never see it as anything wrong. But they're sick, twisted people.
The no coaching rule has ceased to be that a long time ago, when the powers that be decided that they would ignore most communication coming from the box as long as it wasn't too obvious.

Do you think Nadal came onto a tour of law-abiding angels(as a nobody lest we forget, not the Nadal of today) and decided to mess things up with blatant coaching because he felt like it, because he had the stones to do it? Nope, they saw the reality while Nadal was still young and the reality is that a lot of players get some form of coaching in. The Nadals aren't really going against the grain here, well actually they are but only in one way: they are doing what many players already do but they are also admitting it in one way or another. That's a major taboo on tour.

It's funny how you say "it isn't about whether anyone else is doing it ". I thought you caped crusaders defended the rulebook. If so, you should be bothered if nr.4,7,9 break the no coaching rule as much as nr.1 or 400 in the world.
 

reversef

Hall of Fame
Yeah, Toni is wrong in his approach but I just hate this BS that's brought on to Nadal because he won't hush up like all the other good coaches who coach their students silently. How many times do you go in a Nadal match thread and once the camera is on Toni everybody goes "ha, he is coaching again" but if player x takes long looks at his box way too often no one bats an eyelid. Do they actually believe it's for "emotional support"?

It's like saying that someone who murders someone in public with a knife is more guilty that someone who does it by using a silencer in a back alley.
Yes, exactly. You can coach if you want, but do it in the shadow. It's very hypocritical, but I would suggest Tony to act with the same hypcocrisy. I wouldn't be surprised if Rafa had made that request a few times actually. But Toni is Toni.
 

Alex78

Hall of Fame
I am meant to play without my uncle Toni telling me what to do?
Surely, this cannot be real tennis, no?
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Like I said on the other thread, I'd say this surprises me, but it really doesn't. It's just sad that Nadal and his uncle can get away with it. Probably in most part due to the fact that one of the people involved is Rafael Nadal.
 
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sdfedfans

Rookie
Yeah this is right on. Iv'e just never seen it, ever, on TV. Not in Wimbledon, not in the 2010 US Open when the camera was right in Toni's face all match, never. Not saying it doesn't happen, but why is this never shown on TV? On the contrary, I've seen other coaches saying things, including Djokovic's coach.

I also remember when Nadal played Verdasco at the 09 Aussie Open and all we saw all match was Verdasco screaming and talking directly with his coaches, openly! Then Nadal got an informal warning for coaching, and Nadal said "My coach?! Are you seeing what's going on over there?"

Here it is. Boom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9FnV82E0fM

Nadal is just singled out. It goes on constantly, visibly so. Yet there is zero video evidence of this happening with Nadal. Wish I could see it myself. It also doesn't explain how Nadal wins plenty of tournaments without Toni around (if he supposedly needs him). It's all just insanity.
I am not sure exactly what Toni Nadal says to Rafa but it is obvious that he talks a lot during matches.

I went to see the 2010 Murray vs Nadal match at the WTF (incredible match btw) and was only a few rows behind Toni Nadal so could definitely hear that he was saying something. One fan in the crowd near us even yelled "Stop coaching Toni!". I think this was mostly meant as a joke as everyone started laughing but it is obvious to most people that he talks way too much regardless if it is coaching or not.
 

Sartorius

Hall of Fame
I am. Fed also breaks unwritten rules of behaviour by being sometimes quite a sore loser and taking digs at opponents. I'll take Rafa doing what at least half the tour does over those latter things by Fed for sure.
This is gold. Being "sometimes quite a sore loser and taking digs at opponents", which of course is 'sometimes' exaggerated and even made up just to make headlines, versus getting involved with an action which is against the rules, an action that actually affects the game.

Mind you, I don't see Nadal as a "cheater" in any way. I think he's a great guy on and off the court. However, that does not take away the fact that he has been involved with stuff that can directly influence the match. I don't think it's so severe and it clearly doesn't happen every match.

With Federer, he clearly had his moments in the past where he made bad comments and/or looked like a complete fool (saying this as a fan), but again this is clearly not so severe that you can outright call him a "sore loser". He's a pretty pleasant guy and is clearly respected by nearly every player on the tour. Dare I say the sportsmanship award is a valid example to this, the candidates are not picked by the players, but the final pick is clearly theirs.

As is the norm in such things people make a huge deal whenever something "wrong" is done, and the times where something wrong is not done or the moments where something "right" is done are forgotten (this applies to both Fed and Rafa obviously).

The real issue on your post (Crisstti) is that you're trying to take moral high ground for two things that is clearly not the norm for either player. But even if it would be the norm there's something very fishy of the way Nadal is defended here (just as it always stinks when Fed says something stupid and people rush to defend him) . And, much to my amusement I have to say, there's downright something absurd about the tendency to immediately turn the finger on Stan as a "sore loser", and claim the guy said what he said just because he lost. So the player who actually played the match says something happened that shouldn't have happened. He's probably not outright lying, and the people mentioned have a certain history of the action. So we all know that it probably did happen, but it's ok to call him a 'sore loser' and make it look like he's the actualy wrong-doer here. Hmm...
 
The bottom line is the fact that coaching does go on and is allowed by the umps.

Therefore why shouldn't the Nadal team take advantage of it like everyone else does?

The finger of blame is the umps who send the message "it's ok
To receive coaching "

It's like doing 65 mph in a 55 mph zone .....technically not allowed but no one ever gets arrested for it.

In fact I think you can go as high as 70 without ever being pulled over ......
Can you go 75? 80? I don't know
Because the rules are not strictly enforced ......same with The Nadal team....they are not sure exactly how far they are allowed to go.

It's the umps fault for not giving a clear message.
 

scotus

G.O.A.T.
Uncle Toni the Master Tactician

Uncle Toni usually doesn't say anything Rafa needs to know. Rafa pretty much tunes him out and occasionally tells him to can it.

But Uncle Toni keeps talking and talking.

Why?

To get under their opponent's skin. To irritate and anger Rafa's opponent, to get them off the serene state of mind in order to induce unforced errors and throw them off course.

So he perseveres and keeps yapping on. That's Uncle Toni the master tactician.
 

LazyNinja19

Banned
The post match interview of Stan on ATP site doesn't contain any such statements by him.
Is the OP even true? Because the link he has provided doesn't show any video, rather just text.
I'm not too sure, if it's even true in the first place.
 
It just dawned on me ?.........what is exactly the punishment for coaching?

It's such a minor offense that I think all you get is a warning.....and second time .....a second warning. How many warnings do you get? And if all warnings not followed then what happens?

It seems like its about s serious of an offense as jay walking .

All warwinka wanted was a second warning!


Warwinka :

"Today I didn't agree with the umpire that he didn't tell him something or he didn't give him second warning"
 
It just dawned on me ?.........what is exactly the punishment for coaching?

It's such a minor offense that I think all you get is a warning.....and second time .....a second warning. How many warnings do you get? And if all warnings not followed then what happens?

It seems like its about s serious of an offense as jay walking .

All warwinka wanted was a second warning!

Warwinka :

"Today I didn't agree with the umpire that he didn't tell him something or he didn't give him second warning"
I was right guys....coaching is a minor offense.....it's basically equivalent to a parking ticket and is rarely enforced.....it's basically allowed....it has to be really flagrant and after a bunch of warnings for anything to happen:

ATP Rules

Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $5,000 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match, the player shall be penalized in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule. In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, the supervisor shall have the authority to relocate the position of a coach if there is reasonable belief that coaching is occurring or the supervisor may order the coach to be removed from the match site or tournament site and upon his failure to comply with such order, may declare an immediate default of such player.
 
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3fees

G.O.A.T.
Rules are rules yet some chair umpires are strict and some are not. same in about everything.
 
Even if Rafa is accused of 200 homicides, Rafa fans on this forum will try to defend him. :lol:
There's no defense....but I think it's the ATP officials you should be upset at....they allow this sort of thing to happen......

A rule is not a rule if its not enforced.

People Jay walk all the time .....I have yet to see anyone in my life ever get a ticket for Jay walking....yet it's illegal.
 

Rui

Semi-Pro
I'll excuse DK from this rant because he clearly has a bromance with Nadal and is thinking with his heart.

There is no defending cheating (unlike gamesmanshipping where you compete outside your physical sport).

There is no qualifying cheating. There are no instances where it's okay to break the rules.

Since Raftoni agree it's okay to break this rule, it's a stretch to believe that they would draw the line at "juicing."
 
I'll excuse DK from this rant because he clearly has a bromance with Nadal and is thinking with his heart.

There is no defending cheating (unlike gamesmanshipping where you compete outside your physical sport).

There is no qualifying cheating. There are no instances where it's okay to break the rules.

Since Raftoni agree it's okay to break this rule, it's a stretch to believe that they would draw the line at "juicing."
There's no rant?

I'm stating a fact....the rule is not enforced.

And "rules are not rules" as you point out . Some rules are strictly enforced and some are not.

Coaching is regarded as a completely minor offense by officials and they look the other way.

So let the punishment fit the crime.....you don't give someone the electric chair for stealing a hubcap from a car.

You may think it's a serious offense but the ATP does not......maybe they will in the future but for now they just don't care.
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
LOL at folks accusing Stan.

There are rules that are being blatantly abused using Nadal's top ranked status and yet it is Stan under fire for pointing out ?

Nadal camp yet again at its cheating best .
Exactly... It's hilarious that people are blaming Stan for pointing out cheating.
 

Graf=GOAT

Professional
Even if Rafa is accused of 200 homicides, Rafa fans on this forum will try to defend him. :lol:
Precisely. Gotta give credit to him, though. His PR machine paid off. At this point all the media ignores his blatant gamesmanship, discounts every loss due to injuries and proclaims him GOAT every time he wins a title. Disgusting, really.
 

mptennis

Rookie
The bottom line is the fact that coaching does go on and is allowed by the umps.

Therefore why shouldn't the Nadal team take advantage of it like everyone else does?

The finger of blame is the umps who send the message "it's ok
To receive coaching "

It's like doing 65 mph in a 55 mph zone .....technically not allowed but no one ever gets arrested for it.

In fact I think you can go as high as 70 without ever being pulled over ......
Can you go 75? 80? I don't know
Because the rules are not strictly enforced ......same with The Nadal team....they are not sure exactly how far they are allowed to go.

It's the umps fault for not giving a clear message.
Try to use that as an excuse if you get pulled over and see if it works. Edit: wait until you have your driver's license to do this in about 3 years.

Rules are rules. Regardless of their enforcement, they are still the law, and if you don't obey them, you're breaking the rules. If fans want to overlook or justify their favorite player's flaws, that's fine, but it doesn't make the player any less wrong.
 
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Try to use that as an excuse if you get pulled over and see if it works. Edit: wait until you have your driver's license to do this in about 3 years.

Rules are rules. Regardless of their enforcement, they are still the law, and if you don't obey them, you're breaking the rules. If fans want to overlook or justify their favorite player's flaws, that's fine, but it doesn't make the player any less wrong.
What is "wrong" ?

If its actually allowed then its not "wrong".....you are not the moral monitor.
 
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