Wayne Odesnik BANNED again for DOPING (15 year ban lol)

Crisstti

Legend
What on earth are you on about?

You don't think it's within the realms of possibility that the top guys in tennis dope, when lower ranked guys such as Odesnik get caught? You don't think ITF has an economical interest in not seeing the top players get caught?

Sorry to burst your bubble, Naive Nancy.

"Within the reals of possibility" barely means anything at all. It doesn't make it even likely.

Sorry, but you haven't busted anyone's "bubble".

Got a pass from taking meth-amphetamine.. When he was out of competition as well.

I also fail to see how this would aid a player's tennis career and I can also see why the ITF/ATP would turn a blind eye to it. It isn't the same thing as doping.

Exactly. Not the same at all.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
You don't think it's within the realms of possibility that the top guys in tennis dope, when lower ranked guys such as Odesnik get caught?

It is much easier for lower ranked guys to get away with it. Top guys are always being watched.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Indeed. Not to mention, they have less to lose if caught.

That is why the logic that more doping must be happening at higher levels is flawed. Even the slightest rumor will cause repercussions. Just see how a squeaky clean player like Nadal is constantly targeted on this forum.
 
Indeed. Not to mention, they have less to lose if caught.

Sureshs is trolling, but I know that you are serious, so I have to call BS on your logic.

They have less to lose but the guys who are at the top of the sport have more to win.

Why do you think "guys" like Carl Lewis, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones doped untiul they were caught, despite their extremely successful careers.

Jeez, this VB neverending naive attitude towards doping is something. :roll:
 

vernonbc

Legend
Not unlike the notorious case of one Mr. Armstrong in cycling. Got away with it for at least a decade, and only encountered his downfall when there eventually was no way of hiding anymore. :mad:

But he didn't get away with it for a decade. For years there was talk and accusations against him from his teammates and other people closely involved with him as well as all the other teams. It was well known that Armstrong, and most of cycling, was dirty. There is no comparison to tennis.

The American star-making machine mitigated a lot of those accusations because America is good at putting people up on pedestals (and tearing them down again) and Lance played that publicity machine very well. However, he admitted that what brought him down was when cycling instituted out of competition testing and the biological passport.

Tennis has had both for a number of years and in fact, tennis' PED testing is far more stringent that almost all other major league sports...and most workplaces such as pilots and truck drivers and people working with heavy machinery. Are there PEDs in tennis? Probably, because ordinary fallible human beings are involved in the game, but tennis is doing a good job of catching as many of them as they can.
 
But he didn't get away with it for a decade. For years there was talk and accusations against him from his teammates and other people closely involved with him as well as all the other teams. It was well known that Armstrong, and most of cycling, was dirty. There is no comparison to tennis.

What are you talking about?

Armstrong got away with it for a decade and I would venture to say that, should he have stayed retired and not imposed his arrogance once again attempting to comeback at the same level, it should have stayed like that for unknown period of time.

The American star-making machine mitigated a lot of those accusations because America is good at putting people up on pedestals (and tearing them down again) and Lance played that publicity machine very well. However, he admitted that what brought him down was when cycling instituted out of competition testing and the biological passport.

That is not what brought him down.

Tennis has had both for a number of years and in fact, tennis' PED testing is far more stringent that almost all other major league sports...and most workplaces such as pilots and truck drivers and people working with heavy machinery. Are there PEDs in tennis? Probably, because ordinary fallible human beings are involved in the game, but tennis is doing a good job of catching as many of them as they can.

Can you give proof of that?

You can further elaborate on how whatever PED testing is done is a guarantee for doping-free tennis.

:-?
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
But he didn't get away with it for a decade. For years there was talk and accusations against him from his teammates and other people closely involved with him as well as all the other teams. It was well known that Armstrong, and most of cycling, was dirty. There is no comparison to tennis.

The American star-making machine mitigated a lot of those accusations because America is good at putting people up on pedestals (and tearing them down again) and Lance played that publicity machine very well. However, he admitted that what brought him down was when cycling instituted out of competition testing and the biological passport.

Tennis has had both for a number of years and in fact, tennis' PED testing is far more stringent that almost all other major league sports...and most workplaces such as pilots and truck drivers and people working with heavy machinery. Are there PEDs in tennis? Probably, because ordinary fallible human beings are involved in the game, but tennis is doing a good job of catching as many of them as they can.

That is not what brought him down at all! What brought him down was the fact that he came out of retirement yet again to try and win another race and one of Armstrong's former teammates, Floyd Landis who was caught doping and suspended for two years, wanted a job on Armstrong's new cycling team (the RadioShack team) and Armstrong rejected him telling him he did not want a cyclist who was dumb enough to get caught on his team. That was the last straw for Landis and after that Landis decided to tell the truth about his doping and all of the doping he had seen including Armstrong's.

Had Armstrong stayed retired, he would have probably never been outed and had his teammates turn on him. His arrogance and poor treatment of others was the final nail in his coffin. Out of competition testing and the biological passport had nothing to do with him being caught in the end. He was protected by the cycling governing body and by big sponsors.

What are you talking about?

Armstrong got away with it for a decade and I would venture to say that, should he have stayed retired and not imposed his arrogance once again attempting to comeback at the same level, it should have stayed like that for unknown period of time.



That is not what brought him down.

You are correct. Some people seem to be so misinformed on this case. There are a couple of really good documentaries out there about Armstrong which are very informative.
 
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SLD76

G.O.A.T.
That is not what brought him down at all! What brought him down was the fact that he came out of retirement yet again to try and win another race and one of Armstrong's former teammates, Floyd Landis who was caught doping and suspended for two years, wanted a job on Armstrong's new cycling team (the RadioShack team) and Armstrong rejected him telling him he did not want a cyclist who was dumb enough to get caught on his team. That was the last straw for Landis and after that Landis decided to tell the truth about his doping and all of the doping he had seen including Armstrong's.

Had Armstrong stayed retired, he would have probably never been outed and had his teammates turn on him. His arrogance and poor treatment of others was the final nail in his coffin. Out of competition testing and the biological passport had nothing to do with him being caught in the end. He was protected by the cycling governing body and by big sponsors.



You are correct. Some people seem to be so misinformed on this case. There are a couple of really good documentaries out there about Armstrong which are very informative.

Yup. Two of them are on Netflix
Slaying the Badger which is more about Greg LeMond but touches on Armstrong.

Stop at Nothing which has actual footage of the Armstrong deposition. Powerful stuff. Armstrong is a pure vindictive sociopath and manipulator.
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
You're a damned fool.

Top ranked guys can afford the best doctors and the latest undetectable drugs, not to mention knowing that they will be protected to protect the sport.

The lower ranked guys are sacrificial lambs to give the appearance of being tough on doping.
The lower ranked guys are also more likely to use very strong PEDs, which leads to them being caught easily..

I don't think players at the very top dope though. They obviously take the sport way too seriously to throw all of that away.
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Look at my signature!

:lol:
Armstrong, to me, is scum. Sucking people into his web of lies by allowing them to feel sorry for him and his fight for survival with cancer. Meanwhile, he is taking performance enhancing substances in order to be the best at his sport.
 

SLD76

G.O.A.T.
The lower ranked guys are also more likely to use very strong PEDs, which leads to them being caught easily..

I don't think players at the very top dope though. They obviously take the sport way too seriously to throw all of that away.
Yeah..it's not like it's worth it for tens of millions in prize money and endorsements.

* severe eye roll*
 
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Deleted member 21996

Guest
now we need to start cracking in the top where the pure evil dopers reside
 

*Sparkle*

Professional
Sureshs is trolling, but I know that you are serious, so I have to call BS on your logic.

They have less to lose but the guys who are at the top of the sport have more to win.

Why do you think "guys" like Carl Lewis, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones doped untiul they were caught, despite their extremely successful careers.

Jeez, this VB neverending naive attitude towards doping is something. :roll:

I half agree with you. Clearly, those examples exist, so there are at least some people in that position who would do it, but I know that if I were brilliant at tennis, I'd not want to risk getting caught. Then again, I don't think I'd want to win if I could only do so by cheating.

That said, I can imagine how I might be tempted if I was a struggling player, building up debts and with low risks of getting tested, especially if I stuck to doing it out of competition while on a training camp in the back of beyond where I can hide out somewhere if the testers come unexpectedly. If the worst comes to the worst, I'll use the 'I bought the wrong supplements' excuse, and while I might face a ban, I won't have to deal with too big a scandal.

If I were a top player, I'd be terrified about getting caught, and the fall-out that would result. I can't see me ever being motivated to risk it, if I was already financially comfortable. I know there are things that might make doping easier for a top player, but it's wrong to presume that all top athletes share the same mentality when it comes to the risks of getting caught doping.

Armstrong is a pure vindictive sociopath and manipulator.

This is what I mean. One of the defining features of a sociopath is they don't fear consequences of getting caught. There is something in the way their brains are wired that means they just don't properly connect the dots between their crime and potential punishment. This is one of the reasons they are invariably likely to reoffend, regardless of the threat of sever punishment, and I'd include the shame of getting caught with that.

The fact is, unless we are convinced that all tennis players are sociopaths, comparing their attitudes with those of Armstrong is irrelevant.

The stuff about how he got away with it, and cover-ups is more relevant.
 

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
A very recommend read on this particular matter: Tyler Hamilton's The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France: Doping, Cover-ups, and Winning at All Costs, especially for those who still believe we're dealing with a 'minor doping problem' in sports.

Truly shocking.
 

vanioMan

Legend
A very recommend read on this particular matter: Tyler Hamilton's The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France: Doping, Cover-ups, and Winning at All Costs, especially for those who still believe we're dealing with a 'minor doping problem' in sports.

Truly shocking.

Every top athele in nearly every sport is using some "stuff". That's not really something new.
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Yeah..it's not like it's worth it for tens of millions in prize money and endorsements.

* severe eye roll*
Not when you have to give most of it back when you're caught.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
That's not what I find so shocking about Tyler Hamilton's book - the level/number of manipulation, backstabbing, threats, lawsuits, etc. is.

And you don't think people exaggerate in these books?

Do you believe everything you read?

You do realise they're trying their best to stir controversy to get people interested in what they're selling?
 

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
And you don't think people exaggerate in these books?

Do you believe everything you read?

You do realise they're trying their best to stir controversy to get people interested in what they're selling?

I see no reason to believe Hamilton was exaggerating. Mind you, he was a culprit himself, and talks about the various processes of doping in very fine details, which only one who was involved himself would know.

He got threatened by TONS of law suits once book came out. Not merely from Armstrong's camp. Guess what? He won them all, as far as those concerned that ever made it to the courts.
Did you even read it?
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
I see no reason to believe Hamilton was exaggerating.

So you say that ^^

And then provide this:

Mind you, he was a culprit himself, and talks about the various processes of doping in very fine details, which only one who was involved himself would know.

Don't you see that this guy is trying to make it look like everyone else is also a culprit? To try and take some of the heat off himself and SELL.

He got threatened by TONS of law suits once book came out. Not merely from Armstrong's camp. Guess what? He won them all.
Did you even read it?

No I didn't read it, I have better things to do in my life.

I don't have to read it, there are many occasions where people exaggerate and stir controversy for sales. It's common sense.

Him winning lawsuits doesn't mean anything at all.
 

Alien

Hall of Fame
There seems to be a mob that wants to hang Odesnick. Come on, relax. He was banned. That is enough. He has not killed anyone, OK? He is not a villain or whatever, just a guy that took a wrong decision out of who knows what pressure, and he got the suspension. That is enough, you judges.

As for Armstrong, my personal view is that he should have been let free of charges. Yes he cheated by confession. But he was never caught in the controls which is the way to catch a doper. He was more astute, so be it.

As for companies demanding him to give back endorsement money, that is unfair. Those companies sold a lot out of his image thanks to him, doped or not doped. So if he has to give back the money (again, I dont see why, he helped to sell) then they have to give back the money to consumers.

Not ot mention prize money. He played, helped the tournament sell those tickets and TV rights. So be it, he must keep it.

I know I can receive some stones myself but so be it. All is virtual here.
 

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
There seems to be a mob that wants to hang Odesnick. Come on, relax. He was banned. That is enough. He has not killed anyone, OK? He is not a villain or whatever, just a guy that took a wrong decision out of who knows what pressure, and he got the suspension. That is enough, you judges.


I know I can receive some stones myself but so be it. All is virtual here.

Unfortunately for you, the fact that you've missed the repercussions of a cheater reaping the rewards in the place of honest players is far from virtual. It's a very real representation of your value system.
 

britam25

Hall of Fame
The lower ranked guys are also more likely to use very strong PEDs, which leads to them being caught easily..

I don't think players at the very top dope though. They obviously take the sport way too seriously to throw all of that away.

You mean, like the top athletes in track and field, baseball, and cycling?
 
Odesnik's explanation for his transgression the 2nd time around was predictably pathetic but it makes you think how Andy Murray would've reacted on twitter if say someone like Cilic got done a 2nd time too..... and in reasonably quick time like Odesnik for his 1st and 2nd offence.Granted,Marin's case was a controversial one but if he screws up again in the next year or so do you ever think that Murray would type 'Good Riddance' to Cilic.

Maybe.. maybe not.Easy to crucify someone like Odesnik when he's a nobody on the tour.Just hope everyone show the same consistency for if/when the top players also get busted.Spare nobody damnit.

The same 'Good Riddance' type mantra should've been applied to Agassi as well.
 

FD3S

Hall of Fame
Odesnik's explanation for his transgression the 2nd time around was predictably pathetic but it makes you think how Andy Murray would've reacted on twitter if say someone like Cilic got done a 2nd time too..... and in reasonably quick time like Odesnik for his 1st and 2nd offence.Granted,Marin's case was a controversial one but if he screws up again in the next year or so do you ever think that Murray would type 'Good Riddance' to Cilic.

Maybe.. maybe not.Easy to crucify someone like Odesnik when he's a nobody on the tour.Just hope everyone show the same consistency for if/when the top players also get busted.Spare nobody damnit.

The same 'Good Riddance' type mantra should've been applied to Agassi as well.

I think more people are willing to give a pass to Agassi because crystal meth isn't a performance enhancing drug*. By the rules though, he should have been suspended for three months, IIRC.

*And for the people who think it is because of the rush it gives the user, and they're certainly out there - do some damn research.
 

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
Odesnik's explanation for his transgression the 2nd time around was predictably pathetic but it makes you think how Andy Murray would've reacted on twitter if say someone like Cilic got done a 2nd time too..... and in reasonably quick time like Odesnik for his 1st and 2nd offence.Granted,Marin's case was a controversial one but if he screws up again in the next year or so do you ever think that Murray would type 'Good Riddance' to Cilic.

Maybe.. maybe not.Easy to crucify someone like Odesnik when he's a nobody on the tour.Just hope everyone show the same consistency for if/when the top players also get busted.Spare nobody damnit.

The same 'Good Riddance' type mantra should've been applied to Agassi as well.

How you can involve Cilic, in this context, is unfathomable.
 

Alien

Hall of Fame
Unfortunately for you, the fact that you've missed the repercussions of a cheater reaping the rewards in the place of honest players is far from virtual. It's a very real representation of your value system.

You are right. My value system is you cheat you get suspended. That doesnt involve moral or person public executions. Yours seems to be he got doped lets behead him or ´send him to North Korea´.
 

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
You are right. My value system is you cheat you get suspended. That doesnt involve moral or person public executions. Yours seems to be he got doped lets behead him or ´send him to North Korea´.

Remember you said this
He is not a villain or whatever, just a guy that took a wrong decision out of who knows what pressure, and he got the suspension.

He denied others the opportunity to compete and earn points and prize money. You can't fix that with a "sorry" or with a "suspension". Nobody is calling for his head, but his peers are definitely well within bounds to be angry about it. Anyone who brings the sport they love into disrepute should not be let lightly off.
 

Alien

Hall of Fame
Remember you said this


He denied others the opportunity to compete and earn points and prize money. You can't fix that with a "sorry" or with a "suspension". Nobody is calling for his head, but his peers are definitely well within bounds to be angry about it. Anyone who brings the sport they love into disrepute should not be let lightly off.

15 years of suspension (or career termination in practice) doesnt look light to me. Its OK and enough IMO. We forget this is just a trivial sport and he is not a killer.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
15 years of suspension (or career termination in practice) doesnt look light to me. Its OK and enough IMO. We forget this is just a trivial sport and he is not a killer.

It is an over-reaction to the fundamental human right of ingesting what we want. These PEDs are simply chemicals. What is the difference between that and wearing prescription glasses? In both cases, you are enhancing your ability in an artificial manner. The punishment should fit the crime.
 

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
It is an over-reaction to the fundamental human right of ingesting what we want. These PEDs are simply chemicals. What is the difference between that and wearing prescription glasses? In both cases, you are enhancing your ability in an artificial manner. The punishment should fit the crime.

I suppose that makes sense in a part of the world where even **** can be rationalized.
 

FD3S

Hall of Fame
It is an over-reaction to the fundamental human right of ingesting what we want. These PEDs are simply chemicals. What is the difference between that and wearing prescription glasses? In both cases, you are enhancing your ability in an artificial manner. The punishment should fit the crime.

This is true. On the other hand, one of your cases is prohibited by the governing body of an organization whereas the other is not. Your opinion on whether or not PED's should be regulated is another discussion altogether, but as it stands now Odesnik broke the rules, and thanks to his first offense he's eating a 15 year suspension and a justified roasting from his peers.
 
K

King Fed WW

Guest
Why on earth would 3 of the top 4 invite former champions like Edberg, Becker and Lendl into their camps if they are definitely doping? (If we assume that that era weren't doping which I think a lot on this board do) There's no guarantee they could keep it from them in that close quarters and I'm sure past players would have no problem dropping current players in it when they are affecting their own legacy.

Yeah sure, they're getting paid nicely to coach but it is still far too risky to think that would keep them quite. (and certainly not once the coaching job ends)

Unless Edberg and Becker were also dopers. :twisted: But yeah your right.

That is why I think that if Fed is doping so was Sampras. The reason, Paul Annacone.

But yeah, overall your right. I think such coaching relations make me think they are not.

@andyroddick
@andrewikesports my feelings are that he's a ******bag and I hate that he has a US flag next to his name when he's cheating. Good riddance

@andy_murray
Bye bye Wayne... Good riddance


http://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/wayne-odesnik-banned-for-drugs-tennis-world-rejoices/story-fndkzym4-1227268921712

Confirmation these two are clean. Though anyone who thinks Murray is a doper is clueless anyway.



But he didn't get away with it for a decade. For years there was talk and accusations against him from his teammates and other people closely involved with him as well as all the other teams. It was well known that Armstrong, and most of cycling, was dirty. There is no comparison to tennis.


Tennis has had both for a number of years and in fact, tennis' PED testing is far more stringent that almost all other major league sports...and most workplaces such as pilots and truck drivers and people working with heavy machinery. Are there PEDs in tennis? Probably, because ordinary fallible human beings are involved in the game, but tennis is doing a good job of catching as many of them as they can.

1st part Yes, everyone who knew cycling knew he was doping.

2nd part, sadly have to disagree. I think 2014 saw tennis step up its testing effort but before hand, it was pretty poor. Little ooc tests, few blood test and no biological passport. However they seemed to have stepped it up well. I agree that is better than major league sports, as the NA sports all have shocking (if improving) testing systems. I read NBA only just introduced blood testing lol.



Regarding National Federations doing the testing. This creates problems, while UKADA may be very effective, are the Swiss anti-doping? Who tests Federer when he trains in Dubai or Djokovic in Monaco?

Sports is never going to be able to eliminate doping but it can try its best to reduce/ limit it. These gives clean athletes a chance and makes sure everyone doesn't have to dope. Cycling has done this, still loads of cheats but well better than the 90s and clean cyclists can now compete and win.
 
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Beacon Hill

Hall of Fame
Not when you have to give most of it back when you're caught.
For many athletes the choice is:
1) Take drugs in order to have a chance at earning millions and being famous, but run the risk of getting caught.
2) Don't take drugs and have no chance of earning millions and being famous.
We know what choice Armstrong and many others made.
 
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Alien

Hall of Fame
It is an over-reaction to the fundamental human right of ingesting what we want. These PEDs are simply chemicals. What is the difference between that and wearing prescription glasses? In both cases, you are enhancing your ability in an artificial manner. The punishment should fit the crime.


Interesting angle. Camila Giorgi´s father said they should be allowed to dope and risk their own body (he clarified he would not let Camila do it). It is a problem because the more dopers would become top players (theoretically) and would die young (the famous live fast die young lol). For athletes it would be too hard, they all would be pushed to do it. As spectator, it is the same, or spectacle may even improve :shock:

Other potential discussion could be, should all those drugs be banned ? Like recreational marihuana, coke or crystal meth which I dont think enhance performance ? Or just steroids? I clarify I am not a physician so I could be wrong in this last respect (what does enhance and what not).
 

Beacon Hill

Hall of Fame
Interesting angle. Camila Giorgi´s father said they should be allowed to dope and risk their own body (he clarified he would not let Camila do it). It is a problem because the more dopers would become top players (theoretically) and would die young (the famous live fast die young lol). For athletes it would be too hard, they all would be pushed to do it. As spectator, it is the same, or spectacle may even improve :shock:

Other potential discussion could be, should all those drugs be banned ? Like recreational marihuana, coke or crystal meth which I dont think enhance performance ? Or just steroids? I clarify I am not a physician so I could be wrong in this last respect (what does enhance and what not).
Drug rules in sports are often illogical. Caffeine, which everyone knows is a stimulant and performance enhancing, is perfectly acceptable.
 

silentkman

Hall of Fame
The guy had to cheat to make a living. he made about 120K a year playing tennis. The USTA said that it cost 140K to play on the tour. A wasted career.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
You don't think it's within the realms of possibility that the top guys in tennis dope,...
Nice 'putting words in someone else's mouth'. I never said that.

But without proof, and since you started the silly name calling, you're just a Bitter Barry.

I just don't like the innuendo. A lot of out of shape people have no clue that one can get in great shape without any illegal substances. The top pros have demonstrated Discipline - so until I see proof, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
 

PBODY99

Legend
Wayne was lucky he wasn't arrested for international drug smuggling. That said, I just want to know what over the counter item got him banned? He can now go to work in pharmaceutical sales as a pitchman. "So strong,, the ITF will ban you for using it."
 

racquetreligion

Hall of Fame
Guillermo Cañas his coach! explains it all, personally see now how Fed lost consecutively to him in the past. Cañas case should be reviewed.

Wow.

Andy feels really strongly about this. :???:

Muzza should stick to twitter and so should his other halve to avoid the piranha look as it gives them more time to think yet look good.

Odesnik's explanation .... was predictably pathetic but it makes you think how Andy Murray would've reacted on twitter if say someone like Cilic got done a 2nd time too..... and in reasonably quick time like Odesnik for his 1st and 2nd offence.Granted,Marin's case was a controversial one but if he screws up again in the next year or so do you ever think that Murray would type 'Good Riddance' to Cilic.
The same 'Good Riddance' type mantra should've been applied to Agassi as well.

Funny how Andre had the same style of physique as Cañas at his best later in life. Im guessing there is way too much to lose for the Tennis big wigs if Cilic is now found guilty and just staying away to keep the urine clean from new testing tech on masking drugs.

Its hard not to think Drugs is well administered if the right money is paid to the right people to look away or know all about it but enjoy the fruits.

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.jp/2011/04/odesnik-strong-but-canas-stronger.html

B74110B23EA54AACBD0D583C40F10A94.ashx


OdesnikandCanas.jpg
 
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So you say that ^^

And then provide this:



Don't you see that this guy is trying to make it look like everyone else is also a culprit? To try and take some of the heat off himself and SELL.

Everything he said was confirmed by others, so, what is your point?

No I didn't read it, I have better things to do in my life.

I don't have to read it, there are many occasions where people exaggerate and stir controversy for sales. It's common sense.

Him winning lawsuits doesn't mean anything at all.

Well, you didn't read it and you have a strong prejudice against what he has written, before you even know it.

Clearly, you have a strong reason to choose not to believe in something that is a proven fact and with which you even are unacquainted with.

:roll:
 
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