We are screwed ... the Pickleballers are coming

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
It is XL table tennis. Tennis would take a lot less skill if you had oversize rackets and beach balls.
Table Tennis is complicated by the extreme effects of spin which are considerably greater than they are in tennis.

The effect is that incoming spin affects the outgoing shot by far more than any of the other racquet sports. So you have to make adjustments for the incoming spin by watching how your opponent strikes the ball. Closely.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
It is XL table tennis. Tennis would take a lot less skill if you had oversize rackets and beach balls.



Lets see. Annoying sound. Encroaches on tennis court space. Takes parks and rec budget from tennis.

If you want tennis to die, promote pickleball.

I have no problem with pickleball as a game. It's impact on my ears and on tennis is what bothers me.
I play tennis near the street sometimes. It's way louder then pickleball. There is something wrong with tennis players if they can't take few clink kind of noises. When I played next to three pickleball courts in Florida the sound didn't bother me a single bit. Learn some mental toughness if you can't take sound.

The sad thing is pickleball seems like a great sport for you..from what I gathered about your proposed changes to tennis..
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I play tennis near the street sometimes. It's way louder then pickleball. There is something wrong with tennis players if they can't take few clink kind of noises. When I played next to three pickleball courts in Florida the sound didn't bother me a single bit. Learn some mental toughness if you can't take sound.

The sad thing is pickleball seems like a great sport for you..from what I gathered about your proposed changes to tennis..
No way is the sound the same. In the desert, half the courts are pickleball and half tennis at our complex. The Pickleball is far louder. It's like hoofbeats on cobblestone. The first tee for golf is near the courts and you used to never hear anything from the courts until pickleball moved in. I totally disagree about the noise difference.

And I'm sure i'd like pickleball about as much as I like badminton, squash and ping pong. Fun diversions every once in a while. But as a sportsman that loves the feel/feedback aspect to sports, hitting a plastic ball with a solid paddle has no sensory excitement compared to a well struck topspin shot, or a pure'd 5 iron, or carving through an untracked powder field. I'll stick to golf, tennis and snowboarding for now. :)
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
The headache is when the Picklball people lay down tape on the tennis courts, use the courts and then leave the tape there so that they can play there in the future. So that tennis players can trip on the tape or peel it up. My club solved the problem between the Pickleball and Tennis players by moving Pickleball to the basketball courts. Of course the basketball players weren't happy with that.
 
I don't understand why people hat pickleball so much.
It's human nature to categorize others to establish a hierarchy. Maybe tennis players feel inferior to basketball/football/soccer players and so have to protect their ego by insulting Pickleballers.

I have no inferiority complex about tennis to defend and therefore have no superiority complex to project.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
It's human nature to categorize others to establish a hierarchy. Maybe tennis players feel inferior to basketball/football/soccer players and so have to protect their ego by insulting Pickleballers.

I have no inferiority complex about tennis to defend and therefore have no superiority complex to project.
Last I checked, basketball/football/soccer players, weren't playing on tennis courts.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@PKorda
Last I checked, basketball/football/soccer players, weren't playing on tennis courts.
Not my experience. On the tennis courts that I frequent, I've seen futboltennis (football tennis) being played more than I've seen pickleball on tennis courts. It's played by football (soccer) players with a soccer ball (or a smaller soccer ball) or by tennis players, often with a tennis ball. Have seen plenty of ATP & WTA players as well as amateur players playing this soccer variation on a tennis court.

Pickleball had been played indoors (on badminton courts) as well as outdoors. Perhaps there's more pickleball courts here then in some other areas. So not seeing pickleball being played on tennis courts very often -- except for high school PE classes.

 

mtommer

Hall of Fame
...Your argument is called the slippery slope fallacy, and is logically not sound.
Please just stop with this ridiculous notion as a justification for dismissal. Slippery slope is the same thing as moving the goalposts. Whether it fits into a "logical" construct for a debate has no bearing on whether it actually happens in real life.
 

PKorda

Rookie
@PKorda

Not my experience. On the tennis courts that I frequent, I've seen futboltennis (football tennis) being played more than I've seen pickleball on tennis courts. It's played by football (soccer) players with a soccer ball (or a smaller soccer ball) or by tennis players, often with a tennis ball. Have seen plenty of ATP & WTA players as well as amateur players playing this soccer variation on a tennis court.

Pickleball had been played indoors (on badminton courts) as well as outdoors. Perhaps there's more pickleball courts here then in some other areas. So not seeing pickleball being played on tennis courts very often -- except for high school PE classes.

Curious where you live? I'm guessing football tennis is a European thing? I live in the U.S. and there were people playing this on a tennis court this summer when there was a long line for tennis and people almost came to blows. I had personally never seen anyone play this before (let alone when the tennis courts were packed).
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
@PKorda

Not my experience. On the tennis courts that I frequent, I've seen futboltennis (football tennis) being played more than I've seen pickleball on tennis courts. It's played by football (soccer) players with a soccer ball (or a smaller soccer ball) or by tennis players, often with a tennis ball. Have seen plenty of ATP & WTA players as well as amateur players playing this soccer variation on a tennis court.

Pickleball had been played indoors (on badminton courts) as well as outdoors. Perhaps there's more pickleball courts here then in some other areas. So not seeing pickleball being played on tennis courts very often -- except for high school PE classes.

I didn't see a football, basketball or soccer ball there. I assume that they also have permission to do whatever they are doing there. We have tennis courts with signs that they are for tennis only. People, of course, ignore those signs from time to time.

At my private club you'll get thrown off the court for doing stuff that isn't sanctioned by the club.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@PKorda
I didn't see a football, basketball or soccer ball there. I assume that they also have permission to do whatever they are doing there...
Think you missed the point there. It was meant to be one of many examples of where tennis courts are used for something other than tennis. The video I posted is probably just an impromptu game of football tennis. Doubt that they bothered to get any special permission to specifically play football tennis. In this case, they're using a tennis ball but I've also seen tennis players and soccer players using larger balls in pretty much the same manner. I've seen plenty of ATP and WTA players doing this with their coaches or hitting partners -- often as part of their practice time on the court.

There are plenty of Hispanic, Brazilian and European futbol / soccer players in this area = South (SF) Bay Area and SF Peninsula. I don't know what's happening on the private club courts since I haven't been to any in 2+ years. I'm seeing football tennis played on public tennis courts in the area.
 
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bobleenov1963

Professional
The headache is when the Picklball people lay down tape on the tennis courts, use the courts and then leave the tape there so that they can play there in the future. So that tennis players can trip on the tape or peel it up. My club solved the problem between the Pickleball and Tennis players by moving Pickleball to the basketball courts. Of course the basketball players weren't happy with that.
Imposing heavy fine will easily solve this problem. At one of my $500/month gym/tennis/swimming club, people used to reserve tennis courts and not showing up. They didn't even bother calling in because you only pay $5/hour to use the tennis court. The club solved this problem by imposing a $200 fine for people who reserved the tennis court but didn't show up. If they can't show up for whatever reasons, they have to call in or go online at least 30 minutes to cancel the reservation prior to the start time.

Hit them in the pocket where it hurt and they will remove the tape of the tennis court when they are done. Easy solution.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Please just stop with this ridiculous notion as a justification for dismissal. Slippery slope is the same thing as moving the goalposts. Whether it fits into a "logical" construct for a debate has no bearing on whether it actually happens in real life.
It's a fallacy to believe that slippery slope is always a fallacy. I am not kidding.

A slippery slope argument is not always a fallacy. A slippery slope fallacy is an argument that says adopting one policy or taking one action will lead to a series of other policies or actions also being taken, without showing a causal connection between the advocated policy and the consequent policies. A popular example of the slippery slope fallacy is, "If we legalize marijuana, the next thing you know we'll legalize heroin, LSD, and crack cocaine." This slippery slope is a form of non sequitur, because no reason has been provided for why legalization of one thing leads to legalization of another. Tobacco and alcohol are currently legal, and yet other drugs have somehow remained illegal.
It's perfectly reasonable to believe that the widespread adoption of pickleball will lead to the removal of tennis courts for example..
 

GuyClinch

Legend
No way is the sound the same. In the desert, half the courts are pickleball and half tennis at our complex. The Pickleball is far louder. It's like hoofbeats on cobblestone. The first tee for golf is near the courts and you used to never hear anything from the courts until pickleball moved in. I totally disagree about the noise difference.

And I'm sure i'd like pickleball about as much as I like badminton, squash and ping pong. Fun diversions every once in a while. But as a sportsman that loves the feel/feedback aspect to sports, hitting a plastic ball with a solid paddle has no sensory excitement compared to a well struck topspin shot, or a pure'd 5 iron, or carving through an untracked powder field. I'll stick to golf, tennis and snowboarding for now. :)
So a rubber ball covered with nylon (plastic) "fur" against plastic strings is much better feeling then a plastic ball against a solid paddle? This is pure opinion - and that's fine. But pickleball is a better sport for shorter immobile players.. And that is while its going to be very popular. Tennis is biased towards taller then average athletic men.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Golf is not a sport. As much as I hate pickle ball, I rank golf below pickle.
A round of golf is a 5 mile hike. Doubles pickleball is unlikely to burn anywhere near that number calories. I'd rank Golf way ahead of pickleball. Neither needs foot speed, both need hand-eye and hand speed, only golf needs endurance.

Cart golf and doubles pickleball are even though. I'll give you that.

So a rubber ball covered with nylon (plastic) "fur" against plastic strings is much better feeling then a plastic ball against a solid paddle? This is pure opinion - and that's fine. But pickleball is a better sport for shorter immobile players.. And that is while its going to be very popular. Tennis is biased towards taller then average athletic men.
It's more the sensation of hitting the ball on the sweet spot which is a real thing and not an opinion. There is a palpable sweetspot in tennis, golf, baseball and you know it when you hit it. You don't tend to get that from a paddle.

And I understand why people play pickleball. I also understand why I'll never get as addicted to it as I am to golf, tennis and snowboarding. The difficult to achieve reward of the perfect shot or perfect line that keeps you coming back. That's the thing that releases the dopamine in my brain and drives the addiction.
 

PKorda

Rookie
A round of golf is a 5 mile hike. Doubles pickleball is unlikely to burn anywhere near that number calories. I'd rank Golf way ahead of pickleball. Neither needs foot speed, both need hand-eye and hand speed, only golf needs endurance.

Cart golf and doubles pickleball are even though. I'll give you that.



It's more the sensation of hitting the ball on the sweet spot which is a real thing and not an opinion. There is a palpable sweetspot in tennis, golf, baseball and you know it when you hit it. You don't tend to get that from a paddle.

And I understand why people play pickleball. I also understand why I'll never get as addicted to it as I am to golf, tennis and snowboarding. The difficult to achieve reward of the perfect shot or perfect line that keeps you coming back. That's the thing that releases the dopamine in my brain and drives the addiction.
A hike? Maybe if you’re climbing in and out of every sand trap and walking though the woods on every hole. Now I’ve never seen you play so maybe but for most people not a hike.
 
Some context:

We used to have a dozen+ quality public tennis courts you could play on. Today ... other than our fantastic public tennis center (about $10 for an hour and a half), you really can't find a freshly surfaced public court. So it was pretty good news to hear that the city had recently resurfaced a couple of courts. That was ... until I heard of ... and saw this:




Not great pics ... was evening so let me describe. Tennis court on the right as usual. If you look close on the left, you can see the 2nd tennis court net that is not used only to separate two pickleball courts from the other two. As you can see, the pickleball courts run perpendicular to the tennis courts ... so all pickleballs that go past the defender goes to the tennis court. Same risk the other way ... all of these pickleballers risk stepping on a tennis ball.

The Pickleballers are coming ... this should not be a duel purpose space (talking country, not the court :p)
Some context:

We used to have a dozen+ quality public tennis courts you could play on. Today ... other than our fantastic public tennis center (about $10 for an hour and a half), you really can't find a freshly surfaced public court. So it was pretty good news to hear that the city had recently resurfaced a couple of courts. That was ... until I heard of ... and saw this:




Not great pics ... was evening so let me describe. Tennis court on the right as usual. If you look close on the left, you can see the 2nd tennis court net that is not used only to separate two pickleball courts from the other two. As you can see, the pickleball courts run perpendicular to the tennis courts ... so all pickleballs that go past the defender goes to the tennis court. Same risk the other way ... all of these pickleballers risk stepping on a tennis ball.

The Pickleballers are coming ... this should not be a duel purpose space (talking country, not the court :p)
Even in the indoor drill tonight at the club they have them. Even had to hit shots at the blue line.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
A hike? Maybe if you’re climbing in and out of every sand trap and walking though the woods on every hole. Now I’ve never seen you play so maybe but for most people not a hike.
I live near the mountains with plenty of courses that have lots of elevation change. Carrying a 30 lb bag. Most certainly a hike. Even flat courses are at least a good walk compared to standing still playing doubles pickle.
 

sovertennis

Professional
It's perfectly reasonable to believe that the widespread adoption of pickleball will lead to the removal of tennis courts for example..
And, coincidentally, I had a discussion about this yesterday with a city councilor at the small city where I live and coach tennis on a public court. Apparently, the local pickle ballers have organized and are lobbying the city council to build more pickleball-only courts. Resurfacing some existing tennis courts and converting them to pickleball-only has been discussed in their meetings.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
- Eliminate all high school and college sports
- football stadium $$,$$$,$$$,$$$ -> teacher salaries
- all adult sports pay to play

discuss/digust 8-B

Well ... I thought that would have stirred up a discussion ... let me add the following:

Our city developed an awesome tennis center (public ... with reasonable hourly rates). Only happened because of a rich donor, city also contributed funding. Part of the city agreement was much of their contribution would come from the public park court funding.

Great facility and courts ... prefer playing there over my old club. So does everyone else. Many summer weeks a year junior tournaments fill the courts. We all support junior tennis ... that adds to keeping tennis alive and growing. On those weeks, virtually impossible to book a court. Also ... always dedicated courts for lessons. So on those weeks a tax paying adult tennis player might go and play their matches on a public park court. But there isn’t hardly any in good enough condition to play on ... and the few will often be filled with tennis instructors teaching adult tennis lessons.

I was so lucky to start tennis when there were great free public courts all over town. Then I was a club member for 20+ years, and never thought much about public courts. Our new public tennis facility is awesome, and the managers personal friends. They do all kinds of free clinics, racquets, shoes for young kids trying to introduce them to tennis.

So I for one miss the era of free quality courts across town. But if I try and justify everyone’s taxes going to tennis players (do 1% of us play tennis?) tax funded courts ... not sure I can. Take the park near my house. Most that uses the park benefit from the parking lot, the concrete path, upkeep including pond and mowing. Many use the covered area for group gatherings. But tennis court ... very small percentage, constantly needs to be resurfaced, no one around to keep skateboarders off. To be honest ... walking path lights and security would be $ better spent. I guess you could raise the entire tax funding question to tax funded parks in the first place. What percentage of the population ever visits a park? We all need healthcare ... we don’t all need parks.

There is a sign up in my park asking the question ... “what do you want in your parks”?
 
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Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
We all need healthcare ... we don’t all need parks.
Parks are health care.

US health care model is far too disease and treatment focused and not enough is focused on preventative medicine. Public exercise spaces need more tax money and promotion, not less. Obesity has led to a decline in the survival of American men in particular over their first world peers.

America really needs to put tax money into nutritional education and fostering exercise habits rather than investing in expensive treatments that buy people a few months of added life. A healthy lifestyle will add a decade to most peoples lives at a fraction of the cost to the taxpayer.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Parks are health care.

US health care model is far too disease and treatment focused and not enough is focused on preventative medicine. Public exercise spaces need more tax money and promotion, not less. Obesity has led to a decline in the survival of American men in particular over their first world peers.

America really needs to put tax money into nutritional education and fostering exercise habits rather than investing in expensive treatments that buy people a few months of added life. A healthy lifestyle will add a decade to most peoples lives at a fraction of the cost to the taxpayer.
So ... Dart pro tax funded parks (I assume regardless of the percentage that end up using them).

You didn’t cast your vote regarding public funded tennis courts ... let’s narrow that to public funded park tennis courts.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
So ... Dart pro tax funded parks (I assume regardless of the percentage that end up using them).

You didn’t cast your vote regarding public funded tennis courts ... let’s narrow that to public funded park tennis courts.
Anything that provides activity I'm in favor of. If parks aren't getting used that rather than get rid of the park, create incentives to use it through advertising, sponsored events, etc. Need to get people out and about.

So yes, tax funded tennis courts I'm strongly in favor of.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Anything that provides activity I'm in favor of. If parks aren't getting used that rather than get rid of the park, create incentives to use it through advertising, sponsored events, etc. Need to get people out and about.

So yes, tax funded tennis courts I'm strongly in favor of.
Free cheeseburgers and fries will get many here to the park. 8-B We could require them to walk the mile loop before they got it.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
So ... Dart pro tax funded parks (I assume regardless of the percentage that end up using them).

You didn’t cast your vote regarding public funded tennis courts ... let’s narrow that to public funded park tennis courts.
Much of the public finds tennis too difficult to master. Many will attempt it but cannot sustain a rally and, as a result, do not get a whole lot of exercise or enjoyment from it.

Sports like ping pong, badminton, soft tennis and pickleball are easier sports to learn for most. Easier to reach a respectable intermediate level. Better for the masses I dare say.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Much of the public finds tennis too difficult to master. Many will attempt it but cannot sustain a rally and, as a result, do not get a whole lot of exercise or enjoyment from it.

Sports like ping pong, badminton, soft tennis and pickleball are easier sports to learn for most. Easier to reach a respectable intermediate level. Better for the masses I dare say.
So ... free tax funded badminton and pickleball at the parks ... but no tennis. Whoa ... my 2018 thread just took an ugly turn.

fyi ... if failure to maintain a rally was a ttw standard ... we would lose half our posters. 8-B
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
So ... free tax funded badminton and pickleball at the parks ... but no tennis. Whoa ... my 2018 thread just took an ugly turn.

fyi ... if failure to maintain a rally was a ttw standard ... we would lose half our posters. 8-B
Hit the ball. Pick it up. Hit the ball. Pick it up. If that's the standard for TT posters, then perhaps half of them should quit tennis and take up pickleball.
Why are you dumping on my game?
Had not realized that you were not enjoying your tennis.
 

BH40love

Rookie
Some context:

We used to have a dozen+ quality public tennis courts you could play on. Today ... other than our fantastic public tennis center (about $10 for an hour and a half), you really can't find a freshly surfaced public court. So it was pretty good news to hear that the city had recently resurfaced a couple of courts. That was ... until I heard of ... and saw this:




Not great pics ... was evening so let me describe. Tennis court on the right as usual. If you look close on the left, you can see the 2nd tennis court net that is not used only to separate two pickleball courts from the other two. As you can see, the pickleball courts run perpendicular to the tennis courts ... so all pickleballs that go past the defender goes to the tennis court. Same risk the other way ... all of these pickleballers risk stepping on a tennis ball.

The Pickleballers are coming ... this should not be a duel purpose space (talking country, not the court :p)
This is unbelievable and truly sad to see :/

they put some pickle ball courts in nearby some tennis courts in my neighborhood but they at least by the basketball court. The pickleballers are everywhere it sucks
 
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