Weakest mens player to win 2 slam titles in last 30 years?

Weakest player to win 2 Grand Slams in last 15 years?


  • Total voters
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Who do you believe is the weakest mens singles player to win 2 slam titles in the last 15 years?

These are the players who have won 2 slam titles in the last 15 years:

Yevgeny Kafelnikov-1996 French Open and 1999 Australian Open
Sergei Bruguera-1993 and 1994 French Open
Patrick Rafter-1997 and 1998 U.S Open
Lleyton Hewitt-2001 U.S Open and 2002 Wimbledon
Rafa Nadal-2005 and 2006 French Open
Marat Safin-2000 U.S Open and 2005 Australian Open
 
I don´t think any player to win 2 Grand Slams can be considered as "weak".
And I don´t think it´s accurate to compare Nadal (who is 20 y.o.) with former players.
 
I don´t think any player to win 2 Grand Slams can be considered as "weak".
And I don´t think it´s accurate to compare Nadal (who is 20 y.o.) with former players.

I think Nadal is the best of that group since he is only 20 and has already won 2 slams. However those were the only 6 so I thought I might as well include all as options.

I do think Kafelnikov is a big of a joke of a 2-time slam winner and by far the weakest of that group.
 
I dunno if you wanna call anyone who can win a Grand Slam weak but of that group I would call Sergi Bruguera one of the weaker lefties I have seen. He was soooo good on clay but anything else he was blah. Make it three GS titles and you can add Kuerten.
 
I think Lleyton is the weakest of the bunch mentioned. Not that he is a weak player. I think that's where you missed the point, Zaragoza.
 
here are the win/loss records:

Nadal 192-55, 78%

Hewitt 441-138, 76%

Kafelnikov 609-306, 67%

Rafter 358-191, 65%

Safin 354-205, 64%

Bruguera 447-271, 62%

and here is what one time slam winner Roddick has:

370-117, 76%
 
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Thanks for posting the win percentages. I suspected Hewitt and Roddick would be well in front of the others of those names, although Roddick isnt on the poll of course. I believed Rafter, Kafelnikov, and Bruguera would probably be lower.

In fairness to Bruguera, more then any of the others, there is one surface he is great on and concentrated almost all his efforts towards, and nothing else of too much priority. Even Nadal puts more effort into trying to be an all surface player, with mixed success so far. Rafter was a late bloomer who chose to retire while still in his prime IMO, and probably could have improved his career winning % had he chosen to continue a few more years, and even won another slam or two, since he was still a major contender at all slams except the French when he chose to retire. I would have loved to see Rafter and Hewitt play in the 2002 Wimbledon final potentialy.
 
In fairness to Bruguera, more then any of the others, there is one surface he is great on and concentrated almost all his efforts towards, and nothing else of too much priority. Even Nadal puts more effort into trying to be an all surface player, with mixed success so far. Rafter was a late bloomer who chose to retire while still in his prime IMO, and probably could have improved his career winning % had he chosen to continue a few more years, and even won another slam or two, since he was still a major contender at all slams except the French when he chose to retire. I would have loved to see Rafter and Hewitt play in the 2002 Wimbledon final potentialy.

Your logic is just so strange. Why fairness to Bruguera? He is only one on that list who virtually had no success on other surfaces.
 
You are a big joke yourself.

I don't see why Kalfenikov is weaker than any other player on that list. At least he won 2 slams on 2 different surfaces.

He didnt even win a Masters title. He didnt have any big wins to win his 2 slams really, his biggest win was beating Todd Martin, a 0-time slam winner himself, in the 99 Australian Open quarters, and a worn out Sampras on his worst surface in the 96 French Open semis. He wasnt impressive playing the top players head to head generaly speaking. His game wasnt that impressive for a champion player either, he had an all around game with no one exceptional quality, and mentaly he was one of the weakest of all slam winners.
 
Thanks for the W-L stats Moose. They confirm my feeling that Bruguera is the weakest 2-slam winner among those listed here.

With apologies to !Tym ;).
 
Your logic is just so strange. Why fairness to Bruguera? He is only one on that list who virtually had no success on other surfaces.

I just meant I would take his career winning % vs others with a grain of salt since he specialized mainly on one surface unlike alot of the others. His standard as a player on his surface of obvious specialty though is probably as high or higher then the all-surface guys, either in general, or on their best surfaces.
 
I just meant I would take his career winning % vs others with a grain of salt since he specialized mainly on one surface unlike alot of the others. His standard as a player on his surface of obvious specialty though is probably as high or higher then the all-surface guys, either in general, or on their best surfaces.

Just follow your own logic for a second, a player specializing on one surface is "stronger" than all surface player? What crap is that?
 
Well, Kafelnikov did probably have the least impressive wins at those 2 slams compared to the others(not his fault off course you can only beat who is on the other side of the net)

at the '96 French, Muster was the huge favorite & lost early. Sampras made the semis with some epic wins & was exhausted vs Kafelnikov in the semis- that was basically like a walkover. played Stich, not exactly an alltimer on clay in the final. even Kafelnikov said he was surprised that he won because clay is his weakest surface(& his record on clay in later years backed that up)
Later in '96 Kafelnikov played Muster on clay & was destroyed, so I think luck of the draw is an appropriate summary of that slam(he was destroyed by Muster at the '95 French as well)

at the '99 Australian, Sampras skipped it, Agassi lost early & Kafelnikov beat Enqvist in the final. He thanked sampras for not playing that year in his speech.

all the other slam winners on that list beat some really great players en route to the title, even Bruguera beat Courier(who was the heavy favorite) at the '93 French. We all know who Safin beat to win his slams. Rafter beat Agassi & Sampras to win his. Nadal beat Federer, Hewitt beat Sampras(& was year end #1 twice)

Kafelnikov never won a really big match against a top player in a slam, despite winning 2. he never won a masters series as well, which is sort of interesting, since they often have tougher draws than slams.
 
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Well, Kafelnikov did probably have the least impressive wins at those 2 slams compared to the others(not his fault off course you can only beat who is on the other side of the net)

at the '96 French, Muster was the huge favorite & lost early. Sampras made the semis with some epic wins & was exhausted vs Kafelnikov in the semis- that was basically like a walkover. played Stich, not exactly an alltimer on clay in the final. even Kafelnikov said he was surprised that he won because clay is his weakest surface(& his record on clay in later years backed that up)
Later in '96 Kafelnikov played Muster on clay & was destroyed, so I think luck of the draw is an appropriate summary of that slam.

at the '99 Australian, Sampras skipped it, Agassi lost early & Kafelnikov beat Enqvist in the final. He thanked sampras for not playing that year in his speech.

all the other slam winners on that list beat some really great players en route to the title, even Bruguera beat Courier(who was the heavy favorite) at the '93 French. We all know who Safin beat to win his slams. Rafter beat Agassi & Sampras to win his. Nadal beat Federer, Hewitt beat Sampras(& was year end #1 twice)

Kafelnikov never won a really big match against a top player in a slam, despite winning 2. he never won a masters series as well, which is sort of interesting, since they often have tougher draws than slams.

I guess I just don't follow logic like that. Muster lost to Stich, who lost to Kalfenikov in final. So Kalfenikov's win is least impressive? We need to re-evaluate Agassi's French Open title, I guess.

You would have a point if none of the favorite showed up in the tournament.
 
If Federer loses early at a non clay slam this year, whoever ends up winning it, you will hear the same. Muster was a huge favorite that year, one of the biggest in tournament history & owned Kafelnikov. I don't Kafelnikov really thinks he would have beaten Muster that year either:

1995 Barcelona
Spain Clay S Muster 6-3 6-3

1995 Roland Garros
France Clay S Muster 6-4 6-0 6-4

1996 Stuttgart Outdoor
Germany Clay F Muster 6-2 6-2 6-4
(this was only a month after Kafelnikov won the French, so...)

Agassi beat Moya at '99 French, who was the defending champion, certainly more impressive than any of Kafelnikov's slam wins.
 
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Kaf'kov had some of the best strokes ever, he is certainly a worthy slam winner. Nadal's game is too one dimensional compared to YK's
 
This seems to me to be a schoolboy thread I'm afraid.

All of the players mentioned above have made a significant contribution to the recent history of Tennis.

Let's see:

Kafelnikov has an olympic gold medal
Safin has won two Davis Cups
Hewitt has won two Davis Cups
Rafter played in two Wimbledon finals and two Davis Cup finals
Nadal is 20 years old
Brugera's career was blighted by injuries at a young age.

None of those players are (were) weak

Let's come up with more positive threads and not negative ones for no apparent reason other than boredom.
 
This seems to me to be a schoolboy thread I'm afraid.

All of the players mentioned above have made a significant contribution to the recent history of Tennis.

Let's see:

Kafelnikov has an olympic gold medal
Safin has won two Davis Cups
Hewitt has won two Davis Cups
Rafter played in two Wimbledon finals and two Davis Cup finals
Nadal is 20 years old
Brugera's career was blighted by injuries at a young age.

None of those players are (were) weak

Let's come up with more positive threads and not negative ones for no apparent reason other than boredom.


Amen Brother
 
This seems to me to be a schoolboy thread I'm afraid.

All of the players mentioned above have made a significant contribution to the recent history of Tennis.

Let's see:

Kafelnikov has an olympic gold medal
Safin has won two Davis Cups
Hewitt has won two Davis Cups
Rafter played in two Wimbledon finals and two Davis Cup finals
Nadal is 20 years old
Brugera's career was blighted by injuries at a young age.

None of those players are (were) weak

Let's come up with more positive threads and not negative ones for no apparent reason other than boredom.

Once again, the argument is not that these guys are weak players!!!! It's about who's the weakest of the ones mentioned! Why can people not get that???
 
Bruguera could only win on clay. The seeding committee rolled their eyes when they had to seed him on other surfaces. Kavelnikov had such poor training habits its hard to imagine how he ever won even two. But, he did have some upsets in his career, and was always considered a threat. So, I'd have to go with Bruguera.

Hewitt wasn't physically as strong as some, but he was mentally tough and very fast. He wiped Sampras off the court one GS Final. Safin trains worse than Kavelnikov. He was just too talented NOT to win a slam. Nadal's speed makes him a threat to get at least to the quarters on all surfaces. Rafter, I think, was the most talented, and probably would have won a couple of more if not for the nagging shoulder.
 
When Kafelnikov came out (i saw him fisrt in a DC tie with Rafter and the Aussies), he looked like the new Agassi with a more athletic and bigger figure, and a better serve. Had quick hands and fantastic returns. I don't know, what went wrong with him. Maybe he went for the money and the fast life, and he played way too much, not caring about wins and losses, and never really focussing on the big events. He never improved his serve, which remained a weak point. But he was a real all surface player, who even could play on grass.
 
absurd....any 2-time grand slam winner cannot really be considered "weak"

but i suppose brugera was pretty "weak"....hewitt, safin, and nadal shouldnt even be in the poll

rafter shouldnt even get a vote...he was not weak at all...he also made back to back wimbledon finals and if not for sampras and a spirited ivanisevic....rafter might have had 4 slams
 
Well, Kafelnikov did probably have the least impressive wins at those 2 slams compared to the others(not his fault off course you can only beat who is on the other side of the net)

at the '96 French, Muster was the huge favorite & lost early. Sampras made the semis with some epic wins & was exhausted vs Kafelnikov in the semis- that was basically like a walkover. played Stich, not exactly an alltimer on clay in the final. even Kafelnikov said he was surprised that he won because clay is his weakest surface(& his record on clay in later years backed that up)
Later in '96 Kafelnikov played Muster on clay & was destroyed, so I think luck of the draw is an appropriate summary of that slam(he was destroyed by Muster at the '95 French as well)

at the '99 Australian, Sampras skipped it, Agassi lost early & Kafelnikov beat Enqvist in the final. He thanked sampras for not playing that year in his speech.

all the other slam winners on that list beat some really great players en route to the title, even Bruguera beat Courier(who was the heavy favorite) at the '93 French. We all know who Safin beat to win his slams. Rafter beat Agassi & Sampras to win his. Nadal beat Federer, Hewitt beat Sampras(& was year end #1 twice)

Kafelnikov never won a really big match against a top player in a slam, despite winning 2. he never won a masters series as well, which is sort of interesting, since they often have tougher draws than slams.

that's all very nice and thank for posting it,but what I don't understand is the logic behind this.So..we judge a player mostly based on who he won to win his Slams??:confused: So,yeah perhaps Kafelnikov had an easier way to the final but does that make him weaker than all the other players?
 
Bruguera could only win on clay. The seeding committee rolled their eyes when they had to seed him on other surfaces. Kavelnikov had such poor training habits its hard to imagine how he ever won even two. But, he did have some upsets in his career, and was always considered a threat. So, I'd have to go with Bruguera.

Hewitt wasn't physically as strong as some, but he was mentally tough and very fast. He wiped Sampras off the court one GS Final. Safin trains worse than Kavelnikov. He was just too talented NOT to win a slam. Nadal's speed makes him a threat to get at least to the quarters on all surfaces. Rafter, I think, was the most talented, and probably would have won a couple of more if not for the nagging shoulder.

Bruguera beat Sampras in Lipton semi in 1997, one of Pete's best years
 
As someone stated before, ANYONE who wins a slam is not weak. And, upsets do happen. Bruguera had a couple of really great wins. I'm just saying that out of the list, I feel he's the "weakest" of those.
 
Safin (and then closely followed by Kaf) is the only logical choice here but that doesn't prevent the usual knee jerk fanboy replies:

Kafelnikov - This guy was the real deal.
Rafter - Back 2 Back Opens

Safin - Inconsistent Inconsistent Inconsistent Inconsistent

Hewitt - 2 Slams within 9 months of each other
Nadal - Back 2 Back RG
Bruguera - Back 2 Back RG
 
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Thanks to all who voted, it is interesting to see the results so far. Although Bruguera is definitely not a top choice for me, I suspected he would get alot of votes just from my general impression of how people regard these players. I did not though expect him to lead the votes by so much, over double the next most.

I am not big on Kafelnikov's talents and I am kind of pleased to see him get alot of votes, the 2nd most. I really feel he lucked out to even win 2 slams and am kind of puzzled how he even pulled that off.

I am a bit surprised Rafter has the least. He was a late bloomer who quit in his prime, and had limited success in general as far as late showings in alot of the slam events. I thought he would be higher in the votes then he is. Still he was very entertaining and fun to watch for a few years.

Safin I thought might get more votes then he has too.

I did not expect Hewitt or Nadal to get many at all since they are the best players of this group IMO. Hewitt two year end #1s and titles at the two biggest slams, Nadal so much succes already so young compared to mostly retired or past halfway done players.
 
I don´t think any player to win 2 Grand Slams can be considered as "weak".
And I don´t think it´s accurate to compare Nadal (who is 20 y.o.) with former players.

Don't worry man, if Nadal wins the French again this poll will be re-titled the weakest players to win 3 slam titles.
 
Don't worry man, if Nadal wins the French again this poll will be re-titled the weakest players to win 3 slam titles.

Did you read the thread? Can you see past your own bias sometimes? Did you see what the OP posted very very early on in the thread?

I think Nadal is the best of that group since he is only 20 and has already won 2 slams. However those were the only 6 so I thought I might as well include all as options.

I do think Kafelnikov is a big of a joke of a 2-time slam winner and by far the weakest of that group.
 
I would rate Bruguera weakest myself, but not in terms of talent. The guy played on a hard court only ONE time in his whole entire life by the time he turned 18. You don't think that would have something to do with why he was so adverse to playing outside clay? They only put hard courts in Spain for the 92 Olympics facility. Had he not been around, and not had some measure of talent, I don't think guys like Moya and Corretja and Nadal would have had the opportunity they did to simultaneously hybrid their game for hard courts.

In terms of pure talent and athleticism he was without a doubt elite in my opinion. He beat Rafter serving and volleying at Wimbledon before Rafter went downhill. In fact, McEnroe said that was the match that really started him reeling. He did win an Olympic silver medal in his worst season by far (before the injuries and burnout finally got to him). Prior to 93 he had a serious back problem, basically the same one that took Moya from the top during his "slumping" years. He was as Malivai Washington said a guy whose body wouldn't hold up and he was always battling injury.

At the 94 year ending Masters semis, he had Becker teetering on the verge of a straight sets defeat in front of a rabid home town crowd. Had he not got nervous at the end of the second set, Becker himself said he would have beat him, and Becker was NOT playing bad at all. Remember, this was when the indoor courts were LIGHTNING fast as compared to now, and who in the history of tennis has had a wristier forehand? It's one of the most difficult shots to try and emulate from a biomechanical standpoint as there ever was in my opinion. That he could pull that technique off as he did against pro pace is nothing to be sneezed at.

In the 93 year ending championships, he was up 5-love on Sampras and just two points from a 6-0 set. He won the set 6-1, then in the beginning of the third Sampras just bowed down to Bruguera mockingly because he was on such a roll (he had just scored another return at his feet). He lost the match by one break in the third, but it was more because of slight carelessness, that break, it was still a very tight set.

At the end of 94, he was one of the hottest indoor players on the circuit to close that year out. In 93, he also had some very good indoor results.

Again, this is NOT like now, indoor courts back then were ridiculously fast back then.

He played Leconte indoors in one very well played indoor match, when Leconte was bowing down to Bruguera after some amazing flair shots.

He also had very soft hands around net, and very good feel. He toyed with Courier in basically his first or second senior tournament on clay, hitting almost nothing but drop shots and drop volleys. I mean his winning percentage was basiically like 100% when going for these.

He also could rip some of the hardest groundies of anyone when he wanted too. Again, as Mal said, he's always had the ability to end points flat out and go for big shots like that, he just chose not too. He was selective about it. There are not many players in history who could generate his max racket head speed when he decided to let go.

His backahnd return was very good. And overall as Tony Trabert said, when he's on with his backhand, it's one of the best and most versatile in the game. He did not just have the big forehand. No one in history has been able to hit the amount topspin he could on a two-handed backhand when he wanted too. He could hit topspin two-handed moonballs like no one else, yet he could also take it on the rise, hit open stance two-handers, take it on the rise, and also just stroke a clean winner. His backhand pass was unbelievable, because he had pinpoint control but more importantly as Cliff Drysdale said you couldn't read the direction of it, he could hold it till the last second because of the unique cocked wrist take back he had.

Where he was crippled was his forehand return on faster surfaces. Because his technique was so extreme, he had to basically just chip it back. That was a limitation of his technique though and not talent.

There is NO WAY Rafter was more talented than him in my opinion. Rafter could not have been anything but a serve and volleyer in my opinion. Rafter relied on his superior mental tenacity (which Bruguera wasn't) and athleticism at net, but he was NO Stefan Edberg. He did not have any outstanding attributes from the baseline, Bruguera at least had soft hands. He did not have a good stick volley, but at least he had one redeeming innate trate that could have been developed more had he chosen that route or been brought up in Australia say.

Bruguera had he grown up on grass or hard courts in my opinion, could still have been a top serve and volleyer. Rafter on the other hand, would have been able to be a top player only through serve and volley though. Just my opinion.

Bruguera's also the only two-time ATP Comeback Player of the Year, which again speaks to a guy whose body just didn't hold up well. Pure talent though, he was up there. Don't let the assumption that oh a guy uses a western grip, therefore he's not "truly" talented like someone who uses more classical strokes. That's what bugs me so much, ANYONE who uses a full western grip or heavy topspin is almost universally considered to have lesser talent. And I just don't get it, this from someone who was originally sold the gospel of the classical technique bias in my "formative" years. And can now play both styles, at a very high level. It really IS as Robert Landsdorp himself says. The elite clay court guys are every bit as talented as guys like Sampras and Agassi but no one will ever know it, because the extreme techniques they've been taught ruin them at the pro level, in so far as they'll never be able to consistently excel outside clay because of it. Those techniques limit their ability to quickly react against pace, but it is NOT because of lack of talent. It's a limitiation of the *technique*. That is a HUGE distinction, yet the myth that no clay courter is truly talented next to these fabled "all-surface" players persists. As Landsdorp says, you can have more classical techqniue and still adapt to clay, but you can NOT truly adapt to faster surfaces. Three of the four slams, PLUS the year ending championship, PLUS the Lipton back when it was considered the "fifth slam" and big fish, are ALL hard courts or faster. You may say well some hard courts are slower than others, and that maybe, but it's still a hard court. This is why Landsdorp refuses to ever teach the western grip. With an extreme western technique you've only got a chance to be great on one surface and nowhere else, and again it is NOT because of INNATE, natural born talent, either. Think of the coincidences. Guys with more classical technique like Medevedev and Kafelnikov and Lendl and Korda all were fine on clay. And why is that? Because having more time to react (which less extreme technique ALWAYS gives you) is NEVER a disadvantage in tennis. Yet, flip the coin now, and has there EVER in the history of tennis been a TRUE extreme techniquer (which Borg was/is NOT...his technique was NOT that extreme relatively speaking) who was able to become a "legend" type player. Nope, as far as I can recall never. And if there has been, it sure has been exceedingly rare. Again, not just a coincidence. Are you telling me there has NEVER been a truly elite talent extreme techniquer in all this time and with soooo many players having been trained that way growing up? Again, I really don't think so. Again, just go ask Landsdorp if some might think I'm just being biased.

Agassi himself was so impressed with Bruguera's ability when he first saw him, that he flew him to Las Vegas from Spain on his private jet to train with him. He would not have done that for Rafter. Rafter developed a game and mental toughness that was more conducive to a wider pallete of "results" in tennis, but in pure talent, I just don't see it. Give me Edberg, Krajicek, Korda, or Stich any day over him, and yes, also Kafelnikov, Forget, Medvedev, Chang (pound for pound, he's up there with the best ever in my opinion, the guy was 5'6" for goodness sakes), and Bruguera (one of the pound for pound most talented, extreme grippers ever in my opinion) over Rafter any day.

And the thing is I have nothing against Rafter personally. I just never saw him though as being anything much more than a reasonably talented but more so extremely athletic and very hard competiting lunch bucket type. In fact, if he didn't play serve and volley tennis, which is so revered by so many as somehow being indicative of a true talent and form of tennis, I really don't think anyone would see him as much more than a grinder...like, gaps, Thomas Muster. Who is his baseline, extreme gripper, equivalent in my opinion.

And yet, NO ONE ever gives Muster as being talented EVER, as they are more inclined to do with Rafter. Again, NO ONE in the history of tennis has been able to hit a huge topspin moonball one-handed backhand like Muster. People always say how difficult a high ball is for a one-hander. Yet, Muster at 5'11" treated that like nothing. Again, he gets ZERO credit it for though when NO ONE else in history has been able to make such an incredibly difficult shot easy. Again, there's just such a bias. And believe me Muster, was incredibly irritated by that bias and for good reason too...maybe if Muster had Rafter's charming smile, and swash buckling hair, and golden tan, and charismatic eyes...people would think hey maybe what he's doing does take a little more talent than I can imagine or have been lead to believe?
 
I would rate Bruguera weakest myself, but not in terms of talent. The guy played on a hard court only ONE time in his whole entire life by the time he turned 18. You don't think that would have something to do with why he was so adverse to playing outside clay? They only put hard courts in Spain for the 92 Olympics facility. Had he not been around, and not had some measure of talent, I don't think guys like Moya and Corretja and Nadal would have had the opportunity they did to simultaneously hybrid their game for hard courts.

In terms of pure talent and athleticism he was without a doubt elite in my opinion. He beat Rafter serving and volleying at Wimbledon before Rafter went downhill. In fact, McEnroe said that was the match that really started him reeling. He did win an Olympic silver medal in his worst season by far (before the injuries and burnout finally got to him). Prior to 93 he had a serious back problem, basically the same one that took Moya from the top during his "slumping" years. He was as Malivai Washington said a guy whose body wouldn't hold up and he was always battling injury.

At the 94 year ending Masters semis, he had Becker teetering on the verge of a straight sets defeat in front of a rabid home town crowd. Had he not got nervous at the end of the second set, Becker himself said he would have beat him, and Becker was NOT playing bad at all. Remember, this was when the indoor courts were LIGHTNING fast as compared to now, and who in the history of tennis has had a wristier forehand? It's one of the most difficult shots to try and emulate from a biomechanical standpoint as there ever was in my opinion. That he could pull that technique off as he did against pro pace is nothing to be sneezed at.

In the 93 year ending championships, he was up 5-love on Sampras and just two points from a 6-0 set. He won the set 6-1, then in the beginning of the third Sampras just bowed down to Bruguera mockingly because he was on such a roll (he had just scored another return at his feet). He lost the match by one break in the third, but it was more because of slight carelessness, that break, it was still a very tight set.

At the end of 94, he was one of the hottest indoor players on the circuit to close that year out. In 93, he also had some very good indoor results.

Again, this is NOT like now, indoor courts back then were ridiculously fast back then.

He played Leconte indoors in one very well played indoor match, when Leconte was bowing down to Bruguera after some amazing flair shots.

He also had very soft hands around net, and very good feel. He toyed with Courier in basically his first or second senior tournament on clay, hitting almost nothing but drop shots and drop volleys. I mean his winning percentage was basiically like 100% when going for these.

He also could rip some of the hardest groundies of anyone when he wanted too. Again, as Mal said, he's always had the ability to end points flat out and go for big shots like that, he just chose not too. He was selective about it. There are not many players in history who could generate his max racket head speed when he decided to let go.

His backahnd return was very good. And overall as Tony Trabert said, when he's on with his backhand, it's one of the best and most versatile in the game. He did not just have the big forehand. No one in history has been able to hit the amount topspin he could on a two-handed backhand when he wanted too. He could hit topspin two-handed moonballs like no one else, yet he could also take it on the rise, hit open stance two-handers, take it on the rise, and also just stroke a clean winner. His backhand pass was unbelievable, because he had pinpoint control but more importantly as Cliff Drysdale said you couldn't read the direction of it, he could hold it till the last second because of the unique cocked wrist take back he had.

Where he was crippled was his forehand return on faster surfaces. Because his technique was so extreme, he had to basically just chip it back. That was a limitation of his technique though and not talent.

There is NO WAY Rafter was more talented than him in my opinion. Rafter could not have been anything but a serve and volleyer in my opinion. Rafter relied on his superior mental tenacity (which Bruguera wasn't) and athleticism at net, but he was NO Stefan Edberg. He did not have any outstanding attributes from the baseline, Bruguera at least had soft hands. He did not have a good stick volley, but at least he had one redeeming innate trate that could have been developed more had he chosen that route or been brought up in Australia say.

Bruguera had he grown up on grass or hard courts in my opinion, could still have been a top serve and volleyer. Rafter on the other hand, would have been able to be a top player only through serve and volley though. Just my opinion.

Bruguera's also the only two-time ATP Comeback Player of the Year, which again speaks to a guy whose body just didn't hold up well. Pure talent though, he was up there. Don't let the assumption that oh a guy uses a western grip, therefore he's not "truly" talented like someone who uses more classical strokes. That's what bugs me so much, ANYONE who uses a full western grip or heavy topspin is almost universally considered to have lesser talent. And I just don't get it, this from someone who was originally sold the gospel of the classical technique bias in my "formative" years. And can now play both styles, at a very high level. It really IS as Robert Landsdorp himself says. The elite clay court guys are every bit as talented as guys like Sampras and Agassi but no one will ever know it, because the extreme techniques they've been taught ruin them at the pro level, in so far as they'll never be able to consistently excel outside clay because of it. Those techniques limit their ability to quickly react against pace, but it is NOT because of lack of talent. It's a limitiation of the *technique*. That is a HUGE distinction, yet the myth that no clay courter is truly talented next to these fabled "all-surface" players persists. As Landsdorp says, you can have more classical techqniue and still adapt to clay, but you can NOT truly adapt to faster surfaces. Three of the four slams, PLUS the year ending championship, PLUS the Lipton back when it was considered the "fifth slam" and big fish, are ALL hard courts or faster. You may say well some hard courts are slower than others, and that maybe, but it's still a hard court. This is why Landsdorp refuses to ever teach the western grip. With an extreme western technique you've only got a chance to be great on one surface and nowhere else, and again it is NOT because of INNATE, natural born talent, either. Think of the coincidences. Guys with more classical technique like Medevedev and Kafelnikov and Lendl and Korda all were fine on clay. And why is that? Because having more time to react (which less extreme technique ALWAYS gives you) is NEVER a disadvantage in tennis. Yet, flip the coin now, and has there EVER in the history of tennis been a TRUE extreme techniquer (which Borg was/is NOT...his technique was NOT that extreme relatively speaking) who was able to become a "legend" type player. Nope, as far as I can recall never. And if there has been, it sure has been exceedingly rare. Again, not just a coincidence. Are you telling me there has NEVER been a truly elite talent extreme techniquer in all this time and with soooo many players having been trained that way growing up? Again, I really don't think so. Again, just go ask Landsdorp if some might think I'm just being biased.

Agassi himself was so impressed with Bruguera's ability when he first saw him, that he flew him to Las Vegas from Spain on his private jet to train with him. He would not have done that for Rafter. Rafter developed a game and mental toughness that was more conducive to a wider pallete of "results" in tennis, but in pure talent, I just don't see it. Give me Edberg, Krajicek, Korda, or Stich any day over him, and yes, also Kafelnikov, Forget, Medvedev, Chang (pound for pound, he's up there with the best ever in my opinion, the guy was 5'6" for goodness sakes), and Bruguera (one of the pound for pound most talented, extreme grippers ever in my opinion) over Rafter any day.

And the thing is I have nothing against Rafter personally. I just never saw him though as being anything much more than a reasonably talented but more so extremely athletic and very hard competiting lunch bucket type. In fact, if he didn't play serve and volley tennis, which is so revered by so many as somehow being indicative of a true talent and form of tennis, I really don't think anyone would see him as much more than a grinder...like, gaps, Thomas Muster. Who is his baseline, extreme gripper, equivalent in my opinion.

And yet, NO ONE ever gives Muster as being talented EVER, as they are more inclined to do with Rafter. Again, NO ONE in the history of tennis has been able to hit a huge topspin moonball one-handed backhand like Muster. People always say how difficult a high ball is for a one-hander. Yet, Muster at 5'11" treated that like nothing. Again, he gets ZERO credit it for though when NO ONE else in history has been able to make such an incredibly difficult shot easy. Again, there's just such a bias. And believe me Muster, was incredibly irritated by that bias and for good reason too...maybe if Muster had Rafter's charming smile, and swash buckling hair, and golden tan, and charismatic eyes...people would think hey maybe what he's doing does take a little more talent than I can imagine or have been lead to believe?

Excellent Posts.

It's true that people are generally biased towards good looking people. This is termed as the "halo effect." I guess when people look at a "pleasant" face they assume the person is a pleasant being.
 
Maybe people are also biased towards good looking tennis, which is S&V.

I grant !Tym's point regarding the talents of some of these extreme grip players.

Btw, I never really had that great an impression of Rafter. The vibe I get about him is basically that he was Sampras' *****.
 
Maybe the polls should be set up as pre-tV era and post TV era players. There is a great temptation to vote for Brugera because 90% of the posters here nave never seen him play and only recognize the name. So unless a voter can explain his choice, the results of the poll are likely skewed.
 
This is termed as the "halo effect." I guess when people look at a "pleasant" face they assume the person is a pleasant being.

Eh?!? Federer is thought to be a pleasant being by just about everyone, but dare I say he's not in possession of the most pleasant..."mug" as the expression goes.


Weakest mens player to win 2 slam titles in last 30 years?

I wonder why quite a few of the members appear to have a strong dislike for Kafelnikov? Love or hate his ability or record, but some of the posts seem like there is something...else...motivating the feelings. It reminds me of a U.S. Open telecast a few years ago (on the USA cable network in the States), where Jim Courier pretty much went on a tirade about Kafelnikov (something about "Russians" & alleged gambling, or some such accusation) but it was as though he was on a platform which had little to with Kafelnikov's skills--which (if memory serves) was the actual topic.
 
I dunno if you wanna call anyone who can win a Grand Slam weak but of that group I would call Sergi Bruguera one of the weaker lefties I have seen. He was soooo good on clay but anything else he was blah. Make it three GS titles and you can add Kuerten.

Do you know anything about tennis?
 
I wonder why quite a few of the members appear to have a strong dislike for Kafelnikov? Love or hate his ability or record, but some of the posts seem like there is something...else...motivating the feelings. It reminds me of a U.S. Open telecast a few years ago (on the USA cable network in the States), where Jim Courier pretty much went on a tirade about Kafelnikov (something about "Russians" & alleged gambling, or some such accusation) but it was as though he was on a platform which had little to with Kafelnikov's skills--which (if memory serves) was the actual topic.

Actually, I don't. I've *always* considered Kafelnikov one of the elite talents in the game. He had supreme hand-eye coordination, and was darn good at everything. His frozen rope two handed backhand, down the line especially, was one of the finest produced shots I've ever seen. In fact, in a vote by his tour peers, they voted his backhand the best two-hander on tour and Pioline's the best one-hander (which during Kuerten's prime says a lot...though personally I would say his was the most versatile one-hander, Muster's the best topspin, Kuerten's the best POWER angles, and Korda the best laser beam flat drives from hulleck).

When he first broke onto the scene and took Sampras the distance at the Aussie, Sampras said they were the best groundies he'd ever faced. The guy hit, a very flat, CLEAN ball. One of the cleanest balls of anyone I've ever seen when on. His form in the final set against Haas at the Olympics shows how well this guy could play when he was at his best. He schooled a very motivated Haas that last set.

His problem was that he payed too much defference to Agassi and especially Sampras after that. He also played too much for money and not out of a true passion for the game. But again, when motivated his best tennis was up there with anyone in my opinion.

With that said, I do agree that he was a bit "lucky" to get his two slams in that he never had to overcome a champion caliber player too win it. In my opinion, he was also no more talented than Andrei Medvedev either. Too me, he was an Andrei Medvedev clone. Medvedev didn't move quite as well, but he had a slightly better serve, more finesse for drop shots, was a little less rigid out there, and had slightly more penetrating groundies.

I think had Medevedev not run into a prime king of clay "type" in Bruguera at the French, or had to face Courier in the finals, he would have won back to back Frenches in 93 and 94...but the problem is that unlike for Kafelnikov he didn't have the courts playing unusually fast one year (as several said, the courts were playing just like hard courts in 96), and major upsets open the draw for him. Kafelnikov gets Muster king of clay type at his best that French, and say it's not playing as fast as it was, and let's just say he loses 8.5 out of 10 times. It's a bit of a "pity" as Federer might say regarding Medvedev's luck vs. Kafelnikov's at the French, as I thought Medvedev was a better clay courter overall.

Kafelnikov's main problem overall was that the way his game was, he didn't have any one INSURMOUNTABLE attribute if he was "on" with his game. His game was based on a linkage of parts at its best. But he couldn't take the ball quite on the rise like Rios or Agassi. He couldn't serve you off the court and demoralize you. He couldn't hit so flat as a pancake that the opponent would be quaking in his booties if he was on like with Korda. He couldn't move as fast as Chang. He couldn't topspin the ball over your head with pace like Muster and Bruguera could. He couldn't basically swarm the net like a butterfly with GIANT wings the way Rafter could with his athleticism, effectively swallowing up everything you threw at him, with grunge and dive approach to volleying.

In other words, I think Kafelnikov was VERY dangerous on any surface against almost any style due to the innate balance of his game, but where he was maybe a bit lacking is in having any *definition* to his game. Sometimes, as Courier might say, having a big inside-out forehand that's money in the clutch, isn't such a bad thing to fall back on. A little one-sidedness if you're REALLY, like all-time great level good, with that one attribute as Rafter was in covering the net, can take you a long way in tennis and is I think a little more intidimidating to other players at their best.

The thing with Kafelnikov is that because no one aspect of his game was overly intimidating, but merely formidable, players always felt like well, hey, at least I'll get a chance to play my game. He can't take me completely out of it with just one overwhelming aspect of his game only.
 
Maybe the polls should be set up as pre-tV era and post TV era players. There is a great temptation to vote for Brugera because 90% of the posters here nave never seen him play and only recognize the name. So unless a voter can explain his choice, the results of the poll are likely skewed.

Well, I can kind of agree. But even I would still rate him weakest. He is in terms of pure results no doubt, but just not in terms of pure talent in my opinion. I've enough of his matches on tape, more than anyone here, I'm sure, to determine that without bias (at least I hope). I'm not making him out to be some "uber" champion, just that I've always felt like in tennis there is a huge bias against ANY one who uses a western grip. Yet, people don't take into account just how favorable the game is to players with basically all but one of tennis' crown jewels being unfavorable to western grips. With odds like that, it's no wonder western grippers will never be able to ascend to all-time level greatness and forever be perceived as being less talented...again, this is in *Robert Landsdorp's* opinion. It echoes mine, but the fact that Landsdorp himself believes this, famous archetype of the classical, hit through the court, clean strokes of Davenport, Sampras, Austin, Sharapova, et. all speaks volumes.

Of all the people to be biased one way, it should be him, and yet he's I think the most *logical* on this issue by far.

Btw, as far as many people thinking that western grip strokes are ugly? I would agree, EXCEPT for Bruguera. When he used that old ugly black Kneissel or whatever it was back in 93, I remember liking him but knowing him when he faced Courier in the finals...but I did not like the way his forehand looked. I considered it not ugly, but not pretty. For some reason though, he slightly tweaked his technique a little when switching to the RD-7, and after that, his forehand became the single most captivating "looking" stroke I had ever seen in my life...a lot of it, because I had never seen anyone hit a forehand in that unique way. It IS a different than technique than ANY of the western grippers out there who ALL use the defacto standard windshield wiper style "extreme" forehand, Nadal included. I'm someone who taught myself to use a one-handed backhand in two years just fooling around, and just two years later it was able to hold up just fine against two former pros. Trying to emulate, the Bruguera forehand technique is nothing to be sneezed at. I feel like I can mimic almost any pros form without much problem, the basic biomechanics are the same. But Bruguera's forehand technique is *ridiculously* hard to time and emulate. NO other technique I've tried to emulate comes close really, in my opinion.

I was not even a huge Bruguera fan until I saw him at the 97 Lipton. I didn't even realize that injuries had taken him away for awhile as I did not have cable (a friend taped his match with Muster for me). When I saw that though, the style of his forehand and regal takeback on the backhand struck me. He was a very fluid and beautiful mover in my opinion, and there wasn't the ungainliness of other western grippers. Prior to that ALL my favorite players were all "traditional" stroke players. Korda, Forget, Stich, Pioline, Medvedev, Malivai Washington, etc. To this day, they still are, but Bruguera's the ONLY western gripper besides Moya's inside out forehand that I've found aesthetically pleasing. After that I sought out Bruguera matches on tape, most of them from Europe, and that's the only reason I make these "assumptions". He is without a doubt the most underrated pure talent of his generation in my opinion of the "name" players. Was he a grinder? Yes, without a doubt. But he was also someone who was trained into that role in my opinion, but if you see enough tapes, you can see that there's more than meets the stereotype. He was too me a more natural Muster with more touch in my opinion, but Muster was Bruguera's least favorite opponent by far, because as he said, he had maybe a little more touch than him, but they played still more or less the same, except that Muster was sooo much more fit and tenacious than him. That's about how I would rate the two. Bruguera was a power grinder like Muster but with a bit of whimsy and inspiration thrown in. Muster was a stream roller, a tractor trailer, who just got the job done without any fuss or whining about it...and yet, if you break it down, Muster actually had a very beautiful and fluid technique on his serve and one hander in my opinion. It's just that his body was so stocky, and body-builder-esue...the anti-elan really...that he didn't ever appear graceful out there when in reality his strokes were actually, objectively speaking, quite fluid (which is NOT like Courier, who despite having a similar build, was just plain NO WAY ever graceful or fluid with any of his various "techniques"). It's like if Arnold S. ever played tennis, it'd be difficult for a guy with that kind of build to ever really look "graceful" out there. Whereas a guy like Arazi looks like a little fairy, and he could sneeze and pout and give the middle finger to the chair umpire then pick his nose then twirl his racket and it'd still all look graceful. Heck, I bet when he falls out of bed in the morning, it looks graceful. I bet when Muster falls out of bed in the morning, his wife, thinks "earthquake!!!"
 
!Tym, I was reading the first page of this thread and preparing words in defense of Bruguera and Kafelnikov (as the two leading vote-getters in this dubious poll), but I then saw your posts and think you've pretty much summed it up. I always appreciated Bruguera's game, and Kafelnikov was (and is) one of my favorite players. Your descriptions of them were very good and accurate. I liked your words about Muster as well; at this point I'd still say Muster is my favorite player.

I agree that Kafelnikov had fortunate draws for his two GS singles; you also bring up a good point that his overall game didn't really have any one amazing strength outside of technical consistency.

I know we're talking about singles here, but consider also that Kafelnikov had a great deal of doubles success. 4 Slams in Doubles, if I remember correctly.
 
I agree that Medvedev was unlucky not to win a French Open early in his career, he was also unlucky at the 99 French Open final, I swear the gods wanted Agassi to win that French Open against all logic badly. I also agree he is a better clay courter then Kafelnikov, yet Kafelnikov oddly enough is the one to win a French Open. I always believed if Kafelnikov ever won a slam it would be on hard courts. I always believed if Medvedev won a slam it would be the French Open.

I have to believe the reason Safin and Rafter have almost no votes is due to a few wins they are known for. Rafter for his 2 wins over Sampras in the summer of 98-final of Cincinnati, and semis over Sampras of the U.S Open; and Safin for his his wins over Sampras in the 2000 U.S Open final, and over Federer in the 2005 Australian Open semis.
 
I don´t think any player to win 2 Grand Slams can be considered as "weak".
And I don´t think it´s accurate to compare Nadal (who is 20 y.o.) with former players.
first of all the OP didnt say any of them were weak players, he asked who was the weakest of this bunch. secondly, no one cares if you think he is being unfair to your little nadal...
 
Maybe one way to compare them is to compare how their games match up with Federer and Sampras, the two greatest players of the last 35 years. Give half a point for an "about equal", and one point for a category won:

Hewitt

Hewitt vs Feddy boy

Forehand-Federer
Backhand-Federer
Serve-Federer
Return-about equal
Movement-about equal
Net play-Federer
Total points for Hewitt vs Federer-1

Hewitt vs Sampras

Forehand-Sampras
Backhand-Hewitt
Serve-Sampras
Return-Hewitt
Movement-Hewitt
Net Play-Sampras
Total points for Hewitt vs Sampras-3

Total points for Hewitt-4


Rafael Nadal

Nadal vs Feddy boy

Forehand-Federer
Backhand-Federer
Serve-Federer
Return-Federer
Movement-about equal
Net Play-Federer
Total points for Nadal vs Federer-0.5

Nadal vs Sampras

Forehand-about equal
Backhand-about equal
Serve-Sampras
Return-about equal
Movement-Nadal
Net Play-Sampras
Total points for Nadal vs Sampras-2.5

Total points for Nadal-3


Marat Safin

Safin vs Feddy boy

Forehand-Federer
Backhand-about equal
Serve-about equal
Return-Federer
Movement-Federer
Net Play-Federer
Total points for Safin vs Federer-1

Safin vs Sampras

Forehand-Sampras
Backhand-Safin
Serve-Sampras
Return-Safin
Movement-Sampras
Net Play-Sampras
Total points for Safin vs Sampras-2

Total points for Safin-3


Patrick Rafter

Rafter vs Feddy boy

Forehand-Federer
Backhand-Federer
Serve-Federer
Return-Federer
Net Play-Rafter
Movement-Federer
Total points for Rafter vs Federer-1

Rafter vs Sampras

Forehand-Sampras
Backhand-Sampras
Serve-Sampras
Return-Sampras
Net Play-about equal
Movement-about equal
Total points for Rafter vs Sampras-1

Total points for Rafter-2


Yevgeny Kafelnikov

Kafelnikov vs Feddy boy

Forehand-Federer
Backhand-Federer
Serve-Federer
Return-Federer
Net Play-Federer
Movement-Federer
Total points for Kafelnikov vs Federer-0

Kafelnikov vs Sampras

Forehand-Sampras
Backhand-about equal
Serve-Sampras
Return-about equal
Net Play-Sampras
Movement-Sampras
Total points for Kafelnikov vs Sampras-1


Sergei Bruguera

Bruguera vs Feddy boy

Forehand-Federer
Backhand-Federer
Serve-Federer
Return-Federer
Net Play-Federer
Movement-Federer
Total points for Bruguera vs Federer-0

Bruguera vs Sampras

Forehand-about equal
Backhand-about equal
Serve-Sampras
Return-Sampras
Net Play-Sampras
Movement-about equal
Total points for Bruguera vs Sampras-1.5

Total points for Bruguera-1.5


So best to worst would be:

Hewitt-4 points
Safin-3 points
Nadal-3 points
Rafter-2 points
Bruguera-1.5 points
Kafelnikov-1 points


However those are done based on their prime levels, and ignoring the mental variables. Safin and Nadal will probably end up having the least amount of time at their prime level of tennis. Actually Kafelnikov probably had the most amount of time at his prime level of tennis of all of those which is a plus for him. The mental variables would favor Hewitt and Nadal the most, Kafelnikov and Safin the least.
 
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