Week 3 of Nationals is a big one - 18+ 4.0 and 4.5, 40+ 3.0 and 3.5

Hawg61

New User
I see that Intermountain has unleashed their 5.0+ Asian Sensation in 4.0 singles. Over/Under for games lost per match has to be 1.5 for him. All IM has to do now is split the other 4 matches 2-2 each round and they are 4.0 National Champs on Sunday.
 

djkahn86

Rookie
I saw him play. Lefty. Super solid. I was happy not to be a singles player when I saw him
 
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schmke

Hall of Fame
In Orlando, the good news is nearly every team got their 3 matches in on Friday. But it sounds like it will rain much if not all Saturday and they are moving matches to the few indoor courts to try and get the remaining matches in. This was sent to captains, looks like some sort of short scoring format:


In anticipation of inclement weather tomorrow, we have worked on a preliminary indoor schedule. However, we will wait to see how the weather shapes out overnight and into the morning.

You can expect an email at 5:00am ET tomorrow morning with full details. Should we move indoors, please plan on the scoring format being altered to a short set format to accommodate the number of matches that still need to be played.
 
I thought only Texas had ringers. This has to be a mistake. I’ve read it many times on this board.
Weird how some posters from Texas get so offended when we call out their worst offenders. I never see other sections have this reaction. Its usually just "Yeah, we know those guys are bad. Wish they'd do something about it." Instead we get "Not just Texas!"
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I thought only Texas had ringers. This has to be a mistake. I’ve read it many times on this board.
It's not unique to TX, but they are by far the worst offenders. Remember, JF's ridiculous Hunter Emmot team was beaten in the finals by an even cheatier team from SoCal.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Tell you what. Florida and Northern teams have been class acts. Great experience so far.
Damn, dude, you've been kicking ass. Nice. Are you guys missing your younger singles guy or are you just trying to see if you can take 18s with a 40+ team, LOL?
 

coyote

Semi-Pro
It's not unique to TX, but they are by far the worst offenders. Remember, JF's ridiculous Hunter Emmot team was beaten in the finals by an even cheatier team from SoCal.
For the most part, I actually agree with you. I just disagree Texas is more egregious. In my opinion, if a team is purposely pulling ANYTHING then they are no different than the one pulling a whole lot. It is a cheating for me but not for thee attitude and certain people get mad because they get out-cheated. If you are a captain who has NEVER tried to game the system, then you have the moral high ground. The whole Texas has more/better ringers than my team gets very little sympathy.
 

Doan

New User
I see that Intermountain has unleashed their 5.0+ Asian Sensation in 4.0 singles. Over/Under for games lost per match has to be 1.5 for him. All IM has to do now is split the other 4 matches 2-2 each round and they are 4.0 National Champs on Sunday.
Looking at the IM roster I saw that one of their guys played @leech in 3.5 Nationals last year.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
After day 1 it looks like 18+ 4.0 men could possibly finish with five undefeated teams. Would this be a first?
At Nationals yes, it would be. But not a first for this format. NorCal used the format for Districts this year with the top-4 advancing to Sectionals and had five undefeated teams. Of course they were stupid and used the format with I think 21 teams and each one only playing three matches, ... It was bound to happen ...

As far as it happening this year, yes, my simulation says a very good (all things considered) 12% chance of it. Eastern and Middle West the most likely to slip up. Those two teams play each other so one will knock off the other, and then Eastern still has to play Florida who lost narrowly 3-2 to both Middle States and Texas (tough draw!).

Note that Florida appears to not have two of their stronger players, so my simulation perhaps overrates them slightly and then Eastern very well could pull it off.
 
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am1899

Hall of Fame
Some of Intermountain scores against PNW were pretty bleak. 1 Singles: 6-0, 6-0 2 Singles: 6-0, 6-1 3rd Dubs: 6-0, 6-0. I know several of those PNW players and they definitely do not suck. In fact, TennisRecord has both of PNW's singles guys listed as 3.87s, which is on the higher end of 4.0... not a level where they should be getting double bageled by "equal" competition.
Ouch.

I get that any system will be imperfect, and there’s bound to be a few blow outs here and there. But these type of occurrences seem a bit too common to be “normal.”
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
At Nationals yes, it would be. But not a first for this format. NorCal used the format for Districts this year with the top-4 advancing to Sectionals and had five undefeated teams. Of course they were stupid and used the format with I think 21 teams and each one only playing three matches, ... It was bound to happen ...

As far as it happening this year, yes, my simulation says a very good (all things considered) 12% chance of it. Eastern and Middle West the most likely to slip up. Those two teams play each other so one will knock off the other, and then Eastern still has to play Florida who lost narrowly 3-2 to both Middle States and Texas (tough draw!).

Note that Florida appears to not have two of their stronger players, so my simulation perhaps overrates them slightly and then Eastern very well could pull it off.
Or, Middle States can go be upset by New England 3-2 and ruin the whole scenario. @J_R_B what happened to your boys?
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
I missed it earlier, but the 4.5 men could also end up with five undefeated teams. Four are 3-0 right now, another is 2-0 with two easier matches remaining.

Matches to watch are:

Middle States vs Florida - Florida is strong on paper, but lost three matches all 3-2, perhaps due to some missing players as 3 of their top-11 have a not played

Southern vs Texas - Texas is still in it at 2-1 and a good team, their only loss to Middle West, but needs to win and some help, this is perhaps where the 5 undefeated could go awry

If it does happen, Intermountain looks to be the most likely to miss out, but Middle States is just ahead of them and has the tougher remaining match.
 

winchestervatennis

Hall of Fame
I missed it earlier, but the 4.5 men could also end up with five undefeated teams. Four are 3-0 right now, another is 2-0 with two easier matches remaining.

Matches to watch are:

Middle States vs Florida - Florida is strong on paper, but lost three matches all 3-2, perhaps due to some missing players as 3 of their top-11 have a not played

Southern vs Texas - Texas is still in it at 2-1 and a good team, their only loss to Middle West, but needs to win and some help, this is perhaps where the 5 undefeated could go awry

If it does happen, Intermountain looks to be the most likely to miss out, but Middle States is just ahead of them and has the tougher remaining match.
Tennessee is kickin a and takin names it looks like. Saw that team at sectionals, they looked pretty solid.
 

djkahn86

Rookie
Or, Middle States can go be upset by New England 3-2 and ruin the whole scenario. @J_R_B what happened to your boys?
Middle states vs New England this morning: three court TBs went down to 2-2 and singles 1 went the way of New England. Hanging a loss on us. We did just 5-0 PNW but that’s not going to do it unless Florida beats eastern and then A Texas loss. It was a good run.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
I missed it earlier, but the 4.5 men could also end up with five undefeated teams. Four are 3-0 right now, another is 2-0 with two easier matches remaining.

Matches to watch are:

Middle States vs Florida - Florida is strong on paper, but lost three matches all 3-2, perhaps due to some missing players as 3 of their top-11 have a not played

Southern vs Texas - Texas is still in it at 2-1 and a good team, their only loss to Middle West, but needs to win and some help, this is perhaps where the 5 undefeated could go awry

If it does happen, Intermountain looks to be the most likely to miss out, but Middle States is just ahead of them and has the tougher remaining match.
Oh boy, the score just posted for the 3:00 4.5 match between Intermountain and Southwest. Intermountain got a default in 2nd singles and won #1 singles, but got swept in doubles (including a 3rd set breaker at #3 dubs) to lose. That means they finish 3-1, and there will only be 4 undefeated teams.

I was rooting for the chaos of 5 undefeated teams, but Intermountain needed a 5-0 sweep in that last match to have a chance of getting in.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Oh boy, the score just posted for the 3:00 4.5 match between Intermountain and Southwest. Intermountain got a default in 2nd singles and won #1 singles, but got swept in doubles (including a 3rd set breaker at #3 dubs) to lose. That means they finish 3-1, and there will only be 4 undefeated teams.

I was rooting for the chaos of 5 undefeated teams, but Intermountain needed a 5-0 sweep in that last match to have a chance of getting in.
I was rooting for chaos too! IM, you let us down!
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Middle states vs New England this morning: three court TBs went down to 2-2 and singles 1 went the way of New England. Hanging a loss on us. We did just 5-0 PNW but that’s not going to do it unless Florida beats eastern and then A Texas loss. It was a good run.
Definitely a good run! Congrats! Most teams would be happy to go 3-1 at Nationals and compete for a semifinal spot.

I feel bad for that PNW 4.0 team. The core of that group is a bunch of older guys who have been 4.0s for 15+ years. Their best player is in his late 40s or early 50s, and was a solid 4.5 doubles player about 8 or 9 years ago. They don't have a single ringer on that team - everybody is a legit 4.0. The same guys won both 18s and 40s at Sectionals, so it was a good run for them, getting numerous clutch 3-2 wins along the way, but clearly, PNW is having a down year when it comes to the National tournament. (PNW has been at the bottom of the standings in men's 18s 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0+, and 40s 4.0 so far.)
 

Doan

New User
Definitely a good run! Congrats! Most teams would be happy to go 3-1 at Nationals and compete for a semifinal spot.

I feel bad for that PNW 4.0 team. The core of that group is a bunch of older guys who have been 4.0s for 15+ years. Their best player is in his late 40s or early 50s, and was a solid 4.5 doubles player about 8 or 9 years ago. They don't have a single ringer on that team - everybody is a legit 4.0. The same guys won both 18s and 40s at Sectionals, so it was a good run for them, getting numerous clutch 3-2 wins along the way, but clearly, PNW is having a down year when it comes to the National tournament. (PNW has been at the bottom of the standings in men's 18s 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0+, and 40s 4.0 so far.)
In 18+ having one or two young stud singles guys is really beneficial. Was at Mid-Atlantic sectionals and all the teams that won sectionals had that. Lets see how the Mid-Atlantic 4.0 singles guys will do against IM.
 

djkahn86

Rookie
Definitely a good run! Congrats! Most teams would be happy to go 3-1 at Nationals and compete for a semifinal spot.

I feel bad for that PNW 4.0 team. The core of that group is a bunch of older guys who have been 4.0s for 15+ years. Their best player is in his late 40s or early 50s, and was a solid 4.5 doubles player about 8 or 9 years ago. They don't have a single ringer on that team - everybody is a legit 4.0. The same guys won both 18s and 40s at Sectionals, so it was a good run for them, getting numerous clutch 3-2 wins along the way, but clearly, PNW is having a down year when it comes to the National tournament. (PNW has been at the bottom of the standings in men's 18s 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0+, and 40s 4.0 so far.)
Yeah the pair we played. (On an amazing stadium court at red rock country club) we’re serving bombs at us. Match came down to us breaking them once in first set and again in second. Team is definitely older with one guy turning 60 last week at 40+ nationals. ( they got him on the stadium court for his birthday match in Az). All were nice and for the teams we played everyone were stand up guys. Players social in an hour so will be sad to say goodbye to nationals and 4.0 land. Hello 4.5 here I come
 
Yeah the pair we played. (On an amazing stadium court at red rock country club) we’re serving bombs at us. Match came down to us breaking them once in first set and again in second. Team is definitely older with one guy turning 60 last week at 40+ nationals. ( they got him on the stadium court for his birthday match in Az). All were nice and for the teams we played everyone were stand up guys. Players social in an hour so will be sad to say goodbye to nationals and 4.0 land. Hello 4.5 here I come
Welcome to 4.5! Congrats on your achievement!
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Definitely a good run! Congrats! Most teams would be happy to go 3-1 at Nationals and compete for a semifinal spot.

I feel bad for that PNW 4.0 team. The core of that group is a bunch of older guys who have been 4.0s for 15+ years. Their best player is in his late 40s or early 50s, and was a solid 4.5 doubles player about 8 or 9 years ago. They don't have a single ringer on that team - everybody is a legit 4.0. The same guys won both 18s and 40s at Sectionals, so it was a good run for them, getting numerous clutch 3-2 wins along the way, but clearly, PNW is having a down year when it comes to the National tournament. (PNW has been at the bottom of the standings in men's 18s 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0+, and 40s 4.0 so far.)
Clearly no one sandbags in PNW ...
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Clearly no one sandbags in PNW ...
At least, not this year! LOL! ;)

(In the past, PNW has definitely had some clear sandbaggers and has collected a few National titles because of it. The ratings hammer in 2014 cleared some of that up, and a few of the captains that stretched the rules have gone into hibernation recently.)
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Yeah the pair we played. (On an amazing stadium court at red rock country club) we’re serving bombs at us. Match came down to us breaking them once in first set and again in second. Team is definitely older with one guy turning 60 last week at 40+ nationals. ( they got him on the stadium court for his birthday match in Az). All were nice and for the teams we played everyone were stand up guys. Players social in an hour so will be sad to say goodbye to nationals and 4.0 land. Hello 4.5 here I come
Good, I'm glad the match was competitive!

Red Rocks Country Club is beautiful, and that stadium court is great! What a cool opportunity to play there. Our 1st match in 4.5+ Nationals was there also, and I wish all of our matches could have been on those courts (although, Darling TC is nice also).

BTW, last year in late October, Red Rocks CC hosted a USTA Pro Circuit women's challeger event, and Belinda Bencic won it on that very same court you played on!
 

coyote

Semi-Pro
Weird how some posters from Texas get so offended when we call out their worst offenders. I never see other sections have this reaction. Its usually just "Yeah, we know those guys are bad. Wish they'd do something about it." Instead we get "Not just Texas!"
Weird how non-Texas guys think their level of cheating is justified. Our point is simple. We know it happens and don’t like/condone but you are fine with it in your section but don’t condone cheating in excess of your non-published tolerance level.

Work on your own section and we will work on ours. Cheating is cheating but because you and others are fine with cheating as long as it is less than your cheating is acceptable is problematic.
 
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coyote

Semi-Pro
At least, not this year! LOL! ;)

(In the past, PNW has definitely had some clear sandbaggers and has collected a few National titles because of it. The ratings hammer in 2014 cleared some of that up, and a few of the captains that stretched the rules have gone into hibernation recently.)
PNW has produced some notorious cheaters and whiners. Yet, too many ignore the shenanigans in their own sections while pointing fingers at othersz. The whole ‘your ringers beat my ringers’ argument is preposterous. I’ve noticed the most notorious offenders are Carib/Southern/TX/NorCal/SoCal/PNW but others pull stuff too. Is it right? NO!!! Yet, many accept some shenanigans in their section if it isn’t ‘too much’ according to their own undefined ‘too much’ standards.
 
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schmke

Hall of Fame
PNW has produced some notorious cheaters and whiners. Yet, too many ignore the shenanigans in their own sections while pointing fingers at othersz. The whole ‘your ringers beat my ringers’ argument is preposterous. I’ve noticed the most notorious offenders are Carib/Southern/TX/NorCal/SoCal/PNW but others pull stuff too. Is it right? NO!!! Yet, many accept some shenanigans in their section if it isn’t ‘too much’ according to their own undefined ‘too much’ standards.
For the record, I don't accept it in my section or any other. I've reported shenanigans to my LC and Section numerous times and will continue to do so.

My comment was clearly facetious, I know stuff happens in PNW and most every section to varying degrees.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
PNW has produced some notorious cheaters and whiners. Yet, too many ignore the shenanigans in their own sections while pointing fingers at othersz. The whole ‘your ringers beat my ringers’ argument is preposterous. I’ve noticed the most notorious offenders are Carib/Southern/TX/NorCal/SoCal/PNW but others pull stuff too. Is it right? NO!!! Yet, many accept some shenanigans in their section if it isn’t ‘too much’ according to their own undefined ‘too much’ standards.
I know all too well about the cheaters in the PNW. Over the years, I have captained numerous teams in that Section, and fell victim to those notorious teams time after time after time in the playoffs. I refused to stoop to those tactics and always ran clean teams with no self rated players. Like @schmke, I also filed grievances in my local area (which made me very unpopular with the dishonest captains and put a mark on my back), worked with our LCs, and emailed suggestions to make things better in USTA League overall. So, I've tried to do my part. For the past 2 or 3 years, I haven't seen any blatant ratings issues in the PNW, so maybe my efforts and those of others have started to work. Or maybe the cheaters are just hibernating for now. Of course, maybe that's also why the PNW men have been getting their asses kicked lately at Nationals as well.
 

teckid

Rookie
Had fun, it was a long season starting in January, we had some rough match ups this weekend and lost a lot of 3rd set TBs. Personally, went 1-1 with one of my best friends and co-Captian; happy to get a win here and have the experience, (TX 4.5)

Cheers and good luck to the guys playing Sunday!
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
I'm interested in IM vs Mid-Atlantic in the Mens 4.0 matchup.
I was too. But IM won it in rather decidedly fashion, 5-0. A couple of the matches were close. The rest not so much.

That sets up a showdown between all 4 undefeated teams - SoCal, IM, Eastern, & Texas. Combined, these teams won 70 out of the 80 individual matches they played in round robin play. That seems like a fairly thorough beat down of their respective competition.

Should be an interesting finish, but I will miss the action. My wife and I had never been to Vegas...so we’re gonna hit the strip tomorrow and see the sights.

I’ll throw this in too - having played in Mobile last year...nothing against that area or the venue but Vegas is far and away a superior site. Really impressed with Darling Club and Red Rocks Country Club. The staff at both places have been very hospitable and helpful. And the USTA staff has been really great this time around as well. All around, this trip was well worth it.
 

BMRSNR27

Rookie
Played 3.5 40+ this weekend. Some high level 3.5 tennis, and in some cases, much higher.

Our team opened with a 3-2 loss to the notorious Houston team, going 2-1 in super tiebreakers. Nice to know we were on level with them and didn’t have to sandbag to get there.

Beat an awesome group of guys from Mid-Atlantic Friday afternoon in a really tight and fun 4-1 match, in which I personally pulled a muscle and was done for the weekend.

Opened with Pacific NW in the morning and lost another hard fought 3-2 match that I can’t help but think if I were healthy we might have won.

Emptied the bench for the final match against Southern and drank some beer and hung out with the great bunch of guys our captain put together.

Personally, went 2-0 with my captain and one of my best friends. Couldn’t have asked for a better weekend outside of the pulled muscle.

Observations:

1) The USTA has to figure scheduling out. They have an algorithm that could seed these things and get teams equal schedules. We lost 3-2 in tight matches to two of the best three teams here, maybe the best two-we will see today. In the end, we were done after losing 3-2 to Texas because Florida had such an easy road we would have lost the tiebreaker anyway. Looking at Florida and Northern Cal’s schedules, we go 4-0 with those.

2) If you’re going to run a tournament where people travel and pay thousands of dollars to play tennis, have people there to help clean the courts off in the case of a little overnight rain shower. It was ridiculous that Saturday’s matches didn’t start until 9:30. The courts could have been easily dried - even if they’d have let the players help, which they wouldn’t.

3) The Oklahoma City Tennis Center and Earlywine were great hosts. The weather wasn’t perfect, but it wasn’t horrible. In all, a pretty great weekend.

I’m headed over to watch the semis and finals and cheering hard for our new friends from Seattle.

Cheers.
 
Weird how non-Texas guys think their level of cheating is justified. Our point is simple. We know it happens and don’t like/condone but you are fine with it in your section but don’t condone cheating in excess of your non-published tolerance level.

Work on your own section and we will work on ours. Cheating is cheating but because you and others are fine with cheating as long as it is less than your cheating is acceptable is problematic.
I'm sorry if I come across as attacking Texas. I'll try to stop instigating in that sense. We agree that these issues happen in a ton of places, like the sections you named. And we agree that all the cheating is bad, not just some. We're not neglectful. That's why your argument here comes of as silly. Most people (that care to post about this topic on an internet forum) recognize the stuff in their own districts and take action there. Merely talking about Texas pales in comparison to that.

But the reason I personally find your section alarming is that I've heard of captains getting banned in most the other sections you named. Like the 40+ 4.5 Nor Cal guy from the other thread. I'm fully aware it's typically a handful of teams trying to outdo each other and that not everyone in Texas cheats. But why does nothing ever happen to Mr. Notorious when he's the only one down there having people get double bumped every other year, bringing 4.5 17yr olds to 3.5 nationals, bringing D1 players to 4.0 nationals, having leagues everyone knows they use for tanking, or having guys win 3.5 nationals get bumped and immediately go back to 4.0 nationals because that's just how good they are?

So my issue is not with you or your friends. It's with the shenanigans being accepted by all the coordinators. It's with a handful of captains choosing to fight fire with fire instead of everyone putting together evidence and taking it to a grievance committee as a unified voice like they do elsewhere.

Edited: I forgot no names
 
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1) The USTA has to figure scheduling out. They have an algorithm that could seed these things and get teams equal schedules. We lost 3-2 in tight matches to two of the best three teams here, maybe the best two-we will see today. In the end, we were done after losing 3-2 to Texas because Florida had such an easy road we would have lost the tiebreaker anyway. Looking at Florida and Northern Cal’s schedules, we go 4-0 with those.
100% agree with you. I like the new system and giving people an outside chance if they lose one, plus every team having equal matches, but seed the dang thing! They don't even have to tell us who's seeded where, if they're scared of releasing too much information on ratings.
 
In an attempt not to derail another thread. Predictions for any of the finals?

I'm going Intermountain over Texas at 4.0 men.
Texas over PNW at 3.5 men.
And no earthly idea at 4.5 men. Too close to call.
Also PNW gets the win at 4.0 on the women's side after all the talk of their teams finishing in last.
 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
For the most part, I actually agree with you. I just disagree Texas is more egregious. In my opinion, if a team is purposely pulling ANYTHING then they are no different than the one pulling a whole lot. It is a cheating for me but not for thee attitude and certain people get mad because they get out-cheated. If you are a captain who has NEVER tried to game the system, then you have the moral high ground. The whole Texas has more/better ringers than my team gets very little sympathy.
This is silly. It's like saying some guy who embezzled a few hundred out of petty cash at his works is in the same league as Bernie Madoff who stole billions of dollars. Of course they are both thieves but they aren't remotely the same.
 

tpro2000

Rookie
I'm going Eastern 4.5 women just because they're friends of mine. lol. They have a couple of solid girls in the roster (plus missing one of their better players).
 

Doan

New User
I was too. But IM won it in rather decidedly fashion, 5-0. A couple of the matches were close. The rest not so much.
D2 was the only match that wasn't decided by IM winning a break in each set. I was mainly interested as we played them in the local league and also curious how IM's top S1 guy stacked up against Mid-Atlantics S1 guy.
 

BMRSNR27

Rookie
Texas vs. PNW in 3.5

PNW won 4-1, couldn’t get their fourth off the court before he had already won.

Texas won 3-1, 3-2 after they pulled their guy.

My prediction: PNW is fresher and will upset Texas while the entire Oklahoma (Mo Valley) team cheers them on.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
100% agree with you. I like the new system and giving people an outside chance if they lose one, plus every team having equal matches, but seed the dang thing! They don't even have to tell us who's seeded where, if they're scared of releasing too much information on ratings.
Completely agree. In my simulations I always note the range of schedule strengths and it is usually around a 0.15 difference from easiest to toughest, but sometimes bigger. For most flights, I've created schedules myself that can typically get that range down to 0.05-0.07 which is a lot more even, by doing seeding and having slots different seeds go in on the schedule. My schedules also minimize the chances of 5 undefeated teams and have no chance of 6 undefeated teams, where the USTA's schedules often have the latter as a possibility.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Middle states vs New England this morning: three court TBs went down to 2-2 and singles 1 went the way of New England. Hanging a loss on us. We did just 5-0 PNW but that’s not going to do it unless Florida beats eastern and then A Texas loss. It was a good run.
In a way, I'm glad you guys didn't pull that one out. If you had beaten them 3-2, you would have finished 5th with a 4-0 record, which is kind of the nightmare scenario.
 

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
As I predicted, Texas v Utah for 4.0 finals. Utah won semis without their ringer singles player, who was injured on match point bs Mid At last night. It looked like cramps, although some said he rolled ankle. He had medical attention for about 10 minutes, then served out the match with one serve. Will be interesting to see if he plays in the finals today v Texas.
 
I'm going Intermountain over Texas at 4.0 men.
Texas over PNW at 3.5 men.
A̶n̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶e̶a̶r̶t̶h̶l̶y̶ ̶i̶d̶e̶a̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶4̶.̶5̶ ̶m̶e̶n̶.̶ Mid Atlantic at 4.5 men.
Also PNW gets the win at 4.0 on the women's side after all the talk of their teams finishing in last.
Am I psychic?
 
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