Weight Placement - Pros

Hughy86

New User
So I was looking at the post of all the pros racquet weights and saw some are up to 360-375 grams. Thats about 30 grams or so above many racquets. My question is where to most of the pros put all this weight. I assume the place atleast half of it in the grip leaving around 15 grams to disperse. So now to they place 5 grams at 12oclock, and 10 grams between 3 and 9? Or do the place some at 1 and 2 or 4 and 5?
 

AJK1

Hall of Fame
Placing weight like the pros do will be detrimental to your game. Do what is best for you.
 

thomas martinez

Professional
Each frame for each player is going to have a different amount. For example player A frame #1 has 15 g at the top, frame #2 has 13.8 at the top, and frame #3 has 17.4 g at the top. Player B could have a complete and different requirement and have a different placement.
 

johncauthen

Semi-Pro
The idea that the pro's racquets would be detrimental to you is the logic behind the tennis industry not supplying any of us with the racquets pros use.

That is strange logic. Even if the racquets were detrimental to us, there are a lot of people curious about how a pro's racquets feel. The industry would be able to sell us some of those racquets and make some money if they only made them available. Not wanting us to be hurt in any way by something that might be detrimental to our games, they don't provide any of us with any of the racquets the pros use.

While I inherently trust the system, especially free market capitalism to do what is best for me, I have never known corporations to be that concerned about my well being.

Maybe what they are telling us a is a lie. Maybe the pro's racquets would make our games very similar to pro's games. Maybe it is not true the racquets they use are more difficult to play with than our racquets. Maybe their racquets are a reason why the pros are so good. Maybe the industry is not giving us those racquets because they want us to be in awe of the pros. They want us to be in a state of mind where we think not only are they better players, but they can use racquets with 14 extra grams on the top of the head that we couldn't even hardly swing, much less hit a ball with.

The pro's racquets actually have all of their extra weight at the top of the grip. Here is a racquet Michael Chaho sent me to modify. It is a light-headed racquet, a Kneissl. It's too light-headed to play decent tennis with, even though its overall unmodified weight with strings and overgrip is 312 grams, the head is light.

I took the photo in a way that allows you to clearly see the weight I added. It will be shaped around the grip and covered with an overgrip. I've modified that racquet with 49 grams at the top of the grip. That's all I added to it. It hits like a pro racquet and weighs 361 grams. It is easier to use not harder to use, but the industry won't sell it to you. I wonder why not.

PICT0019-4.jpg
 

javier sergio

Professional
Hi John Cauthen

just curious, the weight you added according to that image is only on one side of the grip.
Is the racquet still balanced having the lead on one side?

thanks, Javier
 

TennisNewby

New User
Placing weight like the pros do will be detrimental to your game. Do what is best for you.

I don't know where you got this info. Is it because of the heavy sw and over weight? Kids back in the days were using wood racquets which were much heavier and higher sw no? I believe travlajm (sp?) in one of his posts claimed that pros swing a differ way and somebody confirmed it with video evidence. So i wonder is it really that difficult to mimic the pro swing without causing injury to regular players. I just don't see how that type of swing will hurt our game.

Just don't get it. Why?
take care
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
The idea that the pro's racquets would be detrimental to you is the logic behind the tennis industry not supplying any of us with the racquets pros use.

That is strange logic. Even if the racquets were detrimental to us, there are a lot of people curious about how a pro's racquets feel. The industry would be able to sell us some of those racquets and make some money if they only made them available. Not wanting us to be hurt in any way by something that might be detrimental to our games, they don't provide any of us with any of the racquets the pros use.

There is the issue of product liability. If people start getting hurt playing with pro sticks, there will be lawsuits. The manufacturers can argue that people chose the racquets on their own, but it does not always work that way. The other factor is sales. Most recreational players I see prefer lighter racquets. And some of them are quite good, mind you.

You also need to consider that pros customize their racquets in different ways. It may not be possible to bring out "a pro stick" which meets the demands of all advanced players. Each will have his preference, and is probably better served by a stock racquet which he can lead up according to his needs.
 

chess9

Hall of Fame
There is the issue of product liability. If people start getting hurt playing with pro sticks, there will be lawsuits. The manufacturers can argue that people chose the racquets on their own, but it does not always work that way. The other factor is sales. Most recreational players I see prefer lighter racquets. And some of them are quite good, mind you.

You also need to consider that pros customize their racquets in different ways. It may not be possible to bring out "a pro stick" which meets the demands of all advanced players. Each will have his preference, and is probably better served by a stock racquet which he can lead up according to his needs.

I doubt the problem is a legal one. Assumption of risk, and all of that. Anyway, light racquets are deadly, IMHO.

No, the problem is that a pro's racquet might have 20 attendant variables, so to tell the public that racquet x is Federer's racquet is meaningless. Federer probably uses at least 3 or 4 different setups, and maybe more. If he's like the rest of us he'll always be tinkering with his racquet.

Just my views, and I'm an old jock who is forgetting more every day than he is learning, so I'm sure I'm wrong. :)

-Robert
 
So we'd play like pros if we could just get our hands on their racquets, John? Some people on this board have gotten racquets from pros, but I don't see them on tour, I think. And you think manufacturers fear us playing too well? A manufacturer who's worried we'll be too happy with their product??!! Fascinating. What's the subtext here? "If I could just get my hands on a pro's racquet, I could play like one>"
 

johncauthen

Semi-Pro
At least you could hit the same type of shots. When a pro hits a shot on TV, you would know what that shot feels like.

For some reason the industry doesn't want us to have that feeling. They come up with all kinds of excuses not to give us what the pros use.
 

Seven

New User
So we'd play like pros if we could just get our hands on their racquets, John? Some people on this board have gotten racquets from pros, but I don't see them on tour, I think. And you think manufacturers fear us playing too well? A manufacturer who's worried we'll be too happy with their product??!! Fascinating. What's the subtext here? "If I could just get my hands on a pro's racquet, I could play like one>"
While I don't agree with johncauthen about the fact that the games of the general public would be improved if the racquet manufacturers were to make pro spec racquets available (most people simply are not good enough to use such well-tuned sticks and thus will not see a massive improvement in their games, whether the specs are perfect or not, and even that is totally subjective), I do agree that there is another reason the manufacturers are not making said racquets available to the general public; there is nothing in it for them. Is the company afraid you'll like the racquet too much? Yes. It's a simple concept; if you love it so much, you won't want to switch racquets or even "upgrade" to the new version, right? Right. So how would one expect the racquet company to make any money? Do the math, it's basic marketing, and it doesn't only go for the racquet industry...
 

johncauthen

Semi-Pro
I think the true excuse is they don't know how to duplicate the feel.

I had the racquet above hitting like a pro racquet. I took that weight off, which weighed 49.3 grams and made a new weight that now weighs 48.9 grams.

The new weight was neat, so I took the photo. Then, I hit with the racquet. The racquet felt disappointingly clumsy.

I felt the good weight mostly at the top. Too much so, I thought. So I shaped the new weight so I felt it in the bottom middle. It didn't feel as good when I hit with it.

I took a little bit of material off the middle bottom of the weight and it started to feel good. Now I felt the weight at the top like the other weight, but less so.

The new weight is half a gram lighter. That doesn't matter. The exact shape and feeling you get from the shape is what matters.

I think the industry does not know how to get this effect in every racquet they produce, so they produce light racquets that are head heavy. A few pro racquet tuners can get this effect. Some pros get perfectly tuned racquets that are light, powerful, and easy to use, but we don't get them because they can't mass produce those racquets for us.

But I can put that same weight on other racquets and it gives the same effect; except that you have to get the head length right.

There is a relationship between the top of the head and string bridge that has to be just right.

But this is the first time, ever, I have had a weight I could adjust without losing the effect, not being able to get the effect back at a lighter weight using the same the peice of lead. I can actually cut out a weight and start shaping it and be sure to get the effect without ruining the piece of lead. In other words, I can practically manufacture it.

I think the inability of the industry to manufacture this effect is the real reason we don't get the light powerful, perfectly nimble racquets some pros have, like Federer and Gonzalez at the Australian. And even they don't have racquets that good all the time.

I also think that since perfect racquet balance, which is hard to achieve, but has been possible for years with a lot of care has such an effect on a player's performance, some cynical and evil people in the industry and in pro tennis have been using this to affect player's results.

The only solution is to mass produce and sell everyone racquets that have this pro racquet feel. While some people want to keep the good stuff from us, and many others don't want to be bothered by the need to mass produce perfect racquets all the time, I think I have learned how to mass produce this feel.

A racquet that doesn't have to be strung perfectly is the Prince Red. All the weight is in the top part of the head. The string bridge doesn't affect the feel much. It can be strung at different lengths, as most racquets are, and it still hits right.

With this weight added to an old style Prince Red, Prince could mass produce pro racquet feel.
 
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AJK1

Hall of Fame
I think adding lead is dependent on the ability of the player, when your skills increase, yes, adding some weight will improve things. But giving a newbie a tour weighted stick will kill their game and kill their enthusiasm. It will only slow their swing down. Yes, wood racquets were heavier, but the game was played much differently, they didn't play with such fast swing speeds, and wood racquets were far more flexible.
 

johncauthen

Semi-Pro
I give my racquets to intermediate players and they play better with them. The racquets also have less shock and feel like wood racquets. A Red with this weight is 348 grams: perfect.
 

Craig Sheppard

Hall of Fame
The pro's racquets actually have all of their extra weight at the top of the grip. Here is a racquet Michael Chaho sent me to modify. It is a light-headed racquet, a Kneissl. It's too light-headed to play decent tennis with, even though its overall unmodified weight with strings and overgrip is 312 grams, the head is light.

Clearly this is not true if Thomas, who actually works with pros, say some have 13 g at the head, some have 15 g, and some have 17 g. Some pros may have a little weight at the top of their handle, but all pros don't have all of the weight there. I would trust he who actually works on pro racquets.
 

TennisNewby

New User
I think the true excuse is they don't know how to duplicate the feel.

John didn't you say that PS 2.7 had exactly the same feel? So that couldn't be it.

if you love it so much, you won't want to switch racquets or even "upgrade" to the new version, right? Right. So how would one expect the racquet company to make any money? Do the math, it's basic marketing, and it doesn't only go for the racquet industry...

I think this is the reason.

take care
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
... where [do] most of the pros put all this weight...?
A few years ago I was pretty nervous about experimenting with lead tape on my frame. Then a friend said, "If you don't like it, it peels off."

I went forward. After about my fifth iteration, I had "it" and I'd changed a 292g frame to about 322. What I settled on wasn't the "typical" 9, 12 and 3, but that was over an ounce of lead I'd added....

Now I'm playing with a 332g stick -- "stock" at the moment.

Mess around with it. You'll learn a lot....

- KK
 
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Craig Sheppard

Hall of Fame
I went forward. After about my fifth iteration, I had "it" and I'd changed a 292g frame to about 322. What I settled on wasn't the "typical" 9, 12 and 3, but that was over a pound of lead I'd added....

WHOA NELLY! Karl is the world's strongest tennis player!!! No wonder he's so well known on the boards....




(I think you mean 1 ounce buddy!) ;-)
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Well, Spalding DID try to introduce a "pro" spec racket line with their Pro Stock series. These rackets had classy yet fun, lively paint jobs almost like modern art rackets with sun burst shades the color of tropical parrots streaking across origami matte black, white horizons. The kind of VISIONARY paint jobs both traditionalists and radical surfer dudes alike would like, and clearly something they invested in and took care to "create." They also received pretty decent press/promo as the "official" racket of the ATP Tour. The graphite used for these definitely felt high grade, and these were just in general rackets you know Spalding put a lot into. They really wanted these too succeed, and I think for a dying company it was their last big, concerted push to try and recapture some of their previous presence in tennis...it/they failed miserably, however.

It was not long before you could get rackets from this "pro stock" line for next to nothing on clearance at places like Overstock.com.

Having tried the Pro Stock 200, the reason was DEFINITELY not quality, fit, or finish...let alone feel and playability which were both outstanding.

The problem with this line in my opinion was that everyone just looked at the huge stock weights, got intimidated, and just said whoa, never in a million years, no way...who do they think I am, He-Man?

In other words, it has been engrained into the public's minds that we are all a bunch of she-mans by comparison to the pros, who are thought to have some kind of mythic strength and ability to wield big sticks as if they were tooth picks.

As a result, no one gave the pro stock line a chance because they just thought it would never be practical for me to use something like that and still be effective...i.e. to actually win matches. Which too most of the buying public, kind of is the point. Even for a recreational player, you don't play to lose right? That doesn't make sense, you play to win...maybe not as seriously as the pros, but still NO ONE wants to walk off the court having lost a match and thinking gee it sure was a great feeling to hit with this "pro stock" racket, but gee, oh well, I still lost. Doesn't work that way.

NOW, with this board, however; I have to think that among serious tennis hobbyists, this rigid viewpoint has changed. In general, this board has TRULY revolutionized the way the average, "serious" tennis consumer looks at rackets. As a bunch, we are now FAR more educated and FAR more critical consumers. What's more the advent of **** and used goods boards, has I think also created a segment such as myself that no longer thinks it's worth it or justifiable to fork out full price for new rackets. There's now a hop scotch mentality, where people regularly buy and sell used rackets like dirty whures, never quite settling out of boredom and a general restlessness brought upon by the sudden availability and proliferation of perfectly fine and usable used goods. It's almost like a renter's market now.

In any case, these kinds of trends brought on by the liberating effect of an easily accessible mass public board, has caused a mentality where now the average tennis consumer is now far more restless and constantly trying to fine tune sticks and "experiment." It almost feels like a tennis hippy movement to me now, a new era was ushered in with the Tennis Warehouse message boards so many years ago in my opinion.

Given this, now once seemingly, are you crazy? ideas like the Spalding Pro Stock series, I think now would stand a far greater chance of suceeding.

Great concept, but definitely a case of wrong place, wrong time.

I think now, however, the time is ripe for another brave manufacturer to try and market such a concept as the pro stock line again. Perhaps, a Vantage line except one specializing in pro weighting concepts, with say a throat weighted design, a SW2 design, etc.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Btw, the perfect case in point, is Vantage. Now that is a line that NEVER EVER would have been taken seriously or even come close to having a chance of getting off the ground in the old, pre-TW board days. It's been a long, but steady evolution since. If you look back from the earliest conception of the board until now, you are now seeing by far the greatest evolution in the sophistication of your average tennis consumer's thought process--EVER. It's like all things in life, the more we know, the more we crave. While people initially scoffed at travlerjam's and John Cauthen's theories, the acceptance and more important CURIOSITY to experiment ourselves has gone up. You don't have to accept a theory, but gradually, that even the possibility of a new thought is brought up, leads to EVOLUTION as a whole. In a few years, I would not be surprised at all having already seen the remarkable evolution in the average "serious" tennis hobbyist since the beginning of these boards, to be that one step further.

The scary thing is (well, for the manufacturer's at least) is that they NO LONGER have a monopoly on our tennis playing minds, we no longer buy into their ads, or really even look into there glossy magazine ads whearas before we used to literally HANG on them, and on every word, their copywriters came up with about how and so and so latest and greatest technology was going to turn me into a regular old, heat-seaking, Kalashinikov on the court.

I wonder how scary this is for manufacturers, because to me at least, I think it's clear that they ARE losing control over us.


"Great, now the ungrateful, 3.5, little minions are growing minds of their own, now! Sheesh, (throws up papers of their latest and greatest copywriting material up in the air)...," I can hear it in a corporate board room somewhere high up in the sky right now.
 

thomas martinez

Professional
I do not think so much that the weight of the Spalding line is what caused it to be so poor, but rather the lack of more mass market frames aimed at your average player rather then pro wannabes. Throw in the name was not well recieved thanks to their previous line of frames, and the lack of distribution is what truely sunk their rackets.
 

grizzly4life

Professional
john cauthen?? thanks for the info on pro's and their lead taping... and i cheered your brother in the kentucky derby:p

i had wondered where the pro's put their lead tape in general..... i always see reference to putting lead tape on the hoop, often near the top (like in the SW2, thread which i find interesting but wonder about the accuracy of many statements).

anyhow, when you look at the pro racquet and weighting list, they seem to play quite heavy, but HL meaning much more of the weight much go on closer to the handle. the reason i say much more is if you add a significant of weight to both ends, that will just make it harder to achieve extreme HL......

john, thanks again!!
 
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