weight training: how many sets?

heycal

Hall of Fame
This came up in another thread, and comes up from time to time here and elsewhere: Is there truly a benefit to doing more sets of a given exercise? Is 2 sets better than 1, 3 sets better than 2, and so on (within reason)? Has this question ever been adequately resolved?

Let's take my own workout for instance: I lift weights every 72 hours (in addition to aerobic type stuff on other days), and my goal is look fairly fit, fight fat, and have some decent looking muscles for an average 48 year old man. I currently do about 7 different exercises, for 2 sets each of between 6-10 reps, working to failure each set. At this point, I'm pretty much just maintaining what I have, and not trying to constantly increase my loads more than slightly, if at all.

I'm essentially happy enough with this routine, but I do wonder: what benefit am I currently getting from that second set? Would I get the exact same or a nearly identical benefit if I cut out the second set of each exercise and just did 1 set to failure? If so, that would be terrific obviously.

Alternatively, if I did 3 sets of each exercise instead of my current 2, would I see an obvious benefit of some sort?

Please share your thoughts, experiences, and latest studies on the issue on the number of sets.
 
Theres really no certain amount. Everyone is told different things but my dad is a personal trainer and this is what he says.

Do 3 sets of isolation exercises and 4 sets of large compound exercises.

Stay in between 2-8 reps between each set and never do the same weight in a row. Either go up or down in weight but always stay within the 2-8 rep range.

Hope this helps!

-Steven
 

dlk

Hall of Fame
Theres really no certain amount. Everyone is told different things but my dad is a personal trainer and this is what he says.

Do 3 sets of isolation exercises and 4 sets of large compound exercises.

Stay in between 2-8 reps between each set and never do the same weight in a row. Either go up or down in weight but always stay within the 2-8 rep range.

Hope this helps!

-Steven

This is similar to what I do. Have about 24 differerent excercises that I rotate throughout the week every-other day (chest/tri's, back/bi's, shoulders/legs). One day running (sit-ups all three days), one day bike, one day Nordic track, & one day rest (I walk ~2 miles on rest day).

I'm small, so lifting certainly helped fight Father Time & gave me a lot of power playing, usually rare to find 3.0 that is as powerful (usually younger big guys).
 

Don't Let It Bounce

Hall of Fame
OP: my age, fitness goals, and routine are similar to yours. The best info I've come across has been Rob Faigin's Natural Hormonal Enhancement (which contains ~17,000 references to medical and fitness studies) and Hormonally Intelligent Exercise. Faigin's position on number of sets, (which I've seen elsewhere from other authors), is that while more sets is better, there is a diminishing returns effect, so he recommends two sets for most exercises.

It's a good compromise that also takes into account time efficiency (one set only = losing pre-cortisol-release workout time while setting up for twice as many exercises), maximizing adaptation by using different exercises, forcing muscle groups to work when tired, etc.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Something that really irritates me is getting hurt from lifting, since my goal is to get stronger, more sound, and hopefully injury free when I exerting myself on the tennis court, etc. The lifting should only contribute to my well being.

In my younger "warrior years", I could push bigger weights around when trying to get stronger for rugby, scuba diving, and all that cheeze (I prefer it with the "z" in this case). I'm not interested in benching big numbers or any of that now, so I look to lift with a little wisdom. For the record, I'm 44.

What works well for me when lifting is doing two sets of any given exercise. I use moderate weight so that my sets have more rep's, maybe in the range of 15-20, and I deliberately take a very short break between sets so that I quickly catch my breath and get my tired muscles working again. That second set may go the same number of rep's, but if I'm tired, I may poop out after only 6-8 rep's. My objective is to initially make a muscle group tired and then push it a bit more.

For me, this approach gives me both strength and endurance, but since I'm also not pushing big loads of iron near the limit of my ability, I don't get hurt, just tired. The other thing that I like is that I can lift safely without a spotter - but I'm not bench pressing or doing anything where a bar would need to be lifted off of me if I got into trouble. Even if I'm doing push-ups, I like to do a set of maybe 25, rest for a breath or two, then knock out 25 more.

If I feel great and blow right through my second set, maybe I'll do a third but in my next session, I'll just use a little more weight and generally keep everything to two sets. I've also enjoyed my best recovery and progress with two days rest between lifting days.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
^^ The OP isn't trying to get bigger, so that link isn't really on topic.

The OP is "working out"....."getting a good sweat"......"just trying to stay in shape"......etc.

As such, I don't think number of sets or reps really matters nor does the choice of exercise (for the most part). Just be reasonably consistent and don't get hurt.
 

larry10s

Hall of Fame
Theres really no certain amount. Everyone is told different things but my dad is a personal trainer and this is what he says.

Do 3 sets of isolation exercises and 4 sets of large compound exercises.

Stay in between 2-8 reps between each set and never do the same weight in a row. Either go up or down in weight but always stay within the 2-8 rep range.

Hope this helps!

-Steven

2-8 reps is designed to build mass as in bodybuilding
a tennis player needs a weight he can handle 12-15 reps
icbw
 

heycal

Hall of Fame
It's a good compromise that also takes into account time efficiency (one set only = losing pre-cortisol-release workout time while setting up for twice as many exercises), maximizing adaptation by using different exercises, forcing muscle groups to work when tired, etc.

Can you elaborate on this? Got lost at the cortisol part.

Something that really irritates me is getting hurt from lifting, since my goal is to get stronger, more sound, and hopefully injury free when I exerting myself on the tennis court, etc. The lifting should only contribute to my well being.

Pretty much my first goal when doing any form of exercise: "do no harm". Every time I walk off the tennis court after losing (which is often) I say to myself "at least I didn't get hurt!

^^ The OP isn't trying to get bigger, so that link isn't really on topic.

The OP is "working out"....."getting a good sweat"......"just trying to stay in shape"......etc.

As such, I don't think number of sets or reps really matters nor does the choice of exercise (for the most part). Just be reasonably consistent and don't get hurt.

So are you suggesting that if I dropped the second set from each exercise there would be no loss in fitness?

2-8 reps is designed to build mass as in bodybuilding
a tennis player needs a weight he can handle 12-15 reps
icbw

Not interested in weight training for tennis, but just general fitness and appearance. I'm not a good enough player where any of this kind of stuff is gonna matter.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
Another consideration for effective training is keeping it fresh. Your body has an amazing ability to get used to things so, for example, doing the push-ups in the same way forever is nowhere near as beneficial as every couple of workouts doing a day with fewer reps but with a weight on your back, or a different hand position (or using push-up bars). Alternative workouts can usually be found for anything - and they're well work switching to every now and then.

People get so easily stuck in a groove of what is comfortable and that results in diminishing returns from workouts. There's many ways to look at the more/less reps argument but generally you'd probably be better off to vary it every few workouts to keep your muscles on their toes.
 
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r2473

G.O.A.T.
So are you suggesting that if I dropped the second set from each exercise there would be no loss in fitness?

I follow the same advice I am giving you. Now that I am just concentrating on weight loss, I just go into the weight room and do "whatever". It really doesn't matter. In fact, I will probably just switch over to bodyweight exercises for the next 6 months.
 

spacediver

Hall of Fame
^^ The OP isn't trying to get bigger, so that link isn't really on topic.

true that.


The OP is "working out"....."getting a good sweat"......"just trying to stay in shape"......etc.

As such, I don't think number of sets or reps really matters nor does the choice of exercise (for the most part). Just be reasonably consistent and don't get hurt.

Not sure I entirely agree here. There is something to be said for the wisdom of choosing smart movements in the gym. I think it's a mild tragedy when I observe countless folks wasting their energies on useless movements doing 30+ reps all the time.

At 48 years old, there is even more reason to want to develop functional strength and load the joints sufficiently to curb off atrophy and maintain bone density.
 

Itagaki

Semi-Pro
2-8 reps is designed to build mass as in bodybuilding
a tennis player needs a weight he can handle 12-15 reps
icbw

Doing more than 12 reps of anything is a waste of time. 2-8 reps is not designed for anything, its a wide range, the lower is more conducive for building strength, higher is achieving more hypertrophy and there is no magical rep range for tennis players.

The one exception to my first sentence is a 20 rep squat program

To the OP, there really is not absolute set and rep range. There are a variety of programs with different schemes. Its best to focus on compound movements(squat, deadlift, bench, OHP all with good technique) and only do isolation if you REALLY want to or you reach a more intermediate level of strength.

Consider looking up Starting Strength and Stronglifts 5x5
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Not sure I entirely agree here. There is something to be said for the wisdom of choosing smart movements in the gym. I think it's a mild tragedy when I observe countless folks wasting their energies on useless movements doing 30+ reps all the time.

At 48 years old, there is even more reason to want to develop functional strength and load the joints sufficiently to curb off atrophy and maintain bone density.

Yes and no.

There are as many training philosophies are there are people. Unless you are doing more than just "general fitness", I don't think it matters too much.

As an aside, most people that think they are "killin' it" in the gym are really just doing "general fitness"......they are just more intense about it..........well, for a few weeks / months anyway :)
 

spacediver

Hall of Fame
Yes and no.

There are as many training philosophies are there are people. Unless you are doing more than just "general fitness", I don't think it matters too much.

Agreed that there are many different training philosophies. But there are good philosophies and bad philosophies, and people without philosophies.

As for the general fitness comment, that's a pretty vague and meaningless term, especially in the context of this thread, which is asking a question about weightlifting. Also keep in mind that one of the goals of the OP is to have "decent looking muscles", and that he already does aerobic stuff on other days.

My personal recommendation is to prioritize compound movements, and at some point, work with weights that you can only lift for 4-8 reps or so. You can periodize your program so that you aren't always lifting with such intensity.

It is also wise to incorporate some form of progressive loading so that you force your body to adapt. This will be a great tool to tipping the balance in favour of muscle synthesis. Muscle tissue is in a constant state of synthesis and breakdown. If the rate of synthesis is greater than that of breakdown, you will grow. If it is at equilibrium, you will maintain. So once you have grown to where you want, you can adjust your training and diet to maintain.

There is something to be said about compound movements. You get more bang for your buck, in terms of innervating more muscle tissue per rep. But perhaps more importantly, you will develop neuromuscular adaptations that allow multiple muscle groups, spanning multiple joints, to be activated as a single functional unit. Things like deadlifts and squats are prime examples of this. They are, in my opinion, some of the "healthiest" movements to master.

At 48 years old (which is still relatively young), I suspect the benefits of smart lifting will be even more well received than if one were younger.

Finally, no matter what movements you train, invest in good form.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
^^ I guess I'm just more cynical than you. I see very few people "working hard" in the gym. Everyone thinks they are, but few really are. As such, I don't really think there is much benefit for most people to get too technical or over-think it too much.

What you say is true. But for someone to:

1) understand what you are really saying

2) execute what you are saying reasonably well

3) execute what you are saying consistently over a period of time

is asking a lot. Everyone will think they are doing it. Few will do it.

I recall when I was running long-distance, it took me years to accumulate a "decent" mileage base. Few will stick with anything consistently for that long. I am very skeptical of people that have achieved "amazing" results in little time. The amazing results are always superficial.
 

heycal

Hall of Fame
To elaborate a bit more on my goals and workout: Yes, I want to keep decent muscles, so I do want to be challenging them wih heavy loads. If I can do 12 reps of an exercise, I increase the weight. (So the idea of switching to bodyweight exercises for six months, for instance, makes me fear I'd lose some 'mass', such as it is.)

I'm all about bang for the buck, both exercise wise and time wise, and about moderation so I can keep doing something for months or years on end. So I do mostly compound movements, and lift only every 3 days. I have decent form, and try and push myself to failure with each set, even if I don't quite "kill myself" for that last rep. I'm not big on changing up routines even though everyone seems to say you should. I seem to find an exercise I like and don't change it for months on end, like dumbbell presses, chin ups, rows, and leg press. I don't want to be always dreaming up on new things to do. I like having a routine I can follow mindlessly.

I've been following versions of the above pretty consistently for 15 or 20 years. The only difference in my current regimen is much more aerobics -- 30 min jogs every 3 days, and 30 minutes of swimming 'wind sprints' every 3 days. Adding that to my weight regimen really helped me get much fitter.

Again, my most pressing question at this point, and the thrust of this thread, is "What benefit am I gettting from that second set?" If I can get the same results with 1 set, I'd love to shave off those boring extra sets and minutes. But I can live with them if they are helping.
 
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OldButGame

Hall of Fame
There is a belief in some circles that if you take a set to extreme failure, (beyond just normal failure,...e.g. drop sets, forced reps, decending sets, etc) then one set of any movement is all you need. See the work of Arthur Jones, developer of the 'Nautilus' equipment. His theories and ideas are very ineresting. And while, in my opinion, they be somewhat of an 'overstatement' of hgh intensity weightlifting,....the ideas he espouses still have some merit and good points.

You addressed what your goals were and that is really a prime consideration. Despite what some have said,....there is value in doing sets of even 20 or 50 or more,....if a persons goal were to achieve more 'muscle stamina' as opposed to pure size and strength.
And in regard to the 2nd set in question,....if a person did one set, and with very little rest, followed with the second set,....one of the results would be an increase in muscle stamina as well as strength.
However this would come at the cost of increased time and energy. Its all about your personal goals and what your seeking. (IMO)
 
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spacediver

Hall of Fame
There is a belief in some circles that if you take a set to extreme failure, (beyond just normal failure,...e.g. drop sets, forced reps, decending sets, etc) then one set of any movement is all you need. See the work of Arthur Jones, developer of the 'Nautilus' equipment. His theories and ideas are very ineresting. And while, in my opinion, they be somewhat of an 'overstatement' of hgh intensity weightlifting,....the ideas he espouses still have some merit and good points.

Yes, the HIT methodology is what I've primarily used since I started lifting 8 years ago. I've had excellent results with it, but I do understand that there are other schools of thought.

I stick with HIT because it is easy on my schedule and has produced great results (I workout twice a week, sometimes less if I'm playing a lot of tennis). I flirted with Bryan Haycock's HST for a while, but found the volume to be taxing on my body and nutritional needs.


I do two working sets, anywhere from 4 to 8 reps, and about 3 warmup sets.
 

coyfish

Hall of Fame
Every method has its pro's and con's and everyone is different. So how each person responds is unique and individual. Some people respond better to higher set training like HIIT while others respond better to very short bouts of extreme intensity such has HIT. While others respond best to a moderate / more traditional approach. Or you can cycle them all if you please ...


Give your 100% and eat properly and you will get good results doing basically any routine from p90x to traditional workouts. That is really all there is to it. You can make things as complicated as you want but work hard and the results will come . . . simple as that.

Also time shouldn't be an issue. Whether you do high rep workouts or HIT training your weight training workouts shouldn't exceed 1 hour. If they do you are resting too long or not intense enough. My workouts rarely exceed 40 minutes and I do rest significantly.


That being said true HIT isn't the best routine for novices. It can be done but the whole premise of Arthur jones / etc. is to push yourself to ridiculous levels of intensity. That IS NOT POSSIBLE unless you have a solid foundation / spotter. To try and push yourself that hard is actually very dangerous without someone there. And actually HIT is meant to be used with high quality machines (nautilus) not available at your typical gym. There are many variations on HIT though.
 

OldButGame

Hall of Fame
Dr.Ellington Darden,...another really interesting author, expanded HIT training in several books, to be applied with all workouts, and also with free weights.

Pushing to REALLY high intensities is a premise as Coy said through it all. It would be difficult for novices primarily due to a somewhat sophistocated understanding of methods & techniques, of 'overtaxing' the muscles in a given exercise. These methods however can be learned form otherrs, books, in a gym, and even online.

The biggest "danger" that comes with it is the potentiality for 'overtraining'.
Its very easy to burn out or overtrain with this if not given enough rest days.

Typically its thought that novices 'systems' actually lack the ability to push 'too far'. they haven't innervated the nervous system enough nor built enough strength to pose much of a risk as those who have been working out longer. The longer one has been working out, the stronger one has gotten, the more he 'blasts' his system with HIT training and the more rest this individual requires.
 

spacediver

Hall of Fame
That being said true HIT isn't the best routine for novices. It can be done but the whole premise of Arthur jones / etc. is to push yourself to ridiculous levels of intensity. That IS NOT POSSIBLE unless you have a solid foundation / spotter. To try and push yourself that hard is actually very dangerous without someone there. And actually HIT is meant to be used with high quality machines (nautilus) not available at your typical gym. There are many variations on HIT though.



I get around the problem of spotting by choosing exercises that don't require em.

I do weighted dips, weighted chins, romanian deadlifts, dumbell presses, one arm dumbell rows, and will soon reintroduce squats.
 

OldButGame

Hall of Fame
Yeah,...i long ago went to dumbell presses as a substitute for barbell presses for exactly that reason,....no bar to lose across your neck or chest. One thing to be careful of with those,...if You start going heavy with those,...and IF you drop elbows really deep,..it can wreak havoc with your shoulders!!!! (been there, done that:()
 

OrangeOne

Legend
This came up in another thread, and comes up from time to time here and elsewhere: Is there truly a benefit to doing more sets of a given exercise? Is 2 sets better than 1, 3 sets better than 2, and so on (within reason)? Has this question ever been adequately resolved?

Let's take my own workout for instance: I lift weights every 72 hours (in addition to aerobic type stuff on other days), and my goal is look fairly fit, fight fat, and have some decent looking muscles for an average 48 year old man. I currently do about 7 different exercises, for 2 sets each of between 6-10 reps, working to failure each set. At this point, I'm pretty much just maintaining what I have, and not trying to constantly increase my loads more than slightly, if at all.

I'm essentially happy enough with this routine, but I do wonder: what benefit am I currently getting from that second set? Would I get the exact same or a nearly identical benefit if I cut out the second set of each exercise and just did 1 set to failure? If so, that would be terrific obviously.

Alternatively, if I did 3 sets of each exercise instead of my current 2, would I see an obvious benefit of some sort?

Please share your thoughts, experiences, and latest studies on the issue on the number of sets.

With your goals, I am more than comfortable in saying that the difference between 1 set to failure and 2 sets to failure will be somewhat minimal. Your definition of 'nearly identical' would be quite relevant here imho.

That said, we're all different, so why not try it for a few months and see? Monitor and see if you put on weight, and monitor and see if you lose significant strength. Some people need the volume, some people can do little and achieve good results.

I will say this: anyone doing a 1-set protocol should find a way to warm-up appropriately first.
 

spacediver

Hall of Fame
I'm not big on changing up routines even though everyone seems to say you should. I seem to find an exercise I like and don't change it for months on end, like dumbbell presses, chin ups, rows, and leg press. I don't want to be always dreaming up on new things to do. I like having a routine I can follow mindlessly.

I'm with you here. I think people take the "general adaptation principle" way too far by recommending regular changeups to "confuse" your muscles. I remember a few years back a girl recommended that I confuse my body by changing up my diet on a regular basis - sigh...

I'm like you - I spend months if not years mastering a small number of high value movements, then I cautiously introduce more into the mix. I am the same way with my diet too.

It sounds like you training in a fairly rigorous and well balanced manner. I can't speak to your specific question about whether a second set is useless (or how much marginal returns are involved).

What I can say is that I've achieved great results by doing only two working sets. I've never experimented with one set as it's not too big of a deal to put in that extra set each workout, especially considering I only do 2 or 3 exercises per workout, and two workouts per week.

One thing to keep in mind is that there is this idea that the total number of reps per workout may in some ways be important (rather than only reps per set). Perhaps a good heuristic may be to keep up the two sets if you find that you are lifting a lower number of reps on the second set (especially when lifting very heavy). This may be an indicator that you are taxing the muscles sufficiently to cause a performance drop by the end of the second set.

You may gain some insight by reading this article:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/the-5x5-program.html

In it, Lyle discusses many interpretations of the 5x5 program (some of which can comprise 3 "warmup" sets and 2 "working" sets).
 

OrangeOne

Legend
I remember a few years back a girl recommended that I confuse my body by changing up my diet on a regular basis - sigh...

I don't know that I like the word 'confuse', but changing diet regularly is generally good advice. I'm not saying you, but many people eat a suprisingly narrow range of foods, and thus miss out on important nutrients.

Telling joe schmoe to change up their diet regularly may mean to have a salad as a change, or a salmon risotto instead of a steak and chips, or veggies instead of chips. Or anything instead of chips :D
 

Kobble

Hall of Fame
I predict that if you go from 2 sets to failure to 1 set to failure, you will lose some strength. That will be a volume cut of nearly 50%. You might gain a bit of strength for a week or two, from dissipating any built up fatigue, but after that, the overall strength will likely drop. From my experience, volume (lbs. X reps) matters. In the past, I have swtiched routines as follows.

A:

Freq. = 5x a week
Volume = greater
Not to failure

B:

Freq = 3x a week
Volume = Lesser
Lift to failure

After switching from A to B, I lost strength within 2 weeks.

Recently, I have added volume, and my strength is going back up. Same intensity, frequency, rest between sets, but more total sets. Upped my reps per workout from 16 to 20 reps, and I'm testing stronger.
 

coyfish

Hall of Fame
All it takes is 10 minutes of research to find a ton of great exercises. Changing your routine isn't to "confuse your muscles." Muscle confusion is a load of BS to market p90x. The point of changing your routine is to stimulate different parts of your muscles.

As a novice / beginner it really doesn't matter but as you progress changing your routine will prove more beneficial. Now changing doesn't mean completely alter everything you do drastically. That is what I think you are assuming which is incorrect. Change for me are just little things. Example: One week I like to do all barbell presses. The next week ill do only dumbbell. The next ill do a mix of barbell, dumbbell, and cable . . . They are the same motions but slightly different aspects of your muscles are stimulated. That is the reality behind "muscle confusion." It isn't that you are shocking but simply training an aspect you didn't train previously.

I have staple exercises that I do 3/4 of the time like squat, deadlift, and benchpress but the rest I switch up. It can simply be a grip change (wide grip to narrow grip bicep curls) or a complete exercise change. Regardless it is a good habit to get into and really isn't much work at all. One google search will show you hundreds of routines. Also it keeps things more fun . . .
 

heycal

Hall of Fame
With your goals, I am more than comfortable in saying that the difference between 1 set to failure and 2 sets to failure will be somewhat minimal. Your definition of 'nearly identical' would be quite relevant here imho.

I guess the question is what is "nearly identical" and "somewhat minimal"?

. I remember a few years back a girl recommended that I confuse my body by changing up my diet on a regular basis - sigh...

I've heard this about diet as well. I take it to mean that every few days it's okay if I eat 5 donuts or 4 slices of pizza instead of 1 donut and 1 slice.


What I can say is that I've achieved great results by doing only two working sets. I've never experimented with one set as it's not too big of a deal to put in that extra set each workout, especially considering I only do 2 or 3 exercises per workout, and two workouts per week.

Are you saying you get great results with as little as 6 sets, twice a week? How long does this workout take you? 12 minutes or so each time?



One thing to keep in mind is that there is this idea that the total number of reps per workout may in some ways be important (rather than only reps per set). Perhaps a good heuristic may be to keep up the two sets if you find that you are lifting a lower number of reps on the second set (especially when lifting very heavy). This may be an indicator that you are taxing the muscles sufficiently to cause a performance drop by the end of the second set.

I am definitely doing fewer reps on the second set. The typical way it goes is I do about 8-10 reps the first set -- whatever number it takes me to reach failure that day -- and rest between 30-60 seconds before starting the second set. If I keep the same weight, as I usually do, I can only do between maybe 4-8 reps before failure during the second set. (Again, by "failure", I mean a moderate definition of failure, nothing extreme. I will not try and kill myself to see if I can squeeze out one more rep.)

So, what might that mean in regards to whether there is much value in doing that second set?


After switching from A to B, I lost strength within 2 weeks.

Recently, I have added volume, and my strength is going back up. Same intensity, frequency, rest between sets, but more total sets. Upped my reps per workout from 16 to 20 reps, and I'm testing stronger.

I find it hard to know exactly how strong I am, or how much I can lift. Seems like some days I can squeeze out more reps or lift more weight than other days. It hardly seems steady and predictable.

Change for me are just little things. Example: One week I like to do all barbell presses. The next week ill do only dumbbell. The next ill do a mix of barbell, dumbbell, and cable . . .

There may be value in this, but psychologically, I hate the idea of this. It seems like I'd never know how much weight I could lift or what to set the machine at, etc, and I'd never be making any progress because I keep switching. (I'm not saying I'm right -- I'm just saying that's how it SEEMS to me.)
 
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r2473

G.O.A.T.
There are as many training philosophies are there are people.

Let's see........how many different people posted in this thread?

I think I agree with everything SystemicAnomaly and charliefederer have written in this and all recent "heycal" threads.............................
 

heycal

Hall of Fame
Let's see........how many different people posted in this thread?

I think I agree with everything SystemicAnomaly and charliefederer have written in this and all recent "heycal" threads.............................

I suspect I'm not the only one who has no idea what this post means. Plus, I can't remember either of these guys posting in any thread of mine.
 

coyfish

Hall of Fame
I guess the question is what is "nearly identical" and "somewhat minimal"?














There may be value in this, but psychologically, I hate the idea of this. It seems like I'd never know how much weight I could lift or what to set the machine at, etc, and I'd never be making any progress because I keep switching. (I'm not saying I'm right -- I'm just saying that's how it SEEMS to me.)


That is a poor attitude to approach such a dynamic activity. That is like saying I will only attack the backhand of my opponent despite not knowing his game or how I am playing that day. You have to try new things and adapt. It really isn't that complicated. Maybe you should hire a good trainer for a few weeks so you won't have to think . . . just learn.

You can't expect to go in the gym and know everything and the perfect weight you can lift / etc. Just like anything it takes practice and experience. If you are not willing to put in the effort to try new things and experiment than you will only hurt yourself in the long run.



If you progress you will know it. You will look, feel, and be stronger.
 
Let's see........how many different people posted in this thread?

I think I agree with everything SystemicAnomaly and charliefederer have written in this and all recent "heycal" threads.............................

Okay, I'll bite.

I think if heycal reduces the amount of work he is doing in his workout by 50% he will eventually end up not as strong as he is now. But any reduction would occur only slowly. So if he does not like the direction, he can go back to his previous two set routine.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
^^ I know Systemic Anomaly will NEVER post in a Heycal thread / offer advice to heycal ever again. I remember that thread. I assumed you and heycal must have had a similar run in.

Most of this set / rep talk (which goes on endlessly on every fitness / weightlifting site) is just mental masturbation anyway. Everybody does it a little differently and most people achieve similar results to each other.

Consistency is really the most important thing. And most people aren't very consistent over months / years........but they can go like hell from Jan. 1 thru Jan. 15.
 

big bang

Hall of Fame
Theres really no certain amount. Everyone is told different things but my dad is a personal trainer and this is what he says.

Do 3 sets of isolation exercises and 4 sets of large compound exercises.

Stay in between 2-8 reps between each set and never do the same weight in a row. Either go up or down in weight but always stay within the 2-8 rep range.

Hope this helps!

-Steven

Very good basic advice, you cant go wrong doing this!.

2-8 reps is designed to build mass as in bodybuilding
a tennis player needs a weight he can handle 12-15 reps
icbw
Complete BS! you are not building strenght this way..
 

heycal

Hall of Fame
If you are not willing to put in the effort to try new things and experiment than you will only hurt yourself in the long run.

I've been lifting weights my way for a couple of decades with few, in any problems. So at what point do I have to worry about injuries in the "long run"?

That is a poor attitude to approach such a dynamic activity. That is like saying I will only attack the backhand of my opponent despite not knowing his game or how I am playing that day. You have to try new things and adapt..

Why is that a poor attitude? Why do I have to "try things and adapt"? I could just as easily say you lack the discipline to stick with one routine for long enough, and that's a bad attitude.


Okay, I'll bite.

I think if heycal reduces the amount of work he is doing in his workout by 50% he will eventually end up not as strong as he is now. But any reduction would occur only slowly. So if he does not like the direction, he can go back to his previous two set routine.

Seems sensible. I may try it.

^^ I know Systemic Anomaly will NEVER post in a Heycal thread / offer advice to heycal ever again. I remember that thread. I assumed you and heycal must have had a similar run in.

Don't you know what happens when you assume?

Yes, me and systemic anomaly have had some run ins, and it's likely I may not offer him advice again, but what's the relevance of that to this thread?

It seems the only mental masturbation going on in this thread is by you trying to stir up trouble. Most of the rest of us are having a fine discussion.
 

coyfish

Hall of Fame
I've been lifting weights my way for a couple of decades with few, in any problems. So at what point do I have to worry about injuries in the "long run"?



Why is that a poor attitude? Why do I have to "try things and adapt"? I could just as easily say you lack the discipline to stick with one routine for long enough, and that's a bad attitude.




Seems sensible. I may try it.



Don't you know what happens when you assume?

Yes, me and systemic anomaly have had some run ins, and it's likely I may not offer him advice again, but what's the relevance of that to this thread?

It seems the only mental masturbation going on in this thread is by you trying to stir up trouble. Most of the rest of us are having a fine discussion.


By hurt I didn't mean injury. I meant you won't reap the full benefit of the time you put in. Seems to me like you are are trying to maximize your time / benefit ratio yet you are doing the opposite by not integrating at least a little variety.

It is a poor attitude because weightlifting, like tennis, is a dynamic activity. You have to change / try new things to find what works best for you. If not you don't reap your full potential. Regardless if you just think about it logically / scientifically for a second you will understand the purpose of integrating some variety.

Anyway this is just semantics. As I mentioned earlier most people are looking for modest results that can be achieved with simply commitment and intensity.
 

heycal

Hall of Fame
Ok, so i forgot about the great (!?) discursive style here or hereabouts. Have fun people.

Don't be put off by R275's trouble-making. All who want to stay on topic are most welcome to post.

By hurt I didn't mean injury. I meant you won't reap the full benefit of the time you put in. Seems to me like you are are trying to maximize your time / benefit ratio yet you are doing the opposite by not integrating at least a little variety.

It is a poor attitude because weightlifting, like tennis, is a dynamic activity. You have to change / try new things to find what works best for you. If not you don't reap your full potential. Regardless if you just think about it logically / scientifically for a second you will understand the purpose of integrating some variety.

Anyway this is just semantics. As I mentioned earlier most people are looking for modest results that can be achieved with simply commitment and intensity.

I'm definitely trying to maximize my time/benefit ratio, but haven't been convinced that constantly switching routines, an approach that I find unappealing, is the best or only way to do it.
 

Kobble

Hall of Fame
^^ I know Systemic Anomaly will NEVER post in a Heycal thread / offer advice to heycal ever again. I remember that thread. I assumed you and heycal must have had a similar run in.

Most of this set / rep talk (which goes on endlessly on every fitness / weightlifting site) is just mental masturbation anyway. Everybody does it a little differently and most people achieve similar results to each other.

Consistency is really the most important thing. And most people aren't very consistent over months / years........but they can go like hell from Jan. 1 thru Jan. 15.
That is really the biggest weakness in most people's routine, it never lasts. A mediocre routine for 2 years is better than the greatest routine for two months.
 

dlk

Hall of Fame
^^ I know Systemic Anomaly will NEVER post in a Heycal thread / offer advice to heycal ever again. I remember that thread. I assumed you and heycal must have had a similar run in.

Most of this set / rep talk (which goes on endlessly on every fitness / weightlifting site) is just mental masturbation anyway. Everybody does it a little differently and most people achieve similar results to each other.

Consistency is really the most important thing. And most people aren't very consistent over months / years........but they can go like hell from Jan. 1 thru Jan. 15.

You Sir, have a way with words...LMAO
 

OldButGame

Hall of Fame
^^ I know Systemic Anomaly will NEVER post in a Heycal thread / offer advice to heycal ever again. I remember that thread. I assumed you and heycal must have had a similar run in.

Most of this set / rep talk (which goes on endlessly on every fitness / weightlifting site) is just mental masturbation anyway. Everybody does it a little differently and most people achieve similar results to each other.

Consistency is really the most important thing. And most people aren't very consistent over months / years........but they can go like hell from Jan. 1 thru Jan. 15.
As contentious as this post was, i have to agree. Failure to 'stay with it' 'failure to stay disciplined', and staying consistent,....is the biggest threat to success with any workout plan. Stay with it and the rest is just 'fine-tuning'. Stay with it and you're half-way home.

The importance of this would lend to the concept of 'mixing it up', keep it interesting, changing things periodically,..if for no other reason than to keep you on track.
 
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Kobble

Hall of Fame
Heycal, I would simply start testing you max strength, or max reps for given lift while fresh every two weeks. Log everything in a journal. That will allow you to go back weeks, months, and years, to see how you are progressing.

Changing Routines

As for not liking to switch up your routine, I don't believe in it much myself. If you want a better back squat, you should back squat. Specificity. I have found I can switch up from one similar exercise to another, and wind up stronger in the old exercise after some time and progress with the new. For instance, doing chinups instead of pronated pullups, but this isn't due to simply changing the exercise, it is due to pushing for more progress in whatever I am doing.

For instance, if you really want to progress at bench press, but are growing sick and tired of it, put more emphasis on another pressing movement, like the overhead press, or dumbell bench. Try to make progress at that. They all involve similar muscles. At some point you must specialize in a movement to get better at it. For most people, they will never be so close to their genetic limit that this becomes a reality.

Time efficiency

I think you are doing the right thing by training to failure. It condenses your training, and still gives you a good effect.

The only thing is, I don't know what your goals are. Are you just trying to be fit in general, or do you take some pride in a specific lift? If you really want to gain big in a specific lift, then you are better focusing all your energy on that.

Ex: Pressing workout - Bench press (2 sets to failure), Overhead press (2 sets to failure), DUmbell flys (2 sets to failure)

If you only care about a big bench press, I would switch to bench press only, and do 5 or more sets. As a matter of fact, I don't even put much value in assistance work.
 

OldButGame

Hall of Fame
One 'time -efficiency' thingy i adopted over the years was eliminating 'single limb exercises' (like concentration curls,...1 arm french presses,...etc)
These movements require you to do essentially 2 sets to work the muscle(on each limb) once. If i'm pressed for time i dont do these kinds of movements which is most of the time.
 

heycal

Hall of Fame
The importance of this would lend to the concept of 'mixing it up', keep it interesting, changing things periodically,..if for no other reason than to keep you on track.

Consistency is one of my strengths. I may rarely or never change an exercise, but I can do it for years on end!

The only thing is, I don't know what your goals are. Are you just trying to be fit in general, or do you take some pride in a specific lift? If you really want to gain big in a specific lift, then you are better focusing all your energy on that.

I just take pride in appearance, not in any specific lift, or in strength, or in health. I just want to look good, which to me means looking reasonably fit and semi-muscular with my shirt off, where someone might say "Gee, I didn't realize you were so fit, heycal! I guess you work out."

One 'time -efficiency' thingy i adopted over the years was eliminating 'single limb exercises' (like concentration curls,...1 arm french presses,...etc)
These movements require you to do essentially 2 sets to work the muscle(on each limb) once. If i'm pressed for time i dont do these kinds of movements which is most of the time.

Yup, I made the same decision years ago. If I can't do both arms or legs at once, I generally won't do that exercise.
 
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spacediver

Hall of Fame
Are you saying you get great results with as little as 6 sets, twice a week? How long does this workout take you? 12 minutes or so each time?

Yep in total I do 10 sets a week. I remember even once estimating how much time I actually spend lifting per month, and it's miniscule.

My workouts take me about an hour each. I take about 10-15 min to warm up my body (cycling, then a good session of arm circles to warm up the shoulders).

I also do a session with the foam roller for my lower body in the middle.


I am definitely doing fewer reps on the second set. The typical way it goes is I do about 8-10 reps the first set -- whatever number it takes me to reach failure that day -- and rest between 30-60 seconds before starting the second set. If I keep the same weight, as I usually do, I can only do between maybe 4-8 reps before failure during the second set. (Again, by "failure", I mean a moderate definition of failure, nothing extreme. I will not try and kill myself to see if I can squeeze out one more rep.)

So, what might that mean in regards to whether there is much value in doing that second set?


When I'm lifting heavy, I take about 10 minutes between each set. So for example, I'll do a set of weighted dips, go straight and do a set of weighted chinups. Then I'll do foam rolling for 10 minutes, and then go do my second set of dips and chins. When I do my deadlifts (which is the last exercise I do on one of the two days I workout), I rest for about 5-7 min between the sets.

30-60 secs is a pretty short rest time, but it may foster endurance adaptations.

I was suggesting that if you are lifting sufficiently heavy that your performance goes down between sets, it may mean that all those sets went to "good use". Just a speculative hunch.
 
In general, it is recommended that you do three sets of the exercises that work your larger muscles(chest, quads, back, etc) and 2 sets of the exercises that work your smaller muscles. Once again this is a general statement but seems to true, at least in my training.
 
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