weight transfer on stances!

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by pico, May 13, 2018.

  1. pico

    pico New User

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    hi guys. I need help on this as some ppl i play against have got me confused. They keep telling me i need to load on my left leg on the forehand. However, I dont think they realise I mostly hit open stance. Anyways, just to confirm - on open stance, you load on the right leg (right handed) and for semi open stance and closed stance, you load on the left leg?
     
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  2. FiReFTW

    FiReFTW Hall of Fame

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    You always load on your right leg as a right handed player, even in a neutral (some call it closed) stance.

    On a neutral stance you load on your right leg, then as you swing you step into the shot and transfer your weight to your front foot.

    Those people are clueless.
     
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  3. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    Have to disagree here.

    If you go closed stance (for righties this means left foot stepping over the equator) then you most definitely plant and load your body weight on the front foot (which in this case is left leg).

    Open stance is going to be right leg and the left leg is the balance leg in this situation. In closed stance the back leg (right leg) is the balance leg that allows the weight to be shifted and concentrated on the front foot (which should be bent or lunged)
     
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  4. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    There are a few instances where a closed stance would be loaded on the back leg. But that is generally if you're moving backwards on a fadeaway forehand or moving left and your stance is closed on the last step. But you'll almost always finish wide open with the left foot finishing all the way left so your body is out open to the net.
     
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  5. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Semi-Pro

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    No comment but just a question. So even when you have time to get ready, you still hit with open stance????
     
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  6. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    If you have plenty of time to get ready there's no reason why you shouldn't take a few steps forward and hit a closed stance.

    Open stance has become way overdone in this day and age. You have way more power potential and control with a closed stance, but that's only when you have the proper option to hit it. Otherwise open stance should be your rally shot like 75% of the time.
     
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  7. WesternCK

    WesternCK New User

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    To answer your question, since no one has, the answer is yes. The only conclusion I can come to based on your post is that they are perhaps hinting that you should step into the ball more often. Not necessarily that it’s the only way to hit.
     
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  8. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    Put bluntly, anyone talking about 'loading your left leg' or 'stepping into the ball' is clueless. They're just regurgitating trite tips and I guarantee they can't provide any legitimate evidence in favor of closed stance. The people trying to get you to change your stance are just inviting you to retrogress and practice injury causing technique.

    No matter which stance, you lift and rotate off the outside (right) leg
     
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  9. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    You really don't know what it is you're talking about.

    Closed stance and stepping into the shot and loading on the front leg is a real thing.

    It's not a shot you will hit all the time. But to suggest it's injury inducing when I can show you all top players hitting closed stance forehands stepping in frequently, especially Fred who has the greatest forehand of all time, you really don't know what you're talking about.
     
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  10. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    For the record, you should be hitting open stance the majority of the time. But closed stance has merits and works well for certain shots. It also gives you more stability on certain shots. Find the right balance that works for you. Do not listen to Knox. He's a symptom of a bigger problem for what's wrong with tennis in America. Stupid dogma and people who do not fully understand biomechanics. Reading his comments and it's no surprise Men's Tennis in America is still behind despite having way way way more resources. Women's game can get away with it because it's just ball bashing.
     
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  11. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    Lol, just because pros use it doesn't mean it's not injury inducing. Pros, even Federer, have plenty of technical flaws.

    Like I said, nobody actually has an argument for closed stance over open stance. They just have fake believe.

    Mind you, I'm not against closed stance, you do have to use it sometimes, but you should only use it when you have to.
     
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  12. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    Please show me examples of Federer's technical flaws. As someone who has studied his technique at length for over 15 years, I'm more than happy to learn something new. I will debate his technique with anyone because I've seen it slightly modified and evolve but the core fundamentals have always been the same in terms of how he produces weight transfer. The only real argument in flaws in technique may have been his serve once upon a time. But his strokes are by far the most efficient on tour and mechanically clean.

    You don't play as many matches and strike as many balls as long as he has on all surfaces and still not have any arm issues or leg issues. He's never had any tennis injuries related to legs or arm or shoulder. Just lower back and the bathtub incident.

    Roger hits balls with the most efficient stance available based on court positioning, speed and heaviness of incoming ball, and shot selection. He has over 20 different forehands and he knows instinctively which one to use that is most optimal in the situation he's in. The weight transfer is not the same in all those forehands. Some forehands there's more legs. Some more torso. Some more arm. But it's usually the most efficient option given the situation he's in.
     
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  13. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    "No matter which stance, you lift and rotate off the outside (right) leg"

    Followed by:

    "Mind you, I'm not against closed stance, you do have to use it sometimes, but you should only use it when you have to."


    These two cannot co-exist. Because the majority of closed stance forehands, the front leg is the anchor and load leg for weight transfer.

    I like how you go from saying closed stance is fake news and trash to, well you do need to use it sometimes. If it's injury inducing as you say then you should never use it. But it's not. Closed stance done incorrectly will cause injury to the knee or foot. But any stance or technique done incorrectly is going to cause injurt regardless.
     
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  14. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    There's way more evidence that extreme semi and western grips cause more injuries than closed stance. Even done properly, extreme grips still have a higher risk of injury than closed stance done properly.
     
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  15. WesternCK

    WesternCK New User

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    First of all, when one is “stepping into the ball”, the most ideal stance is squared stance and not closed stance.

    Secondly, the benefit of stepping into the ball is to gain power as a result of weight transfer and linear momentum. It also ensures aggressive court positioning and takes time away from the opponent. Loading on the left leg in this situation can help with power due to the kinetic chain but also ensures that one is balanced prior to contact. I’ve seen too many players still with their front foot in the air as they try to make contact which results in inconsistency.

    As for the opinion that open stance should be used more often than closed stance or squared stance, this is certainly true for the pros. This is due to the depth and pace of balls they are receiving.

    When it comes to recreational players, I think it depends on age, as well as physical limitations. Open stance is much more demanding on the body and if you have someone who cannot put weight on their right leg, the linear momentum from stepping forward can help otherwise weak players gain depth as well as power on the shot. If someone has trouble rotating their body, then open stance is useless and even harmful to the body itself. In this case, there might be recreational players where hitting 70% of the time square stance and 30% open stance is actually more beneficial to them, even though the pros hit 80% open stance and 20% square/closed.
     
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  16. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    Cue all the self anointed tennis gurus to come and tell me how wrong I am.

    How many of you are actually educated and trained as tennis instructors with experience developing tennis players, and how many of you are just armchair experts who think they know something because they spend 10 hours a week on the tennis channel?
     
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  17. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    • I've been coaching/instructing/teaching for 11 years.
    • I have helped graduate more than a few kids to big box D1/D2 programs.
    • Spent 2 years as an assistant coach for a collegiate program.
    • And starting at the end of this month I will be traveling and coaching a client on the ATP Tour full-time.
    • I don't feel the need to keep expounding on my resume to satisfy your arrogance.

    Oh, and I loathe Tennis Channel's coverage. I only watch it when the players I want to see are on and even then it's a chore. Annacone is the only person I could listen to, and after 10 minutes he even becomes unbearable. Much prefer when they are using the ATP Feed with Koenig/Lester/Goodall.
     
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  18. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Semi-Pro

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    so were you trained as tennis instructor???
     
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  19. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    I'm not sure what you mean by this. There are certifications and classes you can pay for. But tennis instruction isn't just a one-sized fits all thing. If you don't have people skills, or oratory/communication skills you aren't going to be a good instructor/coach/teacher. And if you don't have analytical skills or a good eye, you definitely aren't going to be coaching elite performance players.

    I've met instructors and coaches that were highly decorated players, but they were pretty pedestrian or bad coaches. The most talented players don't always make the best developmental coaches.
     
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  20. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    I dare anyone talking about 'weight transfer' to actually break down the biomechanics of how 'weight transfer' generates power. I'll start up some popcorn
     
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  21. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    I love how you keep changing directions with your arguments. I also love how you've made nothing but claims, and keep demanding evidence yet provide none for yourself.
     
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  22. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    I like how you pretend like theres not already mountains of evidence proving outside-leg driven shots to be more powerful, safe, and efficient. I thought you've been studying for 15 years?
     
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  23. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    I pretty much agree with all of what you said. Although the first sentence is the one thing I will disagree on. Your stance is relative to what direction the ball is coming from + where you're aiming the ball. Your alignment with the incoming ball helps determine what you're trying to do with the ball. You can hit a forehand crosscourt, up the middle, or inside out with a closed stance. You could hit all 3 with a squared (neutral stance). You could hit all 3 with an open stance. One stance might be more efficient in getting the direction of shot you want, depending on your court positioning.
     
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  24. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    Again, more re-direction on your part.

    First it was: Closed Stance = Injury Riddled = Never use it and anyone suggesting you do are idiots.

    Second it was: I'm not against using closed stance in certain situations.

    Third it was: Please show me proof closed stance works.

    Fourth it was: You're all armchair tennis channel guys who don't know anything.

    Fifth it was: Please explain to me how weight transfer produces power.

    Sixth it's now: There's mountains of evidence piled up.

    ----

    I can't wait to see where this continues. Not a sliver of evidence produced for your argument. There's MOUNTAINS of them. The only thing you've produced in this thread are insults.
     
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  25. Knox

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    The people claiming things about switching to closed stance, people trying to convince OP to change, are the ones who carry the burden of proof. They need to make the argument and provide the evidence. That you think otherwise just proves that you're just talking fake believe.
     
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  26. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    If you read this thread, please quote and highlight where people have told him to switch to a closed stance, trying to convince him to change. You're clearly referring to me and western. Please highlight and quote with bold quotations, where we said unequivocally he should switch.
     
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  27. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    I'll do the work for you.


    So who here has advocated to OP that he should make a switch to closed stance full time?
     
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  28. Knox

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    OP Said: "I need help on this as some ppl i play against have got me confused. They keep telling me i need to load on my left leg on the forehand."

    I said: ~~Those people are clueless. They don't have evidence or an argument and are likely just repeating **** they've heard. On the contrary, there is lots evidence of closed causing injury (crazy torque on the left knee as it absorbs rotation) and open stance being generally superior

    You said: You're clueless. Don't listen to Knox.

    lol.

    Ok.

    I think you're acting territorial. It's really cute.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
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  29. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    lol at everything. But the bolded underlined is even worse because it's wrong altogether.

    Mind blowing revelation there. So it's actually ok to use it sometimes. Just only when you have to. But using it at all is going to injure you. So then I guess it's not ok to use it?

    Gotta give you props there. Takes a lot of balls to contradict yourself, one post after making a bold claim of the exact opposite of what you said.

    To go from "Don't use closed stance because it's an injury waiting to happen. Anyone suggesting you use it are idiots" to "I'm not against using it, you just need to use it when you have to". Very ballsy.

    This was lol.

    lol again.

    lol again.
     
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  30. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    Just ask me out already, you obviously have a crush.
     
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  31. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    You said "Put bluntly, anyone talking about 'loading your left leg' or 'stepping into the ball' is clueless."

    You're specifically coming after "those people" in OP's real life, as well as those of us in this thread before you arrived that were explaining to him closed stance pros and cons.

    You then spin it in 5 different directions. Even claiming that we're just tennis channel armchair fanboys while you are supremely educated in this subject.
     
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  32. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    The only way you'd need to worry about the torque on the left knee, is if you have your foot firmly planted into the ground. As in heels and toes firmly pushed into the ground like true anchor. Then your foot and leg is locked in that scenario and would then be at the mercy of the rest of your body weight twisting. The solution to that of course, is a bent knee so it's relaxed and not locked, and to allow the heel of the foot to rise and turn your foot on the follow through via your toe, as if you were stomping out a cigarette. This allows your planted foot and leg to turn naturally into the shot, with the rest of the kinetic chain without the stress of torque on your left knee. The only thing the right foot/leg does in this instance, is be the balance leg for the rest of your body to transfer the weight forward towards the front foot.

    That will take the burdensome load off the left knee. And this also assumes that you've distributed more of the kinetic chain through the torso and arm.
     
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  33. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    So when are you going to finish your character assassination attempt?
     
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  34. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    You've only been a member here for less than a year. You're too young.

    Only ask out members here that have been here pre-Nole 2.0. So before 2011.
     
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  35. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    You already tried the character assassination route silly. That's what this was for.

     
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  36. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    You've been on TW forums long enough to know that my question about formal training was definitely worth asking. In my first few months here I wasted so much energy arguing with trolls who act like experts, only to find out they've never actually trained a player or taken a coaching course.

    I also think you know that I'm not coming at you directly, I'm coming at people who advocate closed stance on every ball, which seems to be the people OP is dealing with. I think those people are clueless. I don't think you're one of those people. I do think you're kinda wigging out on me, and I understand why, but I also think it's silly.
     
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  37. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    If I misread who your attacks were directed to I will apologize. But you came into the thread with a pretty aggressive tone, when the posts above yours by mine and western were simply explaining pros and cons to OP about closed stance.
     
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  38. Knox

    Knox Rookie

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    I'm a ball blaster, I guess it comes out in my writing, haha.
     
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  39. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    All good.

    I stopped posting in this sub-forum for almost 2 years, as the last time I actually made a thread to contribute and give people advice, there were a few trolls constantly questioning my credentials and knowledge. It became more about personal attacks on who I was, my NTRP, trying to find out my real identity, and the actual people seeking real advice had their posts get lost in the sea of troll posts arguing back and forth with me. Got so bad to where moderator had to close and delete the thread. That was the last time I clicked and read this sub-forum. I peaked in here out of boredom tonight and wanted to help some people out. Your aggressive tone came in the thread pretty quick and gave me PTSD of those know-it-all trolls that I argued with before. So naturally my self-defense mechanism was to attack after feeling like I was being attacked.
     
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  40. Knox

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    The tennis tips/instruction forum is a honeypot for the narcissistic insane. I can only take it in small doses. This forum has taught me that it's best to reserve the teachings and high-effort instruction for paying customers.
     
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  41. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    I am an optimist. In real life, I give advice to those who aren't afraid to ask. Most of them eventually will wanna bite and pay for lessons. The few that don't, well part of my responsibility as a tennis coach is to help grow the game so I hope eventually they introduce their friends or more people to play. Some of those few eventually send referrals my way as well. I don't impose the salesman tactic anymore and tell people they need lessons. Already have a comfortable consistent clientele at the country club I work at to not have to worry about that. But even when I didn't have that clientele, I just never felt comfortable telling people they must or needed to take lessons. A lot of people don't have the income for that (lord knows I didn't when I started), so the ones that do always step forward to schedule and pay. And again, the ones that don't wanna pay, I've had them send people my way eventually despite not taking lessons from me themselves. So it evens out somehow.

    I've seen how insane this tips/instruction forum can be for almost 15 years (I lurked a few years before I posted). So every now and then I read some posts and try to help out people who I think are here asking for genuine advice. Sometimes it works, sometimes the trolls come out and bless us with their wonderful knowledge. I still marched on and tried to help. But the last time that I mentioned above, I was pretty upset as people were really trying to find out my personal identity. And there's no telling what those egomaniac trolls would try to do to my name in real life if they're already trying to cut my legs on an internet forum. That's why I took a sabbatical from this sub-forum for a long time. Because it just wasn't worth it. I still like to help and engage in healthy debate.
     
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  42. ptuanminh

    ptuanminh Semi-Pro

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    I don't think anyone can name a top 100 ATP pro that ONLY use open stance forehand.
     
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  43. Knox

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    They would if they could. But, they're playing against other pros who can force them to do things they don't want to do.
     
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  44. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    The closest I can think of is Fabio. Because he has almost no knee bend on either groundstroke. If he did hit closed stance, with that lack of knee bend he'd for sure be permanently crippled or tore some ACL and MCLs already.

    Donald Young is another one that I only see him hit a closed stance forehand from the baseline once a blue moon. He hits closed stance on some approaches. He absolutely loves open stance forehand even when it's not the optimal position to hit it.
     
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  45. MasturB

    MasturB Legend

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    Let's play find a closed stance forehand by Fabio Fognini






    I counted 2 in the entire 31 minute highlight vid. And even those 2 were borderline neutral/open.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
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  46. FiReFTW

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    @MasturB do you even know what loading means?
    Obviously not if you claim you load on the front leg in a neutral stance.
    How exactly do you expect to step into the ball if you load on ur left foot lol?
     
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  47. smalahove

    smalahove Hall of Fame

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    It always amazes me how much pace he can generate with an almost upright position.
    When I try that, I only manage weak shots. You need to have epic timing and hit the sweet zone consistently.
     
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  48. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    Optimally, forehands should be hit in an open stance.
     
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  49. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    I completely disagree. All forehands should be hit in an open stance, if possible. As a practical matter, it is not always possible when hitting on the run, moving in or laterally.
     
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  50. FiReFTW

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    Neutral is better for short balls that you step into the court, or very low bouncing balls tho, those types of balls are akward for open stances, but for the rest I agree.
     
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