Weighting up the Crossguard of my Sword

Villain

Professional
I feel like there’s got to be a more efficient way to get the effect you’re looking for. Possibly one with less drag?
 
Can we send a few of these abominations to Karatsev before his next match? If he wants to even think about getting Dimitrov’s critically acclaimed return of serve into play he needs to be swinging something heavier than that measly 330g 340sw polarized flyswatter.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Can we send a few of these abominations to Karatsev before his next match? If he wants to even think about getting Dimitrov’s critically acclaimed return of serve into play he needs to be swinging something heavier than that measly 330g 340sw polarized flyswatter.
I’d be curious to see what ‘Thor’ would do in his hands.
 

taylor15

Professional
I will say, all of your gorilla tape mods inspired me. I put 8gs of folded in half duct tape under the handle of one of my UTs last night. Ran out of lead, and needed my match sticks.

mine is a bit more, umm, discrete
 
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1HBHfanatic

Legend
I’ve decided to go back to a racquet setup that highlights my strengths.
-i guess its kind of practical!!???!!, genius even!! :laughing:
-who really wants the hassle to walk ,"all the way back to your tennis bag" when you gotta/must have gorilla tape for "on court emergency's"!!
-the tape is ready to use "on the spot"! :giggle::-Do_O
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I’ve decided to go back to a racquet setup that highlights my strengths.
I never understood the need to go around the racquet like that. But my lead stays on and I can but bunches in 1" wide strips that are 4 layers thick.

Don't you have to remove all that to restring or do you run the strings over the tape on the outside of the racquet?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I never understood the need to go around the racquet like that. But my lead stays on and I can but bunches in 1" wide strips that are 4 layers thick.

Don't you have to remove all that to restring or do you run the strings over the tape on the outside of the racquet?
The more of an eyesore it is, the more people will notice it and ask why on earth he would do such a thing, which allows him to talk about it at great length.

J
 

1HBHfanatic

Legend
I never understood the need to go around the racquet like that. But my lead stays on and I can but bunches in 1" wide strips that are 4 layers thick.

Don't you have to remove all that to restring or do you run the strings over the tape on the outside of the racquet?
-i agree, not ideal in my opinion, and/or for what i like,
-but it seems to works for @travlerajm ; he likes what he likes!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-sooooo, all i have to say is "play-on, playa!!" (y)

-i do recall doing similar temporary mods to the lead strips, a time or two, (when the sticky side wore out)

-i also have this racquet heavily modified,, but mine look way cleaner in comparison,,,, 2me!!
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Now that's just silly. You can just use multiple wristbands and discard them at each changeover!
well, no, because the weight of the cotton they use in those wristbands is too inconsistent so it was impossible to fine tune the setup..... Or make it repeatable. :)
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Most folks are unaware of all of the benefits of bulking up your quillons.

Perhaps the number one performance advantage is the effect on the impact response. It makes your frame behave crisper, more like a scalpel. If your game is heavily reliant on the slice and dice touch and placement game, like mine, you might benefit.

The extra mass also helps your volley and slice game by improving the dynamics leading up to impact. Punching forward with the hand forces the racquethead to come forward with the hand, generating solid momentum into your shot. Conversely, without this extra mass, a forward punch causes the racquethead to pivot backward in the wrong direction. Think of how Sampras volleys. Then think of how Roddick volleys. Compared to ARod, Pete has an extra 45g of bulk just above his handle that helps him to look more talented on the stabs and punches.

Here is me executing my forehand slice during a tournament match last summer (using a similarly weighted medieval style weapon).
 

HitMoreBHs

Semi-Pro
For a minute there, I thought the photo was you showing the tennis ball you’d stuffed into the throat area for extra mass falling out mid-shot; that led you to your current more robust solution.
 

Slowtwitcher

Hall of Fame
Most folks are unaware of all of the benefits of bulking up your quillons.

Perhaps the number one performance advantage is the effect on the impact response. It makes your frame behave crisper, more like a scalpel. If your game is heavily reliant on the slice and dice touch and placement game, like mine, you might benefit.

The extra mass also helps your volley and slice game by improving the dynamics leading up to impact. Punching forward with the hand forces the racquethead to come forward with the hand, generating solid momentum into your shot. Conversely, without this extra mass, a forward punch causes the racquethead to pivot backward in the wrong direction. Think of how Sampras volleys. Then think of how Roddick volleys. Compared to ARod, Pete has an extra 45g of bulk just above his handle that helps him to look more talented on the stabs and punches.

Here is me executing my forehand slice during a tournament match last summer (using a similarly weighted medieval style weapon).
WOW... that is nuts! Can't believe that chain link fence is not anodized!
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Most folks are unaware of all of the benefits of bulking up your quillons.

Perhaps the number one performance advantage is the effect on the impact response. It makes your frame behave crisper, more like a scalpel. If your game is heavily reliant on the slice and dice touch and placement game, like mine, you might benefit.

The extra mass also helps your volley and slice game by improving the dynamics leading up to impact. Punching forward with the hand forces the racquethead to come forward with the hand, generating solid momentum into your shot. Conversely, without this extra mass, a forward punch causes the racquethead to pivot backward in the wrong direction. Think of how Sampras volleys. Then think of how Roddick volleys. Compared to ARod, Pete has an extra 45g of bulk just above his handle that helps him to look more talented on the stabs and punches.

Here is me executing my forehand slice during a tournament match last summer (using a similarly weighted medieval style weapon).
I mean if that photo doesn't convince someone that adding pounds of weight is beneficial I do not know what will. Anyone can see how the strokes are improved. Granted, you have to _also_ visualize how were the strokes before, and imagine what the it would look in motion, and see where this ball is going, and have hundreds of such strokes ready for analysis to have some meaningful comparison data, and so on and on - but hey, the single photo is definitely enough for a trained eye.......... :)
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Most folks are unaware of all of the benefits of bulking up your quillons.

Perhaps the number one performance advantage is the effect on the impact response. It makes your frame behave crisper, more like a scalpel. If your game is heavily reliant on the slice and dice touch and placement game, like mine, you might benefit.

The extra mass also helps your volley and slice game by improving the dynamics leading up to impact. Punching forward with the hand forces the racquethead to come forward with the hand, generating solid momentum into your shot. Conversely, without this extra mass, a forward punch causes the racquethead to pivot backward in the wrong direction. Think of how Sampras volleys. Then think of how Roddick volleys. Compared to ARod, Pete has an extra 45g of bulk just above his handle that helps him to look more talented on the stabs and punches.

Here is me executing my forehand slice during a tournament match last summer (using a similarly weighted medieval style weapon).
While the above goes against any physics wrt behavior of an object when you add weight and increase inertia let's just gloss over it and _believe_.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
I mean if that photo doesn't convince someone that adding pounds of weight is beneficial I do not know what will. Anyone can see how the strokes are improved. Granted, you have to _also_ visualize how were the strokes before, and imagine what the it would look in motion, and see where this ball is going, and have hundreds of such strokes ready for analysis to have some meaningful comparison data, and so on and on - but hey, the single photo is definitely enough for a trained eye.......... :)
I know that I am dealing with exceptionally trained eyes here.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
While the above goes against any physics wrt behavior of an object when you add weight and increase inertia
I stand by my statement above. Try it yourself ... 1. take a light racquet, add mass to the head to get the swingweight up to about 370. Then add enough mass above the top of the handle to get the balance down close to 32cm. Then have your partner fire a few topspin rips at you, and you volley them back from at net, standing with deep net position so that you need to have good control. 2. Now peel off the extra 30g or whatever of weight from above the handle, and try taking volleys again.

Tell me what happens? I invite anyone to try this.
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I stand by my statement above. Try it yourself ... 1. take a light racquet, add mass to the head to get the swingweight up to about 370. Then add enough mass above the top of the handle to get the balance down close to 32cm. Then have your partner fire a few topspin rips at you, and you volley them back from at net, standing with deep net position so that you need to have good control. 2. Now peel off the extra 30g or whatever of weight from above the handle, and try taking volleys again.

Tell me what happens? I invite anyone to try this.
Man, I just hit the ball back.

J
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
I stand by my statement above. Try it yourself ... 1. take a light racquet, add mass to the head to get the swingweight up to about 370. Then add enough mass above the top of the handle to get the balance down close to 32cm. Then have your partner fire a few topspin rips at you, and you volley them back from at net, standing with deep net position so that you need to have good control. 2. Now peel off the extra 30g or whatever of weight from above the handle, and try taking volleys again.

Tell me what happens? I invite anyone to try this.
The problem with your proposal is that you are asking someone to describe the 'feeling'. Something that cannot be measured. I'm merely saying that _as far as established physics is concerned_ what you are stating is not correct.

Now - if you are saying that adding mass to your racket in various places makes you _think_ that your volley or any other stroke is better - who am I to argue. Nadal _thinks_ that having his water bottle labels facing certain direction is essential for his play too - but at least he is not trying to rationalize it via some pseudo-science.....
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
I’ve always added handle weight as close to the buttend as possible. Is it advantageous having it at the top of the handle?
1. Affects Impact Dynamics. Mass above handle has a stiffening effect - it effects the dynamic stiffness by reducing the amplitude of vibration for the primary bending mode, which in turn increases the vibration frequency (a quantifiable measure of dynamic stiffness). Adding mass at the butt has the opposite effect (reduces dynamic stiffness). An increased dynamic stiffness will enhance launch control on all shots, especially volleys and slices, shorten the dwell time, make the impact feel crisper. Because the frame flexes less at impact, the added mass at the top of the handle will also provide a stabilizing effect at contact.

2. Prevents Counterpivot Effect on Volleys. Adding weight to the handle allows you to ‘punch’ forward on the handle in order to volley without having to apply excessive torque at the wrist. The added handle mass reduces the torque needed to get the head moving forward prior to contact. Adding weight at the butt will actually assist with this counterpivot effect the most, but due to the reduced impact stiffness, weight at the butt can often be counterproductive to the overall objective of enhanced control. On the other hand, adding mass above the handle gives you almost as much of the counterpivot effect as adding to the butt, but you also get the compounding benefit of increased dynamic stiffness. So the location above the handle tends to be the most efficient for improving volley performance.

3. Increases Pendulum Acceleration. Adding weight above the top of the handle actually speeds up how fast a racquet ‘comes around’ during the forward part of the swing. This is more relevant during a rotational shot like a groundstroke than it is on a linear shot like a volley. The spot right above the top of the handle is most efficient for increasing pendulum acceleration. Ideally, the racquet’s pendulum acceleration can be tuned, to either match the pendulum acceleration of your arm (if using a fixed wrist technique) or to help maintain full wrist lag (if using a lag technique) in order to optimize control of the racquet face. Adding mass to the butt has minimal or no effect on pendulum acceleration about the wrist axis.
 

Slowtwitcher

Hall of Fame
The 2-3 times I've added weight above the handle I really hated it. I've always used bluetac and removed it after only a few minutes. YMMV.
 

HitMoreBHs

Semi-Pro
1. Affects Impact Dynamics. Mass above handle has a stiffening effect - it effects the dynamic stiffness by reducing the amplitude of vibration for the primary bending mode, which in turn increases the vibration frequency (a quantifiable measure of dynamic stiffness). Adding mass at the butt has the opposite effect (reduces dynamic stiffness). An increased dynamic stiffness will enhance launch control on all shots, especially volleys and slices, shorten the dwell time, make the impact feel crisper. Because the frame flexes less at impact, the added mass at the top of the handle will also provide a stabilizing effect at contact.

2. Prevents Counterpivot Effect on Volleys. Adding weight to the handle allows you to ‘punch’ forward on the handle in order to volley without having to apply excessive torque at the wrist. The added handle mass reduces the torque needed to get the head moving forward prior to contact. Adding weight at the butt will actually assist with this counterpivot effect the most, but due to the reduced impact stiffness, weight at the butt can often be counterproductive to the overall objective of enhanced control. On the other hand, adding mass above the handle gives you almost as much of the counterpivot effect as adding to the butt, but you also get the compounding benefit of increased dynamic stiffness. So the location above the handle tends to be the most efficient for improving volley performance.

3. Increases Pendulum Acceleration. Adding weight above the top of the handle actually speeds up how fast a racquet ‘comes around’ during the forward part of the swing. This is more relevant during a rotational shot like a groundstroke than it is on a linear shot like a volley. The spot right above the top of the handle is most efficient for increasing pendulum acceleration. Ideally, the racquet’s pendulum acceleration can be tuned, to either match the pendulum acceleration of your arm (if using a fixed wrist technique) or to help maintain full wrist lag (if using a lag technique) in order to optimize control of the racquet face. Adding mass to the butt has minimal or no effect on pendulum acceleration about the wrist axis.
Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a detailed explanation. I'll give tail-weighting at the top of the handle a go and see how it works vs my usual practice of buttend placement. In fact, you've got me thinking that I should try this with my golf clubs as well - I have 15-20g of tailweight at the buttend of the shafts which I found helps with clubhead acceleration during release through impact. Golf has the advantage of objective measurement of the outcome of such experiments due to launch monitor technology.

I might not subscribe wholesale to your concepts and ideas relating to racquet weighting, but they are always a most interesting and thought-provoking read. I've learned a lot from your posts, so grateful for that indeed. TTW is certainly a much richer place for your contributions!
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a detailed explanation. I'll give tail-weighting at the top of the handle a go and see how it works vs my usual practice of buttend placement. In fact, you've got me thinking that I should try this with my golf clubs as well - I have 15-20g of tailweight at the buttend of the shafts which I found helps with clubhead acceleration during release through impact. Golf has the advantage of objective measurement of the outcome of such experiments due to launch monitor technology.

I might not subscribe wholesale to your concepts and ideas relating to racquet weighting, but they are always a most interesting and thought-provoking read. I've learned a lot from your posts, so grateful for that indeed. TTW is certainly a much richer place for your contributions!
Put way more weight at the top of the handle than you think you need. Double it or triple it. Use some blutak and keep adding till its too much. When tuning by feel i would often end up between 20-30g.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
The problem with your proposal is that you are asking someone to describe the 'feeling'. Something that cannot be measured. I'm merely saying that _as far as established physics is concerned_ what you are stating is not correct.

Now - if you are saying that adding mass to your racket in various places makes you _think_ that your volley or any other stroke is better - who am I to argue. Nadal _thinks_ that having his water bottle labels facing certain direction is essential for his play too - but at least he is not trying to rationalize it via some pseudo-science.....
Why is it wrong? Why wouldnt a heavier racquet volley better?
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Why is it wrong? Why wouldnt a heavier racquet volley better?
I never said that a heavier racket wouldn't volley better. I do not know. I do not even know how to actually _measure_ if a given racket volleys better. It very well may be that a given player volleys better (whatever that means) with a heavier racket. However if it is so it is not because of this:
"
Punching forward with the hand forces the racquethead to come forward with the hand, generating solid momentum into your shot. Conversely, without this extra mass, a forward punch causes the racquethead to pivot backward in the wrong direction. Think of how Sampras volleys. Then think of how Roddick volleys. Compared to ARod, Pete has an extra 45g of bulk just above his handle that helps him to look more talented on the stabs and punches.
"
If you add weight to a racket above the point where you hold the racket you make the upper portion heavier. Which means it is harder to put in motion. When you push on a handle the upper part of the racket, because of added weight, 'wants' to stay in place due to inertia. That extra mass that will make the racquethead to pivot backward around the balance point more than it would have been the case without added weight (assuming all other aspects remained the same) - contrary to the above highlighted post. If you want to move the rackethead forward when you are 'punching forward with the hand' then you want the weight where the hand is, not above it. Consider orchestra director baton. The baton is made so the tip moves very easily and follows the movement of the hand. Where is the weight of the baton located (mostly) - at the very bottom, where the director holds it.
 

fundrazer

Legend
While the above goes against any physics wrt behavior of an object when you add weight and increase inertia let's just gloss over it and _believe_.
@J011yroger you referenced the movie the other day, and I was meaning to @ you with one of my favorite bits. Now is the time.

Well, perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist on travelerjam's racquet!

Were these magic grips?!
 

cyanide43

Rookie
I never said that a heavier racket wouldn't volley better. I do not know. I do not even know how to actually _measure_ if a given racket volleys better. It very well may be that a given player volleys better (whatever that means) with a heavier racket. However if it is so it is not because of this:
"
Punching forward with the hand forces the racquethead to come forward with the hand, generating solid momentum into your shot. Conversely, without this extra mass, a forward punch causes the racquethead to pivot backward in the wrong direction. Think of how Sampras volleys. Then think of how Roddick volleys. Compared to ARod, Pete has an extra 45g of bulk just above his handle that helps him to look more talented on the stabs and punches.
"
If you add weight to a racket above the point where you hold the racket you make the upper portion heavier. Which means it is harder to put in motion. When you push on a handle the upper part of the racket, because of added weight, 'wants' to stay in place due to inertia. That extra mass that will make the racquethead to pivot backward around the balance point more than it would have been the case without added weight (assuming all other aspects remained the same) - contrary to the above highlighted post. If you want to move the rackethead forward when you are 'punching forward with the hand' then you want the weight where the hand is, not above it. Consider orchestra director baton. The baton is made so the tip moves very easily and follows the movement of the hand. Where is the weight of the baton located (mostly) - at the very bottom, where the director holds it.
I don't fully understand the physics, but I encourage you to actually try comparing racquets with the usage of proper tools to take the measurements (RDC, balance board, scale). I've played a decent level of tennis (Div1), so I am well attuned to feeling and understanding the differences. Try two frames;

One with

335sw, 32bal, 335g

and another with

325sw, 32bal, 335g

Given the same hand position, they do not swing the same. The 335sw frame swings slower. However, if you match pendulum acceleration, they come around exactly the same.

Before testing these concepts, I could not understand why my forehand always felt immediately "off" when raising swingweight, despite retaining balance.
 
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