What’s wrong with the string job!!?

[Rudi Bergner]

Hi,

I’ve been with arm problems due to a bad string job that I can’t figure why.
My stringer strings like 200/300 Rackets a mounth, for national athletes mainly, but in the past few months I feel that it makes a lot of pressure in my arm, the strings feel dead and like a thick rock wall. ( some metaphors I could think of )
Apparently I’m the only one who’s complaining.

After a few hours hitting, the strings start move and it feels like the vibrations don’t flow even through the racket. It hits the arm and you don’t feel the ball, impossible to have that Good feeling while hiting.


recently I tried my old stringer, and it feels alot softer, and my arm handles it well.

anyone has an ideia of what’s happening? If you want more information Ican tell you probably.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

After all this time asking him to change strings, change tensions... the string bed feels the same. Dull... can the polys somehow go dead before they even get stringed?
Is there an expiration date?
Sounds unlikely but I really can’t understand what’s happening.

 

[jonestim]

What string, gauge, tension and what racquet?

 

[Rudi Bergner]

any racket and string I would say.
since then I changed racket because it was old and I thought it was the cause, it always a Dunlop force 98, really cool, with hyper g 24kilograms tension.
Then I started to play with a Dunlop biomimetic f3.0 that a friend gave to me, it felt softer but ended up to be the same.

now I’m using brand new yonex ezone 98 (305g) from 2018.

tried with hyper g, still the ****ty feeling and killing my arm.

Then I tried black code with my old stringer tension 22mains / 21cross and it felt really nice.

gave the same recipe to my actualstringer from where the problem is recurrent and it’sso uncomfortable again, I canT feel the ball penetrating the string bed, there is no stability hiting the ball, strings move within 4 hours of play and my arm is killing me once again!!!!

 

[Rudi Bergner]

What string, gauge, tension and what racquet?

Answered above

 

[Rudi Bergner]

What string, gauge, tension and what racquet?

Gauge is 1.25

 

[esgee48]

I am going to ask you a few questions. Feel free to not answer, but that will only hinder the diagnosis.
[1] If you like the string jobs from your old stringer, why did you change to a new stringer?
[2] What type of stringing machine did the old stringer use? And what type of stringing machine does the new stringer use?
[3] Would you consider using a thicker gauge string like 16 - 1.3 mm or 15L - 1.35 mm or changing to a synthetic gut or multifibre?

 

[Rudi Bergner]

I am going to ask you a few questions. Feel free to not answer, but that will only hinder the diagnosis.
[1] If you like the string jobs from your old stringer, why did you change to a new stringer?
[2] What type of stringing machine did the old stringer use? And what type of stringing machine does the new stringer use?
[3] Would you consider using a thicker gauge string like 16 - 1.3 mm or 15L - 1.35 mm or changing to a synthetic gut or multifibre?

My old stringer lives near where I used to train a few years ago.
My actual stringer is also my coach, and one thing led to another since I train regularly with him, and this problem is new, it has 6 months. I’ve been training with him For 4/5 years now and the string job was always good.
I stringed with my old stringer Because with the pandemic I train at my old place.hoping to clear my head from this problem I went to him.

they both have top notch Wilson machines.
Both baiardos I guess.

my stringer sometimes tells me he has a problem with some plastic clamps os something. Some plastic pieces that holds the string to apply tension.
But no one else is reporting issues.
And my old stringer isn’t cheap.

I used to play with 16G all my life but I started to play with a thinner gauge when I started to train the double that i used to. It feels lighter and more comfortable.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

My old stringer lives near where I used to train a few years ago.
My actual stringer is also my coach, and one thing led to another since I train regularly with him, and this problem is new, it has 6 months. I’ve been training with him For 4/5 years now and the string job was always good.
I stringed with my old stringer Because with the pandemic I train at my old place.hoping to clear my head from this problem I went to him.

they both have top notch Wilson machines.
Both baiardos I guess.

my stringer sometimes tells me he has a problem with some plastic clamps os something. Some plastic pieces that holds the string to apply tension.
But no one else is reporting issues.
And my old stringer isn’t cheap.

I used to play with 16G all my life but I started to play with a thinner gauge when I started to train the double that i used to. It feels lighter and more comfortable.

Maybe he’s pre stretching the strings more than he should?
I’m just guessing out here, can it be exprired strings ? Hardly XD....
It feels there are different tension through out the stringbed. But the thing is I’m the only one who does feel there’s something wrong. Maybe the other guys arms are healthier iet.... and they don’t have much sensibility. And they break it in 4/5 hours hiting, I break it maybe in 7/9 hours hiting, but my arm tells the difference before it breaks

 

[esgee48]

Both have Baiardo machines. That does not mean anything since 2 different people using the same machine can produce different results. That's because they have different timing for pulling/clamping etc. If your old stringer clamps within a 1-2 seconds and your current stringer waits 10 seconds, the DT [dynamic tension] will be tighter with the longer wait. [I was initially thinking that your old stringer was using a LO vs eCP with the current stringer.} There is also the issue with calibration since we do not know when the machines were last calibrated or checked. Baiardo's are suppose to self check when turned on IIRC so this may not be a problem. But the tension pulled may still be off by ± 1 Kg. The other issue is going from 16 Ga to 17 Ga. Your DT automatically goes up when you changed gauges. To have the same DT with the type of change you made generally means decreasing ref tension by 1-2 Kg. Range is based on frame and string pattern.

Any experienced stringer would advise you to start with the same ref tension when changing machine or stringer. Then you make changes to ref tension based on that 1st string job. If needed, you make more changes based on the 2nd string job. This really sounds like the ref tension you continue to use is too tight. When using your old stringer, you have found that sweet spot combination with 16 Ga and perhaps 17 Ga. With the current stringer and 17 Ga, you are not there yet. Continue to drop tension until it feels comfortable 'off the machine.'

One other thing to mention. Polyester strings go dead before they break. When you lose control or your shots, strings stay out of place, arm hurts, etc is an indication that the characteristics of the string is no longer in that 'sweet spot.' Means it is time to restring. Finally, this question should have been posted in the Stringing Machines/Techniques Forum. Most of the real 'gearheads' hang out there and would have answered the same way.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

Both have Baiardo machines. That does not mean anything since 2 different people using the same machine can produce different results. That's because they have different timing for pulling/clamping etc. If your old stringer clamps within a 1-2 seconds and your current stringer waits 10 seconds, the DT [dynamic tension] will be tighter with the longer wait. [I was initially thinking that your old stringer was using a LO vs eCP with the current stringer.} There is also the issue with calibration since we do not know when the machines were last calibrated or checked. Baiardo's are suppose to self check when turned on IIRC so this may not be a problem. But the tension pulled may still be off by ± 1 Kg. The other issue is going from 16 Ga to 17 Ga. Your DT automatically goes up when you changed gauges. To have the same DT with the type of change you made generally means decreasing ref tension by 1-2 Kg. Range is based on frame and string pattern.

Any experienced stringer would advise you to start with the same ref tension when changing machine or stringer. Then you make changes to ref tension based on that 1st string job. If needed, you make more changes based on the 2nd string job. This really sounds like the ref tension you continue to use is too tight. When using your old stringer, you have found that sweet spot combination with 16 Ga and perhaps 17 Ga. With the current stringer and 17 Ga, you are not there yet. Continue to drop tension until it feels comfortable 'off the machine.'

One other thing to mention. Polyester strings go dead before they break. When you lose control or your shots, strings stay out of place, arm hurts, etc is an indication that the characteristics of the string is no longer in that 'sweet spot.' Means it is time to restring. Finally, this question should have been posted in the Stringing Machines/Techniques Forum. Most of the real 'gearheads' hang out there and would have answered the same way.

Thank you. I’m new eheh I thought it was here.
That last part yes! I know how strong feels when they are dead and that’s what’s happening with the new string job. I’ll hit 30 minutes or so and they start to feel dead. It’s really strange.

the rest is pro stringer language I can’t fully understand it. I’ll talk to him.

 

[Muppet]

I think you'll have to have your racquets done by your old stringer at your old tension or your new stringer at a new, undetermined tension. Better yet, have all of your racquets done by your coach all the time and figure out what your new tension is (trial and error).

Something that could be happening is if your old stringer has his Biardo set on lock-out mode. Lock-outs string about 5 lbs. looser. People with lock-out machines know to set the tension higher.

 

[esgee48]

Using a Baiardo in LO mode? That is like driving a BMW M3 in rush hour freeway traffic. You never get out of 1st or 2nd gear.

 

[Muppet]

Using a Baiardo in LO mode? That is like driving a BMW M3 in rush hour freeway traffic. You never get out of 1st or 2nd gear.

My WISE 2086 can be set in CP or LO. I personally haven't used the LO mode. A stringing professional I used to go to had a Prince Neos. He did a nice job on my full multi beds.

 

[Arak]

To my simple mind, the first thing to consider is your arm. Is it possible that you have developed an issue that is making your arm more sensitive? Whatever the cause may be, arm or stringer, obviously lowering the tension until it feels comfortable again seems like the most reasonable solution.

 

[Tennease]

It could be that you are using polyester string, strung at relatively high tension. With high tension polyester string, you won't feel the ball well. It will feel harsh on your arm and you won't get the nice cushioning and pockety feeling. The whole stringbed will feel hard and you can hardly find a nice sweetspot. Also, if your racquet is relatively light, it will contribute more to your arm pain problem.

I'm using a relatively heavy racquet (but still playable) which I have modified by adding extra weight under the head guard (like Federer). I found the extra weight and heftiness of the racquet and the soft string I use, add extra sweet spot to the racquet bed and also make the racquet more comfortable to use for my arm (easy power and less vibration --- the heftiness of the racquet really reduce vibration).

Try to use softer string like synthetic gut or multifilament or natural gut. Also, try not to string it at high tension. It will feel better for your arm.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

Thanks for the reply’s guys.
But there’s an important information that I tried to explain:

Ive been working with 2 stringers recently. One is the same for 4 years now, and where the problem is coming from. The other is my old one.

I’ve asked them to string the same string in the same racket with the same tension and with my current stringer the problem keeps happening no matter what string or tension.
The racket that I gave to the old stringer was excellent.

that’s how I confirmed that the problem isn’t my arm but something that is going wrong with the stringings.
I’ve been suffering from this since last year.
Recently tried the same recipe with my old stringer and my arm was getting better until I went again to my actual stringer.

so, thr problem of the strings is that they feel dull from The beginning no matter what tension, after 4 hours of hitting, the strings start to open and Don’t return to the middle, giving no SnapBack and letting the vibration going To my arm. They just feel dead.
It feels like there are different tensions through out the string job.

the problem isn’t my arm. It’s the stringjob.
I’m just trying to understand what could be the cause.
Some told me that The machine clamps are slippery.
(Baiardo) Can this be the cause for this significant change to the stringbed?

thank you very much for all your feedback
Cheers

 

[esgee48]

Ask your old stringer whether he machine prestretches and if it is in CP mode. If yes, what %. Go back to your current stringer and tell him to string CP mode at 2 Kg lower than old ref tension using the same % prestretch, if any. Hit with the racquet. If it is still too tight, restring dropping ref tension another 2 Kg. Repeat.

If clamps are slipping, not gripping tensioned string, your string job will very volatile. Tension will be really lower than ref tension since mm's really matter on stiff polyester strings. You could politely ask if he cleans his clamps periodically. Do not be surprised if he gets mad at you for this question.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

(Can’t delete sorry)

 

[Rudi Bergner]

Ask your old stringer whether he machine prestretches and if it is in CP mode. If yes, what %. Go back to your current stringer and tell him to string CP mode at 2 Kg lower than old ref tension using the same % prestretch, if any. Hit with the racquet. If it is still too tight, restring dropping ref tension another 2 Kg. Repeat.

If clamps are slipping, not gripping tensioned string, your string job will very volatile. Tension will be really lower than ref tension since mm's really matter on stiff polyester strings. You could politely ask if he cleans his clamps periodically. Do not be surprised if he gets mad at you for this question.

I know... that’s my issue. He’s my coach and stringer and I don’t want him to think that I’m telling him what to do.
It’s really strange because I’ve asked 24 kg tension, than 23, and now 21... and the dull feeling is always there. It’s not due to tension. It as to be something else.
I’ll talk to him more technically.

 

[Shroud]

I know... that’s my issue. He’s my coach and stringer and I don’t want him to think that I’m telling him what to do.
It’s really strange because I’ve asked 24 kg tension, than 23, and now 21... and the dull feeling is always there. It’s not due to tension. It as to be something else.
I’ll talk to him more technically.

dull feeling cause 2 things to come to mind, maybe 3.

1. The strings have issues. Maybe he got a "deal" and has some fake strings or something
2. Prestretch setting is on by mistake or purpose on the machine
3. Old stringer has different setting on machine and or different string.

Can you buy some string and have each string it. that would remove any doubt about their respective stocks if you supply the string.

Don't worry about telling him what to do. I bet he doesn't want you to hurt yourself. One way is to present him with the facts...a recent change has the strings feeling dead. How can he explain that? Has he changed anything? Is he letting someone else string for him? Has he had his machine tested to make sure its pulling accurate tensions? etc. Ask him to explain how things were great for 4 years and now your arm is hurting.

 

[Simplicius]

.
I believe that your later stringer prestretches your strings... The old one not.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

.
I believe that your later stringer prestretches your strings... The old one not.

He said he doesn’t.
But He told me he has a problem with slippery clamps... he pulls at 100% if I got it right... regarding CP?? (I can’t be sure of this)

Maybe it would help pulling at lower percentage and make a good cleaning on the clamps.
More people are reporting sudden loss of tension apparently.

 

[esgee48]

If your old stringer has or had slipping clamps, there is only one way to be sure. Have him clean the clamps before restringing your frame. Make sure you know all the on/off settings he may have on the machine. When he strings, he ensures that there is no slippage because if it is slipping, you are not getting ref tension. NOT EVEN CLOSE. If the stringbed now hurts, his clamps were slipping.

This long distance remote trouble shooting is hard. I still say decrease ref tension with the current stringer/coach. You want to use your current stringer going forward. So find the right tension. You already dropped it 3 Kg. Drop it another 2 Kg incrementally until it feels right. With polyester strings you can go really low and still have a playable stringbed, i.e. 40# or 18 Kg. FWIW, use the same string, cheap if possible, while trying to find the 'good' tension.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

If your old stringer has or had slipping clamps, there is only one way to be sure. Have him clean the clamps before restringing your frame. Make sure you know all the on/off settings he may have on the machine. When he strings, he ensures that there is no slippage because if it is slipping, you are not getting ref tension. NOT EVEN CLOSE. If the stringbed now hurts, his clamps were slipping. This long distance remote trouble shooting is hard. I still say decrease ref tension with the current stringer/coach. You already dropped it 3 Kg. Drop it another 2 Kg incrementally until it feels right. With polyester strings you can go really low and still have a playable stringbed, i.e. 40# or 18 Kg. FWIW, use the same string, cheap if possible, while trying to find the 'good' tension.

Thank you for your advice.
Yes apparently the clamps are used out!! As he says, the grabbing surface of the clamps is worn out.
The pull speed is at 100%.

Would it help to lower the pulling speed?

So let me see if I get it.
You re saying that if I continue Toulouse the tension I will be close to a reference tension, and, in this case that the clamps are slippery, maybe it would help lowering the tension because maybe will be less slippery no?
Less tension = less pulling. I guess it makes sense or will it continue to slip?
He will have to change the clamps but until he does... less tension would help?

 

[esgee48]

If the surfaces of the clamps are worn out, they will slip. Problem is knowing how much tension is lost when they do slip. This is the problem. He pulls 24 Kg. Clamps. String tension slips to what? No one knows as he is pulling tension on the next string. Because of the 'Capstan effect' he will not recover the loss tension from the slipping clamp. Is it tension dependent or time dependent? Pulling slower probably is not going to work. Using a lower ref tension may, but that won't help you with your current stringer. When your old stringer changes out/replaces the clamps, you will suddenly experience a much tighter string bed. So you work with the old stringer to find that 'good' tension. That is nice of you, but you still need to work with the new stringer, your current one, to find that 'good' tension.

 

[gdeangel]

At the risk of suggesting the obvious, for ~$20 the OP can get a tensionmeter as a way to roughly check whether the racquet he is getting back from both guys strung at the same settings on same machines... is in fact at the same tensions. On the mains at least. And if the coach is a nice guy, he might even just bring his own stringmeter to a lesson, and let the OP check both racquets, no cost to the OP. If it's a question of injury and pain, ~$20 is aprox. the cost of one can of Biofreeze... or a quarter-session with a physiologist.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

If the surfaces of the clamps are worn out, they will slip. Problem is knowing how much tension is lost when they do slip. This is the problem. He pulls 24 Kg. Clamps. String tension slips to what? No one knows as he is pulling tension on the next string. Because of the 'Capstan effect' he will not recover the loss tension from the slipping clamp. Is it tension dependent or time dependent? Pulling slower probably is not going to work. Using a lower ref tension may, but that won't help you with your current stringer. When your old stringer changes out/replaces the clamps, you will suddenly experience a much tighter string bed. So you work with the old stringer to find that 'good' tension. That is nice of you, but you still need to work with the new stringer, your current one, to find that 'good' tension.

Makes sense!
Thank you.

So the problem will not go away until the clamps are replaced.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

At the risk of suggesting the obvious, for ~$20 the OP can get a tensionmeter as a way to roughly check whether the racquet he is getting back from both guys strung at the same settings on same machines... is in fact at the same tensions. On the mains at least. And if the coach is a nice guy, he might even just bring his own stringmeter to a lesson, and let the OP check both racquets, no cost to the OP. If it's a question of injury and pain, ~$20 is aprox. the cost of one can of Biofreeze... or a quarter-session with a physiologist.

Sorry what’s OP?

Yes you are right. We talked more seriously and there is really a problem with the clamps.
Would be interesting checking the tension of both!!

 

[Firepandas]

Sorry what’s OP?

Yes you are right. We talked more seriously and there is really a problem with the clamps.
Would be interesting checking the tension of both!!

OP mean "original poster", aka you.

 

[FIRETennis]

I've had the same issues by stringing at multiple shops so I ended up learning to string on my own.
There was only one pro shop that did a proper job with their Wilson Baiardo.
I ping all the string jobs with RacquetTune to see string bed tension after stringing and 24h after.

Basically with stringing there are a few ways where the stringers can cut corners:
- not clamping close enough to the frame
- dirty clamps that slip (especially for shops that do a lot of RPM Blast or other silicone based strings like PolyTour Fire)
- clamps that are too loose
- ripping the crosses across the mains (doesn't cause tension loss but damages strings)
- going for lunch or a 20' phone call after stringing part of the frame
- not tightening knots properly

Lockout vs. Constant Pull / Drop Weight is an issue too with the requested tension vs. actual tension received.
If you ask for 25kg on a lockout, with good technique and no cut corners, you'll probably end up with 23kg with poly after 24h.
On a constant pull that might end up at 24-24.5kg after 24h, with good technique.
Add some of that corner cutting and you might lose another 2-3kg easily, esp. on the lockout.

 

[Wheelz]

What would be corner cutting? So I don't that...

I've had the same issues by stringing at multiple shops so I ended up learning to string on my own.
There was only one pro shop that did a proper job with their Wilson Baiardo.
I ping all the string jobs with RacquetTune to see string bed tension after stringing and 24h after.

Basically with stringing there are a few ways where the stringers can cut corners:
- not clamping close enough to the frame
- dirty clamps that slip (especially for shops that do a lot of RPM Blast or other silicone based strings like PolyTour Fire)
- clamps that are too loose
- ripping the crosses across the mains (doesn't cause tension loss but damages strings)
- going for lunch or a 20' phone call after stringing part of the frame
- not tightening knots properly

Lockout vs. Constant Pull / Drop Weight is an issue too with the requested tension vs. actual tension received.
If you ask for 25kg on a lockout, with good technique and no cut corners, you'll probably end up with 23kg with poly after 24h.
On a constant pull that might end up at 24-24.5kg after 24h, with good technique.
Add some of that corner cutting and you might lose another 2-3kg easily, esp. on the lockout.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

If the surfaces of the clamps are worn out, they will slip. Problem is knowing how much tension is lost when they do slip. This is the problem. He pulls 24 Kg. Clamps. String tension slips to what? No one knows as he is pulling tension on the next string. Because of the 'Capstan effect' he will not recover the loss tension from the slipping clamp. Is it tension dependent or time dependent? Pulling slower probably is not going to work. Using a lower ref tension may, but that won't help you with your current stringer. When your old stringer changes out/replaces the clamps, you will suddenly experience a much tighter string bed. So you work with the old stringer to find that 'good' tension. That is nice of you, but you still need to work with the new stringer, your current one, to find that 'good' tension.

What is the diabolo?
Can’t find information here... :/
My current stringer made me a racket without the diabolo and it turned out great!
No more pain and dull feeling.
What is the diabolo function?
Thanks

 

[Muppet]

What is the diabolo?
Can’t find information here... :/
My current stringer made me a racket without the diabolo and it turned out great!
No more pain and dull feeling.
What is the diabolo function?
Thanks

A diablo is a wheel on the tensioner that guides the string into the gripper. It brings the string to the right height for the gripper. It's a part on the tensioner that helps the tensioner last longer and gives your string beds a little better consistency. I'm glad you're getting better results with your stringer/coach.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

A diablo is a wheel on the tensioner that guides the string into the gripper. It brings the string to the right height for the gripper. It's a part on the tensioner that helps the tensioner last longer and gives your string beds a little better consistency. I'm glad you're getting better results with your stringer/coach.

It helps to support the tension on the clamps or something like that right. Ok
Ironically without the diabolo, the stringbed is much more consistent.

 

[Injured Again]

It helps to support the tension on the clamps or something like that right. Ok
Ironically without the diabolo, the stringbed is much more consistent.

That's not the case. By not using the diablo, the string enters the tensioner at various angles, and the actual tension that gets pulled will vary depending on that angle. This is a case where correlation is not causation, and there is some other reason the stringbed feels good for you this time around.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

That's not the case. By not using the diablo, the string enters the tensioner at various angles, and the actual tension that gets pulled will vary depending on that angle. This is a case where correlation is not causation, and there is some other reason the stringbed feels good for you this time around.

Yes I believe there are other factors of course eheh.
If the problem I firstly related was because of the slippery clamps, and he was using the diabolo, when I felt a dull stringbed.
It’s strange how this time without the diabolo, (That should Reduce the probability of the string to slip) the stringbed feels normal, lively and not dull.

 

[Injured Again]

Yes I believe there are other factors of course eheh.
If the problem I firstly related was because of the slippery clamps, and he was using the diabolo, when I felt a dull stringbed.
It’s strange how this time without the diabolo, (That should Reduce the probability of the string to slip) the stringbed feels normal, lively and not dull.

The diablo makes it less likely the string will slip in **the tensioner**. It doesn't have any significant effect on whether the string slips or not in the clamps.

 

[Rudi Bergner]

The diablo makes it less likely the string will slip in **the tensioner**. It doesn't have any significant effect on whether the string slips or not in the clamps.

Hmmm ok... it’s not that simple I see.
But it’s not bad not to use it right?

Do you have any idea for the dull stringbed? Besides slippery clamps?

 

[Injured Again]

Hmmm ok... it’s not that simple I see.
But it’s not bad not to use it right?

Do you have any idea for the dull stringbed? Besides slippery clamps?

No, I don't have any idea what could be happening. I've been stringing for a long time and have never seen major changes like you've described, unless someone changes either string type/gauge or tension, or changes both.

 

[Muppet]

Hmmm ok... it’s not that simple I see.
But it’s not bad not to use it right?

Do you have any idea for the dull stringbed? Besides slippery clamps?

Here's a shot in the dark. If he places the string in the gripper very consistently every time, perhaps he wore out part of the gripper, while using the diablo. Then without the diablo maybe he's getting a lot more friction on the string from another part of the gripper jaws. And maybe he needs to clean his gripper.